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Episode 113: 'Sheep' or 'Book'?
Published 6th December, 2024
Tom Crawford, Katelyn Heling and Evan Heling face questions about hockey hat tricks, glass gaffes and security SIMs.
HOST: Tom Scott. QUESTION PRODUCER: David Bodycombe. EDITED BY: Julie Hassett at The Podcast Studios, Dublin. MUSIC: Karl-Ola Kjellholm ('Private Detective'/'Agrumes', courtesy of epidemicsound.com). ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS: Anson Wong, A.W., Greg Weller. FORMAT: Pad 26 Limited/Labyrinth Games Ltd. EXECUTIVE PRODUCERS: David Bodycombe and Tom Scott.
Transcript
Transcription by Caption+
Tom Scott:
In ice hockey, what three things make up a Gordie Howe hat trick?
The answer to that at the end of the show. My name's Tom Scott, and this is Lateral.
Welcome to the show that your parents call "That Roundabout Logic Thing" or "The Diagonal Thinking Program" or "Y—You Know... Him, Him."
Trying to remember where they've all put the remote, first, we welcome back to the show:
makers extraordinaire, Evan and Katelyn. Welcome back!
Evan:
Ooh, thanks for having us!
Katelyn:
(applauds) Yes, we're so excited!
Evan:
We've been looking forward to coming back ever since we left the last time. This is such a fun game for us.
Tom Scott:
(laughs) Oh, that, it's lovely to hear, 'cause we ask a lot of folks on this show, there is a lot of brainpower required here.
SFX:
(Katelyn and Evan snicker)
Evan:
We love it. We love being tested.
Tom Scott:
The last time I saw your videos, you were making a tungsten dice. The heaviest possible dice.
SFX:
(Katelyn and Evan nod)
Tom Scott:
Do you still have that somewhere? Is that just weighing down a shelf?
Katelyn:
(giggles)
Evan:
It is weighing down a shelf currently.
Katelyn:
Yeah.
Evan:
It's in one of our backdrops.
Tom Scott:
(laughs)
Evan:
It's a joy to roll, but also, you have to choose where you roll it very carefully. 'Cause it is 20 pounds.
Katelyn:
It's a weapon, and you really don't want to drop it on your toe. it's a closed toed shoes only activity, to roll it.
Tom Scott:
You need safety shoes to play Dungeons and Dragons. It's amazing.
Evan:
Yes.
Katelyn:
Yes.
Evan:
(laughs)
Tom Scott:
What other stuff have you been working on?
Because last time I saw you, it was out at Open Sauce in California.
Evan:
Which is a great event, love it.
Tom Scott:
(laughs)
Katelyn:
We're working on currently, and I don't know exactly when this is going live, but we're working on our annual pumpkin project, where we try to preserve a carved pumpkin in resin forever.
Tom Scott:
Yes!
Katelyn:
It usually fails in some way, which is why we keep doing it and trying new methods.
Evan:
This is year five.
Katelyn:
Yeah, this is year five.
Tom Scott:
I remember footage of you drilling into one of them afterwards and just having goo leak out, which...
Evan:
Yes.
Katelyn:
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Evan:
They rot inside of the resin cages, and they build up pressure, and we were worried that this one was going to explode. So we had to do a controlled release of the pressure.
Tom Scott:
You had to do trepanation on a pumpkin. That's amazing.
Evan:
Yes. (laughs)
Katelyn:
Yes. (laughs)
Tom Scott:
Well, very best of luck with the show today.
You are joined by a new player to Lateral.
He is a mathematics fellow at the University of Oxford and the University of Cambridge, and his YouTube channel is Tom Rocks Maths. He has just come back from travelling the world doing maths engagement.
Tom Crawford, welcome to the show.
Tom Crawford:
Pleasure to be here, Tom. I've been looking forward to this ever since you followed me on Instagram
Tom Scott:
(laughs heartily)
Tom Crawford:
about a year ago.
So, I don't know if I'm allowed to reveal that, but that's how we got in touch.
Tom Scott:
It is lovely to have you on the show. Tell us about the travels. What have you been doing the last few months?
Tom Crawford:
Yeah, so, I had a load of talk invitations, in these far places, and I figured I'm gonna turn it into a whole trip.
So, I took a sabbatical, went and did a whole host of talks in 15 different countries, which was really fun... and attempted to write a book.
Tom Scott:
(chuckles)
Tom Crawford:
But attempted being the key word, because, you know, spending five months traveling around 15 countries doesn't leave much time for actual writing.
Tom Scott:
Yes.
Tom Crawford:
So, my editor's not very happy with that. But, you know, I loved the trip, and the book has started.
Tom Scott:
(laughs) Which, to be honest, is more than most potential authors ever manage.
Tom Crawford:
I agree, I agree. I'm glad we're on the same team. The Toms have got each other's back.
Tom Scott:
(laughs)
Evan:
(chuckles)
Tom Scott:
Have you been listening to Lateral? Is this a surprise to you, or do you know what's coming?
Tom Crawford:
I have listened to a few episodes, but I felt like given the vibe I got of the show, I think I'm probably better prepared having less of an idea of what's going to happen.
Tom Scott:
And the mathematics knowledge, looking at the questions I can see in front of me, is not really going to help at all. So very best of luck to you.
Tom Crawford:
Brilliant!
Tom Scott:
And to all of our players.
And as host of what your parents call "that out of the box show", it's my job to get us going. So let's rip open the parcel tape and unpack question one.
In 1874, Gustaf de Leval started his own company to manufacture bottles, using his technique of rapidly rotating molten glass instead of manual glassblowing. However, the business soon proved to be a financial failure. Why?
And I'll give you that one more time.
In 1874, Gustaf de Leval started his own company to manufacture bottles, using his technique of rapidly rotating molten glass instead of manual glassblowing. However, the business soon proved to be a financial failure. Why?
