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Episode 110: A very 'odd' race
Published 15th November, 2024
Ella Hubber, Caroline Roper and Tom Lum from 'Let's Learn Everything!' face questions about concealed clocks, unique units and sneaky shoplifting.
HOST: Tom Scott. QUESTION PRODUCER: David Bodycombe. EDITED BY: Julie Hassett at The Podcast Studios, Dublin. MUSIC: Karl-Ola Kjellholm ('Private Detective'/'Agrumes', courtesy of epidemicsound.com). ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS: Nate, Joseph Gallear, Adam Matthews, Sam Walsh, Matthew, Martijn Pennings, Chris Shenton, Ólafur Waage, Chopin, Katie Waning, Ondrej. FORMAT: Pad 26 Limited/Labyrinth Games Ltd. EXECUTIVE PRODUCERS: David Bodycombe and Tom Scott.
Transcript
Transcription by Caption+
Tom Scott:
What used to be measured in kilo girl hours?
The answer to that at the end of the show. My name's Tom Scott, and this is Lateral.
Welcome to Lateral, your cosy retreat for the next 40 minutes. To access the podcast, please go to the key safe, and enter 1701, and then turn your brain 90 degrees to the left. The Wi-Fi password is "OutsideTheBox123", but feel free to invent your own if you don't like ours. Please note that the oven only runs on non-sequiturs, and the bathroom is equipped with a quantum toilet, that may or may not flush depending on whether you observe it. And the bed in the loft is actually a thought experiment. So, you can sleep on that.
Here to load up the dishwasher and put the garbage out, please, we have the team from Let's Learn Everything.
Welcome back to the show. You are favourites of our listeners. It is wonderful to see you all back.
Let's introduce yourselves one at a time. Ella Hubber, how are you doing?
Ella:
I'm so good. I'm so happy to be back, always.
Tom Scott:
(laughs)
Ella:
We've never left.
SFX:
(others laughing)
Tom Scott:
That's... actually vaguely worrying, to be honest.
Ella:
It should be, help us!
Tom Scott:
We do make sure all our guests get, you know, thorough enrichment exercises and time away from the recording. What has Let's Learn Everything been learning recently?
Ella:
We recently have just learnt why... ants, queen ants don't have babies with their offspring. And we learnt this from Hank Green, who came and joined us to teach us a lovely little incest story, so...
SFX:
(Tom and Caroline laugh)
Tom Lum:
Insect incest.
Ella:
Insect incest.
Tom Scott:
It's gonna sound weird if I say that's on brand for Hank, but it is kind of on brand for Hank.
Caroline:
Yeah, it really is.
Ella:
It's very on brand.
Tom Lum:
Yeah.
Tom Scott:
Caroline Roper, the— I don't want to put you in order, but I'm going to say the second in terms of introduction to this podcast. Chronologically, the second third of Let's Learn Everything. How are you doing?
Caroline:
I'm doing good. Actually, I will take this ranking of Ella, Dr. Ella at the top, me in the middle, and then the funny one-ish, kind of, at the bottom. This feels good to me, you know?
Tom Lum:
I thought this was gonna be in degrees. And I was like, that's fair. Caroline does have a master's. I'm happy to just stay with my undergrad. But then you went for the low blow.
Caroline:
I went for it, I'm sorry.
Tom Scott:
We did have two PhDs on the show, a while back, and I introduced both of them as Doctor, because that was in their briefing. And it occurs to me, should I be introducing Dr. Ella Hubber here?
Ella:
I would say, if you don't want to offend me like you have been doing for the past few episodes...
SFX:
(others laugh uproariously)
Tom Scott:
Oh, part of me is taking that as a joke, and part of me is having the most socially awkward feeling I've had in a long while, because just some bit of my brain believes that.
Tom Lum:
Well, I feel like, Ella, it does— It's great to set a lower expectation for our quality on this show, and how well we'll do also. That's the thing.
Ella:
I really don't want people to think I'm gonna come in and do this well.
Tom Lum:
Yeah, yeah.
Caroline:
(laughs)
Tom Scott:
Well, also please welcome the third third of Let's Learn Everything, and now from his own YouTube channel as well, Tom Lum!
Tom Lum:
Oh yeah, hello! Smash that subscribe button!
SFX:
(group laughs)
Tom Scott:
What have you made on there so far? Because I remember linking to your first video in my newsletter.
Tom Lum:
Yeah, we... I did a big old video about carbon dating and that whole process. And I recently just dropped a Patreon bonus video going through everything on this bookshelf that is behind me. But yeah, doing that YouTube thing.
Tom Scott:
Well, very best of luck to all three of you. It is always a joy to have you on the show. As you settle in to the accommodation here, let's hope you give a five-star review to question one.
Tom Lum:
(laughs plainly)
Tom Scott:
Thank you to previous Lateral contestant, Ólafur Waage, for this question.
SFX:
(guests gasping)
Tom Scott:
Since he began in 2010, Daniel could justifiably claim to be the most photographed person of all time. How?
And one more time.
Since he began in 2010, Daniel could justifiably claim to be the most photographed person of all time. How?
Tom Lum:
Oh, I love... I know Ella, I've... I think recently you said this. You're like, the best kind of correct is technically correct.
Ella:
Yeah.
Tom Lum:
And, so... I feel like this is going to be a real... "Well, actually, I'm the most photographed."
Ella:
You said, since he began... and then gave absolutely no context to that statement.
SFX:
(both Toms laugh)
Caroline:
Mhm, mhm.
Tom Lum:
And then—
Ella:
Since he be—
Tom Lum:
Yes, Tom, give us nothing!
SFX:
(group laughs uproariously)
Ella:
Since he began existing?
Tom Lum:
(wheezing guffaws)
Ella:
Since he began—
Tom Lum:
Yeah, since he began!
Tom Scott:
I do appreciate that I've just been called out in the manner of a drag queen who's just doing a really bad job. Thank you for that.
