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Episode 120: The monk's discovery
Published 24th January, 2025
Abby Cox, Matt Gray and Iszi Lawrence face questions about availability apps, nitpicking nightclubs and handy hairspray.
HOST: Tom Scott. QUESTION PRODUCER: David Bodycombe. EDITED BY: Julie Hassett at The Podcast Studios, Dublin. MUSIC: Karl-Ola Kjellholm ('Private Detective'/'Agrumes', courtesy of epidemicsound.com). ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS: Ashleigh West, Matthew Sherlip, Danny, Karnan Sembian, Jordan. FORMAT: Pad 26 Limited/Labyrinth Games Ltd. EXECUTIVE PRODUCERS: David Bodycombe and Tom Scott.
Transcript
Transcription by Caption+
Tom:
In the UK, who were the intended users of an app called Tudder?
The answer to that at the end of the show. My name's Tom Scott, and this is Lateral.
Welcome to the show, and you join us at a landmark event, as the producer's Word document for all these scripts is about to reach the 300,000 word mark. And we are all wondering if it's going to crash before we can finish the recording.
Put it this way, if I stop speaking, then you know—
SFX:
(long pause)
(Iszi and Abby crack up)
Matt:
(groans softly)
Tom:
Here to trawl through the backup directories of their mind, first of all, we have, returning to the show, Matt Gray. Welcome!
Matt:
Hello​! Thank you for having me back. I'm glad I didn't disgrace myself the first time.
Tom:
(laughs) Not in a metaphorical sense, or in a literal sense.
Matt:
Exact​ly. (laughs)
Tom:
I'm always wondering what to introduce you as. Because I've known you for so long, and over so many things.
What are you right now, Matt?
Matt:
(laughs heartily) Yeah, start off with something very existential to open the podcast(!)
Tom:
Yeah, why not(?)
Matt:
What is a Matt Gray?
Well, I split my time between making YouTube videos and doing broadcast engineering, fixing radio stations and TV stations.
But the best place for you all to find me is on the internet, on the YouTube, where I'm making stuff with electronic 3D printing, or having a nosy around people having their cool jobs.
Tom:
Now, it was your first episode of Lateral last time. How did you feel about it?
Matt:
It's so much... I've listened to a few of these episodes, and it's much more different when you're, you know, in the line of fire, rather than yelling at your car radio.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Tom:
Well, very best of luck to you on your second show. We are also joined by a player back for their second time: Iszi Lawrence, comedian, broadcaster, writer of children's historical fiction. How did you find the show last time?
Iszi:
I found it amazing. I thought I was much more educated than I realised.
Tom:
(laughs)
Iszi:
I was surprised about how clever I was. I could only go downhill, is what I'm saying. I'm setting the expectations low. If you want to hear me sounding clever, listen to the last episode. I was very good.
Tom:
I'm sure that you won't disgrace yourself as...
Iszi:
Well,​ any more than I did last time. Thanks, Tom.
Tom:
I was going to say, any more than Matt didn't, and then it sort of got away from me.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Iszi:
That shovel is digging. Well done.
Tom:
Yeah. Yeah. And the third member of the panel, also back for their second show, we have fashion and cultural historian, author, and from her own YouTube channel, Abby Cox.
Abby:
Hello​! I'm so happy to be back! And embarrassing myself some more.
Tom:
Do you find that people expect you to be very fashionable? Because you are, you know, fashion historian.
Abby:
I think so. And so, I always try to show out to a certain degree, especially when I'm filming. But as a full time YouTuber... I exist in... leggings and sweatshirts and...
Tom:
(laughs)
Abby:
I look like a menace. Like a gremlin 95% of the time. I'm like "Shower? What's that?" (laughs)
Matt:
The edit zone has to be the comfy zone, doesn't it?
Abby:
Yeah,​ if I'm not looking like a stack of potatoes, what am I actually doing? I'm working, that's...
Matt:
What I really like here is the big detailed intros that those two got. And I got, "What is Matt?" (wheezes)
Tom:
You know why that was, Matt? It's because as I went into the introduction, I realised that I'd accidentally misplaced the script with all the notes on the floor.
SFX:
(Matt and Abby giggle)
Tom:
I was like, who can I go to who won't mind that I missed the intro?
Matt:
(cackles)
Abby:
(snickers)
Matt:
That'​s true.
Tom:
That's​, yeah. (laughs) I'm glad I called that right.
Well, good luck to all of you today as we continue down the 300,000+ words that have been in these scripts. We will hammer Ctrl+S desperately as we Page Down to question one.
Thank you to Danny from Cincinnati and Karnan Sembian for sending this question in.
10% of Anguilla's GDP now comes from a source that was not nearly as significant just a few years ago. What is it?
I'll give you that one more time.
10% of Anguilla's GDP now comes from a source that was not nearly as significant just a few years ago. What was it?
Matt:
So I'm gonna have to say, I've heard of Anguilla. I've also heard of Angola, and I'm pretty sure they must be different places.
Tom:
They are, yes.
Iszi:
Yeah.
Matt:
And..​. I'd say it's giving Africa or South America. But I don't know which one.
SFX:
(Tom and Matt laugh)
Tom:
What the audience at home did not hear is the brief two-minute break in recording there, where I had to ask producer David for a pronunciation guide for Anguilla, and I just, I feel like I should have known that.
SFX:
(Matt and Abby giggle)
Matt:
Does anyone else at least know what continent it's on?
Abby:
It's not South— I don't think it's South America.
Iszi:
I think it's Africa, but I don't...
Abby:
Yeah,​ I think it's Africa too.
Tom:
It's actually a British overseas territory in the Caribbean.
Iszi:
Oh, excel— Of course it is!
Abby:
Okay.
Iszi:
Okay,​ okay, no. I'm an idiot. I should have known that.
Abby:
I'm glad that wasn't on me.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Iszi:
As in I was— I've been reading that as An-gai-la for ages.
Tom:
Mhm.
Iszi:
And therefore not... And then-fore not connecting it to, yeah.
Tom:
Same. I would have guessed An-ghee-ya or something like that and assumed it was a French colony or something like that. It is An-gwil-la.
Matt:
What can I say? The British Empire has such a history of stealing places around the world that I've just lost count. I can't keep track of them.
Iszi:
I mean, we did get Saint Kitts, you know. We got that off the French, I think. Anyway.
