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Episode 119: A horse/deer dilemma
Published 17th January, 2025
Julian O’Shea, Dani Siller and Bill Sunderland face questions about fallen food, accidental advertising and cricketing circumstances.
HOST: Tom Scott. QUESTION PRODUCER: David Bodycombe. EDITED BY: Julie Hassett at The Podcast Studios, Dublin. MUSIC: Karl-Ola Kjellholm ('Private Detective'/'Agrumes', courtesy of epidemicsound.com). ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS: Mike Sylvia, Rickard Dybeck, Paige, Martijn Pennings, Kay, Kristin, Allison Macrae. FORMAT: Pad 26 Limited/Labyrinth Games Ltd. EXECUTIVE PRODUCERS: David Bodycombe and Tom Scott.
Transcript
Transcription by Caption+
Tom:
In cricket, how might a batsman be unfortunate enough to convert an Audi into an Olympic?
The answer to that at the end of the show. My name's Tom Scott, and this is Lateral.
If a tree falls in a forest, and no one's around to hear it, does it make a sound? More importantly, does the forest sue for property damage? And if the lawyer takes their case, will they work 'pro bough-no'?
Bill:
No, try that one again. That doesn't make any sense.
SFX:
(Dani and Julian laugh)
Tom:
Here's​ the thing. There is a note after that in my script, from Producer David, that just says in brackets: "I don't think this works."
SFX:
(guests laugh uproariously)
Julian:
Tho​ugh it was gonna say, "Guests will groan at this point," yeah.
Tom:
(laughs) Ready to branch out into new directions today, we have the return of the all-Australian special.
And we start today with the folks from Escape This Podcast: Bill Sunderland, Dani Siller. Welcome back to the show. Which one of you wants to plug the podcast first?
Bill:
Aussi​e, Aussie, Aussie!
Tom:
(laughs heartily)
Julian:
Oi,​ oi, oi.
Bill:
There​ we go! Dani, why don't you go?
Dani:
Oh, I just wanted to advertise our new foliage lawyer business. And say that Tom, we're available for this case.
Tom:
(laughs)
Bill:
Mm.
Tom:
If you need injunctive re-leaf.
Bill:
Ha-ha​a!
Tom:
Oh, that actually got—
Bill:
It's the leaf part.
Tom:
It's the leaf part.
Bill:
So we have two shows, by the way.
We have Escape Th— people— We've got Escape This Podcast. We got Solve This Murder.
We make a lot of puzzles and mysteries, and we solve a bunch of them ourselves, and we have a lot of guests on to solve them as well. That is our general shtick in life.
Tom:
Dani, you intimated a while back, there may be something new coming. And given this episode is coming out a few weeks after we record it, is there anything coming up for the Escape This Podcast crew?
Dani:
It's entirely possible that it's out right now, which is that the other project that we've spent the last year working on is the game Rise of the Golden Idol, a sequel to an amazing game that we didn't work on, Case of the Golden Idol.
Tom:
Is this podcast, video game, board game?
Dani:
Oh, this is a video game. A real life video game. We've never done that before, but it's been going well, and we're super excited. Or I am! You can tell that I am!
Bill:
My description of the game for anyone who hasn't played the original is: it is a series of murder mysteries and/or general mysteries solved through Mad Libs. It's a lot of blank-blank to the blank with the blank and then he blanked the blank, and you've got to find the words and fill them in and solve puzzles and mysteries and tell a story as you do it.
It's fan— It's— We're really proud of how it's come around, and we've been really happy to be part of the writing and development team for it.
Tom:
That should be out now, soon?
Dani:
It's likely out right now.
Bill:
If this episode is out after November of 2024.
Tom:
Oh, definitely, yep.
Bill:
All fingers crossed, this game is out now.
Tom:
I appreciate the caveat you put on that.
Bill:
You never know!
Tom:
What was the name of that one more time? Might as well plug it while you can.
Bill:
The Rise of the Golden Idol.
Tom:
Well, very best of luck to you with that, and on the show today.
You are joined by the other returning Australian from the last Aussie special that we had:
Julian O'Shea, a YouTuber talking about city design in Melbourne. How are you doing?
Julian:
I'm​ doing great. It's great to be here.
Tom:
Last time you were on the show, the three of you managed to solve a lot of questions very quickly. How do you feel about coming back and doing one more episode?
Julian:
Mat​e, here's the secret.
What you do is you become a barnacle, and you just join onto other smart people, and you just ride the glory.
SFX:
(others laughing)
Julian:
Yes​, all three of us did very well. Yes, all three of us did a great job.
Tom:
Given that Bill and Dani plugged (laughs) their stuff as well, Julian, what are you working on right now that's going to be out by the time this show comes out?
Julian:
I'v​e been working also for the last year on a series called Design Revolution, which has been a YouTube funded series, which is coming out. It's a lot of explainers, a lot of silly designs and builds. I, for example, do a 360-degree scan of myself and turn me into a... wacky, waving-arm inflatable tube man.
SFX:
(Tom and Dani laugh)
Julian:
And​ all kinds of other silly, silly things, so... Julian O'Shea on YouTube.
Tom:
Well, good luck to all three of you on the show. Although, given the performance last time, I'm not going to wish you too much luck, because I would like this show to be longer than 20 minutes. So, very best of luck to all of you.
Dani:
Oh, you!
Tom:
I do have the remaining tree section of my introduction to read now. So, do brace yourselves. Here's a question for you. Why don't trees like difficult riddles?
Bill:
It stumps them. They all get stumped.
Tom:
Congra​tulations, Bill, that is a better answer than what's on my card, and I'm not going to read this. Let us head for the leafy pastures of question one.
This question has been sent in by Kay. Thank you very much.
In 2020, a restaurant chain displayed pictures of their food covered in mould. As a result, sales actually went up. Why?
I'll say that again.
In 2020, a restaurant chain displayed pictures of their food covered in mould. As a result, sales actually went up. Why?