Caroline:
(laughs uproariously)
Tom Lum:
Yeah, course you have. Yeah. (giggles)
Caroline:
I feel like modelling is a really obvious one when it comes to... I feel like that's too on the nose, you know? But it just, it felt like since he began being photographed, it's an obvious one that I should say, because I'm sure people in the comments would be like, "Why didn't you say modelling?"
Ella:
No, people in the comments will say, "I knew this immediately." Because that's what they say.
Caroline:
Yeah! (laughs)
Tom Lum:
People in the comments will say, "I love when Let's Learn Everything is on." Ding!
Ella:
Okay.
Caroline:
(laughs)
Tom Lum:
Ella, I do love the idea that "begin" means, yeah, "is born". Like, when someone's like, "When did you begin?" It's, "Oh, you know, 1990."
SFX:
(Tom Lum and Ella giggle)
Tom Lum:
Is this like a stunt? Or like a...
Caroline:
Ooh, I was gonna say. Is this a living, real person? Or is this person in the...
Tom Lum:
That's a fair question.
Caroline:
Yeah.
Tom Scott:
it's always a fair question on Lateral. But in this case, yes. An actual, living, identifiable person.
Ella:
Okay, so I just— I feel like we need to figure out what he began.
Tom Scott:
Mhm.
Ella:
Since he began—
Tom Scott:
I'll tell you what, if you solve that, you've got the whole question.
SFX:
(Tom Lum and Caroline laugh)
Ella:
The most photographed person. What— Under what circumstances would you be excessively photographed? If you were... a celebrity. Obviously they're not someone famous enough.
Tom Lum:
Daniel Day-Lewis.
Ella:
A model, like Caroline said. But I d—
Tom Lum:
Some kind of—
Caroline:
Yeah.
Tom Lum:
My brain goes to, you know, the thing with a model or an advertising thing is that, that's almost more like, your photo is redistributed, versus being photographed, right? And so my brain for "gets taken photographs of a lot" is a tourist attraction, right? So that's why it's like, if Daniel was the nickname for the Leaning Tower of Pisa or something like that, but... And also, my brain goes—
Tom Scott:
I like that the Leaning Tower of Pisa has a nickname like that.
Tom Lum:
Yeah.
Tom Scott:
Oh, yeah. Officially, it's the Leaning Tower of Pisa. What do the locals call it? Dan. "Do you wanna go see Dan?" "Nah, I've seen Dan enough."
Tom Lum:
What's up, Dan? Still leaning?
Ella:
When did Dan begin? Oh, 2010 started leaning.
Caroline:
(laughs heartily)
Tom Lum:
That's also true, yeah. (laughs)
Ella:
Is it— So, I think 20— The fact it's 2010 kind of makes me think that it's some kind of technology started at this time that needed someone to be really excessively photographed to make it work. Like some kind of 3D mapping of someone, for example.
Caroline:
I'm also wondering if this is even Daniel's face, or if this is a different part of Daniel's body that might have been photographed. Like a hand model—
Ella:
Daniel's big toe.
Caroline:
—or something like that. Yeah, you know?
Tom Lum:
(wheezes)
Caroline:
(cackles softly)
Tom Lum:
(slams off-camera) Sorry, oh boy, that got me.
Ella:
Well, this is what I'm thinking. I'm thinking, is there some kind of— Is it like... Also, is 'photographed' 'photographed' in the traditional sense,
Tom Scott:
(points silently)
Ella:
or is it some kind of... imaging, in a scientific sense?
Caroline:
You're getting big nods from Tom there.
Tom Scott:
Yes, 'imaging' is... perhaps too technical a term. But if you're expecting this to be one photographer going click-click-click-click with a shutter button, you'd be disappointed.
Tom Lum:
Okay. Part of me was like, this person has taken the most X-rays. They've taken a million X-rays.
Caroline:
Yeah!
Tom Lum:
Oh no!
Caroline:
(laughs) I'm just thinking, change the shutter speed.
Ella:
It just looks like some kind of medical... photography thing that, you know.
Tom Scott:
No, it's not.
Tom Lum:
Caroline.
Tom Scott:
But Caroline...
Tom Lum:
You just said shutter speed. Oh my god! Is it Dan of the Slow Mo Guys?
Tom Scott:
Yes, it is, Tom! You are absolutely right.
Tom Lum:
No, that was 100% Caroline.
Ella:
That's so good!
Tom Lum:
Oh, we do know this Dan!
Caroline:
Oh my goodness! Wow! (laughs)
Tom Scott:
For the audience who don't know this Dan, Tom, who is this Dan?
Tom Lum:
Dan is one of the duo of the Slow Mo Guys, the duo with Gavin, who they take slow motion video of various things, and they've done a bunch of wonderful videos. And because the shutter speed on those is... you know, a million pictures or something like that a second or something like that, they... And I know they... A two second video can take a whole terabyte because they're just taking that many pictures.
Tom Scott:
Yeah.
Tom Lum:
Wow!
Ella:
And Dan did famously begin in 2010 existence, so...
SFX:
(group laughs uproariously)
Tom Lum:
Oh, since they began!
Tom Scott:
The sort of grammatically elided bit there is since he began being photographed for this project.
Ella:
Yes, yeah.
Tom Lum:
Yeah. Oh, that's amazing!
Caroline:
Wow.
Tom Scott:
Yeah, and he could be captured, photographed, however you want to say it... up to 1.5 million frames per second.
Caroline:
(gasps)
Ella:
Wow.
Tom Lum:
I thought my one million guess was way off. That is so much, wow.
Caroline:
Yeah. (chuckles)
Tom Scott:
Yeah, so, even if you're someone who's got a camera pointed at you 24/7, there's probably still more frames been taken of Dan over the many, many, many slo-mo shots of all the footage that doesn't make it to air.
Caroline:
Wow.
Tom Scott:
Yes, this is Dan from the Slo Mo Guys, the duo of Gav and Dan, who have been posting slow motion videos since 2010.