SFX:
(Matt and Abby laugh)
Iszi:
I mean, you know, all of those.
So, I mean, the Caribbean's got a really sort of amazing history, mostly based around tobacco, and then later sugar. And then of course, what comes with sugar, which is the Transatlantic slave trade.
Here's a lovely thing to, you know... warm the cockles first thing in the show.
Tom:
Yeah.
Abby:
Yeah.
Iszi:
So, fortunately, that stopped. So it won't be that.
Tom:
It will not be that, you are correct!
Iszi:
I think there's a Caribbean island with 365 beaches, one for every day of the year. Is that... That might be Ang... That's not Anguilla.
Tom:
That's​ Antigua, I've just been told.
Iszi:
Oh, for goodness sake!
Tom:
(laughs) There's a...
Matt:
That'​s also Caribbean, isn't it?
Iszi:
It is also a Caribbean, which you can see why I'm, you know, I get confused. Forgive me for my— at least my island listing in my head, you know. At least I didn't say Anglesey.
SFX:
(others laughing)
Matt:
That'​s got the beaches. You just don't want to be on them.
Iszi:
Yeah,​ not 365 days. Okay, so, is it... I imagine it's one of the smaller islands with a lot of forest, I'm thinking. Rather than one of the larger ones with the loss of room from plantations and that sort of stuff.
Abby:
I just had the most obscure concept... idea pop in my head, but I think it's really kind of dumb.
Matt:
Go, go, go.
Iszi:
Go, go for it.
Abby:
Where​ was the Fyre Festival supposed to be held?
Matt:
Ohh!
Iszi:
Ooh!
Matt:
Ohh!
Iszi:
That'​s the festival that didn't happen because the organisers were just too cool to do admin.
Abby:
Yeah.
Tom:
(laughs uproariously)
Abby:
(sobs) Yeah. I'm like, are people going there to relive the Fyre Festival?
Matt:
2 Fyre 2 Furious.
Iszi:
(laughs)
Abby:
(laughs uproariously)
Iszi:
Has this island had a recent discovery, maybe? So maybe it was a boring island, and therefore it's got increased tourist industry because of a specific thing on this island that people want to see.
Tom:
This is more of a modern development for them.
Matt:
Okay,​ I've had an idea then. This is GDP. GDP is about money.
Tom:
Yes.
Matt:
And a new source of GDP, a new source of money, I'm not saying it's a good one, is cryptocurrency. Are they mining cryptocurrency on that island?
Abby:
Ohh.
Tom:
Ooh.
Iszi:
Nice.
Tom:
No, but... It's not that technological development, but you're definitely very warm.
Abby:
Are they mining something?
Tom:
Uh, no.
Matt:
Credi​t card fraud?
Iszi:
I love the way that you went from crypto...
SFX:
(group laughing)
Iszi:
the way you went from cryptocurrency... You did pick up on the whole technology new thing and went straight to mining. You just went...
Matt:
Yeah.
Iszi:
"This​ is gonna be Snow White, I know it."
Abby:
Actua​lly, my brain went, oh, are they growing weed? That's, if it's not fire, I was like, are they pot manufa— Are they growing pot? Are they competing with Jamaica, but...
Matt:
Yeah,​ they could have a whole hydroponic thing going on. In the mines.
Abby:
In the mines.
Tom:
So when they sing, "Heigh Ho, High Hoe"...
Iszi:
Fragg​les! It must be Fraggles!
Abby:
Yes!
Iszi:
That'​s what's...
SFX:
(group wheezing)
Iszi:
Fragg​le hunting!
Matt:
(laughs)
Tom:
Let's just say you're closer with crypto than Fraggles. That's...
Iszi:
Okay.
Abby:
Okay.​ Sure.
Iszi:
So, I mean, a lot of, you know, these places, they're tax havens, so...
Abby:
Is it NFTs?
Tom:
If you were to list off sort of recent technological advances, say, the last 20, 30 years, and then the last two or three years, you've got all...
Matt:
It'sâ​€” Oh. Did they have... It could be mining then.
Did they have lithium deposits for all the lithium batteries that are going in electric cars and phones and everything? But I thought that was all mostly Central Asia.
Iszi:
It's volcanic area. So you're not going to get lithium, are you?
Tom:
No, you're not going to get lithium there.
Matt:
But is it other stuff, like...
Tom:
It's not a physical thing about the island. It's more of a stroke of luck really.
Iszi:
Have they just recently found another Spanish galleon?
Tom:
(laughs)
Iszi:
That'​s just got sunk there?
Abby:
Ohh.
Tom:
Techno​logy. We're definitely in the right area with technology.
Matt:
High frequency trading.
Iszi:
I mean, I don't know what that means.
SFX:
(Iszi and Abby laugh)
Matt:
So there's... the stock market. There is a thing called high-frequency trading by...
It's not like they have insider info. It's just when a price goes up or down, they can buy or sell stuff really quickly by having a very fast, very direct internet connection. So places are getting closer and closer to each other or building line-of-sight microwave links and stuff, so they can get the quickest internet connection between places.
And I have no idea where Anguilla is, but if it's in the Caribbean, it might be directly between, say, New York and... somewhere else. So you can put your computers there to do the cross-Atlantic training.
Iszi:
Or it's linking all the islands up, so it's the main hub of all the different islands.
Matt:
Oh! Yeah, that could be where the internet comes in.
Abby:
Like fiber!
Tom:
You're​ edging ever closer to it. It is something to do with the internet.
Matt:
(gasps deeply)
Iszi:
Go on, Matt, you seem to have it.
Matt:
Is it their TLD?
Tom:
It is their TLD. What is that, Matt?
Matt:
So it's the top-level domain. It's the last letters, like .com on a web address. So you've, like, .tv is Tuvalu. And they've made a load of money because television uses it.
Tom:
That got licensed for $50 million in 1999, according to my notes.
Matt:
And .fm for radio stations, which I think is Micronesia?
Tom:
Yep.
Matt:
So Anguilla, I would guess, was AG?
Iszi:
AN?
Tom:
AN is the Netherlands Antilles. AG is Antigua and Barbuda. What might—
Matt:
AL? That's an end— word ending, AL? AA?
Iszi:
What'​d be good to have at the end of the thing? "Aa", I don't know—
Tom:
Specif​ically in the last couple of years.
Matt:
.am?
Tom:
You've​ gone through every letter in Anguilla, apart from...