Evan:
Katelyn and I have made small glass beads. So we have the very— We have 1% of knowledge about working with glass, which probably will do us no good to answer this question.
Tom Crawford:
I'm also thinking, interestingly, after Tom was telling me my maths knowledge would not help, this to me sounds like a fluid dynamics problem.
Tom Scott:
Ooh.
Tom Crawford:
The way that... Because the glass is going to... As I'm thinking, I'm picturing you're rotating it, it's going to spread out due to centripetal, centrifugal, Coriolis force, one of the rotational forces. It's going to cause it to spread out.
Tom Scott:
This is what your PhD was in, right? Fluid dynamics?
Tom Crawford:
My PhD was in fluid dynamics. Exactly, yeah.
Tom Scott:
(laughs)
Tom Crawford:
So, you saying my math knowledge wouldn't help, I don't think it answers the question, but it feels like it's relevant. (chuckles) Maybe.
Evan:
Now I think the thing is if everyone is doing it one way, and this guy is doing it a different way... is it just that he can't get enough sourced parts? Like not all of the standard components work for his method? So his method is just more expensive, just because he's the only one doing it?
Katelyn:
Or if he has to put a lot of money into training employees to do it.
Evan:
Yeah, I mean, there's so many standard, non-twisty logic answers that come to mind. And I dismiss them out of hand, because I'm like...
Tom Scott:
'Cause this is Lateral.
Evan:
It's too simple of an answer.
Tom Scott:
Yes.
SFX:
(Katelyn and Evan laugh)
Tom Scott:
Yeah, I can tell you that the new manufacturing process worked really well.
Tom Crawford:
So if it worked really well, then it must have been really expensive. Must have cost so much that he couldn't have made any money... from doing it.
Evan:
Or were his competitors jealous of him, so they sabotaged him?
Tom Crawford:
So did the question tell us why he stopped? I've completely forgotten the question already.
Tom Scott:
The business proved to be a financial failure.
Tom Crawford:
Okay, so it was, right.
Katelyn:
So it is something money related.
Tom Scott:
Yes.
Katelyn:
It failed financially, not functionally.
Tom Scott:
Yes.
Katelyn:
Which, I mean, makes me think that there's something about the new method that just wasn't cost effective. I don't know if, for some reason, you would go through more glass doing it that way? There would be more waste or something?
Tom Scott:
At the risk of giving away the answer... I don't think you could be more wrong.
Katelyn:
Oh my god.
Evan:
Ohh? Oh, so it's the opposite of what you just—
Katelyn:
They made him too much money.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Evan:
It was too efficient with the use of glass?
Katelyn:
I mean, that's where my brain goes, but I don't understand. (laughs)
Evan:
How can something be too efficient?
Tom Crawford:
(laughs)
Katelyn:
I mean, maybe there's something in how...
Ooh, ooh, I have an idea. Oh, it's like water bottles.
Okay, you know how, to reduce the use of plastic, they made water bottles thinner and flimsier, and then people didn't like them? So was it more efficient with the use of glass? And then people... It didn't use as much glass per bottle.
And so people didn't like the bottles as much, because they didn't feel as heavy and high quality?
Tom Crawford:
Or is it the size that it made?
Maybe it could only make a certain size bottle, and everyone was so used to that. You know, it's like when you buy a bottle of Coke, a bottle of beer, there's a size. There's a certain shape and size that you're expecting.
So maybe this method, like you're saying, gave something that felt different or had a different shape, and therefore wasn't popular.
Tom Scott:
It was very popular.
Tom Crawford:
Oh. (laughs)
Tom Scott:
These were great glass bottles.
Evan:
What he did is he made so many, so high quality, that he saturated the market. He flooded it.
He took care of all of the glass bottle needs of his area. And then no one was buying any more glass bottles.
It was the opposite of planned obsolescence. He did too good of a job. And he put himself out of business.
Tom Scott:
Yes, exactly right. He caused a collapse in the price of glass bottles.
Evan:
Yes! (laughs)
Katelyn:
Oh my gosh! He was too good!
Evan:
He out engineered himself!
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Tom Scott:
Yep! Because before then, every glass bottle had to be manufactured by a human, making a bottle with glass blowing.
And all of a sudden... "Actually, we don't need that anymore. We can just mass produce loads of them."
And what's the key thing about glass bottles, compared to a lot of the stuff today?
Evan:
They're reusable.
Katelyn:
Yeah, they're reusable.
Tom Scott:
They're reusable. Exactly right.
So, he filled the market with glass bottles, the price crashed, and suddenly, the factory was no longer necessary.
SFX:
(Evan and Katelyn laugh)
Evan:
Ah, it's so exciting when you get the answer.
Katelyn:
I know.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Tom Crawford:
It's actually the... basically the same story as... Or you could say it's the same story as what has just happened with Tupperware, the company, right?
They make these incredibly long lasting reusable plastic containers. And they've made them so good, nobody buys more Tupperware. So now the business has just gone bankrupt.
Tom Scott:
It's this thing about building something that is just too good for the world.
Each of our guests has brought a question along with them. We'll start today with Katelyn.
Katelyn:
So the question is:
In a 2020 online challenge popularised by the Getty Museum, why did someone submit a photo of a halved avocado and two spoons?
Evan:
(softly) A halved avocado?
Katelyn:
I'll read it one more time.
In a 2020 online challenge popularised by the Getty Museum, why did someone submit a photo of a halved avocado and two spoons?
Evan:
Is the challenge to recreate a famous piece of art?
Tom Scott:
I was thinking that. 'Cause it's 2020. This is going to be a lockdown challenge that the Getty is doing to try and get some public engagement going, surely.
Tom Crawford:
Or was it to submit your own new piece of art?
Tom Scott:
Oh, yeah.