Tom Lum:
I can't believe Dan was actually a hint.
Ella:
(chuckles)
Tom Scott:
Just to be clear, why is it Dan and not Gav? Why is it not the other one of the Slo Mo Guys?
Tom Lum:
Because Gavin's the one who operates the camera, I believe.
Tom Scott:
Yes, Gavin is usually behind the camera, and Dan is usually having something fired at his face, or falling into a swimming pool, or these days, because he used to be in the army working with munitions, firing the gun. He is often the one who has the qualifications to be able to do the stuff, and also is willing to take a football to the face.
We go over to our guests for the first question.
We'll start today with Tom.
Tom Lum:
Wonderful.
This question has been sent in by Chris Shenton.
Chester, an English city south of Liverpool, has a famous square clock tower on its town hall. However, only three of the four sides have clocks. According to a local legend, what explanation is given for this?
I'll say that again.
Chester, an English city south of Liverpool, has a famous square clock tower on its town hall. However, only three of the four sides have clocks. According to a local legend, what explanation is given for this?
Ella:
I've been to Chester.
Tom Scott:
I've been to Chester.
Ella:
I've been to Chester Zoo.
Caroline:
Yeah, me too.
Ella:
Really nice zoo. Don't remember the three sided clock.
Caroline:
No, not particularly.
Tom Lum:
Didn't get a shirt that was like, "I saw three sides of the clock and all I got was this shirt."
Ella:
Does it matter what way... I mean, maybe you can't answer this, but does it matter what way the side of the face is not facing? The blank face.
Tom Lum:
I'd say so.
Ella:
Okay. Now I just need to know what side it is.
Tom Scott:
What do I know about Chester? It's got city walls. And in a sentence that I am deliberately using in order to annoy everyone in and around Chester, feels like a lower rent York.
Ella:
Oh, ah, ouch! Okay.
Tom Scott:
Sorry, I'm loyal to one side of the Pennines, and it shows.
Ella:
My— Here's what my initial thought was. Chester is on the border of Wales. So, they decided not to have the clock tower, the clock face on the side of Wales, so that the Welsh couldn't learn to tell the time.
Tom Scott:
I was thinking to not help the Welsh, invaders, or to not allow the people who are not paying for their clock to see the time.
Ella:
I agree. Oh, that's very— Oh, that's good. But then you said there are walls. There are city walls. So I was thinking, is there a city entrance? And maybe you put— You don't put the clock on the side that people can potentially get through. Any invader, Welsh or otherwise. so that you're in— the invaders can't tell the time.
Tom Lum:
I do love the idea of putting the wrong time on the face that is facing them. That would be a good strategy. But, yes, I think, I believe Tom hit both the... the what has happened and the reasoning.
Tom Scott:
I mean, Ella teed me up there, to be fair.
Tom Lum:
Chester lies on the border with Wales, like you guys caught on. One of the four sides is therefore facing Wales. And in theory, Welsh residents are close enough to be able to see the tower. But local legend has it that Chester didn't want to give the Welsh the time of day, because they hadn't contributed to the cost of the class.
Caroline:
Oh my god.
Ella:
That is so petty.
Caroline:
That's brutal. And also,
Ella:
I just want to say. I live in Wales, and I love Wales. I know the Welsh could tell the time, I'm sorry.
Tom Lum:
And while the town hall was opened in 1869, the three clocks were not added until 1979. So this is not— This is recent pettiness.
Tom Scott:
Wow!
Tom Lum:
This is not like—
Ella:
Wow, that is petty.
Tom Scott:
I assumed it was ancient pettiness, and it's not. It's 1970s pettiness.
Ella:
Also, it's not "local legend", then, is it?
Tom Lum:
Oh yeah, that does make it seem like it is also, yeah, more ancient than that.
Tom Scott:
This next question was sent in by Chopin. Thank you very much.
In 1938, Russian air forces enhanced the range of some of their fighter planes by 80%, while carrying bombs that were twice as heavy. Yet, only small modifications were made to these fighters. How was this possible?
I'll give you that one more time.
In 1938, Russian air forces enhanced the range of some of their fighter planes by 80% while carrying bombs that were twice as heavy. Yet only small modifications were made to these fighters. How was this possible?
Caroline:
You know how in printers, they will often have, for their ink cartridges, a limiter after a certain number of pages... to stop them from printing, even though there's still ink in there? And now I'm just thinking, is there a limiter in the engine in some way? And they were like, "Oh, if we just take that out, then it'll just fly for way longer?" (laughs)
Ella:
What if it's even stupider than that? It was like, the fuel gauge... It said there was— it was empty, but actually it was just reading the wrong amount. And so they are, they're like, oh, we can go further.
Tom Scott:
Many years ago, I watched Colin Furze, if you know him, bypass the limiter on a golf cart. And it turns out that the limiter on a golf cart is just a little thing. It took him two or three minutes. We were building a thing for a show. And he just kind of went, "Oh yeah, I know how to do this." Kind of fiddled with the engine for a while, and suddenly the thing went twice as fast as it was meant to.
Tom Lum:
This is maybe the most— the least surprising Colin Furze story I've ever heard.
Tom Scott:
Yes, yes.
Tom Lum:
It makes perfect sense. Could the bombs have doubled as fuel?
Tom Scott:
It's not that, but I feel like you should work in the ministry of interesting wartime ideas back in the 1930s when they were just sort of throwing everything out there to see what would work.
Tom Lum:
That's very kind. I want you to know... The humility as I walked into that so slowly being like, oh, I don't want to ruin this episode by getting this question.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Tom Lum:
I want you to know how much I was like, is this okay? Should I run this by Producer David to see if it's okay to say this answer that quickly? 'Cause it's...
Tom Scott:
Completely wrong, sorry.
Tom Lum:
Well, ok'aab.
Ella:
If this is a, yeah. If this is an actual technology thing, I have nothing. But if it's some kind of ridiculous workaround, we can get there.
