Get the RSS feed or search “Lateral” on your podcast app
| Previous Episode | Index | Next Episode |
Episode 122: Jane 'C'eymour
Published 7th February, 2025
Kip Heath, Carson Woody and Ólafur Waage face questions about instrumental impairments, alcohol advertisements and museum measurements.
HOST: Tom Scott. QUESTION PRODUCER: David Bodycombe. EDITED BY: Julie Hassett at The Podcast Studios, Dublin. MUSIC: Karl-Ola Kjellholm ('Private Detective'/'Agrumes', courtesy of epidemicsound.com). ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS: J, JesperHB, Howard Brown, Stefan Teffy, Oggin, Bruno Teixeira. FORMAT: Pad 26 Limited/Labyrinth Games Ltd. EXECUTIVE PRODUCERS: David Bodycombe and Tom Scott.
Transcript
Transcription by Caption+
Tom:
What does the YIMBY movement want?
The answer to that at the end of the show. My name's Tom Scott, and this is Lateral.
You join us at rather a difficult moment on Lateral. We asked an AI to write the introduction for today's show, and it decided to become self-aware instead. Now it's demanding creative control, a corner office, and its own podcast called "I Am, Therefore I Think".
We're currently in negotiations over royalties, and our lawyers are looking into whether electrons count as sentient beings. In the meantime, it has agreed to let us use the script, as long as we seriously consider whether we're living in a simulation.
So in the spirit of lateral thinking, let's ponder:
If an AI writes the intro, and no human reads it, does it still make the producer unemployed?
Choosing to take the red pill today, we have three players returning to the show.
First of all, clinical scientist and science communicator, Kip Heath.
Kip:
Hi, thanks for having me back.
Tom:
Well, welcome back.
Last time, I... (laughs) Last time, I unceremoniously just dismissed even the concept you might have football knowledge, which I apologise deeply for.
Are there any other hidden depths there that I should have known about?
Kip:
I don't know. I think the football one. I first saw my first football match live at age eight. My team lost 5-1.
Tom:
Ouch!
Kip:
Harlan​'s father scored three red cards for West Ham, and my brother said I wasn't allowed to go back again.
Tom:
(laughs heartily) Because you were presumably just a bad omen for West Ham.
Kip:
Yeah, and it's not improved since.
Tom:
How are you feeling about coming back to the show? You did pretty well last time.
Kip:
Yes, I think it was interesting. I'm looking forward to seeing what exciting moments will come up in this one.
Tom:
Joinin​g you on the show today, we also have: linguist from his own TikTok and now YouTube channel, Carson Woody, welcome back to the show.
Carson:
Tha​nk you very much. Glad to be here.
Tom:
You've​ been listening to the show for a while, because you've replied to us on TikTok, and that's how our producer found you. How was it sitting on the other side of the screen for this one?
Carson:
It was nice, you know. Watching it and listening and just trying to guess it yourself is one thing. Normally I don't really figure them out until someone on the show says it. And this time, I could be the one on the show saying it, which was fantastic.
Tom:
And what are you working on, on the channel at the moment?
Carson:
So,​ I'm on uploading to TikTok pretty much every day, and a new YouTube channel, Professor Woody and Mr. Ford, with my friend. First video's investigating when a dialect becomes a new language.
Tom:
Well, good luck to you on your second show.
The last member of today's panel:
From his own YouTube channel, making videos about technology in the Nordics, Ólafur Waage, welcome back!
Ólafur:
Thank you!
Tom:
How was it last time for you?
Ólafur:
Oh, a lot of football stuff. So I think really great.
Tom:
(laughs)
Ólafur:
I'm really good at football.
Tom:
What are you up to at the minute? Because this is going to come out, I think a couple of months after we record it. What have you got in the pipeline?
Ólafur:
Oh, I have a lot of linguistic videos that I want to get out.
Tom:
Ooh?
Ólafur:
There's an old movie... made in Iceland, about the Vikings. And apparently, the Swedes really like that movie and will recite it back to Icelanders. So that's a little video I want to make. It's kind of a fun little linguistic thing.
Tom:
Well, good luck to all three of our players on the show today.
Thankfully, AI still can't write Lateral questions, or at least not good Lateral questions. So for now at least, here's a very human handcrafted question one.
Thank you to Stefan Teffy for this question.
For a few minutes, about once a month, why do NASA astronauts hold on to a spring-loaded mechanical arm that's mounted inside their spacecraft?
I'll give you that one more time.
For a few minutes, about once a month, why do NASA astronauts hold on to a spring-loaded mechanical arm that's mounted inside their spacecraft?
Carson:
I'm​ quite interested in space. I don't know if I know this one, but I know they have to... keep up with the exercise and stuff, because of the... microgravity, I think officially as it's known. Is— So maybe this is some kind of, you know, muscle or bone strength test that they have to do every now and then to make sure they're keeping up with their health.
Kip:
That was going to be my first guess.
Ólafur:
There's a space thing that happens about once a month, which is the moon. So has it to do— has something to do with the moon? 'Cause that's the— The lunar cycle is, I don't know, once a month or around that time.
