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Episode 104: Hannibal's horns
Published 4th October, 2024
Ella Hubber, Caroline Roper and Tom Lum face questions about creative credits, baffling borders and racing research.
HOST: Tom Scott. QUESTION PRODUCER: David Bodycombe. EDITED BY: Julie Hassett at The Podcast Studios, Dublin. MUSIC: Karl-Ola Kjellholm ('Private Detective'/'Agrumes', courtesy of epidemicsound.com). ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS: Jabberblock, Owen R., Scott Mitchell, Paul Thorp. FORMAT: Pad 26 Limited/Labyrinth Games Ltd. EXECUTIVE PRODUCERS: David Bodycombe and Tom Scott.
Transcript
Transcription by Caption+
Tom Scott:
How is Frozen the opposite of Gravity?
The answer to that at the end of the show. My name's Tom Scott, and this is Lateral.
Hello and welcome to another episode of Lateral. Today, we welcome back three people who are experts at calmly and methodically working their way towards the right answer.
Ella:
Hah.
Caroline:
Wow, okay.
Tom Lum:
That might have been a mix up.
Tom Scott:
Yeah, sorry, that's... That's next week's script, so... (crumbles paper)
SFX:
(guests laugh uproariously)
Tom Scott:
Hello and welcome to another episode of Lateral.
Today, it's another 40 minutes of chaos with Let's Learn Everything. Welcome back to the show!
SFX:
(guests cheering)
Ella:
Yeah!
Caroline:
Woo!
Tom Lum:
(laughs)
Caroline:
Chaos! Chaos!
Tom Scott:
My producer has simply put the note here, "Introduce the guests. It'll be the usual shambles."
So please welcome the usual shambles, starting...
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Tom Scott:
Caroline Roper, how are you doing?
Caroline:
Oh my goodness! Well, a little bit offended, actually, right now.
SFX:
(both Toms laugh)
Caroline:
But, you know, I'll take it.
Tom Scott:
It's always a fine line, writing a script that has to welcome the guests, but also, apparently slightly roast them. I didn't— I didn't write that, is all I'm saying.
Caroline:
What's this all about? Yeah! (laughs)
Tom Lum:
There's something very sweet about the usual shambles.
Tom Scott:
I mean, it's really nice to have a team of three people who bounce off each other really well. There is a reason we keep inviting you back. It is lovely to have you back on the show.
You should, as ever, plug Let's Learn Everything. Let's go with Tom.
Tom Lum:
Yeah, it's a show where we learn about anything and everything interesting.
We've had Tom Scott on. We've also had another Lateral guest. We've had Hank Green on.
So if you want to hear more of them, you can hear them. If you want to hear more of us, though, we're on the other episodes as well. Yeah.
Tom Scott:
And finally, rounding out the trio, Ella, where can people find the show?
Ella:
letslearneverything.com.
We also have episodes without guests where we just talk about science and other miscellaneous topics.
It's wonderful, and it's chaotic. As you would expect from us.
Tom Scott:
Well, Caroline Roper, Tom Lum, Ella Hubber, welcome back to the show.
Before we start, I do just have to do my usual pre-show routine for when you three are on.
(breathes deeply)
Remember, Tom, you're in charge. You're in charge.
SFX:
(guests laugh uproariously)
Tom Scott:
You're in charge. (sighs)
Alright! I'm back with you. Let's do this.
Just by watching the movie, how can you tell whether the writers on a Hollywood film collaborated as a team or worked separately?
I'll say that one more time.
Just by watching the movie, how can you tell whether the writers on a Hollywood film collaborated as a team or worked separately?
Caroline:
I mean, if you walk out of the film and go, "Huh, the writing there was really weird. I wonder why." I might then be thinking, maybe they didn't work together. (laughs)
Tom Lum:
But it's interesting you say, it's not a specific movie. This is sort of more general than that, it seems like.
Tom Scott:
Yeah.
Tom Lum:
But just by watching the—
Ella:
Slang? People using different slang? The same characters—
Caroline:
Or even just the language in general. Yeah.
Ella:
Yeah, the same character, using the same words differently, the same...
Tom Lum:
Does the technicality count in, do the credits count as part of the movies?
Tom Scott:
Yes, they do.
Tom Lum:
Okay, that makes more sense. (laughs) Now...
Tom Scott:
Does it? (chuckles)
Ella:
Oh, are you trying to say that, in the credits, it will say if there—
It will be like a something and someone, or they'll have separate title screens in the credits? Is that what you're thinking there?
Tom Lum:
Yeah. Because I know— I don't know if it's this one.
I know there is a distinction between "story by" and "written by" in credits. The wording there is very specific about whether you just came up with— I forget the specific one, but it's like, one of them is like you came up with just the idea, or versus actually writing it versus...
So I don't know if there's a secret code word that's a Hollywood lingo that means they worked separately.
Ella:
Is it an ampersand or an 'and'?
Tom Lum:
Oh, Ella!
Tom Scott:
Yes, it is. Yes, it's exactly that.
Tom Lum:
Ella, slam dunk!
Caroline:
Oh my goodness, wow!
Ella:
Yes!
Caroline:
What?!
Tom Lum:
Bump set spike, baby!
Tom Scott:
I was going to go into a rabbit hole about 'story' and 'teleplay' and all the words and union rules and everything like that.
But that would have been a distraction, because you're absolutely right.
Caroline:
Wow!
Tom Scott:
It is whether 'and' or an ampersand is used in the credit.
SFX:
(Caroline and Ella gasp)
Tom Lum:
Slam dunk.
Tom Scott:
If it's credited to "Alice & Bob", then they were a writing team, they worked together.
If it is "Alice and – A-N-D – Bob", then they worked separately. Most likely one of them rewrote the other's work, and there's some kind of union contractual dispute.
You can occasionally see both in the same credits.
Caroline:
Oh?
Tom Scott:
Particularly for TV shows, where they've got a big writing team. You will sometimes see "story by A & B and C".