SFX:
(Tom Lum and Ella laugh)
Tom Lum:
Part of me was like, you have extra mass because of the mass of the bombs. Therefore, when you launch off of a ramp or a roller coaster, you'll get extra...
Ella:
A roller coaster?
Tom Lum:
Yeah, you know, you... The mass on going down, and then you launch from that. Also, pardon me, I know something about how... you know, if you go high enough in the jet stream that certain factors don't matter as much, and also maybe then, on the way down, you go faster because you're descending with more mass. And therefore, actually you can go farther. Physics.
Caroline:
(wheezes)
Tom Lum:
(wheezes)
Tom Scott:
That might work over short distances, but this is extending the range, like the entire range of the fighters.
Tom Lum:
Yeah, and I assume by range, you mean, distance it can travel.
Tom Scott:
Yep.
Tom Lum:
Okay.
Caroline:
Huh.
Tom Lum:
Was it fewer bombs, but they increased the size of them? I don't know if there's some trick in the wording there.
Caroline:
Or even the opposite way around. If it was more bombs, but lighter, so that they would drop them quicker. And therefore, it was lighter in the long run.
Tom Lum:
Oh. Yeah, they're lighter on the way back, when they drop— after they drop them?
Tom Scott:
It was certainly very different on the way back.
Tom Lum:
(wheezes) Oh boy.
Caroline:
(chirps) Oh!
Tom Lum:
The most ominous answer for that.
Tom Scott:
The fuel efficiency was far, far better at the start of the journey, though.
Ella:
They put in pedals, so you can charge the...
Caroline:
(laughs)
Ella:
It's like the Flintstones' car. You could run along the ground with the plane.
Caroline:
I thought you were doing a Chicken Run vibe of, they pedal, and then it flaps. That's what I thought.
Ella:
Is it wheels?
Tom Scott:
(laughs)
Ella:
Do they add wheels to the plane? Before, there were no wheels, so it didn't— couldn't take off properly, or land properly, or...
Tom Scott:
It's safe to say that while the fighters themselves weren't really modified... there is something quite big going on here.
Caroline:
Did they create really big catapults that flung them into the air, so that they didn't have to use fuel to take off, and therefore their fuel efficiency was better?
Tom Scott:
No, but you're along the right lines.
Caroline:
Oh, wow.
Tom Scott:
There is definitely some help being received here.
Ella:
They pushed— They just pushed the plane to save the fuel at the start.
Tom Scott:
How would you push a plane?
Tom Lum:
Very hard.
Caroline:
Difficultly?
Tom Lum:
Difficultly?
Ella:
They pulled the plane...? To get the speed up with a...
Tom Scott:
That wouldn't give you 80%.
Ella:
Yeah.
Tom Lum:
80% is a ton. It's a lot.
Tom Scott:
Mm.
Tom Lum:
That's almost so much that it feels like there has to be— Yeah, it has to be— It's more of a trick than it is an actual improvement. Maybe I'm wrong here though. So they doubled the mass of the bombs on the plane and improved it 80%. And on the return—
Tom Scott:
So you're not using a catapult. You're not using a slingshot or anything like that. You're using something that can go a lot further than that.
Tom Lum:
Another plane?
Tom Scott:
Another plane.
Caroline:
What?
Tom Scott:
Talk me through how that might work.
Tom Lum:
No.
SFX:
(group laughs uproariously)
Tom Lum:
I said those words, I did, "Ah, yes," and then, of course, every word I say, I think through carefully. So just give me a second to organize my plan schematics.
Caroline:
What, one really big plane that had—
Tom Lum:
A plane that carries the second plane.
Tom Scott:
Yes, Caroline, you've nailed it.
Caroline:
Oh! (laughs)
Tom Scott:
This was what they called parasite aircraft.
Ella:
Oh!
Tom Lum:
Love that. I'm back on board.
Tom Scott:
This is a Tupolev heavy bomber, loaded with up to five fighter craft attached to it.
Caroline:
(gasps)
Tom Lum:
No!
Tom Scott:
Why am I still talking about fuel efficiency here? Why do we just not phrase this as, oh, they took the planes out and launched them from there?
Caroline:
Because it includes the fuel of the big plane as well, right? So it's the fuel efficiency of all of them together, rather than individual journeys?
Tom Scott:
Yes...? I feel like you're picturing, they fly the planes there, and then they kind of just spool the engines up and go.
Ella:
That is what I'm picturing.
Caroline:
Are all of the engines on?
Tom Scott:
All of the engines are on.
Tom Lum:
The engines of the smaller planes are on!
Tom Scott:
Yes, that's why the efficiency was so great. They have locked all these together to make one weird... Mighty Morphin Power Rangers...
SFX:
(group laughing)
Tom Scott:
giant, colossal plane with up to six engines and six propellers all working in tandem. And then when they get near to the destination, they can disconnect the fighters and send them off.
Tom Lum:
I'm picturing those— is it the crocodiles that have the birds on them? But then the birds are also flapping to help make the crocodiles run faster. Oh my gosh!
Tom Scott:
And the other reason they do that is because... the same kind of way that cyclists will work together as a pack and help each other with fuel efficiency. The planes in that close proximity also boost each other, and together, they work better.
Tom Lum:
Wow!
Tom Scott:
So, yes, this was the parasite aircraft system that the Russian air force invented in the 1930s... to moderate success. It wasn't one of these things that just completely vanished. They actually did have some success with it, where the small fighter planes were attached to a heavy bomber, for the journey out.
Caroline, over to you for the next question.
Caroline:
Lovely.
This question was sent in by Martijn Pennings.
40 people are given a piece of paper with a large number on it. Half a day later, some of them will run back with about 10 more pieces of paper bearing the same number. They repeat this up to four more times. What's happening, and why are the numbers always odd?
And once more.
40 people are given a piece of paper with a large number on it. Half a day later, some of them will run back with about ten more pieces of paper bearing the same number. They repeat this up to four more times. What's happening, and why are the numbers always odd?