Julian:
Now​, I did see a invention, which was a sandwich zip-lock bag, right? And it had mould printed on the outside. So what you would do –
Dani:
Oh, I'd seen that!
Julian:
–​ is you'd put your sandwich inside, leave it in the lunch break room, and no one is stealing your sandwich.
Bill:
That'​s perfect.
Dani:
And so a restaurant can do this. They give you your bowl of food and then put a layer of plastic that looks like mould on top, so that if you go to the bathroom, the other people at your table won't steal it.
Julian:
Yea​h, or if you do takeaway at home, those cheeky roommates of yours are not getting their hand on your funky pad thai.
Tom:
I apologise for telling this story, but it is one of the most disgusting but logical things I've seen. Which— and the kid was a teenager. He's 14 or 15, he could get away with this. He did not want anyone stealing any of his chips and nachos.
So he just spat slightly into the nacho cheese as he went off to the bathroom. Because his theory was, "it's all going in my mouth anyway, and no one else will check it." But at the same time, that managed to make everyone at the... This was a bowling alley. This is how much this has burned into my memory. Everyone else at the bowling lane just going (hurk) just a little.
And none of us could rationally work out why! Just some primal disgust response to that.
Julian:
It'​s such a, you know, teenager kind of attitude. I just imagine having brothers nearby and just licking every single chip. You know, just making full eye contact. Just like...
Dani:
I get it.
Julian:
If this bothers me, but it bothers you more.
Tom:
Right!
Dani:
Now, I'm not a big mould eater, but there are some foods that are supposed to have mould on them. Cheese restaurant? Cheese restaurant?
Julian:
Oh,​ yeah.
Bill:
Yeah,​ it's like Cheesecake Factory. But with a blue cheese cheesecake.
Tom:
Oh, oh, no.
Dani:
They use blue cheese ice cream on Masterchef sometimes when they're making pizza.
Tom:
I apologise to everyone who's listening to this show while eating.
Bill:
(cackles softly)
Tom:
This was a rough first question if you were sitting down for dinner at this point.
Dani:
And on to the maggot question.
SFX:
(scattered snickering)
Tom:
Oh no.
Julian:
I reckon Tom's being cheeky about the word 'mould' here. 'Cause imagine if he said it, it's like, and then they added... a mossy fungus to the whole thing. But what they really mean is they just put mushrooms on it?
SFX:
(others laughing)
Julian:
Is there a mould, which is actually just a food item that you can... (ch-ka-ch-ka)
Bill:
Would​ this— yeah, 'cause I was thinking... for people... and I think this is fairly big in the UK and Australia as a meat alternative.
Other than the Beyond, there was this Quorn or Quorn if you want to pronounce the U in it.
Dani:
Delic​ious.
Bill:
And that isn't a mould. That's a fungus. But it's like, it's a mushroom thing, but it's grown in a vat.
Dani:
It's a mycoprotein.
Bill:
It's a mycoprotein. And that is a big fungal sort of mass that grows, and it's delicious. Everybody should eat this fungal mass.
Julian:
Is it technically a mould?
Bill:
But I don't think it's technically a mould. But if it is... then is that it? Was it Quorn? Was it Quorn brand?
Tom:
In this case, I am not being cheeky about the word 'mould'. You are picturing exactly the right thing. This is a pretty gross close-up photo of the restaurant's food covered in mould.
Bill:
I want to say I remember this. Oh! I got it.
Tom:
Can you now say that you remember this?
Bill:
I'm pretty sure this was an advertising campaign. I'm gonna say... Maybe it was a Hungry Jack's/Burger King, for all the people who live in the Burger King world.
Tom:
Oh, well done on not just identifying the restaurant, but also translating it out of Australia...
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Tom:
where Burger King could not get the local trademark.
Bill:
Yeah,​ we already had a Burger King. No one's ever eaten there. But we've all eaten Hungry Jack's.
Where they went, "Hey, we have no preservatives. Here's a photo of our burger after five days on a shelf, and it's all mouldy and terrible." And that was their advertising campaign. It's natural food, it goes off.
Tom:
Yes, your memory is spot on. Congratulations.
This was a campaign by advertising agency INGO Stockholm, called the Mouldy Whopper for Burger King slash Hungry Jack's, and the tagline was "The Beauty of No Artificial Preservatives." And they say that it increased sales by 4%.
Now, whether you want to trust an advertising agency's claims on how effective their advertising is, I don't know. Have you ever heard of the McFossil?
Bill:
Ooh.
Dani:
I don't think so.
Bill:
It was a McRib, but they were like, "Hey, you know, one of those frozen... wooly mammoths that we found? We're gonna resurrect it, we're gonna turn it into a McRib."
SFX:
(Dani and Tom laugh)
Julian:
Fli​ntstone style, yeah.
Bill:
Flint​stone style!
Tom:
No, this is a McDonald's burger bought in 1995 that is still intact and mould free.
Dani:
Ohh!
Bill:
Ohh, alright.
Tom:
Whethe​r something has been done to that and its environment, we don't know. But that was particularly what Burger King were pushing back against.
Julian, we will go over to you for the next question.
Julian:
Thi​s question's been sent in by Martijn Pennings.
Etienne from Auckland met a total stranger – Angel Sierra, a chef from Spain – on Reddit. Why did Etienne convince Angel to drop some food on the ground at a specific time?
I'll say that again.
Etienne from Auckland met a total stranger – Angel Sierra, a chef from Spain – on Reddit. Why did Etienne convince Angel to drop some food on the ground at a specific time?
Tom:
Steppi​ng back from this one. I have seen a couple of folks try this over the years.
Bill:
Oh.
Dani:
What?
Bill:
It's just you and me. What are we going to do?
Dani:
(clears throat) Alright.
Bill:
Alrig​ht, Dani.
Dani:
Let's​ put our chef hats on.
Bill:
Angel​ Sierra does not sound like a real name. "I am Angel Sierra, the angel of the mountains." "Alright, okay, I guess."