Tom Lum:
Oh, cool!
Tom Scott:
Because the team worked on it, and then the individual rewrote it.
Tom Lum:
Wow.
Tom Scott:
And at some point... the union will come in, in Hollywood and go, "Alright, they get credit, they get credit, they don't get credit anymore." They did not provide enough in this script to actually get the line.
Tom Lum:
We should make that a little clearer, I think.
Ella:
I'm gonna look into that now. I'm gonna be... I'll have my eyes on that every time I watch something.
Tom Scott:
We will rattle straight on to the next question. Ella, I'll hand it over to you.
Ella:
This question has been sent in by Jabberblock.
A set of US community groups found banks costly to maintain and harder to find. To improve access, in recent decades they have adapted their activity to use flat rooms instead. Which activity?
Tom Lum:
Flat rooms?
Ella:
I'll say that again.
A set of US community groups found banks costly to maintain and harder to find. To improve access, in recent decades they have adapted their activity to use flat rooms instead. Which activity?
Tom Lum:
Harder to find. Every word of this is...
Caroline:
I'm confused at every level. Okay.
Ella:
Mm.
Tom Scott:
Just to be clear, you said banks and flat rooms.
Ella:
Yeah.
Caroline:
Is it banks, as in financial banks, or banks as in... bank staff, or something like that?
Tom Scott:
Riverbanks.
Tom Lum:
Yeah.
Caroline:
Mm, mhm.
Ella:
Would I be giving too much away to say that straight out of the gate?
Tom Lum:
Oh, okay.
Caroline:
You're gonna make us work for that? Okay.
Tom Lum:
Using flat rooms. Well, sorry, they— What was it, harder to find? And what was the other problem?
Ella:
Costly to maintain.
Tom Lum:
Okay, so that costly made me initially think financial banks, but maybe it's...
Caroline:
Mm.
Ella:
I mean, are financial banks that hard to find?
Caroline:
That was my thinking, was, no. Surely they're on Google Maps, and you can just go to them, but—
Tom Lum:
Flat rooms is so funny. What does that—
Caroline:
Is flat rooms like a room in a block of flats? Or is it a flat-pack room?
Tom Lum:
I assume not.
Ella:
No, no.
Caroline:
I assumed not.
Tom Scott:
Oh, not in the US, 'cause they'd be apartments over there.
Caroline:
Oh, of course, yeah.
Tom Lum:
So a room that is flat. Every part of this is a puzzle here.
Caroline:
What's a flat room?
Tom Lum:
As opposed to a round room? Yeah, what is...
Caroline:
(laughs)
Tom Lum:
Is the— Now part of me is wondering, is the room, you know... a "chamber" of a "gun"? A "room of a something" that would be not a room?
Caroline:
Ohh.
Tom Lum:
When is a room not a room?
Ella:
(wheezes)
Tom Scott:
(chuckles)
Ella:
These are rooms.
SFX:
(Ella and Tom Lum crack up)
Caroline:
Is it rooms in real life? Or is it rooms in a digital sphere? Or something like that?
Ella:
Oh, interesting. No, it's in real life.
Tom Lum:
And by Ella's cageyness, I assume we all think it's not financial banks at this point.
Caroline:
It must be, yeah.
Ella:
I can confirm it is not a financial bank.
Tom Lum:
Okay.
Tom Scott:
Riverbanks.
Tom Lum:
Yeah, hard... Because they're harder to find, so you need to...
Tom Scott:
Banking on...
Ella:
Tom just started to do— Tom Scott just started to do something a little bit with his...
Tom Scott:
I'm thinking banking on a track of some kind.
Tom Lum:
Yeah.
Caroline:
Yeah.
Tom Scott:
Because the alternative to a bank is flat.
Tom Lum:
Right, right.
Caroline:
Is it—
Tom Scott:
Like on a racetrack or on some...
Caroline:
Yeah.
Tom Lum:
Oh my god— Okay, wait, wait. Now I'm realizing... 'Cause Ella said "US community group", and I'm realizing that's going to be something, isn't it? It could've— Oh, because if it is like, you know, like NASCAR fans or something. That would def— That's— I would— I guess you could call that... That would be under the Wikipedia group of "US community groups", right?
Ella:
Well, I mean you're getting closer in the sense that this is a high-speed activity.
Tom Lum:
Okay!
Caroline:
Oh! Interesting!
Tom Scott:
Velodromes. Cycling.
Tom Lum:
Oh yeah, biking.
Tom Scott:
Has banked corners.
Tom Lum:
They sure do.
Tom Scott:
But I don't know why you'd use flat rooms instead. Ice skating, ice hockey. Something that involves speeding 'round a course that's banked.
Ella:
It is speeding 'round a course. I can tell you that.
Tom Lum:
My thought was, what if you could... You had a flat room, but the room itself could rotate, so it's like a simulator ride? And then that would help. And Ella's laughing because it's spot on. Because then that would make it easier to maintain.
Tom Scott:
Roller derby.
Ella:
Yeah, Tom Scott. You've got it.
Tom Scott:
It's roller derby.
Ella:
It's roller derby, it's roller derby.
Tom Scott:
Because there aren't many roller rinks anymore. There certainly aren't roller rinks with banked corners. So, they don't have to use a roller rink at all.
I know someone who's vaguely involved with one of the London roller derby groups. And they just meet in a sports centre, in a flat room.
Tom Lum:
This is a perfect question for Ella, because...
Ella:
I used to play roller derby, and...
Tom Scott:
I know two people who've been involved with roller derbies!
SFX:
(group laughing)
Ella:
So, roller derby is a sport... dominantly a women's sport, really. There are men's teams, but it's very predominantly a women's sport.
And it's played on roller skates, obviously, and you have jammers, they have stars on their helmets. And they have to try and pass the blockers to score points.
Actually, if you had heard the name of the person who sent the question in, Jabberblock, I assume that that is their roller derby name.
Tom Scott:
Oh!