Tom Crawford:
Lockdown art. Can you create... I don't know, an interesting photo or piece of art in your house, perhaps?
Tom Scott:
It occurs to me that I've driven past the Getty, the hill that the Getty is on, so many times, and I don't actually know what the Getty Museum is.
Evan:
(laughs)
Tom Crawford:
I was about to ask that. I'm assuming art. I actually don't know either.
Evan:
I'm guessing it's a museum.
Katelyn:
You've been there!
Tom Scott:
(laughs)
Evan:
I have?
Katelyn:
Yes!
Evan:
(cackles) I've been to a lot of museums! I forget!
Katelyn:
You've been there with me!
Evan:
And it was so memorable! I loved it. I loved it so much. When was that again?
Tom Scott:
Here are my Getty facts that I know. It is a rich guy's collection, it is on a hill in Los Angeles, and there is a monorail that goes to it. Spot my priorities about art.
SFX:
(Evan and Katelyn laugh)
Katelyn:
Well, your guesses are correct that it is an art museum.
Tom Scott:
Okay.
Katelyn:
And that does have to do with, you know, the answer to this question.
Evan:
I think that you were onto something interesting, Tom, with the lockdown.
Now, interestingly, when I talk to Tom, which Tom am I talking to?
SFX:
(group laughing)
Evan:
Do I need to do...
Katelyn:
Just say Tom.
Evan:
Tom. And it can be ambiguous. Okay, perfect.
Tom Scott:
Yeah, it's fine.
Evan:
Now, the lockdown challenge, that's an interesting angle.
Maybe it's just a "submit what you're eating" food contest.
Tom Scott:
Two spoons and a half avocado?
Evan:
Yeah.
SFX:
(Evan and Katelyn snicker)
Tom Crawford:
What would that look like? Can we... Is there an obvious thing that, you know, if you were, if, in your mind, if you had two spoons and avocado, what shape are you creating? How does it look in your head? Maybe that gives us a clue.
Tom Scott:
Yeah, 'cause in my head, it's like a top down view. Like you've got a plate, and instead of the knife and fork, there's two spoons.
But, you could also stick the spoons in vertically. There's 3D elements to this.
Tom Crawford:
Like legs or arms, you know? Like a Mr. Potato Head, Mr. Avocado Head, I don't know.
Tom Scott:
Yep.
Tom Crawford:
There's a...
Katelyn:
So, I will say that... the shape that the avocado and the two spoons make is relevant.
Tom Scott:
Right.
Evan:
Ohh.
Tom Scott:
This is a stupid question. But I'm assuming the avocado is halved as you would normally halve an avocado. It's not just been cut through the middle of the stone horizontally.
Katelyn:
Like a savage.
Tom Crawford:
That's how I cut an avocado. I was picturing that.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Katelyn:
It's cut how you would normally halve it, and the pit is removed.
Evan:
Oh, the pit is removed.
Tom Scott:
Okay.
Evan:
Is that— I'm not— I don't ask any more questions. I'll let my brain think for a bit.
Tom Crawford:
So is it— Okay. I need to clarify this because I apparently cut avocados weird. Is this, so if you were to view it from above, is it circular? Or is it the kind of elongated— Okay, it's the elongated.
Evan:
Elongated, yeah.
Katelyn:
Elongated, yes.
Tom Crawford:
Okay, so this is not— Okay, I cut avocados the other way. Alright, I'm the one.
Evan:
Savage.
Katelyn:
You savage.
Tom Scott:
Wow, okay.
Katelyn:
I can say something specific about the spoons. When you're viewing the spoons, it's not how you would normally lay them down, at a place setting. They're on their sides.
Tom Scott:
On their sides?
Katelyn:
So that you're seeing the long view of the spoon. Imagine it on a place setting, but you rotate it on its side.
Evan:
90 degrees, yeah.
Tom Scott:
Then they're almost like... hands holding the avocado? That kind of picture.
Tom Crawford:
It's Scream! It's Scream! It's the Scream piece of art, right?
The face is the avocado and the spoons.
Tom Scott:
Oh, well done!
Katelyn:
It looked like The Scream by Edvard Munch.
Yeah, so during the lockdown, there was a Dutch Instagram account that I'm going to try to pronounce: tussenkunstenquarantaine.
Tom Scott:
(laughs)
Katelyn:
And they did a challenge that was basically: submit your own at-home recreations of famous art pieces. And so this was one of the pieces submitted.
Tom Scott:
That's lovely. Out of nowhere, Tom!
Tom Crawford:
No, not out of nowhere. That was— You gave me that, other Tom. Because when you said the spoons, you said the spoons were like hands holding the avocado.
Katelyn:
And you had your hands like this.
Tom Crawford:
And I was just... I don't know. I think you recreated The Scream for us.
Tom Scott:
Also, I am now "Other Tom" in this call. Thank you for that. That's just...
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Tom Scott:
That's how the dice have rolled. That's my job now.
Katelyn:
Yeah, you have to get one right to become the primary Tom again.
Tom Scott:
(laughs) Alright, next one's from me folks. Good luck.
A special coin has a hand holding a book on one side and some sheep on the other. What three-word phrases are engraved on each side?
And one more time.
A special coin has a hand holding a book on one side and some sheep on the other. What three-word phrases are engraved on each side?
Katelyn:
Three-word phrases engraved on each side.
Evan:
So is it two three-word phrases?
Katelyn:
Yeah, is it two three-word phrases or the same one? Okay, two different three-word phrases.
Evan:
I like book, I like sheep.
Katelyn:
Live, laugh, love.
SFX:
(Evan and Katelyn laugh)
Tom Crawford:
Is it the same hand? Oh, have I— So is it one hand holding a book, and one hand holding a micro sheep?
Tom Scott:
Oh, no, one side is hand holding a book, the other side is sheep.