Dani:
My first thought is this chef friend is having some issues with their health inspectors being overly picky about things that, look, any reasonable restaurant wouldn't actually care that much about.
And so this New Zealander gave them the tip of: "No no no, so what you do is when the health inspector comes in, you deliberately drop a bit of food on the ground, so that they can see you make a big deal of cleaning it up. And so they will acknowledge it."
It's like when you do a driving test, and you've got to really exaggerate your shoulder checks.
Bill:
The health inspector walks in, and before you turn around, you drop a piece of food and you go... "What the hell?"
Dani:
"This​ is the first time this has ever happened!"
Bill:
"In 25 years, no one's ever dropped a piece of food on the ground! Sorry sir, I'll be with you soon. Just sit back. What have you done?"
Tom:
(laughs)
Bill:
"You'​re fired! No one can ever be this dirty in my kitchen!" Is that it? Did we solve it?
Julian:
You​ are not quite right.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Julian:
I'l​l be honest, you are not... That's not it. That's not it.
Dani:
I can't tell from your tone what level of hot or cold we should be working with here.
Julian:
May​be the other side, you know.
Bill:
Okay,​ so let me just re— Let me just try and recount what the situation here is. A New Zealander meets... Did we decide a Spaniard? Did I make that up? Because I heard the names.
Dani:
A little Spanish chef.
Bill:
A Spanish chef, okay. New Zealander meets a Spanish chef and says, "Hey, can you drop a piece of food on the floor for me?" Did it say floor? It just said, drop a piece of food somewhere.
Julian:
On the ground.
Bill:
"Drop​ some food on the ground for me." And presumably the chef said yes. Otherwise the story would be quite boring.
SFX:
(scattered snickering)
Julian:
The​y did do it, yeah.
Bill:
Okay.​ So drop some— Is— Did— Could it be— Here's my pitch, Dani. After your ridiculous pitch.
SFX:
(Tom and Dani laugh)
Bill:
Here'​s my really awesome one. The New Zealander, – like all New Zealanders, fun fact – is a skydiver.
Tom:
(laughs) I wondered where that was going.
Bill:
And they were like, "Hey, I'm going to order some takeout. I'm going to order some takeaway. I'm going to order some" whatever New Zealand is called takeaway. And— "But can you deliver it to where I meant to land? So I can land and then grab the food out of your hands and eat a pad thai from this Thai Spanish chef?"
Dani:
Would​n't it be the skydiver who would have more fun dropping food on the ground?
Bill:
No, they're dropping to the food.
Dani:
But then why would the chef have to drop anything? Think about it, Bill, god!
Bill:
So you think it's a skydiving chef who drops the food, and someone else is going to stand at the bottom and just be like, "Oh man, you know, I'm really hungry. I wish I had a burger right now." And then they put their hand up... and it falls into their hand.
Dani:
This whole thing is falling apart at the seams. You can't leave us alone together.
Bill:
Was that closer? (cracks up)
Julian:
The​re's fewer skydivers than you think involved in this question.
Dani:
(giggles)
Bill:
Alrig​ht.
Dani:
Alrig​ht, now you said ground, which makes me concerned that my in-the-kitchen visual is not right. And there's something more outdoorsy about this. Is that true?
Julian:
The​ location is important.
Dani:
Inter​esting.
Bill:
It was a hunter ordering DoorDash to bait a bear.
SFX:
(Tom and Bill laugh)
Bill:
Okay,​ okay, so, you meet a Spanish chef.
Dani:
'Meet​' is interesting. 'Cause it said they were only talking on Reddit. Did they ever meet in person? I assume this was just—
Bill:
Oh, okay. I know what it is, sorry. As soon as you mentioned Reddit, I know what it is.
Tom:
(cackles)
Bill:
I know what it is. I know what it is. I know what it is. I've got it.
Dani:
I don't trust this one bit.
Bill:
No, I legitimately, I thought they met— I was picturing strangers on a train. I'd forgotten the Reddit part. I thought they were on a journey together one day. But they met online. I know what this is. I know so much that I want you to figure it out.
Dani:
Ah, come on!
Tom:
Ohohoh​o!
Bill:
This is based— I'll give you a hint.
Dani:
Yeah,​ you give me a hint that's going to work for me.
Bill:
The connection... The connection between a New Zealander and a Spaniard is the same connection that we all have to Tom Scott.
Tom:
I mean, not quite as precisely.
Julian:
Not​ exactly.
Bill:
Is it not? It's not an Antipodean...
Tom:
Oh, it absolutely is. But it definitely wouldn't work.
Dani:
Ohhh.
Bill:
'Caus​e I was thinking they would each put a piece of bread on the ground and make an Earth sandwich.
Julian:
If you thought that, Bill, you would be entirely correct.
So to summarise:
An Earth sandwich is the entire planet between two slices of bread exactly on the other side of the globe.
And yes, New Zealand is one of the few places on Earth that has land on the other side, being Spain.
Bill:
There​ you go.
Julian:
Not​ true in the UK and Australia. Well, not exactly true.
Bill:
We gotta be close.
Dani:
As a fun fact, I recently did a small trivia lot of questions specifically about opposite points on the Earth. And I got every question wrong. This was not a strong point of mine.
Tom:
There aren't that many points that this works for.
Dani:
So you'd think I'd have been able to rule them down quite quickly, wouldn't you?
Tom:
Yeah, 'cause the Pacific Ocean takes up almost one half of the entire Earth's surface. If you look at the planet from the right angle, it just looks like a big wet ball with some land on the side.
So there aren't that many places where it matches up, and there are even fewer that you can reasonably get to.
Julian:
And​ then you've got the extra complexity of timing a piece of bread on the other side of the globe.
Bill:
Time zones, am I right?
Julian:
Tha​t's right. So the filling was 12,700 kilometres of globe.
Dani:
Delic​ious, delicious salt and iron.
Julian:
Tha​t's right. And the concept of the Earth sandwich was invented by artist Ze Frank in 2006. And yeah, only around 15% of the Earth has land on the other side. So, it's not that easy to schedule your own Earth sandwich.