Tom Lum:
Oh my gosh!
Caroline:
Oh my goodness! Wow!
Tom Scott:
Yep.
Tom Lum:
Wow.
Tom Scott:
Yep.
Ella:
Roller derby began in the US, and it's still huge there.
And it started on banked tracks, while it was still, you know...
Caroline:
Right.
Tom Scott:
Yes, it did.
Ella:
...easy to find those things.
But now it's really, as I said in the question, it's very expensive to maintain. It's really hard to find those kinds of tracks.
So, more and more communities have started moving to flat areas, flat tracks. So you can just do it in a community centre, like you said, Tom.
Tom Lum:
Oh.
Caroline:
Wow.
Tom Scott:
Yep.
Tom Lum:
That's amazing!
Ella:
If you want to see some fun roller derby action, on bank tracks, the film Whip It includes this. And that's actually what got me into roller derby.
Tom Scott:
Next question's been sent in by Scott Mitchell. Thank you very much.
In 2017, a six-year-old in Dallas, Texas, asked for and received a KidKraft Sparkle Mansion doll's house. As a result, a few people in the San Diego area were surprised to receive a doll's house shortly afterwards. Why?
And one more time.
In 2017, a six-year-old girl in Dallas, Texas asked for and received a KidKraft Sparkle Mansion doll's house. As a result, a few people in the San Diego area were surprised to receive a doll's house shortly afterwards. Why?
Ella:
Her name is... street name San Diego. Her name's Sandy Eggo.
Caroline:
Oh!
Tom Scott:
(laughs)
Tom Lum:
Sandy Eggo!
SFX:
(Tom Lum and Caroline laugh)
Ella:
Her name's Sandy Eggo.
Tom Lum:
Heir of the Eggo fortune.
Tom Scott:
Yeah, yeah.
Caroline:
Or even something as silly as, part of the address is very, very similar, and the parents were like, "Man, it's not showing up. I guess we'll just order another one. Man, it's still not showing up. I guess we'll just order another one."
And that keeps happening until multiple children have doll's houses. It's a lovely story.
Tom Lum:
(wheezes)
Ella:
What was the... the toy called, the toy set?
Tom Scott:
The KidKraft Sparkle Mansion. But the other doll's houses were unlikely to be the same model.
Ella:
Oh, I was gonna say. I was wondering maybe if it was like... (snickers) there's a street in San Diego called the KidKraft Sparkle Mansion.
SFX:
(Tom Scott and Caroline laugh)
Tom Lum:
Did you say Dallas, Texas, or just Texas?
Tom Scott:
The six-year-old girl was in Dallas, Texas.
Tom Lum:
Okay.
Caroline:
Okay.
Tom Scott:
The other people who were surprised to receive a doll's house, they're over in San Diego.
Tom Lum:
San Diego. I was wondering if this, because I know there's a Paris, Texas. So I don't know if that was going to be the mix-up, but it's interesting.
Caroline:
Did the other people who received doll's houses...
Were they— Did they also have children? Were they also young? Or was it adults who ended up with these doll's houses really randomly?
Tom Scott:
Those were adults. They were very surprised to receive them.
Tom Lum:
KidKraft Sparkle Mansion dollhouse.
Ella:
Strange.
Tom Lum:
It's interesting because this happened in 2017, right? And I feel like before online ordering, it would be easier— You'd be looking for a different kind of mix-up, right?
So is this anything— Is this a very digital mix-up, or is versus—
Tom Scott:
This is a very, very digital mix up.
Tom Lum:
Oh, is she... Is her name like... Sarah Drop Tables, like that xkcd joke? And it just messed up the system.
Tom Scott:
(laughs)
Her name is Brooke Neitzel. So no, but...
You are very much in the right ballpark with digital mix-ups here.
Caroline:
Okay.
Tom Lum:
How can you goof up an ordering system like that? Oh, did she sign into a different account or something like that? A classic... was on someone else's online account, and then ordered it through there?
Caroline:
Or even the family's previous addresses that they accidentally ordered them to?
Tom Lum:
Also, this is a six-year-old. And so maybe she put in... She didn't really understand. She should not be ordering stuff online. So maybe she put in...
Ella:
(gasps) She—
Tom Lum:
an address— Yeah, Ella? What were you gonna say?
Ella:
'Cause the name of the house that she had, has five words in, right? So she ordered five ones that were like, "kids dollhouse, craft dollhouse, sparkle dollhouse," to random addresses.
Tom Lum:
Did she put the name of the dollhouse in the address field as... Yeah, exactly like Ella was saying.
Caroline:
I love that we're assuming the child ordered this.
Ella:
Yeah.
Caroline:
I love that. (laughs)
Tom Scott:
It's phrased very carefully that she asked for and received a doll's house.
Tom Lum:
Did Santa mess up? Classic.
Tom Scott:
Something a little more concrete than Father Christmas.
Tom Lum:
What's more concrete than Santa?
Ella:
The Easter Bunny.
Tom Lum:
(blurts laugh)
Caroline:
(laughs heartily)
Tom Lum:
For a birthday, for...
Tom Scott:
I think you're all envisaging a kid on a tablet or something like that, that they've stolen from the parent.
And I think the picture in your head is not quite right.
Ella:
She called up on— Oh, no.
Caroline:
Ohh.
Ella:
She was on a chat. She was on a— 2017, so she was on a chat with a real person?
Tom Scott:
Not a real person.
Ella:
Oh, a bot. So an ordering bot.
Oh, Alexa! It was an Alexa or a—
SFX:
(Caroline and Tom Lum gasp)
Tom Scott:
Yes, it was!
Tom Lum:
Ella!
Tom Scott:
And...
Caroline:
No way!
Tom Lum:
Nailed it!
Tom Scott:
For the listeners that wondered what was just kind of fuzzed out there, because we don't want to set off all your devices.
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Tom Scott:
That was Amazon's ordering system that is tied into the little device that sits on people's desks that sounds like the female version of Alex.