Tom Crawford:
Okay, alright.
Tom Scott:
And I'm just gonna put a flag in Evan's "I like book, I like sheep". Because it's not that, but we're gonna come back to it later.
Evan:
(laughs)
Katelyn:
Okay, it's Latin for "I like books, I like sheep".
SFX:
(group laughing)
Katelyn:
I'm also trying to think of like, where this coin...
Evan:
Special coin.
Katelyn:
Where you would find this coin. Is it a coin from a certain country? Is it a collectible coin you'd get from a museum or a library?
Evan:
Yeah, it could be one of those, you know, collectibles, where you stick in a penny, and you crush it into a new shape
Katelyn:
It could also be that.
Evan:
and create a new coin. Or it could be actual usable currency.
Tom Crawford:
What's the link between a sheep... and someone holding, well, a hand holding a book?
Katelyn:
The intro of Beauty and the Beast.
Evan:
There's a sheep in the Beauty and the Beast?
Katelyn:
I'm pretty sure there's sheep when she's frolicking through the town. I'm pretty sure there's a sheep. She's definitely holding a book. I'm 90% sure there's sheep.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Tom Scott:
It's not a Disney collectible. I can rule that one out if you like.
Tom Crawford:
Okay.
Evan:
So we have no clue what the language is. It could be any language. It could be...
Tom Scott:
Oh, we're not that cruel. I'll tell you it's English. We're not that cruel on Lateral.
Evan:
English. Okay, okay, okay.
Katelyn:
Okay, okay. That's good.
Evan:
Okay.
Tom Crawford:
I think if I'm holding a book, and then there's a sheep... Am I reading a manual with instructions on how to be a farmer? Am I reading... learning how to knit? I... I don't know. Instructions on how to look after a pet sheep. Maybe it's a recipe! Maybe it's dark, and it's make lamb stew!
Evan:
Is there a children's book?
Tom Crawford:
Little Bo Peep?
Katelyn:
Baa Baa Black Sheep? Well, that's a poem. Or a nursery rhyme.
Tom Scott:
The book is open, but you can't really read what's on it, other than the three-word inscription.
Katelyn:
Are the three words on the book, or are they elsewhere on the coin?
Tom Scott:
I've got a little picture of it. They are on the book, but they're not part of the book, if that makes sense.
Katelyn:
Okay, okay. So they're just overlaid onto the book.
Tom Scott:
Yeah.
Katelyn:
But they're not part of the book.
Tom Crawford:
Could it be something to do with the Bible? I feel like there are a lot of shepherds in the Bible.
Tom Scott:
Oh!
Tom Crawford:
Or, you know, or the Torah or something else from that kind of time. You know, going back 2,000 years.
Tom Scott:
If I tell you that the side with the sheep also shows a couple of feet poking out from a blanket... that might be a clue.
Tom Crawford:
(laughs)
Evan:
What?!
Katelyn:
Okay, this is all about coziness.
Evan:
A couple of feet. So two feet.
Katelyn:
Two feet.
Tom Scott:
Yep.
Evan:
Sticking out from a blanket?
Tom Scott:
Mhm.
Evan:
Oh wait. Is it a sleepy time poem?
Tom Scott:
Why do you think sleepy time?
Evan:
Well, 'cause there's books about counting sheep to go to sleep.
Tom Crawford:
Is it like a— Is it when you're about to go to bed, and it's like, I don't know... It is like a game you play, where you flip the coin. And if it lands on the book side, you read a book. And if it lands on the sheep side, you count sheep.
Tom Scott:
You've got most of it there.
Evan:
What?
Tom Scott:
Yes.
Katelyn:
Okay, so we need to think of the words, so... Count some sheep, read a book?
Tom Scott:
Yes...? What dilemma might you be resolving here?
Katelyn:
Oh, you can't sleep.
Tom Crawford:
How to fall asleep.
Tom Scott:
Imagine a really avid reader here, or someone with a really good book. You're not reading to go to sleep.
Tom Crawford:
Keep on reading, or go to sleep.
Tom Scott:
Correct, yes.
Tom Crawford:
You flip it.
Katelyn:
Ohh!
Evan:
Ohh! Go to sleep.
Tom Scott:
Yes. Well...
Katelyn:
Or keep on reading.
Tom Crawford:
Go to sleep.
Tom Scott:
Yeah, the exact words are "go to bed" and "one more chapter." But yes, that is...
Katelyn:
(laughs triumphantly)
Evan:
(applauds)
Tom Scott:
It is a coin you can buy from someone on Etsy that lets you flip there to decide whether you just go to sleep and start counting sheep... or whether you are just gonna do one more chapter.
Evan:
Wow!
Tom Crawford:
I do not know how we got that.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Tom Scott:
That was teamwork.
Evan, you made the connection to sleep. Tom, you made the connection to reading.
Yes, you've got it absolutely right.
It is a comm— not really a commemorative coin, but a coin to give to the book reader who's still awake at 2 am, just wanting to do one more chapter.
Tom, it is over to you for the next question.
Tom Crawford:
Okay, so my question is as follows:
The logo for the UEFA Euro 2024 championships was the trophy surrounded by a band of 24 stripes around the trophy. These stripes were red, yellow, green, black, white, and blue, with repeats. What was their meaning?
So there's a lot going on. So I will repeat the question.
Evan:
Wow.
Tom Scott:
Yeah.
Katelyn:
Yeah.
Tom Scott:
Okay.
Tom Crawford:
Okay.
The logo for the UEFA Euro 2024 championships – so football tournament – was the trophy surrounded by a band of 24 stripes around the trophy. These stripes were red, yellow, green, black, white, and blue, with some repeats. What was their meaning?
Katelyn:
I mean, my first instinct is that the... You said, did you say, was this an international tournament trophy?