Tom Lum:
My first... Well, okay, I'll be honest. My first guess was it was a giant check. Because it was a big piece of paper with a number on it.
Caroline:
Nice.
Tom Scott:
Yeah.
Tom Lum:
I don't think so. My second guess for a piece of paper with a number on it is, of course, like marathon runners. And that also then makes sense for the running part of it. I mean, it sounds like a scavenger hunt, but I feel like that can't be right.
Tom Scott:
I was thinking some kind of treasure hunt or game.
Caroline:
Oh, all of you are weirdly close, right off the bat.
Tom Lum:
Okay. Yeah, part of me was like, is this... You know, is this one of those questions where it's just like a funny way of describing a real thing? Or is this just like a literal way of describing something very strange? And so it could— It seems like it might be the latter. Half a day later, that's a lot.
Ella:
Is it like a kind of a competition? An athletic, something like a triathlon? Do you change...
Caroline:
Not a triathlon. And actually, Tom, Tom Lum, you were super, super close with something like a marathon.
Tom Scott:
There's plenty of ultra long distance trail running things.
Caroline:
Yeah, there are.
Tom Scott:
Where it's really, long distances. We're talking past marathon distances.
Caroline:
Yeah, that is pretty spot on, yeah.
Tom Lum:
The up to four more times is interesting, Caroline. So it's like an optional? Up to four more times?
Tom Scott:
Or you're proving how many times you've done the course.
Caroline:
It is something to do with how many times you might have done the trail.
Tom Lum:
The trail you've done multiple times. Is this... competitive trail running? Which we covered on The World Games, which is a sport that is covered there?
Caroline:
I don't remember it being featured on The World Games, no.
Tom Lum:
We might not have mentioned that. I researched it, but it was also...
Caroline:
I don't think it's part of The World Games, no. And actually based on what I read, it's held in the same place each year.
Tom Scott:
Why have they run back paper, and why are the numbers odd? I have a thing in my head about some bizarre endurance race in the US.
Ella:
It's some kind of game of tag. Like you're catching other players because you're coming back with more paper, so you're taking paper off other people.
Caroline:
Ella that's a really wonderful thought. And it's wrong.
Ella:
Oh, come on! You're killing the people and getting the paper off.
Tom Lum:
Are these actual just pieces of paper with numbers? Or is this like a dollar bill or something like that? Is there some trick in that? And also, is this regional to a specific place that maybe makes this make more sense? Is there some famous mountain or some famous track that you run around?
Caroline:
No, it's nothing quite like that.
Tom Scott:
The numbers are always odd because they're one and five dollar bills.
Ella:
Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking.
Tom Scott:
They're just going out and hunting for money. They're just robbing people. They're just...
Ella:
It's the great pickpocketing games.
Tom Scott:
Yes.
Tom Lum:
Oh, that'd be great. World Games, add that. Big pocketing next year to the World Games.
Caroline:
What other pieces of paper have numbers on them? Or are numbered?
Tom Scott:
Pages of a book?
Caroline:
Oh, yes, they are.
Ella:
Is it pages of the Bible? Is this some kind of—
Caroline:
No, but it's— You are spot on that they are looking for pages of a book.
Tom Lum:
Could this be Da Vinci Code related? It's a themed thing where you have to go around the city to find pages of a book in a thing.
Ella:
Oh.
Tom Scott:
Wait, but... book pages have an odd number on one side and an even number on one side.
Caroline:
Yeah, they do. They absolutely do. And that's key as to why these people are going to go and look for them.
Tom Scott:
Oh.
Caroline:
And go back to what you thought about with marathon runners at the beginning.
Ella:
It's just a marathon running with a book open in front of you.
Tom Scott:
It's one of those things like chess boxing, where you have to do the marathon, then answer questions on the book that you prepare.
Tom Lum:
About Crime and Punishment, yeah.
Ella:
Is it a relay? It's just a relay? So... You are collecting to prove... No, it's not a relay.
Caroline:
That was a good word, 'prove'.
Ella:
Oh! Okay, you're proving something, okay.
Tom Lum:
Huh? Huh?
Tom Scott:
How are they—
Ella:
You're proving your theoretical theorem.
Tom Scott:
The proof that they have been to the remote places, to the points on this trail that they have to tag in order to prove they've gone all 'round there. A really cheap way to do that would be to just put a book at each one of those. And if you get there first, you take the first page. And if you get there second, you take the next page. And then that proves the order in which everyone—
Caroline:
You're so, so incredibly close!
Tom Lum:
Oh!
Caroline:
You're so, so close!
Tom Lum:
That was really good, wow.
Caroline:
That's so good!
Tom Scott:
But the 40 people with the large numbers, they're runners, right? They've got numbers pinned on them.
Caroline:
They do have numbers pinned on them, yes.
Tom Scott:
And that's just for their race number, to identify them, right?
Caroline:
Is it?
Tom Scott:
Oh, oh, okay, okay.
Tom Lum:
Okay.
Caroline:
You're so close. You've got a number pinned to them, and then numbers in a book.
Ella:
They need to bring back the book— the number in the book that corresponds to the number on their...
Caroline:
That's exactly it. Yeah, absolutely.
Tom Scott:
And that's why they have to be odd. Because you can't take— You can't have a runner with an even number in there.
Tom Lum:
Because then you could take their page instead, because they're attached to the same page.
Caroline:
Absolutely, yep.
Tom Lum:
Oh.
Caroline:
A sigh of relief, everyone.
Tom Scott:
So if you're wearing number three, you take page three.
Caroline:
Yeah, that's exactly it.
Tom Lum:
And four. So you can't have four, because then someone else would have taken it.
Caroline:
Yep. So this is because they are running a race, and they're tearing pages out of the book as proof that they have run the whole way around.
So this was a race established in 1986. This is called the Barkley Marathons, which is an ultramarathon held in Tennessee.