Matt:
AI, dot AI!
Iszi:
Oh, for goodness sake!
SFX:
(Abby and Matt laugh)
Iszi:
For goodness sake! 10% of their GDP?!
Tom:
Yes.
Iszi:
10%?
Tom:
Domain​ name sales brought in $30 million in 2023, compared to the territory's GDP of $300 million. So 10% of that GDP was based on .ai domain names.
Matt:
I suppose I can see why, because a lot of domain names, they price them based on how common the words are. So if you wanted, like clever.ai, because that makes sense, that's going to be really expensive. And you can pay millions for that.
Tom:
Yep.
Iszi:
Fun fact, I got iszi.com, I-S-Zed-I dot com, when I was a teenager, and it cost me about 20 quid. Four letter domain.
Matt:
Oh yeah.
Tom:
Congra​tulations on getting that early.
I bought tomscott.com when I was in university for what was then to me a lot of money from another Tom Scott who'd never done anything with it. And apparently, several Tom Scotts over the years had emailed him, and I was the first person who'd put a price down, rather than going, "Oh, we were thinking about this."
And I was the first person to go, "Will you take this much?"
And he said, "No."
And then I said, "Will you take this much?"
And he said, "Yes," and I've had that ever since.
Iszi:
Nice.
Matt:
(cackles softly)
Iszi:
Don't​ ever let it go!
Matt:
There​'s so many endings to domain names. So this one's around 'cause they gave one to all of the countries. So all of the country codes and stuff. But there are also so many random new ones.
Like there's one that's .club. And when I saw that one, it immediately made me think of a biscuit advert in the UK from the '90s, so I bought IfYouLikeALotOfChoco​lateOnYourBiscuitJoi​nOur.Club.
Iszi:
And if we go there, it's just, you know, inappropriate for work.
Tom:
It's just the advert, isn't it?
Matt:
It's just the advert. It's just the advert.
Iszi:
Okay,​ that's good.
SFX:
(Matt and Tom laugh)
Abby:
Amazi​ng.
Tom:
Each of our guests has brought a question along with them. We will start with Matt.
Matt:
In December 2022, Louis Tomlinson made a public appearance at Pryzm nightclub in Kingston upon Thames in London. Fans were let in according to this order: First, those who were in the queue at 8:30 am; then, those who arrived before 8 am; and lastly, those who camped overnight. Why?
And again.
In December 2022, Louis Tomlinson made a public appearance at Pryzm nightclub in Kingston upon Thames in London. Fans were let in according to this order: First, those who were in the queue at 8:30 am; then, those who arrived before 8 am; and lastly, those who camped overnight. Why?
Iszi:
I mean, it's a nuisance. So they're trying to discourage people?
Abby:
We made rules!
Tom:
Yeah.
Iszi:
I'm going to say what I think it is, and I think this club's got the exit and the entrance back to front.
Tom:
How so?
Iszi:
So that the queue, literally, people were standing, queuing up outside the exit, and actually it was the entrance. The actual queue line went the wrong way.
SFX:
(others crack up cringingly)
Iszi:
And then they assumed that the people who'd only just arrived had been queuing there all night and let them in.
Matt:
I really like that idea that the queue just happened to be the right length that it ended at the entrance. But unfortunately, you're not quite right.
Abby:
What time do the events start?
Matt:
I wouldn't say that actually matters.
Abby:
Okay.
Matt:
But it was a normal evening gig.
Iszi:
In Kingston. Got a one-way system in Kingston. It's a pain if you've ever driven around it.
Tom:
Yeah.
Matt:
I have. I've got stuck in that.
Iszi:
Have you been to the Pryzm nightclub, Matt?
Matt:
I have.
Iszi:
Is it where you hang out? Have you? Look at you.
Matt:
It's not where I hang out, but I have been there once, a very long time ago.
Iszi:
Okay.
Matt:
Well,​ I wouldn't rule out what you were talking about at the start so quickly.
Iszi:
What were we talking about? Was that my idea that the queue was backwards?
Matt:
Iszi was getting closer. And it's something that the fans were surprised and disappointed by.
Iszi:
So is there... Was there some sort of... ordering to the... I mean, because, like, queuing... I'm going to ask this, and I'm going to sound so old, but is this young fellow British or American?
Matt:
(giggles)
Tom:
He is British.
Iszi:
He's British. So he understands the queuing system and the importance of queues.
Tom:
(laughs)
Iszi:
So there is no...
Tom:
Yeah, but it's a nightclub. It's going to be a mess whatever happens.
Iszi:
Yeah,​ I mean, you know, you let in...
Tom:
There'​s going to be three different queues, and then the bouncers are just going to let someone else in because they're mates.
Matt:
I wouldn't focus so much on the type of venue. If you just think of it as any, you know, gig venue that any pop star could be at. They could have done this anywhere.
Tom:
Oh right, because I was thinking it was to do with the layout of Pryzm. Maybe it had different areas that get filled in different orders, but...
Matt:
And the fans were warned about something beforehand.
Tom:
Ooh.
Iszi:
Ooh.
Abby:
Is it that there were different tickets sold, and so... the people who actually had the 8:30 tickets, or showed up at 8:30 were actually VIP, and people didn't know that? So, the people who camped out might have been general admission?
Iszi:
Could​ it have been ticket touters?
So that if you bought a genuine ticket, you would— you had a sort of special time to turn up at, and people who bought tickets secondhand didn't have that information. And therefore, you know, so they overpaid. I don't know how that would work. But is it to do with that, to try and stop people— Because I know that's a big problem, that tickets get sold on, and, you know, people get, you know, lose a lot of money, trying to see their favourite people.
Matt:
It's neither of those, but you have got vaguely close before. If you continue to think about what might be happening outside.
Tom:
This is a fairly mundane answer, but there's a lot of nightclubs that have licensing restrictions.
They can't be open a certain length— Or nearly all nightclubs, if they're anywhere near a residential area, have to have a sign on the exit that says, "Please leave quietly. Please do not wake our neighbours."
Is there something nearby where they didn't want loud fans queuing overnight? Like, there was a reward if you turned up at exactly the right time?
Iszi:
Was it a nursery or a crèche or something?
Matt:
So, Tom, you've got half of it there. It's not a licensing thing.
Tom:
Okay.
Matt:
One thing that you should possibly think of is maybe the month that it was happening in?