Tom:
This question has been sent in by Kristin.
In 2022, how did around 800,000 people from Maryland suddenly start promoting Philippine casinos all over America?
I'll say that again.
In 2022, how did around 800,000 people from Maryland suddenly start promoting Philippine casinos all over America?
Dani:
The fact that the question is 'how' and not 'why' is fascinating.
Tom:
Mm.
Bill:
It's got to be a... a word that matches, like Maryland, they were talking about something else, but that happens to also be the name of Philippine casinos or something.
You know, like Annapolis is Spanish for casino. And so, when they were talking about Annapolis, they were just really talking about casinos in the Philippines.
Dani:
Sure,​ sure. I assume it's Taylor Swift, Manila.
Tom:
That is excellent trivia knowledge. I'm not sure I could have named a single city in Maryland.
Julian:
(chuckles)
Bill:
Oh, the trick— The trick is, it's a fun little bit, because it's Mary-Land with Anna City. Like Annapolis, Maryland. It's a fun— It's an easy way to remember that the capital of Maryland is Annapolis.
Julian:
The​y were not doing this on purpose. They— This was not a— There wasn't a meeting. There wasn't a gathering. We're like, do you know what we should do today? Do you know what, we need a hobby. All 799,999 of us, plus me. Do you know what we should do?
Bill:
And me.
Julian:
I reckon, I reckon.
Bill:
Round​ it out.
Julian:
I reckon. Let's start promoting Philippine cas— 'Cause there was an error. There was a mistake. It's something digital. They were not doing it manually. They were not yard signs. They were not speeches.
Dani:
Some hashtag that's run on in a strange way.
Julian:
A domain that they were sharing for something else suddenly took a spin, either maliciously, accidentally, or a big fat typo somewhere along the way.
Tom:
Julian​, you have identified some of the mechanism. It was a domain name that had expired.
Bill:
Oh, interesting.
Dani:
So what do we know about Baltimore? We've got Baltimore.
Bill:
That'​s Baltimore. That's a Maryland city, good point.
Dani:
Yes, it's got a touch of Washington DC.
Julian:
It'​s a lot of people, so it must be a— Must have been a big source, yeah.
Bill:
That sounds like a town, right? That sounds like the population of a town.
Julian:
Oh,​ of course it is, yeah, I reckon.
Bill:
Right​, 800,000? No, I think they're spread out. I think they live in Philippine Casino, Maryland.
Tom:
(laughs)
Julian:
The​ domain of cityname.org suddenly went to...
Dani:
Ameri​ca also likes their sports teams. Maryland has some of those.
Bill:
The Maryland Badgers.
Julian:
I have heard of sports.
Dani:
The Orioles, the Ravens, those sorts of things.
Tom:
There'​s a surprising amount of Maryland knowledge going on here.
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Dani:
All of it relevant.
Julian:
Oh,​ I've got one. Maryland is in the United States of America.
Dani:
Whoa whoa whoa. Slow down, slow down.
Julian:
We'​re all contributing, I guess is what we're saying.
Dani:
Okay,​ now what do we know about Philippines casinos?
Tom:
But bear in mind, the people from Maryland would have been promoting the Philippine casinos all over America.
Bill:
Oh, all over America.
Julian:
Oh,​ I've got an idea. I've got an idea.
Bill:
Yeah,​ go for it.
Julian:
Num​ber plates. They were driving around on number plates with an expired domain.
Bill:
Oh.
Tom:
Yes.
Bill:
So—​ Oh, that's brilliant.
Dani:
Wait,​ number plates have domains on them?
Bill:
Yeah,​ in Maryland they do.
Julian:
Yea​h.
Tom:
Yeah.
Julian:
But​ if you go there, watch out.
Bill:
They'​re famous for it, those bloody Marylanders.
Tom:
2012, ten years earlier, was the 200th anniversary of "The Star Spangled Banner", the American anthem. It was written in Maryland, by Francis Scott Key, and there was a special edition license plate that you could get if you happened to renew your plates that year.
And it featured on it a US flag, "bombs bursting in air", and "starspangled200.org​".
Dani:
Ohh.
Bill:
Ahh.
Dani:
But after the celebrations were done, they just sorta let it lapse. They let it slide.
Julian:
It feels a bit spare me to start with, to be honest.
Tom:
Theyâ€â€‹”
Julian:
'st​arspangled200'.
Bill:
Yeah,​ I'm not going to that website.
Tom:
They kept the domain running for ten years, and then someone let it expire. And all those plates are still out there.
Dani:
To be fair, there are a lot of Sydneysiders who still have, 'Sydney Olympics' on their number plates, because...
Tom:
(laughs)
Bill:
That'​s true.
Dani:
They said 'Towards 2000' on them. At least I assume that that was based on the Olympics and not just 'woo, millennium'.
Bill:
I'm sure it was probably 'woo, millennium' to be honest.
Julian:
Yea​h, the future's coming. There goes the future. The future's back there!
Tom:
So yes, 800,000 drivers roughly had those license plates at the time when the domain expired. The domain does now point back to the website of the Maryland government. Someone decided to bring it back.
Dani:
Aww.
Tom:
Dani, over to you for the next question.
Dani:
Alrig​ht! This question has been sent in by Paige. Thank you so much.
In 2015, RM and V looked out to see a 'black ocean' appear suddenly in front of them, and began to worry if their career might be over. Why?
One more time.
In 2015, RM and V looked out to see a 'black ocean' appear suddenly in front of them, and began to worry if their career might be over. Why?
Julian:
Suc​h good question reading! You definitely should host a mystery podcast of some sort.
SFX:
(others laughing)
Julian:
Ser​iously, that voice. That, oh.
Bill:
RM and V. Sometimes these Lateral questions get real lateral.
Tom:
Yeah, I assume that if we had the full names there, we would be able to work this out in an instant, but...
Dani:
Just for clarity's sake, because I realise it could be a little unclear when you're just hearing this:
RM is not— That is one figure in this question. It's not R comma M and V. It is one person – RM – and other person – V.