Yes, Brooke Neitzel accidentally ordered a $170— Well, you say accidentally. Accidentally ordered a $170 doll's house and four pounds of cookies while talking to her mum's Amazon Echo Dot.
That is the first part of the story.
Ella:
Okay.
Tom Scott:
You've worked out the first bit.
Why were a few people over in San Diego surprised to receive a doll's house a few days later?
Tom Lum:
Could there have been, like, the news was on at the same time, and someone's address was mentioned, or...
Ella:
Ohh.
Tom Lum:
But—
Tom Scott:
The news is definitely involved. That's not quite how the story went.
Tom Lum:
Well, 'cause how do you put in an address to an order from that, from the name of— the name that shall not be named? I've never done that. So do you actually have to say a specific address, or do you have to...
Tom Scott:
No, it wouldn't work that way. I don't think you can say an address into it. You'd have to set it all up beforehand.
Tom Lum:
Is it a default address in the system or something?
Caroline:
Well, yeah, my thinking was like, is that... Did they have a home address and then a work address? And maybe something in the background said, "Deliver to work," and it went— It was sent to a parent's work address or something like that?
Tom Scott:
Dial in on news, Tom. You were right there.
Tom Lum:
Really?
Caroline:
Interesting.
Ella:
She had... No, because you said you can't give... I was about to say that she had a newspaper, and she just started saying things to it, but no, so no one has said—
Tom Scott:
(chuckles) How might a message reach the population of San Diego specifically?
Ella:
Do San Diegans have a different news delivery system to everyone else?
Tom Scott:
Yeah. They'll have a different station to Dallas, certainly.
Tom Lum:
Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh! The person on the news? Did the person on the news say this? Say the phrase, "You can use your blank" phrase, and then it triggered this person's—
Did the— Was it not even the six-year-old's fault?
Or did the newscaster say the phrase that triggered it?
Tom Scott:
Why would the newscaster say that?
Caroline:
Oh my goodness! So did the child order on Ale...a...
Tom Lum:
Oh my god!
Caroline:
And then that news story was reported, and then that then set off other people's things?
Tom Scott:
Yes!
Tom Lum:
Caroline! This was a team slam dunk! That was great!
Caroline:
Oh my goodness!
Tom Scott:
The story from Dallas got picked up by a news station in San Diego. The news was really careful to kind of not say the phrase, and then the anchor afterwards summarised the story and said aloud, quote, "I love the little girl saying, '(mmph) ordered me a dollhouse.'"
Caroline:
No way!
Ella:
That's so funny!
Tom Lum:
Amazing!
Tom Scott:
Most of the orders were stopped, but that news station got complaints later, saying, "A dollhouse has been ordered for me."
Caroline:
Wow! Because that means that it must have happened to enough people. Because I feel like a lot of people would be like, "Huh, that's really weird, I'll send that back."
It happened to enough people, that people complained about it. That's insane.
Tom Scott:
Yep.
Ella:
Oh, that's so good.
Tom Lum:
Y'all, bump set spike. Great job. That's a real journey of a ride.
Tom Scott:
Tom, over to you for the next question.
Tom Lum:
Rock and roll.
This question has been sent in by Owen R. Bit of a jump from the last one.
In 217 BC, during the Second Punic War...
Tom Scott:
(cackles)
Caroline:
Yes.
Tom Lum:
...the army of Carthaginian general Hannibal was stuck in a valley with all exits blocked by the Romans. One night, how did he borrow some horns to escape without engaging the enemy?
I'll say that again.
In 217 BC, during the Second Punic War, the army of Carthaginian general Hannibal was stuck in a valley with all exits blocked by the Romans. One night, how did he borrow some horns to escape without engaging the enemy?
Ella:
Well... Obviously we're all thinking the same thing, which is... disguise himself as a goat.
SFX:
(group cracks up)
Caroline:
Or a cow.
Tom Lum:
Baa, don't mind me! (wheezes)
Caroline:
(laughs)
Tom Lum:
Shoot, I talked, I talked, I keep talking!
SFX:
(group laughing)
Ella:
I'm just feeling like the word 'horns' is not what I think is horns.
Caroline:
Oh, that's a really good point, yeah.
Tom Scott:
Just the entire brass section from a ska band and just completely distracted.
SFX:
(Tom Lum and Caroline laugh)
Tom Lum:
The oldest musical genre.
Tom Scott:
Who'd never ever heard of skanking before and just absolutely went for it.
Ella:
That was it, right, Tom?
SFX:
(Ella and Tom Scott snicker)
Caroline:
Yeah.
Tom Lum:
Yep, yeah, yeah. Hannibal famous for revving up his army, being like, "Pick it up, pick it up, pick it up!"
Tom Scott:
(laughs heartily)
Ella:
When you say escape, was it just Hannibal that escaped, or his entire army escaped?
Tom Lum:
It was his entire... It was the majority of his army, yeah.
Caroline:
How big was his army? Do you know?
Tom Lum:
It's in the order of thousands from some brief research I found.
Caroline:
Oh, okay, cool. So it's not just an "army" in quotation marks. It's actually just like five people.
Tom Lum:
Four people dressed as goats. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SFX:
(both chuckle)
Caroline:
When I think of horn, I think of one of those... stereotypical bone horns that people blow into, and it makes a (ba-ba) sound. Did one person sneak out and make that sound, and then the whole Roman army was like, "We're being called back, let's go!"
SFX:
(Ella and Tom Lum crack up)
Caroline:
And then they just... it opened up the valley?
Tom Lum:
They played the vuvuzela, and they were like, "Oh my god, is the World Cup on?!"
SFX:
(group laughing)
Tom Lum:
I'll say no to that. It is...
Tom Scott:
Faking a summons or something like that. You've gotta, if all the exits are blocked...
Caroline:
Yeah.
Tom Scott:
You either have to make a new exit, or you have to unblock one of the exits and get the people out of the way. And I feel like horns are not going to help you dig a tunnel under an alp.