Iszi:
Chris​tmas!
Abby:
(snickers)
Iszi:
It was cold. I don't know. (wheezes)
Matt:
(widens eyes silently)
Iszi:
Okay,​ so it was cold. So the people are fr— They didn't want people freezing to death.
Abby:
But then why would they have people who camped overnight?
Iszi:
Becau​se punish them.
Abby:
(blurts laugh)
Tom:
Becaus​e they're wearing warm clothing.
Iszi:
Ah, so they're already dressed in warm clothing. And therefore, the people who are semi-naked get in first.
Matt:
You are so close that I'm going to give it to you. It's to reward the fans who turned up on time to avoid the cold.
Abby:
Okay.
Matt:
So this was such a hotly sold gig. It was very much talked about, when he was coming back to do this very small, for him, gig in London.
The ticket information told the fans that they were not allowed to queue before 8 am on the day of the show, stating: "We cannot allow people to sleep overnight in this freezing weather." Anyone who turned up too early was given a different colour of wristband and had to wait before the regular queue was let in.
Anyone camping overnight was given a third wristband and were admitted after the first two groups.
Banquet Records, the local record shop who organised the appearance, tweeted, "Aware this will upset some, but there has to be repercussions for queuing too early."
Iszi:
Yeah,​ pneumonia! Let them just have pneumonia!
SFX:
(Tom and Abby laugh)
Matt:
And that's the thing. Fans will turn up and queue before events just to try and get to the front and stuff, but...
Tom:
Yeah.
Matt:
That winter was particularly cold then as well.
Tom:
Right.
Matt:
I didn't write this question, but I heard this on the news, on the day and on the day before leading up to it... on pop radio stations and things targeting his audience, saying, "Just don't, don't go early. Don't go too early."
SFX:
(scattered chuckling)
Matt:
Well,​ well done. I think, Iszi, you just about got there, and then Tom knocked it home.
Iszi:
No, I think Tom got that one. I was— I was just thinking it was just pedantry and money. And actually, it was meteorology.
SFX:
(others laughing)
Tom:
Thank you to an anonymous listener for this next question.
In the 7th century, a group of frustrated Irish monks had an epiphany. Moving forward, they made a change that had little to no effect on their daily routines, and yet it undoubtedly changed the world. What was it?
And one more time.
In the 7th century, a group of frustrated Irish monks had an epiphany. Moving forward, they made a change that had little to no effect on their daily routines, and yet it undoubtedly changed the world. What was it?
Abby:
I can tell you all. It's not going to be taking mummies as medicine.
SFX:
(others laughing)
Abby:
They weren't there yet. So it wasn't that. Okay, so scratch that off the list.
Tom:
Oh, that video will have been out by now as well. 'Cause we're recording this a little early. You will have a video out now about eating mummies.
Abby:
Yes.
Matt:
Wait,​ so I've got time to make a video about Irish monks to appear relevant?
Tom:
Yes! Yes, you have.
SFX:
(Abby and Matt laugh)
Iszi:
But you'll look really stupid for not knowing the answer immediately now. That's the issue.
Matt:
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Tom:
Also, Matt Gray is Trying... being a monk. Not entirely—
Matt:
(gapes silently)
Tom:
He's got an idea now. He's got an idea.
Matt:
That would involve me being quiet, and I'm not very good at that, am I?
SFX:
(Tom and Abby laugh)
Matt:
And I'm not a pious individual anyway.
Tom:
Oh no, no, go and see the monks that brew Buckfast.
Matt:
Ooh, yes. That's the tonic wine that's full of alcohol and caffeine. I bet they're having a whale of a time.
Iszi:
But they're not in Ireland, are they?
Tom:
No, they're not. The translation for North Americans would be Four Loko if it was wine and made by monks.
Matt:
And it tastes like cough syrup.
Iszi:
Yeah.
Tom:
I will say that this has nothing to do with alcohol.
Iszi:
600 AD, Irish monks.
Tom:
Mhm.
Abby:
Yes.
Iszi:
So this is pre-Viking, this is post, obviously, Ro— Rome didn't go into Ireland. There was a lot of things happening there. They're frustrated, and they're not changing their daily routines.
I think this has got something to do with timekeeping or something to do with calendar keeping.
Abby:
I agree with you. Or like "daylight savings time", sort of.
Iszi:
Maybe​.
Matt:
And I thought writing systems or language kind of stuff, because that's far back enough for them to change something or change the way they write something. So then we now read it differently now. So it's all knock-on stuff.
Iszi:
So did they introduce some Arabic lettering or something?
Matt:
Or maybe the way they use numbers to represent dates? Maybe we're all right.
Tom:
Of the three of you, Matt, you are by far the closest.
Matt:
Okay.
Iszi:
Ooh. Alright, Matt.
Tom:
(snickers)
Iszi:
You know loads of Irish monks.
Matt:
Did they introduce the W? Or something like— No, that's post-Roman though, 'cause the Romans just had Vs.
Iszi:
Yeah,​ but this is post-Roman.
Matt:
Oh, it is, isn't it?
Iszi:
And they would have been... They would have been, you know, the... The church would have reached this far by then. Therefore they would have tr— So Christianity is effectively what the Roman Empire turned into.
Tom:
Mhm.
Iszi:
The Catholic Church.
Matt:
I'm trying to think what language they'd speak in Ireland in the 7th century. Because were they speaking Irish?
Iszi:
But they'd have written in Latin. They'd have written in Latin.
Tom:
They would have written in Latin, yes.
Abby:
Yeah.
Matt:
Okay,​ yes. If they're writing in Latin, then is that... I'm just wondering if it's going to be related to the Great Vowel Shift at this point when everything was— but that's—
Abby:
No, that's a thousand years later.
Matt:
Is that— okay, fine, okay.
Abby:
What you talked about, what I picked up on was... the Arabic numeral situation. And shifting the numbers.
Iszi:
Famou​sly, Arabic has a zero, which is the introduction of zero, but I'm not sure when that comes in or why. I know mathematically it comes a lot earlier, but I know it sort of becomes popular at some point.
Matt:
One thing I'm thinking of here is in the— I know a tiny bit of Arabic.
And in the Arabic alphabet, the letters are all squiggly, and the numbers... There was debate about whether they look like what we see the Latin numbers are now, or another type, which... are more likely to be off from a Persian route, which are very similar in what the Latin shapes are descended from.