Tom Scott:
Yeah, the Euros are the every four year... World Cup, but just for Europe, of soccer.
Katelyn:
So my first instinct is that the colors either have to correspond to flags of some sort, or the jersey colors.
Tom Scott:
Yeah, because 24 feels like the number of teams that are going to be in a tournament like that. But also, 24 is the year.
Tom Crawford:
They are both correct statements.
Tom Scott:
(laughs heartily)
Katelyn:
Oh. Huh.
Evan:
So do you put them together in some way?
Katelyn:
Well, I'm also like, if I'm just picturing jerseys in general, and I am not a big sports person here, but I feel like the color palettes are like, there are often repeated colors.
Evan:
Yes, yes.
Katelyn:
It'll just be like yellow with white, versus yellow with black, or, you know, whatever. But you're not getting a lot of... nuanced colors.
Evan:
Burgundy, fuchsia.
Tom Scott:
I was thinking it might be like... (snickers) a fossil record of the team colours of whoever won each year. You're starting at 2000 and going 24, but also... the tournament's been going... No, that makes no sense, because it's every four years. That's a stupid idea. That's...
Evan:
(chuckles)
Tom Scott:
They don't hold this every year. And also, there are going to be a lot of countries who are going to be annoyed that their colour is not precisely right on there.
Katelyn:
For the colors, is there a certain pattern that they're repeated in? Or is it seemingly random when you look at it?
Tom Crawford:
I think if you were to look at it, it's not repeated. So it's not— The order I've read out, the order I read out the colours, is not repeated in any way. But it's not random. There is a meaning to the ordering of the colours.
Evan:
Katelyn, as a graphic designer...
Tom Scott:
(laughs)
Evan:
I'm just trying to picture this in my head. It looks bulky and clunky.
The trophy, and then 24 bands of color. That's a decent amount of space.
How would you go about it? Would they be thick? Would they be thin? And how— What— You know—
From the graphic designer perspective... why would you do something like that?
Katelyn:
I mean, the only reason you would do it is because your client's like, "I really want to represent X meaning."
SFX:
(Evan and Tom Scott laugh)
Tom Scott:
Yes!
Katelyn:
And so you just try to make it work. So, I mean, we're definitely onto something with the stripes representing something. 'Cause, yeah, otherwise, no one... I don't think anyone would design it that way, with so much bulk and detail. That's not great for a logo.
Evan:
So much bulk. No.
Tom Scott:
Something that is obvious to a Brit who saw some of the Euros this year is that it's not teams playing. It's countries playing.
These are national teams competing, not... It's England, not Manchester United.
Evan:
Ah, okay.
Katelyn:
Okay.
Evan:
Okay, interesting. Thanks for the additional context.
Tom Scott:
I don't think it's going to help, but...
SFX:
(Evan and Tom Crawford laugh)
Katelyn:
I mean, the random order does make me wonder if you were onto something earlier, if it does have to do—
Tom Scott:
—with historical record or something.
Katelyn:
Yeah, because otherwise, why would it be in a random order?
Tom Scott:
Unless it's representing the countries in geographical order? If the stripes are vertical, and they go west to east, you've got 24 countries by which order you go? I don't know where I was going with that, but, ah!
Tom Crawford:
So, if I can maybe describe the logo.
Tom Scott:
Mhm.
Tom Crawford:
Possibly.
Katelyn:
Okay.
Tom Crawford:
So, you have the trophy in the centre... and then, which is just kind of... a typical trophy shape. (laughs) And then, behind it, imagine there's kind of a big oval. And then coming out of the centre of the oval is the 24 stripes.
Tom Scott:
Oh, so it's like a sunburst effect.
Tom Crawford:
Yes, like a sunburst kind of...
Evan:
Oh.
Katelyn:
Oh.
Evan:
That's not as ugly as I thought.
Katelyn:
I was picturing concentric rings.
Evan:
Yeah, I was thinking that too.
Katelyn:
Okay.
Tom Crawford:
No, like a sunburst... Yeah, so if you... Yeah, imagine a circle, and then slicing it up into thin 24 triangular pizza slice segments. (laughs)
Katelyn:
Are all—
Tom Crawford:
But it's a bit more oval.
Tom Scott:
What country was it held in this year? Was it Germany? I think it was Germany this year.
Tom Crawford:
Yeah.
Tom Scott:
So, I'm thinking... rather than time, space. So, each of these stripes points in the direction of a country that was in the contest?
Because Germany is... It's not central central, but there's— I can think of countries that are north, south, east, and west from it.
So they've just kind of... picked vaguely the right direction, and the colour represents that country's team?
Tom Crawford:
I love the idea, but how... What colour would you pick? How would you select the colour?
Just to follow through your idea, how would you select the colour?
Evan:
From their flag?
Katelyn:
Or their jersey color?
Tom Scott:
So is it like national colour... No, because then the Netherlands will be angry that orange is not on it.
Evan:
(laughs)
Katelyn:
Can you list the colors one more time?
Tom Crawford:
Yes, absolutely. Red, yellow, green, black, white, and blue.
So, just to come back to something you mentioned, other Tom.
Tom Scott:
Dammit.
Tom Crawford:
The Netherlands...
SFX:
(both Toms laugh)
Tom Crawford:
You started it now. I did it by accident.
Tom Scott:
I know, I know. It's gonna be a thing. It's gonna be a thing.
Tom Crawford:
So you said orange for the Netherlands, but that's gonna be their kit.
So if you kinda focus more on the flag... What would be the colours of the Netherlands flag?
Tom Scott:
Well, the colours of the Netherlands flag are blue, white, red, I think? Horizontal?
Tom Crawford:
Ye-huh.
Katelyn:
So many flags do have multiple colors, so I don't know if one stripe—
Evan:
How would you reduce each country to one color?
Katelyn:
Yeah, I don't know if one stripe equals...