It challenges competitors to complete five loops of a 20 mile off-trail course. So a total of 100 miles, or 160 kilometers. And they have to do it within 60 hours as well. So it's not just that you have to complete it. You have to complete it in 60 hours. This thing is grueling, and a lot of people don't complete it.
So to prevent cheating, so as proof that Ella said, books are hidden at various points on the map.
Tom Lum:
Oh, cool.
Caroline:
Yeah, there you go. So the bibs are always odd numbers to prevent any confusion. Since, for example, if you tore out page 57, you're also removing page 58. So you would complete a loop, and then actually you'd get given a new bib number and do the loop again, so that you pull back a different page after you've done your second loop. You get a new number on your third loop.
Tom Lum:
That's actually— That's some—
Caroline:
It's clever, right?
Tom Lum:
That's some really clever cryptography, that is. Because also part of me was like, "Why don't you just have a person stay there?" and then you said how long it took. And I was like, I would not.
Caroline:
Yeah.
Tom Lum:
Would not have a person stationed there. That's really clever actually.
Caroline:
Would you like a little fun fact at the end for you as well?
Tom Lum:
Would love that, Caroline.
Caroline:
Ah, thanks.
So in 2024, Jasmin Paris became the first woman to complete the race. She had 99 seconds left to spare. And out of the 40 people who started this race, only five people actually completed it in 2024, Paris being one of them. So yeah, that's the reason there are people competing in the Barkley Marathons that require people to rip pages out of books. The page number matches the number on their bib, in order to prove that they're not cheating the race.
Tom Scott:
This question was sent in by Katie Waning. Ondrej also sent in the same idea.
One evening in 1985, many Czechoslovakian families argued about whether to turn on a lamp now or wait for 30 more seconds. Why?
And one more time.
One evening in 1985, many Czechoslovakian families argued about whether to turn on a lamp now or wait for 30 seconds. Why?
Tom Lum:
My first thought is... this... oh... Oh, never mind, I guess I didn't have one, sorry.
SFX:
(Tom Scott and Caroline laugh uproariously)
Tom Lum:
I could have sworn I had a thought like that. I guess not.
Tom Scott:
Happens to all of us.
Tom Lum:
(blurts laugh) The power grid switches to something, and it's like if you start earlier at this time, you get grandfathered into a lower rate or something like that. My second thought was a New Year's thing, you know?
Caroline:
My thought was Christmas. Yeah, yeah.
Tom Lum:
Yeah, some holiday in which the threshold of the 30 seconds...
Caroline:
But it was only in one specific year. It's not something that everybody's arguing about every single year. So there was something particular about this year.
Tom Lum:
That's a good point.
Caroline:
Yeah.
Tom Lum:
Yeah.
Ella:
Yeah, I'm thinking something like... So this reminds me. It's making me think of TV pickup in the UK. You know, during the '90s, late '90s, early noughties, when everyone would go and... during the advert— advertisement breaks or halftime of a football game, go and turn on their kettles, and it would overload the kind of energy system.
Tom Lum:
Yeah.
Ella:
So if that— Maybe there was some kind of really big... football match on in Czechoslovakia or some kind of world event happening. And if they turned on their lamps, then it would turn off their TVs or something, 'cause it was overloading the power grid if everyone was having their lights on at the same time?
Tom Scott:
Keep thinking along those lines.
TV pickups aren't much of a thing in the UK anymore, because obviously streaming and there's 100,000 channels. But yeah, there still is a person, as far as I know, in the National Grid Control Centre, whose job it is to call up the BBC and check when programmes will be ending, and just prepare, you know. Or to watch the football match to see if it goes into overtime, and if it does, just change the plans for when the power plants go on and off.
Tom Lum:
Could this be a...
Ella:
What a fun job.
SFX:
(Caroline and Tom Lum crack up)
Tom Lum:
Could this be a way to signal a vote through the power grid output? Stay with me. It's American Idol, and you want to vote for one of two contestants. And so you turn on the power grid, you check, because this is before cell phones, and you check if the power grid spikes during this time or during a different time, and you vote based on the time at which you turned the lamp on?
Ella:
Yeah, but it's Eurovision.
Caroline:
(laughs)
Tom Lum:
I mean, it very well could be, knowing Eurovision.
Ella:
Although I'm— I don't think Eurovision had public voting at this time, so...
Tom Scott:
It would've been the juries back then. But Tom, you've basically nailed it.
Ella:
Oh wow.
Caroline:
What?
Tom Lum:
Are you kidding me?
Tom Scott:
Absolutely right.
Caroline:
(gasps)
Tom Scott:
Yes. This was a TV sitcom called – and I'm translating here – The Troubles of Chef Svatovpluk. What might have been going on that required all this— all the shenanigans?
Ella:
It was a wedding ceremony, or something, and it was like, the bride is gonna say "I do" or run off, and you have to cast your vote.
Caroline:
(laughs)
Tom Scott:
Yeah, exactly right. It was an interactive story.
Caroline:
Oh, what? What?
Tom Scott:
I mean, it wasn't necessarily the wedding. I can't tell you exactly what the plot was. But there were forking plot branches in this sitcom.
Caroline:
(gasps)
Tom Scott:
And the audience could vote for them by waiting to turn on or off their lights at the right time.
Tom Lum:
Oh my god!
Caroline:
Wow!
Tom Lum:
That's so clever!
Ella:
That's such an amazing thing to do, that's lovely.
Tom Scott:
Yep. Producers asked the audience to turn off all unnecessary electronic devices. And then the head of the Czechoslovak State Energy Dispatch was tasked with monitoring the country's energy consumption, and would make the call of whether to go or not go on various plot devices.
Caroline:
(gasps)
Tom Lum:
That's so cool. I love the idea that these days, Game of Thrones going to the National Energy Department being like, "Hey, we have this idea. Is this okay if we really quickly..." That's so clever. That's so— I got there because I was like, what would families argue about?
