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Episode 124: Oversized sushi
Published 21st February, 2025
Annie Rauwerda, Bernadette Banner and Matt Gray face questions about mineral mines, gainful gallows and helpless houses.
HOST: Tom Scott. QUESTION PRODUCER: David Bodycombe. EDITED BY: Julie Hassett at The Podcast Studios, Dublin. MUSIC: Karl-Ola Kjellholm ('Private Detective'/'Agrumes', courtesy of epidemicsound.com). ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS: David, Arthur Evans, Anne, Chris, Julius Komorowski, Nate, Travis C.. FORMAT: Pad 26 Limited/Labyrinth Games Ltd. EXECUTIVE PRODUCERS: David Bodycombe and Tom Scott.
Transcript
Transcription by Caption+
Tom:
Why did Amberlei give her niece some banknotes in a block of ice to fulfill a Christmas wish?
The answer to that at the end of the show. My name's Tom Scott, and this is Lateral.
Welcome to the podcast that is full of weird questions and wonderful answers. Many of the puzzles on our show make use of unusual words, such as taradiddle, lollygag, and um... um...
Camponologist, that's it. That one rings a bell.
Matt:
(groans wearily)
Tom:
(laughs coughingly)
Hoping to be the bell of the ball today, first of all, we start off with dress historian from her own YouTube channel, Bernadette Banner. How are you doing?
Bernadette:
I'm tired.
Tom:
(laughs) Okay. Is this where we admit
Bernadette:
(blurts laugh)
Tom:
that we were both out at the same dinner last night, and it ended at about 11?
Bernadette:
Yeah. How are you awake right now?
Tom:
Um... (wheezes) Mostly just adrenaline from running this show.
You know one of those things where you wake up in the morning, and then you remember a thing you've got to do, and you get an adrenaline spike, you know, like, "Well, I'm not doing anything else today. I'm not getting back to sleep." It's basically that.
Bernadette:
See, I had that but about at 9 o'clock in the morning, and it's now 2 o'clock, so I'm ready for a nap now.
Tom:
(chuckles)
Bernadette:
Although, we'll see if that's a benefit or a disadvantage to... thinking laterally.
Tom:
I have to ask about the paintings behind you. I know we're an audio-first show, but what is going on on that beautiful green wall behind you?
Bernadette:
This is my beloved wall of guinea pig historical portraiture. It's my national gallery, if you will. My brother, it started off as a joke to start painting these portraits of my guinea pigs in historical dress every year for my birthday.
It's been about seven years now, and he just keeps doing them, and I don't think it's a joke anymore. So I put them all up in a gallery.
And I'm going to get nameplates for them with accreditation numbers, like fully gallery style. So I hope he knows what he's doing.
Tom:
Well, very best of luck on the show today.
You are joined next:
From the depths of Wikipedia, both in a metaphorical sense and from the many social media accounts with that name, Annie Rauwerda, welcome back to the show.
Annie:
Thanks, I'm excited to be out of the depths today.
SFX:
(both laugh)
Tom:
What have you found on Wikipedia lately? I always ask this question, but it is literally your job. What have you plumbed the depths of Wikipedia with?
Annie:
Every time someone asks this question, I have an answer, except for now.
Tom:
(laughs)
Annie:
I haven't even been on the website yet today. Come back to me. I'll tell you something later.
Tom:
There is a cat tail intermittently interfering with the call here. What's the cat's name?
Annie:
Pearl.
Tom:
Very best of luck to you and Pearl on the show today.
Our final guest, from Matt Gray is Trying, it's Matt Gray!
Matt:
Hello! Thank you for having me back. On the subject of lollygagging, I've realised it's a... It's one of those conditions that cures itself, because if you're gagging on it, it'll end up melting, won't it?
Tom:
(wheezes, cackles) You have done that as a TikTok at some point, I think?
Matt:
Yes, I have. (laughs)
Tom:
I think you've literally just gagged yourself on a lolly for a cheap joke. I remember that.
Matt:
(giggles)
Annie:
(snickers)
Matt:
I can't beat a play on words.
Tom:
What are you up to at the minute? What are you working on?
Matt:
I am working on the next episode of Matt Gray is Trying, where I have a go at weird and wonderful things that people get up to, like jobs and stuff. If all goes to plan, by the time this episode is out, you might be watching me do search and rescue.
Tom:
Oh, wow!