Tom Scott:
Unless someone did something really clever... and made it that every country... has all its colours in the right order or something close to it.
Because England has a cross on its flag, so that doesn't quite count.
But, no matter which country you're from, you can look around those 24 bands, and somewhere, you will see your flag. And if colours happen to match, you can just... They can merge two of them together, because it doesn't matter what country. You'll see your flag in there somewhere.
Tom Crawford:
Yes, exactly that.
Tom Scott:
(sighs)
SFX:
(Evan and Katelyn applaud)
Tom Crawford:
(laughs) Exactly that.
Tom Scott:
Well done to that designer.
Tom Crawford:
And I like how you said "someone's done something very clever" because I also thought this was very clever.
So it's not just all 24 nations who are in the tournament. It's actually all 55 UEFA member nations are represented, but they... I think it was 24 stripes because there were 24 in the tournament.
But yes, all of them appear, although there's a little bit of artistic license. So Ireland, who do have orange, it's orange/gold/yellow.
Tom Scott:
Right.
Tom Crawford:
And it's represented by yellow. So there is a little bit of artistic license.
Evan:
(laughs)
Tom Crawford:
But yeah, they're all there. All 55 UEFA member nations are around in a loop around the trophy. It's very clever.
Tom Scott:
Thank you to A.W. for sending this question in.
A security company in one country supplies alarm systems to local customers. However, they are fitted with SIM cards issued in a neighbouring country. Why?
I'll give you that one more time.
A security company in one country supplies alarm systems to local customers. However, they're fitted with SIM cards issued in a neighbouring country. Why?
Evan:
I wonder if it's something to do with legal or privacy concerns.
Katelyn:
My first thought was privacy, 'cause... If... (huffs) I mean, I don't know how this would work, but if someone was... trying to hack into your security system... they would assume that all the parts are from your local country.
Evan:
Yeah.
Katelyn:
Maybe, I don't know.
Evan:
But it's strange because SIM cards are for... wireless connections. And the radios need to connect to towers. So it's weird that SIM cards would be from another country connecting to local towers, unless the towers were also from another country.
Tom Scott:
Yeah, should we establish what a SIM card is here?
Evan:
(guffaws)
Tom Crawford:
The thing you put in your phone.
Tom Scott:
Yeah, well, I mean, not everyone listening will understand what that is, so Tom?
Tom Crawford:
Okay, what is a SIM card? A SIM card is the little chip that goes inside your mobile phone... that then gives you your data or your phone number, to allow you to then connect to... the cloud, the internet, the magic thing that allows us to talk to everybody else.
Evan:
Yeah, but SIM cards aren't only in cell phones. They're in all sorts of smart enabled devices now. Not just security systems, but also terminals and, you know, monitoring devices and all sorts of stuff, so...
Tom Crawford:
So like giving you... Here, it's like giving you access to the internet or giving you access to communication... without relying on the internet, right? Without relying on...
Oh, 'cause someone could cut the power to your house, and then you want it to still work. So you could still have a SIM card to send out a signal, right?
Tom Scott:
Yeah.
Tom Crawford:
Okay. So that's clever. I like that as a part of the alarm system.
Tom Scott:
Yeah.
Katelyn:
Does it have to do with who is monitoring the alarm system and what country they're in?
Tom Crawford:
So could the company installing the alarms be from the neighbouring country, but for whatever reason does all their business over the border.
Tom Scott:
No, the local customers are in the same country as the company.
Tom Crawford:
Is it a really, really small country?
Tom Scott:
(laughs)
Tom Crawford:
Is it like a Monaco, or like a Liechtenstein, or a San Marino? One of these principalities where...
Tom Scott:
A.W. did not specify the country in question. And I think that may be because they work in this industry and know this a little more precisely than they're letting on.
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Tom Crawford:
'Cause I'm just wondering, you know, maybe, like in Liechtenstein, you cannot get a company that will install your alarm. So therefore you have to go to neighbouring Switzerland, and they pop over the border and do it for you, and that's maybe why, but...
Tom Scott:
In this case, the two countries involved don't matter. Just that they're fairly close.
Evan:
I wonder if it has to do with state monitoring or... privacy concerns. That's what my mind keeps on going back to.
Tom Crawford:
Yeah.
Evan:
For some reason. Maybe just 'cause I'm paranoid.
Katelyn:
Or would it be somewhere where... it's just not cost effective to produce SIM cards in that country?
Tom Scott:
Actually, this method is a little more costly. But it's also much more effective.
Katelyn:
Okay. That makes me think it does go back to the actual privacy or security or something. There's a functional reason for it.
Evan:
But other Tom said effective.
Katelyn:
Yeah, it is more effective.
Tom Crawford:
So therefore... could it be that the country where you're installing the alarm has a terrible communications network?
Right, maybe their system of towers, as Evan said, maybe their system of towers is just awful. So they're like, "But we can put a SIM card in from a different country and use their really good network, so we can get the alarm quicker."
Tom Scott:
If the network's in the other country... you're not gonna be able to connect to it though.
Evan:
Some cards of country A are installed in country B.
Tom Scott:
Mhm.
Evan:
But they must be using towers in country B because the range of towers is only measured in miles.
Tom Scott:
Yeah.
Katelyn:
So it's not about where they can connect. There's some other reason.
Tom Scott:
Have a think about what happens when you travel to another country.
Evan:
Roaming charges.
Tom Scott:
Mhm.
SFX:
(Evan and Katelyn laugh)
Tom Crawford:
So the company, okay.
Evan:
'Cause Tom was saying it's more expensive... but it's better.
Tom Scott:
Yeah.
Tom Crawford:
So are they purposefully making their customers pay roaming charges, so that they make more money?
Tom Scott:
You've got the first part. It's not about the charges, but they are purposefully roaming. It's gonna be more expensive, but why?