SFX:
(Tom Lum and Caroline laugh)
Tom Lum:
I was like, it would be this!
Tom Scott:
There was one other similar thing they did, during a different episode, which involved a TV camera, rather than calling up the energy board. What might they have done?
Tom Lum:
Could they look out at the city, and see how many lights were turned on?
Ella:
Oh!
Caroline:
Oh!
Tom Scott:
Yep, they pointed the camera at an area of Prague, and said, "Turn your lights on, turn your lights off. We will measure that."
Caroline:
Wow.
Tom Scott:
"And go whichever way."
Tom Lum:
Beautiful.
Tom Scott:
It was a bit of a gimmick, because both options would eventually resolve to the same storyline.
SFX:
(guests laugh uproariously)
Ella:
Annoying.
Tom Lum:
Can we use the power grid for a thing that will eventually not matter at all? Yeah, it's such a... Oh, that's so great.
Tom Scott:
Yes, this is Czechoslovian TV in 1985 who asked the audience to turn on or off their lights, en masse, to vote on which way the show would go.
Ella, it is over to you for the next question.
Ella:
Okey-dokey. Wish I hadn't said okey-dokey.
Tom Scott:
It was a weird way of introducing things. But you know what? That's staying in.
Ella:
This question has been sent in by Joseph Gallear, Adam Matthews, Sam Walsh, and Matthew. Big group.
At an ASDA Supercentre in Cheshire, England, goods such as DVDs were being stolen by customers without the staff's knowledge, with no chance of triggering the security alarm. In 2015, which item was reshelved elsewhere in the store to make the crime harder to commit?
I'll read that one more time.
At an ASDA Supercentre in Cheshire, England, goods such as DVDs were being stolen by customers without the staff's knowledge, with no chance of triggering the security alarm. In 2015, which item was reshelved elsewhere in the store to make the crime harder to commit?
Tom Scott:
So I can translate ASDA Supercentre as Walmart Supercenter for North America. It is, I think, the same parent company. Just a giant big box store.
Tom Lum:
They were taking DVDs without them being triggered. Part of me was just like, because it's like those things on the side of the door. Part of me is like, you just hold it up above, and you just go through. But what about DVDs?
Tom Scott:
So these get set off by specific antennas, like little RFID things. Like credit cards, like stuff like that, that get put onto products that might get stolen.
Tom Lum:
I have a lateral thought, if you will. Could this be maybe not the shop? Could this be like one of those like Redbox... Like that's an American thing, but like a dispenser, like a vending machine of DVDs, basically? And then by changing the location, you can't do a gimmick to the— shake or do a trick on the vending machine to steal it?
Ella:
No, this— these are— This is just a normal, well, Supercentre. ASDA shop. And the DVDs are just on a shelf.
Tom Scott:
So they've got to be put in something. There's got to be a Faraday cage or something that's nearby that's stopping that antenna being picked up by the big things by the door. There's got to be something that they've got to hide it inside, surely.
Ella:
So Tom Scott, I'll say, they are going in something.
Tom Lum:
So were they going in something before, or after the change, they were going in something?
Ella:
Before the change.
Tom Scott:
Well, they reshelved the item. So they've got to put whatever this Faraday cage is, they've moved it further away.
Ella:
Faraday cage might be thinking a bit too much.
Caroline:
Were they putting it in something else that would also have to be... 'Cause you can just swipe it over something, can't you? And it'll deactivate the system sometimes. So could you put it, be putting it in... I don't know, a pair of trousers that also have a tag on them, and by deactivating the trouser tag...
Ella:
Imagine, imagine someone just scanning that and then not realising there was a DVD inside of a pair of trousers. No.
Tom Scott:
Oh, yeah, but... I don't know why I have an encyclopaedic knowledge of anti theft devices, Your Honour...
But I was assuming that it was the antenna tags. Because those were... I've had that problem before. But there's also those that get physically clipped on, that go on clothing, where they have to— where they get unclipped at the checkout by the cashier.
Ella:
It's nothing to do with the type of tag. In fact, let's say it's not leaving the store in the traditional sense, through the front doors.
Tom Lum:
Oh!
Caroline:
What?!
Tom Scott:
Alright folks. It's time to put our shoplifting brains in!
Caroline:
ha!
Tom Lum:
How else do you get out of a— Through the roof? Dig a hole.
Caroline:
In a pushchair. Pretend you're pregnant and hide it in your belly.
Tom Lum:
Was it like going in a food delivery order or something? You could put it in a...
Ella:
You guys are coming up with great ideas. You'd be great thieves. None of them are right.
Caroline:
Thank you.
Ella:
Another clue I'll give you is this is... There's a very specific reason I've emphasised that this is a Supercentre.
Tom Scott:
Oh.
Ella:
Because there's more than just a shop in here, like a normal supermarket.
Caroline:
Is there a cafe as well?
Ella:
Maybe there is, Caroline. That would be nice. It's nothing to do with the cafe though.
Tom Scott:
Well, they end up with having things like a locksmith's and an optician's, and a load of other little shops alongside, same as the Walmart has.
Ella:
Yeah, keep going.
Tom Lum:
Yeah, maybe in... A car dealership, and they drive away with the DVDs.
Ella:
They drive out with the DVDs in the boot.
Caroline:
A pharmacy?
Tom Lum:
Pharmacy would be good, yeah, if they could sneak it into... Some way to get it out of there... that isn't through the front doors, I assume, through something. And it's right next to the DVDs, or was.
Ella:
The people stealing the DVDs... They're waiting for the DVDs to come to them.
Caroline:
What? What?
Ella:
They leave the store without it.
Tom Lum:
My brain was like, can you bake it into something, and then like—
Ella:
Why are you baking in a supermarket?
Tom Scott:
Oh, but not baking! What if you just put it inside something, that then...
Tom Lum:
An order of flowers that you then get delivered to you, or something like that?
Tom Scott:
Just a trash can.
Ella:
The word 'delivered'.