Matt:
So obviously, people that do that kind of thing need to be, you know, really fit and hardy and good at outdoorsy stuff, so... We'll see how I fare. Because I wouldn't describe myself as any of them.
Bernadette:
But you're trying.
Matt:
I'm very trying.
Tom:
Good luck to all three of you on the show today.
As we make our way up the bell tower, I hope you're all going to chime in, even if the question is a bit ropey. Let's ring the changes with question one.
Thank you to Chris for this question.
When translated, they literally mean 'broker gallows'. What is their function in German neighbourhoods?
I'll say that again.
When translated, they literally mean 'broker gallows'. What's their function in German neighbourhoods?
Bernadette:
This seems kind of dark.
Tom:
(chuckles)
Bernadette:
Sorry, my mind just went straight to broker, insurance, gallows.
Matt:
Ahhh!
Annie:
See, I was thinking real estate brokers, and then I was thinking stockbrokers. And I'm imagining a bunch of people being like, "Eat the rich! Let's take them to the gallows!"
Matt:
Yeah, that's sort of what I was thinking too. I was thinking stockbro—
Are gallows the things that you put your head and hands in, and get tomatoes thrown at you, or is that a different...
Bernadette:
The gallows are the thing that you're hanged with.
Matt:
Oh!
Bernadette:
Not the— Oh, the stocks!
Matt:
Stocks, yes, sorry, yeah.
Tom:
Although stock brokers would also be— There's a joke there somewhere, and I can't quite form it in time.
Matt:
Yeah. Okay, so broker gallows. So that's like the hangman's noose is gallows.
Tom:
It's the wooden thing that the hangman's noose comes from, is the gallows.
Matt:
Okay.
Annie:
So it's not a bunch of people that are mad about rent prices.
Tom:
Not in this case. I'm sure that could be a different world, somewhere where that's happening, but these aren't. These are not used to kill anything.
Annie:
That's great.
SFX:
(Annie and Matt giggle)
Tom:
That would be a very dark question for Lateral. We've had a couple of dark questions in the past, but I don't think we'd open with one of them.
Matt:
New series, new mood. It's now
Tom:
Lateral
Matt:
Noir.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Bernadette:
The word broker, is that meant in the context that we know it? Someone who sells real estate, or stocks, or insurance, or...
Tom:
Yes.
Matt:
Well, there's multiple meanings for broker, isn't there? Because there's, it's a... Well, they're all similar, but it's the intermediary that you use to get to something, instead of getting something yourself.
So, rather than buying your own stock, you'd use a stockbroker. I've used an insurance broker and a mortgage broker.
So, broker's an expert that does the thing for you?
Annie:
Maybe they're an expert in selling gallows.
SFX:
(Tom and Matt chuckle)
Matt:
Oh, is broker gallows where... People line up for the gallows. Is that like a price comparison website?
SFX:
(Tom and Matt laugh)
Matt:
Called the Broker Gallows, where you're trying to find the right mortgage broker?
Tom:
You are along the right sort of lines with mortgage broker, real estate broker.
Matt:
And it's used in German neighbourhoods?
Tom:
Yes.
Bernadette:
It doesn't— Is there some sort of... prevention method to stop solicitors getting into the neighborhoods? To stop them from selling things to people that might not be wanted?
Tom:
Solicitor in the sense of someone who knocks on your door, like door to door sales.
Bernadette:
Yes, yes, yes. Like soliciting. Not like a solicitor in the English sense.
Tom:
No, not, not really. The name is derived from the form of the thing.
Matt:
I've had an idea.
Tom:
He's had an idea.
Matt:
Is it the sign they put up outside a house saying it's to let, or for sale, or sold?
Tom:
Yes.
Matt:
Because that's a wooden structure, isn't it, with something hanging?
Tom:
Yes, it is!
Matt:
Yah!
Tom:
Spot on, Matt!
Annie:
Wow!
Bernadette:
(applauds)
Tom:
These are the archetypal 'for sale' signs. So, I mean, what do they look like? Talk me through what you're seeing in your head here.
Matt:
Well, I was thinking of the gallows gallows, which is like a tall wooden stick with a sticky-outy wooden bit with something hanging off it. But in this case, instead of a noose hanging off it, it's a placard.
Tom:
Yep.
Matt:
With the name and brand of the...
Tom:
Absolutely right. The German word is 'Maklergalgen', broker gallows. But it comes from the wooden stake and the horizontal crossbar that the 'for sale' sign hangs off. Matt, you nailed it!