Tom Crawford:
Okay, the roaming thing I feel like is a big clue. So, if you're roaming, then your location to someone hacking into the system will not be given away.
So if someone hacks into your alarm system, they won't know where your house is. Because you're roaming. So they'll think you're in a different country than the one you're in. So it's more secure.
Katelyn:
Is there something about the roaming that's more reliable for some reason? I don't—
Tom Scott:
Yes. Yes, there is. What might that be?
Evan:
When you're roaming... In the US, there are, you know, three or four major carriers.
And if I have a SIM card for carrier A, I can't connect to carrier B, C, and D.
But when you're roaming, I think you connect to all of them, and you just pay a little bit of an extra fee.
Katelyn:
So therefore, there's more redundancy, so it's more reliable.
Evan:
Yes.
Tom Scott:
Spot on. You are absolutely right, Evan.
So this is deliberate roaming.
Yeah, I mean, say it was the UK, you could buy a SIM card for any one of, I think, five big networks we've got. But if that goes down, there's no backup. If you have a card from France, or the Netherlands, or whatever's nearby...
Evan:
(snaps fingers)
Tom Scott:
you won't be able to connect to all of them, but they will have multiple arrangements. They will be able to connect to multiple networks. And when the most important thing is it works no matter what... that is why they use SIM cards from another country.
Evan:
(applauds) Wow. Sometimes I don't know how we get to these answers.
SFX:
(both Toms laugh)
Evan:
But we somehow do.
SFX:
(Katelyn and Evan laugh)
Katelyn:
It's just a team effort chipping away.
Evan:
Yeah.
SFX:
(laughter subsides)
Tom Scott:
Evan, with that, it is over to you for your question.
Evan:
This question has been sent in by Greg Weller.
During a typical workday, Ruth will repeatedly use words such as Redwood, Dragon, Springbok, Dynasty, and Shamrock. What is her job, and what do these words represent?
I'll say that again.
During a typical workday, Ruth will repeatedly use words such as Redwood, Dragon, Springbok, Dynasty, and Shamrock. What is her job, and what do these words represent?
Tom Scott:
Tom and Katelyn... I'm afraid this one's on you.
Katelyn:
You know it?
Tom Scott:
I do know it, sorry.
Evan:
Oh.
Tom Crawford:
Alright.
Katelyn:
Okay. I mean, my first instinct was... trying to put these words together in some sort of... "Oh, she's an author, and she's writing about dragons and forests and stuff." But I feel like it's probably not that obvious. And I wonder if these are codewords for something. Project Springbok. Project Shamrock.
Tom Crawford:
(giggles)
Katelyn:
I don't know.
Tom Crawford:
So my first thought was... Are they to do with certain countries? So for me, the Shamrock and the Springbok.
Katelyn:
What is a—
Tom Crawford:
Springbok is the... South Africa. It's like a deer, gazelle-like creature.
Katelyn:
Oh, okay. I didn't know what that was.
Tom Crawford:
I only know it because the rugby team are called the Springboks.
Katelyn:
Okay.
Evan:
(chuckles)
Tom Crawford:
Don't know why I know that but...
SFX:
(guests chuckling)
Katelyn:
I mean, in that case, it could be country related. Can you go through the words one more time?
Evan:
I'll say... I'll emphasize one thing. She'll repeatedly use words such as... Redwood, Dragon, Springbok, Dynasty, and Shamrock.
Katelyn:
Okay, so—
Evan:
These are just examples. These are just one, two, three, four, five examples of such words.
Katelyn:
And she uses these words multiple times a day in her workday?
Evan:
Repeatedly, yes.
Katelyn:
Repeatedly.
Tom Crawford:
So they're pretty niche words.
Katelyn:
Yeah.
Tom Crawford:
At least some of them.
Katelyn:
Yeah. They're pretty specific. They're not... words with multiple meanings.
Tom Crawford:
So would it be a teaching style thing? I'm assuming it's not just teaching people English or something.
SFX:
(Evan and Katelyn laugh)
Tom Crawford:
But I wonder whether they are examples of a specific type of word or a specific pronunciation that means there's a teaching element to it.
Katelyn:
Yeah. And what do these words have in common? Is there any throughline? Going back to your example of teaching someone English... Like if... If you're using words that are not said the way that they're spelled, if you have like Neighbor and Colonel and, you know, then that would make sense. But I'm trying to think if there's anything linking these words.
Evan:
I'll just jump in here. The funniest thing is... Both of you started in a very good place. And you guys have wandered very far away.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Katelyn:
Okay, so, going back to countries.
Evan:
You started out, I was like, I'm not gonna need to use any of these clues.
Tom Scott:
Mhm, yep.
Evan:
And you went in a totally different direction. I just saw Tom's face go, just... "Oh, they're wandering farther and farther."
Katelyn:
(laughs)
Evan:
Okay.
Tom Scott:
Thank you for not calling me "other Tom". I appreciate it.
SFX:
(Katelyn and Evan laugh)
Tom Crawford:
I got confused.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Tom Crawford:
I was like, I don't think I said anything.
Katelyn:
Okay, so that makes me think that we were maybe onto something with the countries. Like these being words to represent countries.
Tom Crawford:
And you said author. And you mentioned something about her being an author and writing. And Evan said we were both onto something good. So, who would be writing about specific countries?
Evan:
(guffaws)
Katelyn:
(giggles)
Tom Scott:
I'll be honest. The only thing you've got so far is countries.
Evan:
Okay.
Katelyn:
Countries, countries! We can latch on to that.
Evan:
I'll give one thing.
Tom Crawford:
Alright.
Evan:
One clue. It's important that Ruth says these words clearly.
Katelyn:
Okay, so she's communicating with someone that might have a hard time understanding her if she didn't communicate clearly. So that could mean through a radio... or it could mean someone that doesn't speak English. Although we kind of went down that route, and Evan was like, "No, you're going the wrong way." So maybe radio?