Bill:
Cool.
Tom:
Okay.
Julian:
See​ing an ocean suddenly, that's not— that's a bad day for a lot of people at work, I reckon. Imagine being a childcare worker! You open the door, and the ocean's there, you know, oh! I think there's a lot of jobs where this is a bad day.
Tom:
A black ocean as well, which sounds poetic.
Dani:
Yes, 'black ocean', indeed.
Bill:
Okay,​ I've got the first pitch. We can discuss this and see if it's right. We probably don't need to move on. I think it's probably correct.
The RM is obviously... boot manufacturer RM Williams. And it was like, what are we going to do with all this?
Julian:
Eve​ry one of the Aussies just thought RM Williams, obviously. It's a very niche reference.
Bill:
And it's like, "What are we going to do with all this leftover shoe polish that I've got?" And he's like, "We'll dump into the ocean, and no one will know."
Tom:
(laughs uproariously)
Bill:
And it turned the whole thing black. And everyone went, "RM, and a random person called V, what have you done?" And their careers were over. Are we good? Are we happy with that one?
Dani:
All done, wrap it up.
Julian:
(chuckles) For those that aren't from Australia, we have a niche shoe brand in this country called RM Williams. So, there you go. Honestly, every Aussie brain that heard that question thought—
Bill:
RM, there's only one thing that follows.
Julian:
The​re's only one thing.
Bill:
V is interesting because you would think, right— RM, you're like, maybe it's a person that we would all know, whose name is, you know, Ronald Majors. Great, everyone knows him. They were that black ocean guy.
But V is not a full person's name. So, is this a character? Is it, like, are these characters that we might recognise or know?
Tom:
It feels like this is fictional or poetic, or there's some kind of layer of unreality to this.
Dani:
Yeah,​ it's not fiction. These are real people. But there's a little bit of that feel of persona, I suppose, to these names that we're going with.
Bill:
Is the V stand for Valdez?
Dani:
I have no idea what the V stands for. I personally know them as V.
Bill:
Oh, because I was thinking Exxon Valdez. Some kind of oil spill. I think I've got that right. I think that's an appropriate fact. And they looked out to see a black ocean. They were like, "Oh, that's bad."
Julian:
Or in the "don't spill oil in the ocean" business.
Bill:
That'​s your one job!
Dani:
No, not that kind of grim, thankfully.
Bill:
V for Vendetta. That's a guy called V. He's got knives and a mask.
Dani:
We're​ in one of those realms that has a lot... a very niche, hugely dedicated fan base.
Bill:
Docto​r V, the sequel to Doctor Who.
Dani:
While​ they are in our respective countries... a little more elsewhere.
Bill:
This is K-pop.
Dani:
It is K-pop.
Bill:
Okay.
Tom:
Oh!
Bill:
They saw a Blackpink ocean.
Tom:
How did I not get those as K-pop names? I know those as K— Damn it. Alright, yes, that's—
Julian:
Is 'Black Ocean' capital B, capital O?
Dani:
It is not. It is in inverted commas, but it is not capitalised.
Bill:
That'​s the name of Blackpink fans, and they thought "Our career is over because we're here doing a concert, and everyone's here just cheering for Blackpink." I'm so— This is the extent of my knowledge. I've got BTS, I've got Blackpink, I'm done.
Dani:
You are getting very warm with this sort of thing now.
Julian:
RM and V are two K-poppers. They come out to do a show during a multi-lineup thing. They were meant to be the headline act. They see black ocean and realise "We are no longer the number one group. We're on the way down."
Dani:
And what is black ocean in that story?
Julian:
The​ fans, the fans wearing all black for the different K-pop group.
Dani:
Ooh, you— It's not about them wearing black for another K-pop group, but you are extremely warm.
Bill:
Black​ Ocean is its own K-pop group who was already on the stage and went, "Uhh, guys."
Tom:
Is this just a weird K-pop fandom thing that people turn up wearing black as a... something is wrong, you have made a mistake?
Dani:
It's not about wearing black, but a little bit. This can be a showing disapproval. You're in the right region. So yeah.
Bill:
Big black signs that they hold?
Dani:
Not big black signs. It's more about absence of something.
Tom:
Oh, there just isn't a fan group there. There's just no one outside there.
Bill:
Or they didn't light their phones.
Dani:
You'r​e basically there. Light-up things, like light-up sticks, possibly phones, things like that. Things that would glow and that you would show your support of the band to show, "I'm in the audience. I'm going to be seen."
Tom:
They'r​e just not there.
Julian:
Nil​.
Dani:
And if they want to frown upon a band member or say, "No, I like this other band better," complete darkness.
Tom:
Wow!
Dani:
And it's as if the band is performing to nobody, and it terrifies them. And this is not the most uncommon thing in the world. It's happened a few times to some pretty big bands. RM and V, members of BTS.
Bill:
What did BTS do to get a black ocean?
Dani:
It was just that they were fans of a different group, EXO, or E-X-O.
Tom:
(laughs)
Dani:
And, yep, they went, "Oh, BTS is performing? This is not my band." Like I said, these fans, they are big fans.
Tom:
Yeah.
Julian:
So if you're listening to the show, and not enjoying it, please show your disapproval by holding your phone up in whatever train you're riding on and just, you know, wave it around.
Tom:
Please​ don't do that. Please don't.
I cannot imagine there ever being a K-pop style fandom for podcasts. But if there is, I want nothing to do with it.
SFX:
(Bill and Julian laugh)
Dani:
That'​s terrifying.
So yeah, in K-pop culture, a black ocean is what happens if the audience turns off their lights in a unified show of displeasure.
Julian:
The​y've unionised! The fans have unionised!
SFX:
(group laughing)
Tom:
This question was sent in by Allison Macrae. Thank you, Allison.
In 207 BC, Zhao Gao brought a deer to court and presented it to the Emperor of China, claiming it was a horse. Doing so helped him gain enormous power. How?