But I don't think they came over to the UK in that shape.
Iszi:
I don't think the Romans invented much, to be fair. So they'd have nicked anything off anybody else, to be fair.
Abby:
Just stealing stuff.
Iszi:
Well,​ exactly. But why bother thinking?
Matt:
But it's Latin, so they'd be writing... religious stuff in Latin.
Tom:
Yes, they would.
Iszi:
And it's their daily routines as well. So is it the prayers? Is it the matins and the— So you need to have regular time in this field. I'm going back to time, and it's nothing to do with time, we've already established this.
Tom:
It's not to do with time. The closest thing you've said is that it was to do with the W.
Matt:
Oh?
Tom:
It's not the W, but it is...
Matt:
So the other— J. I don't think Latin has a J.
Iszi:
How does that change— J doesn't change the world, does it?
Tom:
No.
Iszi:
And I'm sorry if you're called John, but...
Matt:
I'm trying to think of butterfly effect kind of stuff because if it had no effect on them, but it changed everyone else...
Abby:
But is it the writing of it? Because historically, J was written as like the letter I, basically up through the 18th century, so...
Tom:
There is one other big difference that most historians would say came from Irish monks in the 7th century. There is one shift that they brought into Latin that, before then, you wouldn't have had.
Iszi:
Oh, is it the hard— because it's like 'Boudica', and it became a 'sh', and it's the soft, the soft C. Is it that? No?
Tom:
Defini​tely writing.
Matt:
So it's writing, not pronunciation.
Tom:
Mhm.
Matt:
'Caus​e I don't think there was a K. I think everything was just a C.
Iszi:
Ooh, ooh, ooh! Is it just the order of the alphabet? Did they just print the A, B, C, D, E, F, G?
Tom:
No, but it definitely made it easier to read.
Iszi:
Oh, is it writing from right to left?
Tom:
No.
Iszi:
Or left to right?
Tom:
No.
Iszi:
(wheezes, claps)
Matt:
Is it that an index is written in alphabetical order rather than appearing to?
Tom:
Oh, no, no, not quite. You're closer with letters. If this change hadn't happened, then typewriters and keyboards would actually have one fewer key.
Iszi:
Capit​als.
Tom:
You're​ closer. There's one other big change that came along about then.
Matt:
Did you say one fewer key on a keyboard?
Tom:
Yes.
Iszi:
Is it to do with the spacing? Is it introducing a space?
Tom:
Yes!
Abby:
(gasps)
Iszi:
Boom.
Abby:
Oh.
Iszi:
That'​s— This is where cuneiform failed.
SFX:
(others laugh heartily)
Matt:
Oh yes, because when you see inscriptions in Latin on buildings, they don't have spaces in between the words sometimes.
Tom:
Yep.
Matt:
Is that because they didn't used to write with spaces?
Tom:
Yep, before the 7th century, most Latin was written in scriptio continua.
Again, that would have been pronounced differently 1,400 years ago. But there were no spaces between words. So if you're literate, that's fine, you can read the words. But it is a barrier to the common folk who couldn't read.
So, according to paleographers, the decline of scripto continua began when monks began to add spaces in Irish Bibles in the 7th century.
Matt:
Thank​ you, Irish monks.
Abby:
That'​s cool.
Matt:
I'm really glad for that, actually, because I've just started learning Japanese on Duolingo recently, which I realise isn't always the most accurate source for learning a language, but it's an easy way of doing it. And certainly the way they write their... hiragana script... there's no spaces between the words. So it's really hard— Especially when you don't know the language yet, it's really hard to read because you don't know where one word starts and another word begins.
So, imagine doing that while trying to get your head around religious concepts and (giggles) all of that at the same time.
Iszi:
Well,​ I think it'd be fine for a Bible, but still all the histories and stuff would have been an absolute nightmare, because there was no standard spelling.
Tom:
Yes, this was Irish monks in the 7th century who... in the shortest possible way I can phrase it, invented the space.
We will go to Abby for the next question.
Abby:
Okay,​ well, this is a big change of pace. So... (chuckles)
Tom:
Okay.
Abby:
This question has been sent in by Ashleigh West. And the question is:
Ash takes some hairspray and a pair of hair straighteners to a gymnastics competition, but doesn't use either of them on hair. What are they used for instead?
So, again.
Ash takes some hairspray and a pair of hair straighteners to a gymnastics competition, but doesn't use either of them on hair. What are they used for instead?
Iszi:
See, the hairspray I could imagine being used to fix makeup, or sort of, you know. But the straighteners!
Tom:
I'm trying—
Iszi:
Those​ are—
Tom:
I was thinking, is there some way you can heat up the hair straighteners and create a blowtorch with the hairspray?
Abby:
(laughs uproariously)
Tom:
That's​ probably not... not quite what they're going for.
Matt:
No.
Abby:
No.
Matt:
I think if there's an open flame in your hair straighteners, you probably got a problem.
Abby:
It's a problem!
Iszi:
Okay,​ I think it might have something to do with the type of gymnastics that women specifically do. Am I close?
Abby:
Not like a type. It's not like... oh, for a vault specifically.
Iszi:
No, I was thinking it was, I think it was the ribbon. Because you'd want a straight ribbon, and you could keep that straight really nicely with hairspray and use the hair tongs on it to straighten the ribbon, is what I was thinking.
Abby:
So you are correct about the ribbon and the hair straighteners.
Iszi:
Yes!
Abby:
But not the hairspray.
Tom:
Oh, okay.
Iszi:
Okay.
Abby:
Not the hairspray. That's something else.
Matt:
Yeah,​ the only place I'd thought was that the hair straighteners could be used as an iron. So yeah, that's what we've got here. So hairspray is kind of sticky. So are you allowed to prepare your mat? So you spray that all over the— You mist the floor so it stops you—
Iszi:
(flaps hands silently)
Matt:
Or your hands! So the thing— Yes, sorry. That's Iszi's answer because Iszi was clasping her hands there.
Tom:
(laughs)
Matt:
To stop the baton falling out of your hand.
Abby:
No...​ I would think about what women wear in gymnastics competition.
Iszi:
(snickers)
Tom:
Oh, I was going to go through all the other elements of gymnastics there and try and work out a few and, like, setting the pommel horse on fire. I don't know why I'm obsessed with using hairspray for fire today.
Iszi:
It's just, you hear hairspray, and you think pyrotechnics.