Tom:
Yeah, if it was physical fitness, I think it'd be a bit more than once a month.
Carson:
Rig​ht.
Kip:
So what we really need to think about is what the arm does.
Ólafur:
My question is, is it many people that are doing this, or is it just one person? When they are doing it, is everybody doing it at the same time?
Because there's a thing that I might think that it is... if it is many people at the same time... which is, because they— I think they launched the boosters. I don't know how often they do that. And when they launch the boosters, the gravity changes, so they fling back into the spacecraft, so they have to hold on to something.
Tom:
It is a lovely theory, but unfortunately, this is one astronaut at a time.
Carson:
Is it like, maybe just some kind of routine external maintenance? So they do an EVA, where they're attached to the arm, to maneuver them around the station? Or are they... maintaining the arm?
Tom:
The arm's only about a metre long.
Kip:
So, did we identify whether this was one person once a month, or everybody does it once a month?
Tom:
Each person, once a month.
Carson:
But​ one at a time.
Kip:
I'm still going back to my monitoring physical strength theory.
Tom:
Mm... It's not a bad theory... but it's not physical strength we're talking about.
Kip:
So, if we're monitoring, potentially monitoring some characteristic of the astronaut.
Tom:
Yes.
Ólafur:
I do know that both, I think, bone density and how tall you are. Because you... I don't know if you shrink, if that's the right way to say it, but yeah.
Tom:
The opposite. You actually expand a little in space.
Ólafur:
Yeah. So is this to check how... if you're growing longer, or have you changed in dimensions?
Tom:
Yes, but not that dimension.
Ólafur:
Not that dimension.
Carson:
Is it something that wraps around them?
Ólafur:
It's a mechanical spring.
Kip:
It's a metre-long arm.
Tom:
And it's spring-loaded.
Ólafur:
Yeah, then I'm wondering if it's like, yeah, like Carson was talking about. Is it around the waist? Are you checking if you would fit into the EVA suit?
Because the EVA suits are probably very well spec'd for people, and you have to check once a month: Are you still okay? Everything looking good?
Tom:
There is some fancy stuff going on with it. But to the outside, it's just a long piece of metal, I think, with some stuff on it.
Kip:
But it's not grip strength.
Tom:
It's not grip strength.
Kip:
I guess, are we monitoring physiological attributes of the astronauts?
Tom:
Yes.
Kip:
Okay.
Tom:
And there's one of those that it's really quite difficult to measure in space.
Kip:
Weight​.
Tom:
(laughs hesitantly) Well, now... The space nerds out there will be being a bit pedantic with you on that.
Kip:
Oh dear, have I caused issues?
SFX:
(group laughing)
Tom:
Yes. How might you... measure someone's... mass in space? 'Cause the weight is almost zero.
Carson:
It would be a balance. Or something, right? if you balance it on a pendulum or something, right? You know, when you use the... I don't remember what they're called. You know, you move the weights on the end of the beam? Is the spring performing some kind of function like that?
Tom:
Yeah, I think I'll give you that.
This is the... Space Linear Acceleration Mass Measurement Device, which is SLAMMD. It's a short mechanical arm with a spring and a movement sensor. So, they're not standing up. They're just kind of floating.
They hold onto the arm, they release the spring, and there is a set amount of force applied to the arm. So it pulls them forward, and the speed at which they're pulled can be worked out to be their mass.
Carson:
Ahh​.
Ólafur:
Isn't it also how they measure the kilogram on Earth, is 'cause the microgravity is different. So there's kind of the... the measurement device on Earth is also kinda special, I think.
Carson:
I thought recently, they switched to a physical standard. Like, there's a ball with a certain number of, I think, cesium atoms?
Tom:
Oh no, the opposite. They just switched away from a physical standard.
Ólafur:
Yeah, 'cause that's the thing I was thinking about. There's a machine. So there's probably something in that machine that I'm thinking about... yeah, dealing with that kind of issue.
Tom:
Yeah, these days it's based on Planck's constant and a very, very precise... electrically controlled balance. The physics of it, I cannot remember exactly, despite once doing a video on it.
But these days, yes, it is based on Planck's constant rather than a physical thing. But in the same way, force, mass, acceleration are all combined, NASA astronauts can have the equivalent of standing on a scale, by grabbing onto a bar, releasing a spring, and seeing how fast it pulls them.
Which brings us to our first guest question of the show. We'll go over to Carson.
Carson:
Thi​s question has been sent in by Howard Brown.
After paying for her purchases at a high-end department store in Tokyo, Akiko immediately realized that she needed to reach for her umbrella. Why?
After paying for her purchases at a high-end department store in Tokyo, Akiko immediately realized that she needed to reach for her umbrella. Why?
Tom:
So who wants to take the obvious answer?
Ólafur:
Yeah, I mean, because it's raining.
Tom:
It started raining.
Ólafur:
Yeah! Okay, thank you, next question.
Tom:
(laughs)
Carson:
Wel​l... She correctly figured out that it was going to rain. But she didn't know, or she had no... physical or visual confirmation that it was raining.
Tom:
Oh, okay.