Tom Scott:
Something big and cheap.
Tom Lum:
Pizza?
Tom Scott:
No, just a big... You just put a load of DVDs inside a trash can or something, and then you place a click-and-collect order for the trash can, or for the delivery, or something like that, and the employees just bring it out to you.
Ella:
You're like, you're on the right lines. The word 'delivered' is key here. They're putting it into something. It has to— I think another thing here is, it's only small things they're stealing, like DVDs. And there's something in the Supercentre that means that they can... put them out into the world.
Tom Lum:
It's just groceries?
Ella:
It's not groceries. The DVDs were next to something. Next to a product. Another— They then used that product and another service in the Supercentre, left the store, and waited. What was the product?
Caroline:
The trollies?
Ella:
No. Small, think small.
Tom Lum:
The baskets. A DVD player. You put the DVD in a DVD player.
Ella:
Oh, I like that.
Caroline:
A pet shop?
Ella:
Ugh, okay, I'll tell you. I love this answer.
Tom Scott:
I hate it when we're stumped. It's so rare for us to actually get stumped.
Ella:
I don't think this has happened to us since we started.
Tom Lum:
What's the object?
Caroline:
No.
Ella:
So, in 2015, which item was reshelved elsewhere in the store to make the crime harder to commit? It was envelopes.
Tom Scott:
no! Post office in there!
Ella:
There's a post office!
Caroline:
No.
Tom Lum:
So they were mailing... the product in the store to themselves?
Ella:
Exactly. The thieves were taking DVDs and other small items off the shelves and putting them in envelopes. They took that to the in-store post office, wrote their own address on the envelope, and then walked out the store. They just posted it to themselves.
Tom Scott:
That's incredible.
Caroline:
That is so simple. Wow. I am so upset about this.
Tom Lum:
That's good heist stuff.
Ella:
Importantly, the envelopes are taken out of the goods entrance, where there's no shoplifting alarms. So you guys kind of did get with that.
Caroline:
Oh, okay.
Ella:
And the thefts happened at the Ellesmere Port branch of ASDA. Just in case you live near there and you wanted to know. You can't do that anymore, sorry. It's not known how long—
Tom Scott:
I've already insulted that part of the world once in this episode.
Tom Lum:
Well, now we have respect for them for being very clever.
Caroline:
So where did they move the DVDs in the shop to? Did they just put them in eyesight of the post office, so that they can see—
Ella:
No, they moved the envelopes.
Caroline:
Oh, they— oh!
Ella:
So it's, not known how long the ingenious scheme had been operating. But if it took us this long to figure it out, and we're talking about it, I would imagine for a long time.
Caroline:
Yeah.
Tom Scott:
One last thing then.
At the top of the show, I asked this question that was sent in by Nate.
What used to be measured in kilo girl hours?
Anyone want to take a shot at that before I give the audience the answer?
Tom Lum:
I know... Typically women did a lot of computing work and telephone work for a while. So part of me is like, is that in the same way you had horsepower, you had how many people working at the telephone operator line, or something like that?
Caroline:
I love that, 'cause that makes me go, I know there's like, girl math and girl dinner. Is this just...
Ella:
It's the weight that I measure myself in. And then I just subtract some and say, "Oh, that's my kilo girl— That's how many kilo girls, you know?"
Tom Scott:
And also, of course, girl power is measured in the number of Spice Girls, you know. Yeah, Tom, you've basically—
Tom Lum:
Oh, no, you got that. You won that one.
Tom Scott:
You've basically got it. It is computational processing power.
Tom Lum:
Oh, actually, wow.
Tom Scott:
Because back before electronic computers were common, a computer was usually a woman, usually young, and so if you—
Tom Lum:
A person who computes, yeah.
Ella:
Oh, it makes sense. So it's like horsepower. You start with the—
Tom Scott:
Yep.
Ella:
What's— who's operating it.
Tom Scott:
Yes, a kilo girl hour was the amount of computation that 1,000 women could perform in one hour.
Ella:
There's something gently misogynistic about it. But I can't figure out why.
Tom Lum:
Yeah, right. Yeah, there's something there for sure.
Tom Scott:
I mean, I think you just— You've just really understated the entire mid-20th century.
Ella:
This whiffs of misogyny.
Tom Scott:
Thank you very much to all of our players.
Let's talk about the podcast, what you've got going on. We will start today with Caroline.
Caroline:
The fun thing is that we often don't know what we've got going on because we all bring things to the table that we don't know what each other are going to bring, which is part of the joy of the show.
So yeah, we simply don't know.
Tom Scott:
Ella, what is the show, and where can people find it?
Ella:
The show is Let's Learn Everything, where we learn, as the name suggests, everything and anything interesting. And you can find it anywhere you get podcasts.
Tom Scott:
And Tom, what else are you working on at the minute?
Tom Lum:
I'm working on a video.
Oh, you know what? I'll say it now so that hopefully when this comes out, I'll have motivation to finish it up.
Working on a video on... why we keep rediscovering water on Mars. And what that says about science communication and how we learn. Yeah, which is also a topic on the podcast we've covered.
So we can, you can hear it both there, and you can watch it. That's all that stuff.
Ella:
Wow, just repurposing the podcast for your YouTube videos.
Tom Scott:
Where can people find you, Tom? You forgot to drop the name and the link.
Tom Lum:
tomlum.com or just Tom Lum.
I got good SEO, baby. When I was born, my parents were like, "This kid's gonna have great SEO."
Tom Scott:
And if you want to know more about this show, you can do that at lateralcast.com. We are at @lateralcast basically everywhere, and there are regular video highlights at youtube.com/lateralcast.
Thank you very much to Tom Lum.
Tom Lum:
Woo!
Tom Scott:
Ella Hubber,
Ella:
Okie dokie!
Tom Scott:
Caroline Roper!
Caroline:
Yay!
Tom Scott:
I've been Tom Scott, and that's been Lateral.
Tom Lum:
(hums theme)
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