Caroline:
Mmm, yeah, yeah.
Tom Scott:
You would have to unblock an exit somehow. You would have to move the people there out of the way.
Tom Lum:
Yeah, I'll say, both Tom and Caroline, you're on the right track, that it is a sort of distraction.
Caroline:
Did it— Did they cause a stampede?
Tom Scott:
(gasps)
Caroline:
And people were like, "Oh, I don't want to be in the way of these stampeding cows coming towards me. Let's move out of the way." And then they were like, let's go.
Tom Lum:
You're— You are so very close, Caroline, with that, actually, surprisingly. There is a way—
Tom Scott:
Did they make— Did they make the Romans think there was a stampede coming? Or did they cause a stampede?
Caroline:
(gasps)
Tom Scott:
If you just— If under cover of darkness, you make a lot of noise, and a lot of... stampeding cow horn noises...? (laughs)
Caroline:
Yeah, and kick up some dust. Hold some horns above your head. So that it looks like it's not above your head. You know, some eight-foot-tall cow coming towards you. But you know. Yeah, exactly what Tom was saying.
Tom Scott:
Also, where would he borrow the horns from?
Caroline:
Yeah.
Tom Scott:
Oh wait, hold on. We're assuming that these are... horns you blow to make noise. They could literally just be the horns off a cow.
Caroline:
I'm back to animal horns.
Ella:
I thought they were actual animal horns, hence the disguise yourself as a goat.
Tom Scott:
I just got distracted by ska.
Caroline:
Is 'borrow' a really strong word? And actually they were taking horns either from a living animal, or even from... a dead skeleton that they had found lying about?
Tom Lum:
So, I'll say you guys are— have a lot of the pieces here. I'll say, yes, Caroline. 'Borrow' is a silly word. Tom, I'll say that you were right that there's something about the dead of night that is helpful for this. But I'll say for some of the things, you do have it backwards. So I will say you have a lot of the pieces, and there's one thing you're missing here.
Tom Scott:
They caused a stampede, or they... Or there is some local cryptid 'round there, like...
SFX:
(Tom Lum and Ella chuckle)
Tom Scott:
the wolf— the horned wolfman of... the Tyrolean Alps. I don't remember exactly where you were saying, but they scared someone. They scared the Romans, they scared the cows.
Tom Lum:
This is actually where the Jersey Devil comes from.
Ella:
(chuckles)
Tom Scott:
Yeah.
Tom Lum:
You would think it comes from Jersey, but it comes from here.
Caroline:
(cackles)
Tom Scott:
Wait, Hannibal had elephants.
Ella:
Oh.
Caroline:
Woah.
Tom Lum:
I don't believe it— It's not elephant-related.
Ella:
Aw.
Tom Scott:
Okay.
Tom Lum:
And the interesting thing, I believe, for this is that... Yeah, this sort of was a thing that Hannibal put together with what was... sort of at hand at the place he was occupying, I believe.
Caroline:
Oh, interesting. I was sort of going along the lines of, you said that it was like the opposite was happening. I'm thinking maybe the Roman army is starving and waiting for food to come along, and therefore distracting them by saying, "Look, here's a cow that you could go and slaughter, move out of the way," could then distract them in a different way, almost?
Tom Lum:
So I'll say, yeah, Tom, you were on the money with it being a stampede they caused. And there's something in the— A trick that they played that works especially well at the dead of night.
Caroline:
Fire? Setting things on fire? Explosions?
Tom Lum:
You have all the pieces, with fire.
Tom Scott:
You set the stampeding cattle on fire and send them into the ruins.
Caroline:
(laughs)
Tom Lum:
A little safer than that. What did they borrow?
Ella:
Horns.
Tom Scott:
Flaming horns? They set the horns on fire.
Ella:
Oh, and just sent them— Oh, just sent them straight in.
Tom Lum:
What's a safer way— "slightly safer" way than doing that is just... tying a torch to the horns of these animals.
Ella:
Well, yeah—
Caroline:
Oh?
Tom Scott:
Wow!
Caroline:
I think I need some more elaboration.
Tom Scott:
Yeah.
Tom Lum:
So...
Caroline:
Yeah.
Tom Scott:
(laughs)
Tom Lum:
Well, well, what— What would that look like, if you had a bunch of... horns with torches aloft?
Ella:
Oh, like an angry mob! Like a... Like a bigger army than they had.
Caroline:
Oh my goodness!
Tom Scott:
It's a torch-wielding mob that is actually just some cows you've taped...
Tom Lum:
Uh-huh.
Tom Scott:
You've taped some flaming torches to it.
Ella:
Ohh.
Tom Lum:
Correct.
Caroline:
(cackles)
Tom Lum:
Which would then distract the army, letting them escape from another way.
Ella:
Because it looks like they're all—
Caroline:
Wow.
Ella:
Right.
Tom Scott:
Yeah. Because it looks like there's a load of people over there with torchlight making themselves really obvious.
Tom Lum:
Yes.
Tom Scott:
And... it's actually (snickers) just some cows.
Tom Lum:
Yeah!
SFX:
(Tom Lum and Caroline laugh)
Tom Scott:
I don't know why I was going to go with taped. That's not how it worked. Tied some...
Tom Lum:
No. (laughs) Duct tape.
Tom Scott:
Flaming torches.
Caroline:
Duct tape it on.
Tom Lum:
Yeah. I would love a deeply historical reenactment of this, and the only thing they break is they use duct tape for some reason.
Tom Scott:
Yeah.
Caroline:
Yeah, yeah.
Tom Lum:
So... The Battle of Ager Falernus, I apologize if I butchered that, took place in September 217 BC. During the day, Hannibal's men tied wood and sticks to the horns of a large herd of oxen that they had captured. And at night, they lit the wood and maneuvered the terrified stampeding oxen up the hill towards the Romans.
Ella:
Aww.
Caroline:
Aww.