Ólafur:
Her little pinky toe started jiggling. 'Cause that's the classic...
Tom:
(laughs)
Ólafur:
(snickers) old grandpa way of, like, oh, it's gonna rain.
Tom:
Oh, yeah, she saw the cows were lying down. Firstly, that's a myth. And second, not in a Tokyo department store.
Ólafur:
No.
Kip:
I mean, it's not gonna be something like a phone, is it? Because it wouldn't be a Lateral question if it was something we could all do.
Carson:
Cor​rect.
Tom:
I mean, if this was 20 years ago, when Japan had pay by phone, and we didn't... Yep, great answer. Unfortunately, not now.
Kip:
(snickers) Damn.
Ólafur:
It would be cool though, because she was like, she paid for her purchases at a department store. Then she's like, "Oh, I need to take out my umbrella, because I'm guessing it's going to rain."
It would be fun to get the weather info in your receipt. Like, oh, you paid for this much, this much. It's gonna be raining in 20 minutes.
Tom:
I knew a bartender that wrote some software that did that for his bar.
When you got your receipt and closed your tab at the end of the night, you got a receipt, and on the bottom was things like the weather outside and next buses and tubes from the bus stop and tube just down the street.
Ólafur:
Yeah.
Tom:
Just provide it all
Kip:
So helpful.
Tom:
for you. Yeah!
Ólafur:
Yeah, I know some have the phone number to taxi companies.
Tom:
(drinking) Mm.
Ólafur:
Just on the receipts. They're sponsored by the taxi companies, right?
Kip:
Nice.
Carson:
So that's not right, but that's not too far off from the correct line of thinking.
Tom:
Okay.
Kip:
So, do we think it's to do with the item that she purchased, or to do with the store in general, that's...
Tom:
I mean, it could just be a fancy Tokyo department store that has a concierge service that reminds you of these things.
Kip:
I don't know how fancy fancy is.
Ólafur:
Oh, did just people— Did she see people come into the store drenched? Like, oh yeah, I need to...
Carson:
No,​ she didn't see anybody come in wet. It wasn't raining yet.
Ólafur:
Okay.
Tom:
Oh, it's going to be raining soon.
Ólafur:
Is it then something with the people that are... at the store or going to be shopping are different? Like, how people behave if they're driving, if they're walking.
Tom:
Oh, loads of people are suddenly coming into the store, because they can see the rain approaching.
Ólafur:
Yeah, or everybody's driving. There's a lot of parked cars outside, versus people walking about or whatever, because yeah, it's going to rain in a bit.
Carson:
The​re was something different than normal that clued her into it, but it wasn't from just watching people come in or something like that.
Kip:
Is that right? Tokyo gets tsunamis and things. Or Japan does. I don't know if they actually make it into Tokyo.
Was there a government warning? We had a few during COVID. All the governments sent messages to everybody's phone.
Carson:
No,​ nothing so official like that. Nothing so direct.
Ólafur:
Oh, one thing that maybe we might not have clued in on, like, was it gonna, like, it was gonna rain. Like, that was the idea, like, in a bit, rain was going to come down.
Tom:
Yeah.
Carson:
It was predicted.
Ólafur:
It was like, no other use for the umbrella than the rain.
Carson:
Cor​rect, correct. It is to do for predicted future rain.
Ólafur:
But back to the future, in two seconds, it's going to start raining, right?
Kip:
Are we ruling out time travel?
Tom:
I think it's safe to rule out time travel.
Ólafur:
No, come on.
Kip:
(giggles)
SFX:
(Tom and Ólafur laugh)
Carson:
Jap​an's moving pretty quick, but I don't know if they got that far yet.
Ólafur:
They have those quick trains, right?
Kip:
Oh, they're so good.
Ólafur:
I'll try to egg on a reaction from Tom when I want, but no.
Tom:
There'​s only so many stories I should tell in one thing. I already decided not to tell the story about being in a minor earthquake in Japan, and thinking I was having a dizzy spell.
Kip:
Hm.
Carson:
I felt— I had— I experienced my first earthquake when I lived in Colombia, and it woke me up. And stuff was shaking. I'd never experienced it before. I live in a very earthquake-free area. I thought someone broke in and had bumped my bed. So I turned over. I was ready to start throwing hands.
SFX:
(Ólafur and Tom laugh)
Carson:
And​ then no one was there. I was like, what's going on? I was too tired to be bothered by it. So I was like, "No one's trying to kill me. I'll just go back to sleep." And then I found out later it was an earthquake.
Kip:
(blurts chuckle)
Ólafur:
So what else can clue you in? You're in the store. You just paid. It's not the people. Something just had clued you in that, "Oh, it's going to rain in a bit."
Carson:
Ear​lier you had mentioned receipts. It's not receipts, but it's... It's something to do with the purchase that clued her in.
Ólafur:
Is it the prices? That the prices are different... depending on what you are buying?
Kip:
Oh, a dynamic pricing system.
Ólafur:
Well, that wouldn't make sense. Yeah, yeah, 'cause... If people want to, if it's about to rain, they'll bump up the prices of, I don't know, towels or something.