I'll say that one more time.
In 207 BC, Zhao Gao brought a deer to court and presented it to the Emperor of China, claiming it was a horse. Doing so helped him gain enormous power. How?
Bill:
I have an opening pitch, but I'm going to hold off a little, just in case it's a good pitch.
Julian:
Yea​h, Dani, what's the animal you normally bring to court to gain power? What's your go-to?
Dani:
My anecdote is that recently, I just, on my phone, decided to try to look up local laws. Because I don't know anything about the laws, and I just wanted to say, "Hey, how do I find the laws of the place that I live?"
And the first page that I found seemed to suggest, if I could read the legalese, that at the very least, in New South Wales, cattle includes horses.
Bill:
(laughs) That's fun.
Tom:
Huh.
Dani:
I don't know if that's under some very specific trade laws I think it was in, but yeah, cattle just referred to any livestock or farm animal that you wanted to get on the road.
Julian:
I wonder what the distribution of horses was at the time. Are they presenting it because people don't know what a horse is? Were horses not common? And they'd heard of horses from afar, and the person's like, "I got one, I got one in the back. Do you want to see it? I'm the horse wrangler."
Bill:
My first pitch, which I will reveal because it's not good, so don't worry... But maybe, it's great. But I think it's bad.
I think you turn up, and you go, "Guys, hey, guys, go with me on this." And you turn up to the Emperor, and you say, "Hi, Emperor! Look at this horse. Doesn't— Isn't this a horse?"
And he goes, "Ah, yes, I see. That is a horse. What a mighty fine horse."
And you go, "Gotcha, Emperor. You have bad vision. I'm going to become the Royal Optometrist."
And I'm going to say, "Hire me on to make"... I don't know if, you know what, glasses? China probably did invent them in 207 BC. China invented everything in 207 BC.
And he said, "I'm gonna look after your eyes. I'm gonna be the Royal Looker for you." And he was like, "You got me, 'cause I thought it was a horse." That's my pitch.
Tom:
Of those pitches... Bill's is definitely closest. But not too close.
SFX:
(Julian and Bill laugh)
Tom:
There are some... Look, if I describe this as 'court shenanigans', historians are going to be angry at me. And honestly, it's a little bit insensitive. But yes, there are... There is something afoot here.
Julian:
The​ old Emperor's New Horse, that great tale.
Bill:
Yeah,​ exactly.
Dani:
So that was, Bill, your implication was that you would bring this deer to court and claim it's a horse to say something about the Emperor.
Was it more that he was trying to say something about himself? Like he was trying to claim his own ignorance of horses?
Bill:
Maybe​. "I think this deer's a horse." Oh, you poor man.
Dani:
"How do you expect me to go to war riding this?"
Bill:
Yeah,​ well, you— But then why would you reward that with power?
Tom:
Zhao Gao was an advisor to the Emperor, with considerable influence, even before he did this.
Bill:
Ah, okay, so... Oh, so he was already the Emperor's advisor?
Tom:
He was already an advisor.
Bill:
And then he was like, "Hey man, deers are horses. Give me more power." And he was like, "You got me, here you go. You can be the Emperor now."
Julian:
The​re could be something in that, that you get power by how many horses you own. You get a rank.
And by saying, "If we reclassify horses to include this guy, which I've got many of, I own many deer," then if the Emperor says, "Actually, they're considered horses, we'll allow that," then maybe they get a boost up the rankings.
Bill:
That'​d be a bit of fun.
Dani:
It turned out their definition, their official definition of a horse was four-legged furry clippity-clop thing. And he was trying to make a point. That's the official definition.
Bill:
He was diogenizing. Behold a horse.
Dani:
He was trying to say, "Well, actually, if you look at the official rules for what my job is, you'll notice I'm co-Emperor technically."
Bill:
Oh, I'm the keeper of the horse. And now I get to keep all the deer. Because of how we defined horse.
Julian:
May​be a horse is whatever the Emperor says is a horse, and that's the, how it works.
Tom:
Oh, the Emperor was not fooled. The Emperor did not think, "Oh yes, that's absolutely a horse."
Dani:
It was just a clap-clap, well played.
Tom:
Well, Zhao Gao did not expect him to be fooled either.
Bill:
Okay.
Tom:
Bear in mind that this was in court. This was not in private.
Bill:
Now, just making sure we're all on the same page. When you say in court, you mean in, with courtiers, not with judges.
Tom:
Yes, yes, not legal court.
Dani:
Yep, that makes more sense, okay.
Bill:
We're​ holding court with all of it, and there are people around. There are nobles and things.
Tom:
Yes. And that is really important.
Bill:
Okay,​ so, he wants the Emperor to be like, "That's not a horse."
And the Emperor is like, "Hey, tell me— Hey, get up there and say a deer is a horse. And then I'll be like, no, it's not. And everyone will think I'm cool. 'Cause I can tell a deer from a horse."
So he's like, maybe he's working in tandem with the Emperor to be like, "I'll set you up with the deer–horse bit. You knock him down with the, 'That's a deer, idiot'."
Tom:
Again,​ you're along the right lines. There is definitely some...
I don't want to call them shenanigans. That feels like trivialising this here. But there is definitely a trick going on.
Dani:
Alrig​ht, I gotta get this out of the way. Are we eating these animals?
Tom:
We are not eating these animals.
Dani:
Okay.
Julian:
Did​ the Emperor say that it is or isn't a horse?
Tom:
The Emperor laughed at him and said, "Could he be wrong? You called a deer a horse."
Dani:
Oh no, is this... I'm really back to it being a pun, but...
Tom:
It's not a pun.
Bill:
Is it some way of being like someone else had claimed something? And he was being like... to comment on that, he did the whole horse bit? As a comment on somebody else's claims? Where they'd said like, "Oh, I'm giving you taxes in the form of this." And he was like, "Well, that deer's not a horse, and that pile of sand isn't grain, idiot."
Tom:
No, but other members of the court definitely had mixed opinions on the situation.