Tom Lum:
And in the dark, the Romans believed that the flaming torches were being carried by Hannibal's men. Then the Carthaginians were able to make their escape through the mountain pass.
And the Roman leader Fabius had his reputation badly dented by this episode, and actually lost his consulship a few months later.
Tom Scott:
Thank you to Paul Thorpe for this next question.
In 1957, the Martin-Baker company has built up a club of 6,000 people who have used its products. Nobody wants to join the club, but its members are very happy to be in it. What's the criteria for joining?
I'll give you that one more time.
In 1957, the Martin-Baker company has built up a club of 6,000 people who've used its products. Nobody wants to join the club, but its members are very happy to be in it. What's the criteria for joining?
Caroline:
Having haemorrhoids.
SFX:
(others laugh uproariously)
Ella:
Welp.
Tom Scott:
Why?
Caroline:
I mean, nobody wants that for themselves. But, you know, maybe this company sells a wonderful solution for curing your haemorrhoids. So everybody's like, "You know what? I'm in a terrible situation right now."
Tom Lum:
Okay, you know what?
Caroline:
"But I'm really happy to be part of this club to get rid of it."
Tom Lum:
You reasoned through it, Caroline.
Caroline:
There was a thought process here!
Tom Lum:
Still, the startlingness of that.
Tom Scott:
Yeah, no, it's... Now you've said it... yeah, that's a solid bit of logic. That's a good answer. It's just... I think that's the first time I've ever had someone just respond to a question with haemorrhoids?
Caroline:
(laughs)
Tom Lum:
(claps)
The Martin-Baker Company. And it's 6,000.
My guess was like, you know, it's like... "Congratulations for being our top consumer of our cookies. Here's some more cookies."
And it's like, "Oh, I feel kinda guilty for having that many cookies, but also I'm glad that I get more."
Ella:
I liked where you were going with that, Caroline. This idea of, it's... something that helps you out of a situation...
Caroline:
Mhm.
Ella:
...that you don't want to be in. But you need the thing in that moment, so... I would assume it would be something like... like a helmet, you know, like some, you know, safety equipment. Like, you don't want to be in the falling off your bike club. (snickers) But...
SFX:
(Tom Lum and Caroline laugh)
Ella:
But when you're in it, you're glad you have the helmet to stop that.
Caroline:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Tom Lum:
Uhm... hemorrhoids.
Oh wait, did we say that already? Have we said that already? Okay, sorry. That's usually my first guess.
Fall off your bike club.
Ella:
The falling off your bike club.
Tom Scott:
There are quite a lot of people who've been in the fall off your bike club.
Tom Lum:
(snickers)
Tom Scott:
The Martin-Baker club, with 6,000 people, is a bit more exclusive.
Ella:
But are you saying it's a safety thing? Or a protective thing?
Tom Scott:
Absolutely. Yeah, you've nailed that.
Caroline:
Okay.
Ella:
So it's—
Tom Lum:
I also realize that it's not... Baker's just a surname, I assume. It's not an actual bakery, I realize now.
Tom Scott:
Yeah, it's hyphenated. It's hyphenated. You're not baking your Martins.
Caroline:
Are they for military equipment of some sort? Or something along those lines?
Tom Lum:
Mm.
Tom Scott:
Mm, yes.
Ella:
Okay, it's milit—
Tom Scott:
That's why it's so exclusive.
Ella:
Okay, so military equipment, so it's gonna be like... haemorrhoids. (cracks up) Sorry.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Tom Scott:
Okay, I'm sorry. I'm ruling this out. I'm not having haemorrhoids be the running joke of this question and episode. We're not having it.
Ella:
I just—
Tom Lum:
Sorry, the seriousness.
Ella:
I just had to make sure all three of us got it in, okay? I'll stop now, we'll all stop.
Tom Lum:
Oh, rule of threes, we got— Okay, we're done.
Tom Scott:
Were you to suffer from those, it would make this experience marginally worse. Marginally, it's pretty bad anyway, but it would be marginally worse.
Ella:
Oh?
Tom Lum:
Now, my guess was is it like, fall out of a fighter jet club, rather than fall off a bike club?
Caroline:
Oh my goodness! Is it parachuting or something like that?
Tom Scott:
You don't fall out of a fighter jet.
Ella:
You get ejected.
Caroline:
That's a good point.
Tom Scott:
You get ejected. So what do the Martin-Baker Company make?
Ella:
Fighter jet ejector seats?
Tom Scott:
Fighter jet ejector seats. Martin-Baker specifically make ejector seats.
SFX:
(guests laugh squeakily)
Ella:
Wow.
Tom Lum:
That's incredible!
Tom Scott:
And so, there really aren't many people in the world who would want to join that club.
Ella:
Oh.
Caroline:
Yeah, of course!
Tom Scott:
But if you have been saved by a Martin-Baker ejector seat, they will send you a certificate, membership card, tie, tie pin, and sew-on patch.
Caroline:
Wow!
Tom Lum:
That's great!
Caroline:
You don't get that if you get haemorrhoids.
Tom Lum:
You, loving human acceleration, would be one of the people who would want to join that club for the joy of it.
Tom Scott:
No, no, I absolutely wouldn't. I've talked about this before.
I have once sat in an ejector seat. I got to take a trip in a fast jet once, and the briefing is terrifying.
Caroline:
(gasps)
Tom Scott:
It includes phrases like, if you are still conscious after ejection, you end up shorter by a couple of centimetres, possibly for life.
Ella:
(gasps)
Tom Scott:
It is brutal... because it is only used in extremes.
Ella:
Because it compresses your spine so much when it pushes you?
Tom Scott:
Yeah.
Tom Lum:
It's really a last resort. Okay.
Tom Scott:
There is a minimum weight for doing an ejector seat. They have to calibrate it to your weight. And below a certain weight, it will just snap your— It will just snap you in half.
Tom Lum:
(squeals)
Ella:
Oh my god.
Tom Scott:
You are literally on the end of a set of rockets that fire like that, and it is brutal.