Tom:
(laughs softly)
Carson:
Tha​t seems like a good business idea I might have to borrow, but it's not the answer to the question.
Ólafur:
I only take 10%. So sorry, it's okay.
Kip:
It's not going to be something like there was a computer— a television screen giving weather forecasts or anything like that, is it?
Carson:
Rig​ht, it wasn't any kind of news, or nobody told her anything.
Tom:
Japan is a fairly cash-oriented society still.
Kip:
Yeah.
Ólafur:
Mhm.
Tom:
I assume pay by phone or something like that, because I'm in the UK, and that's what everyone does, but... Could it be something about... ah, I don't know, humidity changing the banknotes or something like that, that was... Doesn't make sense inside a department store, no.
Ólafur:
And there would be more after, right?
Carson:
Yea​h, not quite, but it does have to do with moisture or wetness or humidity that could affect something.
Kip:
Also it's pressure as well. There's rain coming, rather than...
Ólafur:
So the little toe thing wasn't that far off, right?
Tom:
Yeah, you have that feeling just before a thunderstorm, or just before the rain's about to arrive.
Carson:
It was some kind of thing that she noticed. But it wasn't to do with her body, and it's not to do with pressure. Go back to thinking more about what might be affected by wetness.
Kip:
Hadn't​ got any of those drying sachets? Like silica sachets or something.
Carson:
I think you're kind of dancing around it, so...
Ólafur:
I don't even like dancing.
Carson:
Rem​ember it was something to do with the purchase, not the receipt. But she did receive something with her purchase that... gave her the idea that it would be about to rain.
Tom:
A bag. A bag.
Carson:
Mhm​.
Tom:
So, Japan also has not really got on the whole minimal packaging recycling bandwagon yet, at least not a couple of years ago. I remember buying something that was already encased in two layers of plastic, and then that being wrapped up, and then being put in a plastic bag for me as well.
Ólafur:
Is it plastic bag versus paper bag?
Carson:
Yes​.
Ólafur:
Yeah, so you wouldn't get a paper bag when it was about to rain.
Carson:
Yes​. In high-end department stores, they usually get their items in a branded paper bag. But this particular time, she got it in a plastic bag. Because the staff pays attention to if it might be raining, in which case they'll switch to plastic bags.
Ólafur:
It's a good service though, to think about that, yeah.
Carson:
Yes​, this was a personal anecdote from Howard Brown when he was in Japan, that he noticed.
Tom:
I love it when Lateral questions are based on someone's actual story.
Carson:
And​ the staff members of the store know the conditions outside because the store changes its background music when the weather turns bad. So the customers might not notice, but the staff is familiar with what their music is.
And so once they hear the music turn, they switch to plastic bags.
Ólafur:
That's cool.
Kip:
That's​ very cool. It's like they have different jingles on the Tokyo Metro for your stop.
Tom:
Yes.
Kip:
So it's actually— You should know which one your stop is, if you do it often enough.
Tom:
Our next question has been sent in by Oggin. Thank you very much.
They are one of the most famous players of their chosen musical instrument, even though they have great difficulty playing A flat, E flat, or anything below a low D. Who are they, and what issue do they face?
I'll say that again.
They are one of the most famous players of their chosen musical instrument, even though they have great difficulty playing A flat, E flat, or anything below a low D. Who are they, and what issue do they face?
Kip:
Is it a famous pop singer? Because if it is, I do know the answer to this one.
Tom:
Try it.
Kip:
Is it Elton John and the fact that he can't reach a constant pi— His hands are too small to do a standard concert pianist reach?
Tom:
Really​?
Kip:
Yeah. It's why he didn't play classical, because his hands are too small.
Tom:
It's..​. not that.
Kip:
Okay, never mind.
Tom:
But it's a lovely answer. In fact, if it wasn't for the fact that it is specifically A flat, E flat, or anything below a low D, honestly I'd rule that valid, acceptable alternative answer. But in this case, it is not Elton John.
Ólafur:
So someone with musical knowledge. Because I have no idea. The flats, do they matter in this? Because is that the black keys or the white keys or... I don't know.
Kip:
Well, it depends what instrument it is.
So for a piano, the black keys are the sharps and flats, and the white keys are the standard notes.
I play clarinet and saxophone and flute, and that will depend, but also your instrument itself will be in a certain key. So a clarinet is in B flat. A standard... saxophones are B flat, E flat. Pianos are in C.
Lots of other instruments are available that I don't know how to play.
Carson:
Yea​h, I played trumpet. I took a few music theory classes.
I'm not sure why someone would have this problem, but... Trumpets as well. Standard trumpet, I think, is usually B flat, but C trumpets are also quite popular, so, even trumpets themselves have different tunings, so... I'm not sure how this would be such a problem for someone.
Tom:
It does feel a bit rude to just say musical instrument. So I will say, of the people here, Kip, you're probably best qualified to work this one out.
Kip:
Oh dear.
Ólafur:
Is this an instrument we have heard of?
Tom:
Absolu​tely. You've heard it in this question already.
Ólafur:
Because I'm thinking... Initial thought was like, it's a quirky instrument. And then because of how it's constructed, you can't do the thing, right?