Tom:
Yeah! It says a lot about how my head works.
Abby:
Simon​e Biles comes out with a can of Aqua Net and a blowtorch, and is like, "This is for Tom, baby."
Matt:
I would watch that.
Abby:
(imitates flame blast) (laughs)
Matt:
Oh, so yeah, they're using the hairspray on themselves to keep their clothes in place because there's so little clothing there.
Tom:
Oh my god.
Abby:
(giggles)
Matt:
God, that's awful.
Abby:
Yeah.
Iszi:
That makes so much sense.
Abby:
Yeah,​ so because, yeah. It basically, it's like a spray adhesive. So it helps stick it down. Now, Ashleigh does note that they do have official bum glue
SFX:
(Tom and Matt laugh)
Abby:
if they want to be fancy.
Matt:
Offic​ial gymnastic bum glue.
Abby:
Bum glue.
Tom:
(laughs)
Abby:
But I guess for most girly-pops doing the gymnastics, just a good, strong hairspray helps keep it in place.
Iszi:
It's particularly bad because if, when you remove hair, you've got to moisturise, and moisturise obviously would make things more slippy, so it makes sense to then use glue.
Matt:
Simon​e Biles arse adhesive.
Tom:
Oh my god.
Matt:
Sorry​, Simone. You're the only gymnast I can think of.
Tom:
Thank you to Jordan for sending this question in.
In 1965, Richard did a colour-by-numbers using brown, red, and yellow pastels. It's now framed and on display in Pasadena, California. Why was this picture the first of its kind?
In 1965, Richard did a colour-by-numbers using brown, red, and yellow pastels. It's now framed and on display in Pasadena, California. Why was this picture the first of its kind?
Iszi:
I've only done a couple of colour-by-numbers. I wasn't— I didn't have the patience for it and ended up getting my colours confused, so it looked like a psychedelic nonsense, so...
Tom:
I mean, that's art.
Iszi:
I mean, it is so— It's so art. Or it's just impatience and inability to pay attention.
How about, okay, so if— A colour-by-numbers for those— We should make clear what that is. It's basically, you've got a picture, and on the picture it's got numbers in each segment where you paint that specific segment a certain colour.
And this one was just brown, red, and yellow.
Tom:
Yes.
Iszi:
Has it got anything to do with that song... "All the leaves are brown"? But no, that's grey.
SFX:
(Tom and Matt laugh)
Tom:
It is California Dreamin'.
Iszi:
There​ you go.
Matt:
Oh, it is.
Tom:
It's on display in California.
Matt:
Was he a papa from the Mamas and Papas?
Tom:
(laughs softly)
Abby:
Well,​ it's the first of its kind. So there is an indication that it's one of the first... or whatever he did was the first paint-by-numbers, or it has something to do with either the subject matter, or the fact that he used only brown, red, and yellow, and then obviously blends of those?
Iszi:
Brown​, red and yellow. This sounds an awful lot like things that come from the human body.
Tom:
(cracks up)
Abby:
Yeah.​ It also was just very popular colors.
Iszi:
I mean, popular colours, yes. But what I'm thinking is, I'm thinking all of the colours of the things that come out of you. You know, some of them are yellow, some of them are brown, and some of them are red.
Abby:
Medie​val humors of it all! (laughs)
Iszi:
Exact​ly, it's very—
Matt:
I can't think of an artist called Richard, but if the artist was called Hieronymus...
SFX:
(Abby and Iszi laugh)
Matt:
Bosch​'s paintings are a bit more gruesome like that.
Tom:
That was not the subject of the picture. But the colours that were chosen did turn out to be surprisingly accurate.
Abby:
Is it the first Jesus paint-by-numbers?
Iszi:
Was it done by... No, I was going to say, was it done by a blind person? But that doesn't make sense. Because you've got to see the numbers.
Abby:
Was it done by someone who's colorblind?
Tom:
No.
Abby:
Okay.
Matt:
I've got two slightly interlinked ideas.
So... Colour-by-numbers is basically an algorithm. So is this someone using maths or calling it algorithmic art?
And the related thing is, well, at that point, you've got an infographic. Was this the first infographic? And they were trying to use a painting to display data?
Tom:
This is a painting that's displaying data. But infographic isn't the right word for it.
You're right that colour-by-numbers is... Technically it is. This was not just a book of colour-by-numbers stuff.
Iszi:
It's not the first pie chart, because that was Florence Nightingale.
Abby:
Was it the first color-by-numbers made by computers?
Tom:
Comput​ers were involved in creating what was being coloured in.
Matt:
Is it like a... So this is the '60s. There's a lot of city building going. Was this a zoning map? And they were, first time they coloured it to see the distribution of industrial and residential and business zones?
Tom:
Not this time, no.
Matt:
Space​!
Tom:
Space!
Iszi:
(giggles)
Matt:
Sorry​, America, '60s.
Iszi:
It's the right decade for space.
Tom:
Space,​ yes.
Matt:
The reason I came to that is: '60s, so computers, very big, very expensive.
Tom:
Mhm.
Matt:
'65 is very space. So NASA's gonna have computers, and... Did you say the person was British, or was...
Iszi:
Richa​rd.
Tom:
Richar​d.
Matt:
Did I just assume that? He's just called Richard, so...
Tom:
You just assumed it.
Abby:
I don't if you know this, Matt, but there are Americans named Richard.
Matt:
(laughs uproariously)
Abby:
So, just so you know.
Iszi:
Dick Cheney.
Matt:
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Iszi:
That'​s what we think of Richards in America.
Matt:
I've now got "Kids in America", but with the words "Richards in America" going in my head.
SFX:
(Tom and Iszi laugh)
Matt:
Brown​, red, and yellow is kind of what Mars looks like.
Tom:
It is!
Iszi:
Ooh, hello.
Abby:
(gasps)
Iszi:
Is this the first accurate— So basically they've got the data from Mars, and then they made a map of it, and then they painted it, and it's the first actual colour picture we have of Mars?
Tom:
Yes, it is.
Matt:
And it's by numbers because the computer could only output text like a dot matrix printer.
Abby:
That'​s so cool!
Tom:
Spot on!
Matt:
You couldn't print in colour, so that, you had to do it yourself.
Tom:
Yep, you're absolutely right. This is Richard Grumm and his colleagues from Pasadena, California.