Tom Lum:
This is one of those classic... There should be an action movie that breaks all of the myths, where they "knock someone out", quote unquote, and then they're like, "Oh no, oh gosh!" And then someone takes an ejector seat and is like, "Oh I did not like that, oh, oh gosh."
Tom Scott:
I think you just invented Mythbusters.
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Tom Scott:
Caroline, over to you for the next question.
Caroline:
Lovely stuff.
Why did scientists from Ghent University watch 200 hours of footage from 36 years of a prestigious Belgium cycle race?
Tom Lum:
Wow.
Caroline:
I'll say that again.
Why did scientists from Ghent University watch 200 hours of footage from 36 years of a prestigious Belgian cycle race?
Ella:
Is Ghent University in Belgium?
Tom Scott:
Yes, Ghent's in Belgium.
Ella:
Okay, so it's Belgian researchers watching Belgian video. Is this an ecology thing or conservation thing, where the researchers are watching, looking at the background in the video, to see how it's changed over 36 years?
Tom Lum:
Is Ella spot on?
Caroline:
Yeah.
Ella:
(wheezes)
Tom Scott:
Wow!
Tom Lum:
What on earth? Alright, I'll throw in some dumb guesses then before we get cracking on that.
Tom Scott:
(laughs)
Tom Lum:
I was gonna be like...
Caroline:
Thank you, yes!
Tom Lum:
I was gonna be like, are they studying relativity? And the fact that if you go slightly faster on the bike, or somehow... I was gonna be like, oh, have people increased in speed in this cycle race over this many years, right?
Tom Scott:
I was looking down at my notes trying to divide 200 by 36, and going, it's only about...
Caroline:
(laughs)
Tom Lum:
Spells out Roman numerals!
Tom Scott:
Five and a bit hours per thing. That's just the cycle race.
Ella:
I genuinely haven't heard that before. I just assumed if you're watching something over that, it seemed like something you would do, a longitudinal study, it just felt—
Tom Lum:
This is like an LLE, Let's Learn Everything. Yeah, definitely.
Caroline:
This is— Yeah.
Tom Scott:
Yeah.
Caroline:
I was thrilled when I got this question, like, "Oh, I love this so much."
Ella:
Sorry, Caroline. I just yanked that right away.
Tom Lum:
No, that was amazing!
Caroline:
You absolutely nailed it, yeah!
I'll give some background on this one, because it is really, really interesting. So, what happened here was they were looking at the Liège-Bastogne-Liège cycle race, which always takes place on the same course.
So ecological scientist Peter Dufresne was a cycling fan, which I love, that he was just watching an old clip of this race basically.
Tom Lum:
That's so good.
Caroline:
And then, yeah! So, what happened was
Tom Lum:
It's for research!
Caroline:
he noticed that the trees— Yeah, it's for research, duh.
Tom Lum:
Oh, trees.
Caroline:
Yeah, so he was looking at the trees in the background. Just, you know, casually having a little look. And he noticed that they were unusually bare for the time of year. And that sparked this idea basically.
So his colleague, Lisa van Langenhove, examined the archive footage of the race because it was available to them. And she picked out specific trees to look at in the background of this race footage.
Tom Lum:
This rules! This rules!
Caroline:
It's so good, right? And then they compared different videos from different races literally from 1981 right through to 2016.
Tom Lum:
Just to be a scientist and to uncover a trove of well-documented, routine footage of a thing is accidentally so smart, so cool.
Ella:
I'm just so researcher brained, that I was like, that's a good source.
Tom Lum:
Yeah. (wheezes)
Tom Scott:
Mhm.
Caroline:
Yes, right?
Tom Scott:
Yep.
Caroline:
Absolutely.
And because the race takes place the same time of year, every single year, and they can also look at things like the weather pattern to look at how lush the trees looked, all of this sort of stuff.
And they were able to establish that trees were sprouting leaves up to two weeks earlier at the end of this 36-year period than at the start.
So, in 2016, they were sprouting leaves two weeks earlier than they were in 1981.
Tom Scott:
Well, that very quick solve means we have unlocked the shiny bonus question.
SFX:
(guests gasping)
Tom Scott:
So, a quick one for you all.
The borders of all 50 US states have one of these, except for Hawaii. What is it?
I'll say that again.
The borders of all 50 US states have one of these, except for Hawaii. What is it?
Ella:
A land border. With another state.
Oh no, Alaska doesn't have a...
Tom Lum:
I feel like more of them got it than that.
How many was it? 15, you said?
Caroline:
Yeah.
Ella:
All 50.
Tom Scott:
Alaska does not have a land border with another state.
Ella:
No, it does with Canada.
Caroline:
English as their set language maybe?
Tom Lum:
Oh.
Caroline:
Something like that?
Tom Lum:
Yeah, that could be it.
Tom Scott:
That's about the states, not about the borders.
Tom Lum:
Oh, right.
Caroline:
Oh, sorry. Yeah, of course.
Ella:
A straight line?
Tom Scott:
Yes.
Ella:
Oh! (wheezes)
Caroline:
Ooh! Ohh!
Tom Lum:
Ella! Ella!
Tom Scott:
Two for two! Go on, why? What's going on there?
Ella:
I assume that the border of Hawaii is around the shape of the island, whereas other borders have been drawn by man, on, in between, you know.
SFX:
(others chuckling)
Tom Scott:
Yes, simple as that. Every US state has a straight line somewhere in its border.
Even when it's meant to be following rivers, or for some of it, somewhere, there'll be a— in the legal definition, there will be some straight line somewhere.
Whereas Hawaii, it's just the coastline.
Tom Lum:
You can just say it's... The line is the land, and so that can be more... yeah.
Tom Scott:
I am slightly wary that someone is going to come along and go, "Well um actually, there's a seawall on part of Hawaii, and that counts as a straight line."
Tom Lum:
(chuckles)
Tom Scott:
But you know what? We're gonna let that question go.
Ella:
Okay. (chuckles)
Tom Lum:
That's so off.