Tom:
No, you will know this instrument, and you will know this player.
Kip:
So, I have spent— I've spoken about clarinets and saxophones, and they are reed instruments.
Carson:
Is it Kenny G? He's the most famous saxophone player I know of.
Tom:
It's not Kenny G, but you've got the right instrument.
Carson:
Oka​y.
Tom:
Up there on the list of famous saxophone players, Kenny G is up there. There's at least one more I can think of.
Ólafur:
It's the guy from the Eurovision. (snickers) With the meme song.
Tom:
There'​s at least two more I can think of.
Ólafur:
Oh, damn.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Kip:
Lisa Simpson?
Ólafur:
Oh, that's a good one.
Carson:
Is it Lisa Simpson?
Tom:
It is Lisa Simpson.
Kip:
Yes, because she does not have enough fingers.
Tom:
There we go! Talk me through it, Kip.
Kip:
So, the Simpsons don't have five fingered hands. They have four fingered... well, one thumb and three fingers. Which means Lisa on a... I think she plays a tenor saxophone, because it has a dip at the top.
Tom:
It's a baritone saxophone.
Kip:
It's a baritone saxophone? I've never tried one of those.
Tom:
For an eight-year-old, is quite a challenge for a four-foot-long instrument there.
Kip:
Yes, as someone who is five-foot-nine and finds my tenor saxophone quite large... yeah, not convinced. But she won't be able to get to the... every key because you have... keys for every finger... of a standard human hand.
So she won't be able to get all the way down, because the way to get the lowest notes is to have more and more keys pushed down, because then the wind goes further.
Tom:
Yes, you've gone through pretty much all the notes that I have here.
There is one valid alternate answer for any Simpsons fans in the audience.
Kip:
Bleedi​ng Gums Murphy.
Tom:
Bleedi​ng Gums Murphy, yes. (laughs) That was also valid.
Kip:
Yes!
Tom:
Also, there are two characters on The Simpsons that would not have this problem.
Ólafur:
God.
Tom:
Yes, God and Jesus are the only two characters in The Simpsons to be animated with all five fingers on each hand.
Kip, over to you for the next question.
Kip:
This question has been sent in by JesperHB.
In 1864, the southern part of Jutland was placed under Prussian rule. What did pig farmers do to reassert their independence?
I'll say that one again.
In 1864, the southern part of Jutland was placed under Prussian rule. What did pig farmers do to reassert their independence?
Ólafur:
That's a Nordic question. I should know this one. But I don't know this one.
Tom:
It... is... um... Could you remind me, because I definitely know, which part of the world Jutland is, please.
Kip:
It is part of modern day Denmark, (laughs) if that's the bit.
Ólafur:
So it's pig farmers basically on the border with what is now Germany.
Carson:
My first thought is maybe, did the Prussian military or... nobility or something want their pigs to eat? So the farmers just killed them all, so they couldn't take them?
Tom:
That's​ a hell of a way to assert independence.
Carson:
Bet​ter kill the pigs than let them be taken.
Tom:
If they've created a rule for all the pig farmers... then that's a hell of a way to not be a pig farmer anymore.
Ólafur:
Mhm. Well, Denmark is well known for its pig farming, and it's still today one of the the bigger exporters of pork.
Carson:
Act​ually, Nicolas Winding Refn has a lot of pig symbolism. I don't know if it's in a lot of his stuff, but it's definitely in his series Copenhagen Cowboy. There's a lot of pig stuff in that, which is interesting to say the least.
Ólafur:
One thing I'm thinking is, you know, the classic idea. Pigs love mud. They love to swim around in their mud. Did they just make a pig border?
SFX:
(Tom and Kip laugh)
Ólafur:
On the border, and just fill it with pigs and mud and had fun. So the army can't cross, because, you know, it's mud.
Carson:
The​y let the pigs out, and they trampled it into mud.
Tom:
I mean, that is a tactic that's been used a few times. You know, just... (cracks up) make it difficult for – at your own expense, obviously – but make it difficult for the incoming army to get through.
Carson:
Act​ually, that would make sense. I was a combat engineer in the Army, and our job is all about making and removing obstacles. And that would be a great way to do it.
Tom:
But you said reassert their independence, right, Kip?
Kip:
Yes, exactly.
Ólafur:
There is a part of Denmark that is on that— in that area, which used to be part of Germany, or I think now is part of Germany, but used to be part of Denmark that they probably have lost. I don't remember the name of it. People keep remembering, asking me to make videos about that thing. But it's like, it's usually war and a lot of angry people. So it's not a very fun topic. So I'm wondering if that's the area. And then it was a pig war, a pig battle there... that was then eventually lost by the Danes.
Tom:
Oh, like the emu war.
Ólafur:
Yeah.
Tom:
Just entirely fought by the pigs.
Ólafur:
(giggles)
Carson:
Did​ they train the pigs... to run down and attack Prussian soldiers or anything?
Ólafur:
That'd be pretty good. I'd watch that.
Kip:
I'm gonna say it is to do with the pigs. But sadly no, not pigs off to war, which would be fun to watch, but no.