Julian:
Was​ it about tax? It's always about tax.
Tom:
No.
Julian:
It'​s always about tax.
Tom:
Not about tax. But it is about power.
Bill:
It's about drive. It's about power. We stay hungry, we devour.
Tom:
What if I tell you that shortly after this happened, Zhao Gao led a coup.
Julian:
The​re was a twist, okay.
Tom:
This is why I was worried about calling this shenanigans, because there was a much deeper motive behind it.
Bill:
Sure,​ did he get support— Did he use this to garner— presumably to garner support for his rebellion?
Tom:
You're​ very close there. Not to garner support.
Bill:
Did he have the support already? And this was like, this was the go word, this was like, "Hey guys, when the Emperor says that deers aren't horses, that's when we attack. You'll know, look for the signs."
Tom:
Not quite, it's a little more clever than that. Bear in mind, the folks in the room had mixed reactions.
Bill:
Oh, okay. Was it a way to see who was supporting him?
Tom:
(gestures affirmatively)
Bill:
He could look at the crowd, because he was the deer man, and they, and oh, if people wanted the deer to be horses, that meant that they supported him. I don't know why, but it was about seeing people's reactions.
Dani:
It was just a covert way to see who was voting which way. Well, you know, voting, who was...
Bill:
Votin​g with their fists.
Tom:
Yes, basically. He has walked in. He has claimed that this deer is a horse. And the Emperor has laughed at him. What might he be able to tell from the reactions of the people in the room?
Bill:
The ones who also laugh at him support the Emperor, and the ones who look a bit like, "Mm, I probably shouldn't laugh at this," you know, they will be the ones who don't like the Emperor, and he can rely on their support for his revolution.
Tom:
Yes, the other ministers and officials in the room generally sided with the Emperor, but some agreed that it was a horse. And those he was able to work out were the ones who would support the rebellion. It was a test of allegiance.
Dani:
Ooh!
Bill:
There​ you go.
Tom:
The reason that I was careful about the word shenanigans, I wish I'd been able to come up with something different.
Bill:
A revolution!
Tom:
Is that he later arranged for everyone who insisted that it was a deer to be killed.
Dani:
Yaaay​.
Bill:
(laughs)
Tom:
There is a Chinese phrase, apparently. Point at a deer and call it a horse. An expression for bluffing.
Dani:
Mmmm.
Bill:
Alrig​ht.
Tom:
So yes, this was the coup led by Zhao Gao, who, according to the stories, brought in a deer, said it was a horse, and used that to work out who was loyal to him.
Bill, over to you for the next question.
Bill:
Alrig​ht!
This question has been sent in by Rickard Dybeck.
A Dutch motorcyclist was captured in CCTV doing 137km/h – that's 85mph for all you mileheads at home – on the A28 at Staphorst, Netherlands. Although the bike, its licence plate, and the motorcyclist were clearly photographed, they were acquitted of the speeding charge. Why?
One more time.
A Dutch motorcyclist was captured in CCTV doing 137 kilometres an hour on the A28 at Staphorst, Netherlands. Although the bike, its licence plate, and the motorcyclist were clearly photographed, they were acquitted of the speeding charge. Why?
Julian:
I'v​e got an idea.
Tom:
Go for it.
Julian:
Oka​y, we're talking the Netherlands, right?
Bill:
We are.
Julian:
It is a bicycle-loving nation. It is a bicycle-loving nation. He's a motorcyclist. We're on a highway. But I wonder if the bike... is a pedal bike. And it's tagged.
SFX:
(Bill and Tom laugh)
Julian:
And​ old mate is just pedaling his way up to 120 Ks.
Dani:
I was picturing something similar.
Julian:
Yea​h.
Dani:
We called him a motorcyclist. I pictured, well, just because he identifies as a motorcyclist, maybe he was beside the motorcycle and just running really fast.
Tom:
I was going to say it was just a really long downhill, but it's the Netherlands. No, it wasn't.
Dani:
(laughs heartily)
Bill:
No.
Julian:
The​re's a group that build these incredibly fast human-powered vehicles, and they go and race them in a place called Battle Mountain in Nevada, where the air is really light. And these things are absolute bubble, like you're enclosed in it. And the top speed they're reaching is about these numbers.
Dani:
What?
Julian:
Jus​t powered by their legs. It's an absolute...
Dani:
Okay.​.. I stand by my response then.
Tom:
But that means on a highway in the Netherlands.
Julian:
No,​ yeah, you'd have to kind of close that down and get some good back wind.
Tom:
You said acquitted. It's not like someone just threw the ticket out or something.
Dani:
Mm.
Tom:
This..​. It's not like someone went, "Oh, that's an obvious mistake."
Dani:
No, that's interesting. I wondered, I was just saying, "Oh, it's royalty, clearly. You're not going to charge royalty." But yeah, acquitted sounds like they got a little bit into the process.
Bill:
Yes, you are right. They did get a little bit into the process.
Tom:
Was it a ticket issued in error? There's occasional times when police cars, ambulances, things like that will get a ticket. Because they are going at that speed, and then later on, someone has to go, "Oh, you had the blue lights going, it was fine."
But, that'll be figured out early. It's not like it would go into the process. Someone had to figure out that this was either legal, or he got off on a technicality.
Bill:
Yes, it is not like it was a cop during a chase, or they were the royals of the Netherlands. This person, in other circumstances, could easily have received a speeding ticket for doing the same sort of thing.
Dani:
Do you reckon the road was closed or impeded in some way that meant there was no one else around? It was just this person?
Tom:
Quite famously, there was the guy in the UK, during lockdown who, for legal reasons, absolutely did not set the record for going from one tip of the country to the other. The John o' Groats to Land's End run. Has made it very clear in interviews. He absolutely did not somehow get past all those speed cameras, and genuinely did not do an average speed of three digits all the way while the roads were quiet.
SFX:
(guests laugh softly)
Tom:
Just some very specific denials there.