Caroline:
(laughs)
Tom Scott:
Hawaii's also the state with the fourth longest coastline...?
Tom Lum:
I guess California?
Tom Scott:
California.
Tom Lum:
Alaska?
Tom Scott:
Alaska.
Tom Lum:
Florida?
Tom Scott:
Florida, you've named all three of them. You're just blasting through the additional notes I've got here as well.
Tom Lum:
I was going to say the great state of New Jersey. Rep, whoop!
Tom Scott:
Yes, and there is also Colorado, which looks like a rectangle, and is in fact a polygon with 697 sides.
Ella:
Nice.
Tom Lum:
(wheezes)
Tom Scott:
Which is just surveying errors and curvature of the earth, and it's the closest they can get.
Tom Lum:
Right. They should name that polygon the Colorado.
Ella:
Yeah.
Tom Scott:
(laughs) I mean, that was just incredible solving speed there by the whole team. Congratulations to you.
Tom Lum:
Speedrun.
Tom Scott:
(laughs)
We have reached the final question, the one that I asked right at the start. And, honestly, I think you're going to hate me for this one.
Tom Lum:
Oh boy.
Tom Scott:
But nevertheless...
Caroline:
I believe you.
Tom Scott:
How is Fro—
You believe me that you're going to hate me, or you believe in me? Because those are very different sentiments there.
Ella:
Both, Tom.
Tom Scott:
How is Frozen the opposite of Gravity?
Ella:
Is it the songs, Frozen and...
Caroline:
Yeah.
Ella:
I was thinking Frozen and Defying Gravity, but maybe that's too... Yeah, it's like their key is opposite or something.
Tom Lum:
The movie Frozen and the movie Gravity.
Tom Scott:
The movie Frozen and the movie Gravity, yes.
Ella:
Oh.
Caroline:
Wait.
Ella:
I don't know the movie Gravity.
Caroline:
What's the movie Gravity?
Tom Lum:
Oh, it's with Sandra Bullock, and...
Ella:
Oh, and George Clooney.
Tom Lum:
She's in space, and she's an astronaut, yeah. And then she's just sort of trying to get back to Earth. But it's a lot of long shots of her flailing through space and stuff like that.
Ella:
Is it something to do with the colour gradient of the films or something, or... The length is a palindrome.
Tom Lum:
Does one have human voices on CG, and one is computer voices on real— I don't know.
Ella:
Sandra Bullock and George Clooney are not in that movie. Their voices are not real.
Tom Scott:
(laughs) I mean, in a lot of that film, the characters aren't real, or it's just a face scan.
Ella:
Oh.
Tom Lum:
Yeah, right.
Tom Scott:
A lot of the shots in Gravity, the entire environment, all the spacesuits, everything are full CG.
Ella:
Makes sense.
Tom Lum:
Will we have to know much about the movie or know much about puns to help answer this?
Ella:
Heh, yeah.
Tom Scott:
Ooh! Honestly, either one of those would solve it for you.
Caroline:
(laughs)
Ella:
Is it like... Frozen is the film with the most... Sound? Music? Or it has a certain amount, and then Gravity's the opposite amount of quiet.
Tom Lum:
Is it because in one, she's supposed to let it go, and in the other one, she's supposed to hold onto the space station?
SFX:
(Ella and Tom Scott snicker)
Caroline:
No, no.
Tom Scott:
You know what? That's close enough.
Caroline:
No. No.
Tom Scott:
That's close enough.
Caroline:
Noooo!
Tom Scott:
What is the famous song from Frozen?
Ella:
Let it Go. Oh, "Let it go" is said repeatedly. And then, "Hold on"?
Tom Lum:
Do they say, "Hold on"?
Tom Scott:
What is the tagline from Gravity, the thing that was on the posters?
Caroline:
Don't let go.
Ella:
Don't let go.
Tom Scott:
"Don't let go" is exactly right, yes. It is, Let It Go is the tagline and the song from Frozen. "Don't let go"—
Tom Lum:
Oh my god, Ella and Caroline, both head in hands, fully.
Ella:
I'm annoyed.
Tom Scott:
I said you were going to hate that one.
Ella:
Because I put my lateral brain into it. I'm thinking about times. I'm thinking about palindromes.
Tom Scott:
(laughs)
Ella:
I was— I've been snapping away this episode, and then, that's just... I'm so upset.
Tom Lum:
(wheezes)
Tom Scott:
Thank you very much (laughs) to all three of you.
I'm hoping we don't end on a sour note there. But you know what? Apparently, sometimes we do.
Tom Lum:
No, that was great. No, that's great.
Tom Scott:
Thank you to all the crew from Let's Learn Everything. Ella, tell us about the show.
Ella:
We are Let's Learn Everything. We talk about anything and everything interesting. Science and miscellaneous. It's wonderful, it's chaotic. There are so many topics, which I'm sure someone else could tell you about.
Tom Scott:
Like Tom.
Tom Lum:
We have topics like the ecology that happens around whale falls, constructed languages, jury duty...
And if you're new to the show, we will have a best-of episode that will be out. We have one for this year and for last year, if you just want a little sampler to see.
Tom Scott:
And Caroline, where can people find you?
Caroline:
You can find us, our socials, our Discord server, all of that good jazz at letslearneverything.com. And you can listen to the show anywhere you get podcasts.
Tom Scott:
And if you wanna know more about this show, you can do that at lateralcast.com, where you can also send in your own idea for a question. We are at @lateralcast basically everywhere, and there are regular video highlights at youtube.com/lateralcast.
Thank you very much to Caroline Roper.
Caroline:
Woo!
Tom Scott:
Ella Hubber.
Ella:
Best wishes, Tom Scott. Thank you.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Tom Scott:
And Tom Lum.
Tom Lum:
♪ Do do do do do do do do do ♪
SFX:
(Tom Scott and Ella laugh)
Tom Scott:
I've been Tom Scott, and that's been Lateral.
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