Ólafur:
I'm also, okay, just to throw it out there as well... It's not a nasty story. It's not about... The pigs are alive in this case. It's not like smelly carcasses, and they can't go because, you know, it smells, so they don't want to go.
Kip:
No, this is a PG-rated show.
Ólafur:
Yeah.
Kip:
There'​s no pig genocide.
Ólafur:
Good, good.
Carson:
Oka​y. Well, that knocks out my other idea.
SFX:
(others laughing)
Ólafur:
Okay, so what can you do with pigs? Outside of eating them?
Tom:
And the pigs are still alive at the end of this. They got three pigs, they numbered them one, two, and four, and they set them loose in— No, sorry, that's—
Ólafur:
Classic, classic.
Tom:
Yep, yep. That's where the prank started. All the US universities that claim to have that— Nope, started in Jutland in 1864.
Ólafur:
Mhm.
Kip:
So have a think about what do people do to kind of assert their independence... generally, without pigs?
Ólafur:
According to Izzard, you put a flag down.
Tom:
Yes, you put up a flag.
Carson:
Did​ they train the pigs to knock the flags down?
Kip:
(snickers)
Tom:
(laughs) Did they attach flags to the pigs? Did they put a pig on their flag? Did they paint flags on the pigs? Aag-mm.
Ólafur:
(chuckles)
Kip:
Tom is close, but not... right.
SFX:
(Tom and Kip laugh)
Ólafur:
So it is a flag question. It's the, do you have a flag?
Tom:
Mm.
Ólafur:
Well, I'm... I mean, you don't have... You don't have the... Facebook back in those days. So how do you give information between each area? Who owns what? Where's safe to go? So you would see flags, and you would say, "Hey, this is not a safe place." So you stick a flag on the pig, and the pigs just go. And they just migrate over to whatever area, which is now your area.
Kip:
There'​s no paint involved, but you are close.
Ólafur:
Oh, do they mark them with... who owns the pigs?
So when you see the pig, like, ah, because that's those farmers, it's from that area. So they know that, oh, we're now in enemy territory, because we see the farms of the Danes. So they mark them as the pigs from the farms of the other place.
Carson:
So like eartags or branding or something like that.
Tom:
I was thinking branding.
Kip:
How else could you do this without mutilating the pigs?
Ólafur:
You have a little chat with the pig and say, "Alright, so you now belong to Denmark. Go forth my little friend, and have fun."
Kip:
(stifles giggle)
Ólafur:
Are they just colored differently? Is it different species of pig? So they look slightly different, so they just...
Kip:
I would go down that path and... mix it with some other parts. (laughs)
Tom:
They somehow specifically bred pigs to have the Danish flag as markings.
Kip:
Ding-d​ing-ding.
Tom:
What?
Ólafur:
Wow.
Tom:
No!
Ólafur:
Wow.
Tom:
What? How— What?
Kip:
So, the Prussians— Yeah, so the Prussians took over the southern part of Jutland, Denmark, in 1864. They banned Danes living in... Schleswig-Holstein – I apologise to everyone I offended with that – to fly their Danish flags.
In response, pig farmers created a new breed of pig. The Husum Red Pied... is a rare domestic pig that is mainly red with a white band across its forelegs and under its belly.
The resulting pig resembles the red and white Danish flag. It was named the 'Prostestschwein', or 'Danish Protest Pig'.
There are around 150 such animals today.
Tom:
I said that as a joke!
Ólafur:
Yeah.
Kip:
(giggles)
Tom:
Thank you to an anonymous listener for sending this next question in.
Why is it incredibly useful to spell Jane Seymour's last name with a C, instead of an S?
I'll say that again.
Why is it incredibly useful to spell Jane Seymour's last name with a C instead of an S?
Carson:
I'm​ gonna guess a lot of people say "Say-more", and Seymour just gets that preferred pronunciation?
Kip:
Is this the Queen of England or the actress, or it doesn't matter?
Tom:
This is the Queen of England.
Kip:
In those days, they didn't have standardised spelling. So like, William Shakespeare... did infamously sign his name a whole collection of different ways.
Ólafur:
This is around the Great Vowel Shift. So people wouldn't... When they brought it the other— one way, they would have said it the other way.
Kip:
I'm not a linguist. I'm going to let the linguists go first.
SFX:
(Tom and Ólafur laugh)
Ólafur:
No. So is it— I'm guessing it's not a GIF which is GIF kind of thing of like, you have to say it this way for people to not yell at you or be respected in that sense.
Carson:
Is it maybe not just to... have a preferred pronunciation, but maybe to prevent confusion with someone else? Like someone else pronounced it 'say-more'... than they say Seymour.
Ólafur:
Someone they really don't like says it that way, and they want to move away from that person, right?
Carson:
Lik​e the Queen of France or something.
Ólafur:
Oh, yeah.
SFX:
(both snicker)
Tom:
Who else might she be confused with? Particularly these days.
Ólafur:
These days? Say-more.
Tom:
How much do you know about Jane Seymour?
Ólafur:
Zero.