Matt:
Home of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory.
Tom:
Yes, so—
Abby:
And the little old lady.
Tom:
Sorry?
Iszi:
Okay.
Abby:
Okay.​ Guys don't know the Beach Boys. Whatever, it's fine.
Tom:
(laughs uproariously)
Iszi:
Okay,​ fair enough.
Matt:
Okay.​ (laughs)
Iszi:
I thought we established we're elder millennials, not elder Generation X.
Abby:
Okay,​ I don't know what yall's parents listen to, but I am well versed in my '60s music. Thank you very much.
SFX:
(Matt and Abby laugh)
Matt:
My mum listened to Queen.
SFX:
(Matt and Abby laugh)
Tom:
This was the Mariner 4 spacecraft sending back images from Mars. It was the first ever close-up image of another planet.
It was taking a long time for the computer to process the data. So while they waited, they converted the data captured by a spare tape recorder into numbers, printed them out on ticker tape, stuck them together, and those numbers represented just the amount of light. So it's actually just a black-and-white image.
Richard Grumm and his colleagues obtained some pastels from an art shop, and the colours chosen were surprisingly accurate for the red planet.
Matt:
Oh, brown, red, and yellow are just different shades of yellow-ish, aren't they? So the...
Tom:
Yeah.
Matt:
Getti​ng darker.
Tom:
Yep.
Iszi:
Orang​ey-red-iness.
Matt:
And, yeah, Pasadena's where... they still downlink and process all of the data for... all of the remote stuff. So that's where their mission control for deep space is, I think.
Tom:
Yep, and the image is still on display at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, California.
Matt:
Cool.
Abby:
Cool.
Tom:
Iszi, over to you for the last guest question of the show.
Iszi:
This question has been sent in by Matthew Sherlip. In the Jackson Heights Historic District of New York City, there's a sign for 35th Avenue. Why does it also feature the numbers 1, 4, 1, 4, 1, 1, 1, and 1?
In the Jackson Heights Historic District of New York City, there is a sign for 35th Avenue. Why does it also feature the numbers 1, 4, 1, 4, 1, 1, 1, and 1?
Tom:
The very first thing I do when I hear a sequence of numbers like that, it's like, is that a code? Is that something like that?
So I did the thing where you convert it to letters, and I got ADADAAA-A.
SFX:
(Abby and Iszi laugh)
Tom:
Which is... unhelpful.
Matt:
Is it anything to do with cinema?
Iszi:
It has got nothing to do with cinema.
Matt:
Okay,​ so I'll tell you what I was thinking then, because... in Die Hard 2... someone has to solve a puzzle briefcase on the side of Central Park.
Iszi:
Nice.
Matt:
And I think... I don't know where Jackson Heights is, but I assume it's up the... at least the very north end of Manhattan, if it's on Manhattan. Or on Queens.
Abby:
But you said Avenue.
Matt:
Yeah,​ it's 35th Avenue.
Abby:
So the avenues go east to west.
Matt:
Yeah.
Abby:
Stree​ts go north to south. So like, Harlem is in the 100-pluses. Upper West Side's in the 70s.
Tom:
Yeah, 35th is going to be fairly south as Manhattan goes. Maybe like the south bit of Central Park?
Iszi:
I wouldn't be as obsessed by the geography of it.
Tom:
Okay.
Iszi:
As you... I mean, something happened.
Matt:
But avenues are the up-down on Manhattan. Not a street, this is avenue.
Abby:
Yeah,​ but then, isn't Jackson Heights way, way, way up at the top, and you're like...
Iszi:
Point​ is, nothing to do with the answer. So don't worry about it.
Abby:
It's just a little side quest we went on together.
Tom:
(laughs)
Iszi:
If I were you, I would count the quantity of numbers in the list.
Matt:
Seven​, then one.
Tom:
Well, you did say 1 1 1. Could be a hundred and eleven.
Iszi:
I said 1, 4, 1, 4, 1, 1, 1, 1.
Tom:
I'm going to ask a really pedantic question.
Iszi:
Yes, please do.
Tom:
Do the pauses in that mean anything? Are those in any groups?
Iszi:
No, they're not in any groups.
Matt:
Oh, okay.
Tom:
Okay.
Iszi:
I just like to be dramatic, Tom. That's all it is.
Tom:
(laughs)
Iszi:
I'm trying to make ones and fours exciting for you.
Matt:
So that final one isn't separate?
Iszi:
It's not separate in particular, no.
Tom:
1, 4, 1, 4, 1, 1, 1, 1, okay.
Iszi:
If anything, if I was to give you a big clue, it would be 1, 4... 1, 4, 1, 1, 1, 1.
Matt:
Okay,​ is it, is it— Jackson Heights is making me think Jackson 5.
Tom:
(laughs)
Matt:
Is it the chord sequence, chord progression, within one of their songs, and it goes from the root to the fourth chord, then back to the root, then the fourth chord, then it stays in the root for the rest of it?
Iszi:
And they— And somebody thought, this is the only way to celebrate that song is by putting it on this particular sign.
Matt:
Absol​utely, because if you see that, and you get it, you deserve to know.
Tom:
Is this something to do with the Three Musketeers?
Abby:
Okay,​ Tom, yeah, I was like, wait!
SFX:
(Abby and Iszi giggle loudly)
Iszi:
1-4-a​ll, and all-4-1?
Matt:
What?
Iszi:
I love the way your brains work. No. (laughs)
Tom:
Did you just get that as well, Abby? When I, when I said like—
Abby:
I was like, all four one? One four all!
Iszi:
"It's​ d'Artagnan!"
Tom:
Yes!
SFX:
(Abby and Iszi laugh)
Abby:
I'm like, I don't understand what this has to do with New York City, but...
Tom:
No, same.
Abby:
At least we know our brains are on some sort of equal wavelength.
Tom:
Yeah.
Abby:
Which​ makes me feel a lot smarter than I actually am, so...
Iszi:
So how— Count the quantity of numbers on the list. So how many numbers did I say?
Abby:
There​ was eight.
Tom:
Eight numbers on the list.
Iszi:
There​ were eight. And that amount is the same as what?
Matt:
Bits in a byte?
Iszi:
When you think about this, remember: We're looking at a sign for 35th Avenue.
Abby:
Ohh! So 35 is 8.
Iszi:
That'​s true, but that's not it.