SFX:
(both chuckle)
Katelyn:
It would be hard to understand her.
Tom Crawford:
I was about to say, is it like... not, what is it, the phonetic? Not the phonetic alphabet. The one where it starts: Alpha, Bravo.
Katelyn:
Alpha, Bravo.
Tom Scott:
That's phonetic, yeah.
Tom Crawford:
Okay, but then I was like, I don't think D is Dragon, or there's another. So maybe not.
Evan:
You were onto something when you said... When you're talking about South African... simplifying down to Springbok and everything. That was a really good link right there.
Tom Crawford:
Okay... I don't know why this has popped into my head. Is it something to do with air traffic control? And you have a codename for the country, and Springbok would be something to do with South Africa?
Evan:
Correct, you got it! Springbok is South African Airlines.
Katelyn had it with radiolink. These are said over the radio. They need to be said clearly.
Also, you said... One of your first things is "Maybe these words are codenames or shorthand."
Katelyn:
Yeah.
Evan:
So it's like, you had it so close in the beginning, like shorthand for country, airlines, and stuff like that.
Tom Scott:
(laughs heartily)
Evan:
Now, before I answer fully and reveal everything, do you want to guess what... the other words are shorthand for? Redwood...
Tom Scott:
Oh man.
Evan:
Do you have any ideas of what airline?
Tom Crawford:
California.
Evan:
Yes, yes!
Tom Crawford:
California something.
Evan:
Virgin Atlantic.
Katelyn:
Okay.
Evan:
Due to its base in California, home of the redwood trees.
Tom Scott:
Huh.
Evan:
Okay, Dragon.
Tom Crawford:
I want to say Wales, but I don't think they have an airline.
SFX:
(both Toms laugh)
Tom Crawford:
Welsh Air.
Evan:
It's very close. Dragon Air. So it's Hong Kong, yeah. So, you got Springbok, South African Airlines. So for Shamrock, what do you think Shamrock would be?
Tom Crawford:
Ireland?
Tom Scott:
That's gotta be Aer Lingus.
Evan:
Yep, Aer Lingus. That's it. You guys are good! So to summarize—
Tom Scott:
So, hang on. We still had... Dynasty?
Katelyn:
Dynasty.
Evan:
Oh, Dynasty is... Do you wanna guess what Dynasty is?
Tom Scott:
Texas, it's gonna be, I'm thinking— Or have I got it confused with Dallas? The word Dynasty is that old drama.
Katelyn:
We live in Texas, so I feel like I should know it.
Tom Scott:
Is there an airline based in Texas?
Katelyn:
Is Southwest based in Texas?
Tom Crawford:
Could it be Air China?
Evan:
(snaps fingers) That's it! Air China, China Airlines!
Tom Scott:
Oh, yeah!
Katelyn:
Ahh.
Evan:
So to summarize: Those were all call signs used by air traffic controllers as a shorter way of referring to an airline.
Tom Scott:
Which just leaves us with the question from the start of the show.
Thank you to Anson Wong for sending this in.
In ice hockey, what three things make up a Gordie Howe hat trick?
Anyone want to take a guess?
Tom Crawford:
A goal, an assist, and being sent off.
Tom Scott:
Whoo, you're... It's not being sent off. You've got the first two.
Katelyn:
Oh?
Tom Crawford:
Sin bin! Sin bin!
Tom Scott:
(wheezes)
Tom Crawford:
Hockey! Sin bin!
Tom Scott:
Go even more stereotypical.
Tom Crawford:
Fight.
Katelyn:
A fight.
Tom Scott:
Yes, that is correct.
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Tom Scott:
A goal, an assist, and a fight is a Gordie Howe hat trick.
SFX:
(Katelyn and Evan applaud)
Tom Scott:
This is from the 1950s.
Gordie Howe played 1,767 NHL games from 1949 to 1980. He retired at the age of 52.
He's their second all-time highest goal scorer for the entire NHL.
And he only did the hat trick twice in his own career.
Tom Crawford:
I wonder how many fights he had.
Tom Scott:
I mean, apparently a lot.
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Tom Crawford:
Is it more or less than his number of goals and assists?
Tom Scott:
(laughs)
Tom Crawford:
I'm assuming less.
Tom Scott:
Thank you very much to all of our players. Congratulations on getting through the questions.
What's going on in your lives? Where can people find you?
We will start with Tom.
Tom Crawford:
Tom Rocks Maths, or Tom Crawford, will lead you to the various things that I do. So if you want to learn some maths, just give it a Google. Tom Rocks Maths.
Tom Scott:
And I feel strange treating two players as a single entity, but it is literally in your channel name. (laughs)
Evan and Katelyn, what's going on with you?
Evan:
We have too many channels these days. So just search Evan and Katelyn on YouTube and see what pops up.
Tom Scott:
And Katelyn, what sort of things are you working on in the next few months?
Katelyn:
Well, our pumpkin video should be out. So you can see if the pumpkin survives the resin.
And we're also doing an office makeover. We're doing something normal for once.
Evan:
Yeah, yeah.
Tom Scott:
(laughs)
Evan:
Back to our roots.
Katelyn:
(chuckles)
Tom Scott:
Well, thank you very much to all of you.
If you want to know more about this show, you can do that at lateralcast.com, where you can also send in your own ideas for questions. We are at @lateralcast basically everywhere, and you can get video highlights at youtube.com/lateralcast.
Thank you very much to Evan and Katelyn.
SFX:
(both applaud)
Katelyn:
Yay!
Evan:
Thanks for having us.
Tom Scott:
To Tom Crawford.
Tom Crawford:
Loved it, thank you.
Tom Scott:
I've been "Other Tom" Scott, and that's been Lateral.
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