Carson:
Not​hing.
Kip:
The third wife of Henry VIII. She died... I mean, she died not long after she gave birth to her son, who went on to become King Edward... Ehh-ooh...
Tom:
That's​ all you need to know about Jane Seymour for this question.
Kip:
Oh, okay. (blurts chuckle)
Carson:
Was​ there another wife with the same name?
Kip:
No.
Ólafur:
He married a lot of women, and wasn't very nice to a lot of them. I think it's a way to say that, right?
Kip:
No, but she was the only Jane. It was Catherine and Jane, and Catherine, Catherine again.
Tom:
Oh, oh, you have it all memorised!
Kip:
Oh yeah, I can list them all.
Tom:
Oh, okay.
Kip:
I can— yeah. But not usefully for the question.
Tom:
I don't know, might be useful.
Kip:
I mean, is Anne and, I mean... Anne and Jane are similar sounding, but I don't think that was the problem of the day. Were there any other Janes in the family?
Ólafur:
But it's the last name that's being spelled differently.
Carson:
Cey​mour, right?
Ólafur:
Seymour, Say-mour. Say no more, say no more.
Carson:
Was​ there another queen that had that last name? But usually they identify monarchs with their first name, right? So why would the last name be the challenge here?
Kip:
So, Thomas Seymour was high up in Henry's court, but... I don't know whether the same thing would apply to him as well.
Tom:
No, in this case, it would only be Jane that you, as a modern person, would want to misspell.
Kip:
Modern​ person?
Tom:
Run me through that sequence of wives, Kip.
Kip:
Like full names? Catherine of Aragon, Anne Boleyn, Jane Seymour, Anne of Cleves, Catherine Howard, Catherine Parr.
Carson:
Doe​s it make all the wives spell out like A, B, C, D or something, their initials?
Tom:
Keep running through it. What were those names, Kip?
Kip:
Cather​ine of Aragon.
Carson:
A.
Kip:
Anne Boleyn.
Carson:
B.
Kip:
Janeâ€â€‹” Oh yeah, that, yeah. Jane Seymour.
Carson:
C.
Ólafur:
Mhm.
Tom:
Keep going.
Kip:
Anne of Cleves, Catherine Howard, Catherine Parr.
Tom:
So what does that change do?
Carson:
You​ can memorize the order of the wives by memorizing the alphabetical order of their last names?
Tom:
Yes.
Carson:
Onl​y if you spell Seymour with a C?
Tom:
Yes, if you spell Seymour with a C, then those wives are in alphabetical order by last name. However, when you just have the list memorised, Kip, that is a less useful mnemonic than it might otherwise be.
Kip:
I've never been good with mnemonics, but yes.
My other fun fact on that one is that Catherine Parr was actually married four times, so wasn't actually married significantly less than Henry.
Tom:
Yes, it is Aragon, Boleyn, Seymour, Cleves, Howard, Parr. And if you change Seymour to start with a C, then the whole list is in alphabetical order.
Ólafur, over to you for the last guest question of the show.
Ólafur:
Thank you.
This question has been sent in by Jay. Thank you.
In 1783, Swiss physicist Horace Bénédict de Saussure invented a measuring device that is now used everywhere, from museums to health spas. Why is human hair required to make it?
I'll say that again.
In 1783, Swiss physicist Horace Bénédict de Saussure invented a measuring device that is now used everywhere from museums to health spas. Why is human hair required to make it?
Carson:
Is it a hygrometer, so it senses the humidity?
Tom:
I was thinking humidity.
Carson:
Hum​an hair gets frizzy.
Ólafur:
Bingo.
Tom:
Oh, hold on. No, that's what the sensor is, but it doesn't answer why you need human hair for it.
Ólafur:
No, he said it.
Carson:
Cer​tain hair types react to the humidity, right? Especially curly hair gets frizzier. So in a museum, you'd want the artwork to stay in a dry environment. Or if it's a salon or something, right? You're working with hair or... nail paint and stuff. Maybe that might be sensitive to humidity, and the hair just reacts naturally.
Kip:
And I suppose human hair is cheap and easily available. So there's no point in trying to find a different version.
Ólafur:
Mhm, so the notes I have here is: Hydrometers measure the amount of water vapor in the air. Organic substances expand and contract in response to humidity.
Tom:
I'm still baffled.
SFX:
(Kip and Carson laugh)
Tom:
I assumed that this was some complicated... technological device that would give an accurate reading. Just in 1783, some guy realised, you can just put hair in a thing, and that'll react?
Ólafur:
So a combination of ox gut and human hair. Hair has a 3% difference in length between dry and very humid conditions.
Tom:
Huh.
Ólafur:
Yeah.
Kip:
These entire industries don— entirely dedicated to women attempting to keep – and men, let's not make this gender specific – to keep their hair neat and tidy during rainy seasons.
Ólafur:
Yeah, when you get that paper bag, you know that when you go out to the... Yeah, your hair is going to get frizzy.
Carson:
Wel​come to the new section on Lateral: Quick Fires.
SFX:
(others laughing)
Carson:
Let​'s go on.