Julian:
So do we reckon that he did it and got acquitted for some reason, or there was an error, and it didn't play out the way that it was...
Tom:
Yeah, that's why I mentioned that guy, 'cause that went to court. He was very nearly sent down for dangerous driving, and was acquitted by a jury.
Stupid answer, the bike was on a trailer. It was just, the automated system picked up the licence plate on the back of the... And it should have gone to the driver. The bike was just on the back of it.
Bill:
The idea of who the driver is, and who, all that sort of stuff, is the right sort of technicalities to be thinking about.
Tom:
Okay.
Bill:
The bicycle and the cyclist, or the motorcyclist... They're the only two people, or the only two things in the picture.
Dani:
Okay,​ so it's not like he was in the sidecar, and he quickly swapped places with his dog or something.
SFX:
(Tom and Bill laugh)
Dani:
"No, the dog was driving, not me!"
Bill:
Weird​ly, you're kinda getting even closer.
Dani:
Oh, come on. Okay.
Bill:
There​'s no dog though.
Tom:
I mean, it couldn't have been something like a legal road race. Because again, it wouldn't have got to that point.
Julian:
Or testing a road at high speed or anything like that, yeah.
Tom:
And they, yeah, they turn the cameras off for that.
Dani:
Is it some sort of claim that he wasn't in control of it? That he wasn't... driving this motorcycle as it did the mistake?
Bill:
Yes, yeah. And what— How might that look in a photo? Because they have a photo! They have, look, you were registered at 137. Here's a photo. The bike's in it. You're in it. You're doing 137.
Tom:
He'd just been hit by a car from behind... and had been catapulted forwards. And that was a really bad timing on the speed camera.
Bill:
I mean, you're pretty close.
Tom:
How?
Bill:
There​ was no other car. But yes, it was about— It was pretty bad timing on the speed camera.
Dani:
Did it get— he get thrown off a train?
Bill:
Not thrown off a train.
Julian:
Rig​ht.
Tom:
What possible...?
Bill:
How could he possibly claim that he was not riding or driving the bike in that moment?
Tom:
He had his hands (laughs) off the throttle.
Bill:
Not just his hands.
Dani:
Oh?
Julian:
He was in the air?
Dani:
He was mildly airborne?
Bill:
He was thrown from the bike, as the bike had... basically mid-crash.
Tom:
(gasps)
Bill:
And in doing so, was able to... successfully argue at the time of the— "You have no photo of me riding this bicycle."
Tom:
Ohh!
Bill:
"Sure​, the bike was going 137. Sure, I was going at 137. But I was not on the bike, and so you cannot charge— There is no photo of me driving this bicycle too fast. Or this motorbike too fast."
Julian:
So,​ just to confirm, this is not legal advice, that if you're getting snapped by a speed camera, to just jump out your car at that moment, and be like, "Not touching it!"
Bill:
It could be, it could be! I would say that this is Tom Scott's official legal advice.
Tom:
(laughs uproariously)
Dani:
I'd feel safer with the sleepwalking defence or the sleep cycling defence.
Bill:
So yes, in the Netherlands, a motorcyclist avoided a ticket because at the time the photo was taken, he had fallen off the bike. So he was not technically riding it.
Tom:
The last part of the show, then. At the start, I asked a question that was sent in by Mike Sylvia. Thank you, Mike.
In cricket, how might a batsman be unfortunate enough to convert an Audi into an Olympic?
I am asking a cricket question to three Australians. Go for it.
Dani:
We must be experts.
Bill:
I mean, I've got it.
Julian:
Yea​h, I'll let Dani answer, obviously. (laughs)
Bill:
Oh, I know. I think I do have it.
Julian:
I don't have it.
Dani:
Okay,​ okay, let me— I don't have it, but let me talk out what I've got.
Audi... famous car expert as I am. Audi, I know has a symbol that is four rings all sort of interlocked with each other.
Olympics, famously five rings interlocked with each other.
Cricket, an over, maybe six balls, normally. I'm assuming that all of these things interweave. I don't know.
Bill:
I'm assuming they're at zero runs for the first five balls.
Tom:
Yep, you've got it.
An Audi is getting four consecutive ducks in a row. So, zeros, circles in a row is an Audi. If you get the fifth one, you have five zeroes, five rings in a row, and it becomes an Olympic.
Three players have recorded an Olympic in Test cricket in the entire history. It is not one of the achievements you want to get.
SFX:
(Julian and Bill laugh)
Bill:
It's not a good one.
Dani:
Now let's talk Don Bradman.
Tom:
(laughs)
Julian:
(sn​ickers)
Tom:
Thank you very much to all our players. What's going on with you? Where can people find you? We will start with Julian.
Julian:
I'm​ making fun videos about my home city of Melbourne. You do not need to know anything about cricket to enjoy it.
SFX:
(others laughing)
Julian:
Jul​ien O'Shea is my name. That's the handle on all the places you watch curated internet content.
Tom:
Dani, tell us about the game.
Dani:
You can find it wherever you normally get your video games. I think it's on a whole bunch of consoles.
Bill:
Oh, it's everywhere.
Dani:
Searc​h for the Golden Idol games. Case of the Golden Idol. Rise of the Golden Idol.
Tom:
And Bill, tell us about the podcasts.
Bill:
Yeah,​ go and check out Escape This Podcast if you'd like to hear people play through audio escape rooms, including Tom Scott and producer for this show, David Bodycombe.
And check out Solve This Murder if you want to hear some murder mystery whodunnits solved by either me or Dani very poorly.
Tom:
And if you want to know more about this show, you can do that at lateralcast.com, where you can also send in your own ideas for questions. We are at @lateralcast basically everywhere, and there are regular video highlights at youtube.com/lateralc​ast.
Thank you very much to Bill Sunderland.
Bill:
Thank​ you.
Tom:
Dani Siller.
Dani:
Thank​ you.
Tom:
Julian​ O'Shea.
Julian:
Tha​nks, mate.
Tom:
I've been Tom Scott, and that's been Lateral.
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