Abby:
Well,​ that's confusing, okay? There's a lot of 8s happening.
Tom:
You can decompose 8 into 3 and 5 from 35. You can also, yeah, it doesn't... There's eight compass directions?
Iszi:
I mean, technically yes, but actually on the sign, what is that 8 of?
Abby:
Is it, is this, wait. It's an octagon? No.
Iszi:
No. There's no octagons on the sign. The sign says 35th Avenue.
Tom:
Well then...
Iszi:
And it also has the numbers 1, 4, 1, 4, 1, 1, 1, and 1 on it.
Matt:
Is that just the model number of the sign? Or the order code?
Iszi:
Alas,​ alas not. They're specifically placed. And if you work out what else there is eight of on that sign, you might get a hint.
Matt:
Oh, oh, oh! Are they metro lines?
Iszi:
No.
Abby:
Lette​rs. Is it letters?
Iszi:
Hello​, hello, Abby! Hello!
Abby:
Becau​se T-H and then 'AVENUE', that equals eight.
Iszi:
It does!
Abby:
So, is it...
Iszi:
And appropriately... all of those letters are in capitals.
Abby:
So it's Roman numer— no.
Tom:
T-H-A-​V-E-N-U-E.
Matt:
It's not like the fours are vowels or anything because it's— there's no— I've got them written down on top of each other, and I can't see any relation.
Iszi:
I mean, maybe you shouldn't write them on top of each other. Maybe you should write them slightly smaller and next to each other.
Matt:
Oh, Scrabble!
Iszi:
(laughs)
Tom:
(groans deeply)
Matt:
It's the Scrabble numbers, aren't they?
Iszi:
So why do they put the Scrabble numbers on this sign?
Abby:
Is that where Scrabble was invented?
Iszi:
Bingo​. It is exactly where Scrabble was invented. Well done.
In 1938, architect Alfred Mosher Butts invented a board game that he initially called Lexiko, before changing it to Cross-Crosswords and then Scrabble. The game was tested out in a room of the Methodist Church here.
To commemorate this origin story, the 35th Avenue sign has been adorned with the numbers equivalent to the point values of the eight letters, as if they were tiles in the game.
Matt:
Aww.
Iszi:
Lovel​y.
Abby:
That'​s nice!
Iszi:
But well done, guys, because that was like, I was like, there's no way. There is no way.
Tom:
It is one of those things. Right at the start, I was like, I'll convert these letters to numbers. I didn't do the rest of the standard crossword clues and quiz clues for letters and numbers, which is, yeah, you check Scrabble, you check snooker ball colours, you check everything like that. Yeah.
Iszi:
I mean, you have to play Scrabble regularly to get the four is the H and the V, so...
Matt:
I like the... it was first playtested in a community centre, like all board games are.
Tom:
Yes.
Matt:
And like so many board game nights are put together.
Tom:
Which leaves me with the quick question from the start of the show. I asked the audience:
In the UK, who were the intended users of an app called Tudder?
Anyone want to take a quick guess at that?
Iszi:
I'm hoping, because in my head, it's spelt— initially spelt T-U-double-D-E-R.
Tom:
Yeah.
Iszi:
But I'm actually hoping it's spelt T-A-D-A-A, and it's like, ta-da!
Tom:
(laughs)
Iszi:
And it's a load of magicians.
Abby:
See, I was thinking it's a Netflix app, because they do their... But I think it's ta-dum. That's how they do it.
Tom:
Yes, they do the "T'duum-pblblrbr..."​ Yeah.
Abby:
Yeah.
Matt:
Oh, is it people from Yorkshire? You don't want to use this app, you want to use t'othah.
SFX:
(others laugh heartily)
Iszi:
That'​s beautiful.
Tom:
Iszi, you got the spelling right. T-U-D-D-E-R.
Matt:
Farme​rs? Udder, farmers?
Tom:
Yes, why? I'll give you, it's farmers. Uh, why?
Iszi:
Okay,​ it's a farmer's app for farmers. So maybe... Oh, is it because... during certain breeding seasons, you need to make sure that you have enough breeding stock, which involves having fresh samples in order to impregnate your herds?
Tom:
Yes.
Iszi:
She says, trying to keep it as PG as possible. So you go on Tudder, and say, "Ooh, our cows are in heat. Can you please send over your bull?"
Abby:
And they go, "Ta-da, here's your bull."
SFX:
(Tom and Iszi laugh)
Tom:
Yes, this is a Tinder style app for cattle, which allowed farmers to match bulls and cows across the UK. As of 2024, the app is no longer functioning.
Abby:
Oh, that's sad.
Matt:
Awwh.
Abby:
That'​s sad.
Tom:
Thank you to all our players for getting through that gauntlet of questions. What's going on in your lives? Where can people find you? We will start with Abby.
Abby:
You can find me on YouTube. Just Abby Cox, just basically everywhere. You can also find me on Instagram at @IAmAbbyCox. My website is abbycoxcreates[.com]​. And yeah, if you just type in my name into Google, you're going to get me, the first lady of Utah, and a dead hockey player. And I think it's pretty easy to determine who's who at that point.
Tom:
Iszi!
Iszi:
You can find me at I-S-Zed-I dot com, or –Zee-I dot com, if you're American.
And yes, I do a podcast called Terrible Lizards, which is about dinosaurs. I do that with paleontologist Dr. David Hone. It's very good if you like your stomps and your rawrs and your flappy-flaps. So enjoy that.
Also, I write historical children's fiction. And my new book, The Cursed Tomb, is out this year. It is bang-on accurate. I've had two Egyptologists working on it, and it is set in 1249 BC in Egypt. So enjoy that. Yeah, The Cursed Tomb. It's with Bloomsbury. Thank you.
Tom:
And Matt.
Matt:
I am at @MattGrayYES on all the socials. Put my name in there, and you'll find it, or go to mattg.co.uk and the links are all there.
If you're searching for me, I'm the one with the curly hair, not the other Matt Grays.
Tom:
And if you wanna know more about this show, you can do that at lateralcast.com. We are at @lateralcast basically everywhere, and there are regular video highlights at youtube.com/lateralc​ast.
Thank you very much to Matt Gray.
Matt:
Yay!
Tom:
Iszi Lawrence.
Iszi:
A pleasure.
Tom:
Abby Cox.
Abby:
Thank​s for having me!
Tom:
I've been Tom Scott, and that's been Lateral.
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