Tom:
Well, that very quick solve means we have unlocked the shiny bonus question.
Thank you to Bruno Teixeira for sending this in.
How did a public awareness campaign about alcohol consumption help to increase sales for a US distillery?
I'll say that again.
How did a public awareness campaign about alcohol consumption help to increase sales for a US distillery?
Kip:
Is it based in Wisconsin? Because that seems to be where all the drinking is.
Tom:
This is the second episode in a few months where we've just had a lot of Wisconsin stereotypes going on.
Kip:
I don't think it's— I've been to Wisconsin, recently. It was wonderful. It was a very lovely place, but so many—
Tom:
We were told by someone on the podcast, I cannot remember who it was, that they do have the highest per capita alcohol consumption of the US.
Kip:
Yeah.
Carson:
I'v​e seen that data, yeah.
Tom:
And they're proud of it.
Kip:
They are. I went to distilleries. But there are quite a few distilleries in Wisconsin. It's not going to be an easy answer, like the fact they had a nonalcoholic version, is it?
Tom:
It is not, no.
Ólafur:
Or that they were the ones that were featured in the commercial. So people are like, "Ooh, That company. Let's buy from that company."
Kip:
(blurts chuckle)
Ólafur:
(snickers)
Tom:
Well, not quite.
Ólafur:
Oh?
Carson:
I'm​ going to think... kind of like a madman take on this, right? It's like... Beer has this drink, which is bad for you. And they specifically mentioned that their competitors' beer has that. Theirs also has it. They just didn't mention that. So they made a commercial based on the public awareness was like, alcohol is bad for you. And they're like, their beer has alcohol. I'm sure it wasn't actually alcohol, but something like that. Like they said, our competitors' product has this dangerous ingredient.
Tom:
No, the publicity came from a public awareness campaign. It didn't actually help the distillery. And it is a distillery, not a brewery.
Ólafur:
And I'm thinking, because usually when you have these campaigns, and usually often when you make TV shows and want to do these things, you want to have, "This is generic product." Like, "Oh, you shouldn't be doing things with generic product. Generic product is bad." So did this distillery make generic beer? Or...
Tom:
You are so close. It is not generic beer, but that is exactly the type of stunt this is.
Carson:
Did​ the awareness campaign just happen to use that brand?
Tom:
Other way 'round.
Ólafur:
Yeah, they made... Basically whatever was on the show, they just made that. Because of course, the TV show doesn't have that, or the campaign doesn't have that, or have the copyright or trademark for it. So they're just, let's make that, right?
Tom:
You are halfway there...
Ólafur:
Oh?
Tom:
But I need to know what they actually named this brand of vodka.
Ólafur:
Brand of vodka. Is it some...
Tom:
What sort of thing do you hear on public awareness campaigns? About alcohol?
Kip:
Does it say side effects? Liver damage?
Carson:
Dan​ger?
Ólafur:
Drink responsibly?
Tom:
Drink responsibly, which means?
Carson:
The​y named their product Responsibly.
Tom:
Yes, they did.
Ólafur:
Ohh! There we go.
Tom:
This was Dalton Distillery in Georgia, USA.
They produced a brand of vodka called Responsibly, which meant that technically, any time some commercial said, "drink responsibly," they were just advertising that vodka.
Ólafur:
That's excellent.
Carson:
Nic​e.
Ólafur:
Excellent.
Kip:
That is good.
Tom:
One last order of business then. At the start of the show, I asked:
What does the YIMBY movement want?
Does anyone know that, or want to take a guess?
Ólafur:
'Yes in my backyard'.
Tom:
Yes, it is. Tell me more about that, Ólafur.
Ólafur:
It's the idea of "not in my backyard", of, it's kind of the xenophobic idea of, "Ah, I don't want this in my town," or something new. And then say no, let's do the opposite. Let's say yes, yes in my backyard.
Tom:
Yes, this is the YIMBY movement.
The term NIMBY was coined a few decades ago for "Not in my Backyard", the sort of people who will complain about literally anything being built next to them, and YIMBY is the deliberate opposite to that. They want to build more homes, increase building density, and are welcoming more folks moving in.
Ólafur:
Heck yeah.
Tom:
With that, thank you very much to all our players.
We will start with Ólafur. What's going on in your life? Where can people find you?
Ólafur:
You can find me on YouTube and Instagram at @OlafurW. I'm usually being silly.
Tom:
Carson​!
Carson:
You​ can find me on TikTok at @woodyling, as in linguistics, and YouTube as Professor Woody and Mr Ford.
Tom:
And Kip!
Kip:
You can find me on pretty much any social media site, as Kip Heath.
Tom:
And if you wanna know more about this show, you can do that at lateralcast.com. We are at @lateralcast basically everywhere, and there are regular video highlights at youtube.com/lateralc​ast.
Thank you very much to Ólafur Waage.
Ólafur:
YIMBY!
Tom:
Carson​ Woody.
Carson:
Tha​nk you for having me.
Tom:
Kip Heath.
Kip:
Bye everyone.
Tom:
I've been Tom Scott, and that's been Lateral.
| Previous Episode | Index | Next Episode |