Matt:
Yay!
Annie:
Oh, man, if I had taken more German Duolingo, I would have known that. But I haven't.
Tom:
Each of our guests has brought a question with them.
Matt, you solved that one very quickly. We'll go over to you for this question.
Matt:
Okie-dokie.
This question has been sent in by Anne.
At Oita Airport, Japan, some passengers will see oversized replicas of sushi and other food dishes every few minutes. Why?
At Oita Airport, Japan, some passengers will see oversized replicas of sushi and other food dishes every few minutes. Why?
Bernadette:
Where are they seeing the foods? Are they just like sculptures in the world?
Tom:
And why every few minutes?
Annie:
I have a thought in my head. Immediately I pictured the baggage claim, and I thought, what a better welcome to Japan than oversize replicas of sushi. What if they just throw those in for fun?
Tom:
What, just on the baggage carousel? Like bag comes down, bag comes down, bag comes down, oversized piece of sushi, bag comes down?
Annie:
Mhm, as decoration.
Tom:
Yeah, yeah.
Matt:
Yeah, you've got it straight away.
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Tom:
Wait, really?
Matt:
Yeah.
Tom:
Oh.
Matt:
Now, try and think, why would that actually be useful, rather than just decoration though?
Annie:
Oh.
Tom:
Oh.
Annie:
See, that I don't know.
Bernadette:
Is it like one of the things at the grocery store?
Tom:
Like a divider?
Bernadette:
Yeah.
Matt:
Not quite.
Tom:
'Cause it's not going to be advertising, surely. It's like, if you're at arrivals at the baggage claim, there's a lot of adverts up. But I doubt they'd go to the trouble of doing that just for "get some sushi from the airport"?
Annie:
Somehow this is my second Lateral episode where the idea of advertising at the baggage claim has come up.
Tom:
Yes! Yes, it has.
Matt:
Why might passengers be seeing the sushi every few minutes?
Bernadette:
Oh, it's to delineate when they're about to see the same bags come around?
Matt:
Bang on, yeah, yeah.
Bernadette:
Yeah.
Annie:
Wow.
Bernadette:
That's actually smart.
Matt:
Yeah, it marks when the baggage reclaim belt has done a loop.
Bernadette:
Huh.
Matt:
Well, on one level, it's helping promote the local sushi delicacies.
But, if you're stood there waiting to see if your bag's come, it really helps to know when it's done a complete circuit. And if you see the same food dish twice without recognising your luggage... you know, you gotta wait a bit and wait for more bags to be added.
Bernadette:
That is so smart. Why aren't more airports doing this?
Annie:
We should be putting huge replicas of sushi everywhere.
SFX:
(Matt and Tom laugh)
Matt:
Make the world more kawaii.
Tom:
Well, with our producer increasingly worried about how quickly these questions are falling, (laughs) we will move on to the next one.
Thank you to Julius Komorowski for sending this.
In 2023, a group of workers found a letter hidden in one of the columns of the National Gallery, in London. The letter was written in 1990 by John Sainsbury, stating that he was "absolutely delighted" that the letter had been found. Why?
I'll say that again.
In 2023, a group of workers found a letter hidden in one of the columns of the National Gallery, London. The letter was written in 1990 by John Sainsbury, stating that he was "absolutely delighted" that the letter had been found. Why?
Matt:
I have heard this story.
Tom:
I knew you'd have heard this story, Matt, the minute it comes up. Bernadette, Annie, this one's for you.
Bernadette:
Does it have anything to do with Sainsbury? Is there a relation with the names?
Matt:
It's the same guy, I think, isn't it, as the Sainsbury supermarket?
Bernadette:
Oh?
Tom:
It is the same guy as Sainsbury Supermarkets. The same family at least.
Matt:
Yeah.
Bernadette:
Does that have any relevance to the story?
Tom:
In a vague and tangential sense, yes.
Bernadette:
Okay.
Annie:
Why would you, ugh. You know, I've written letters, messages in a bottle before. And my messages in a bottle always— they always end with, "I hope," you know, "I wonder who's reading this, blah blah blah, I hope you find this." Was he just excited that somebody found...
I mean, ugh, there must be a reason if this is on Lateral.
Tom:
(laughs) I mean—
Matt:
Just a sec, if you've written messages in a bottle, have you thrown them in a river or in the ocean or something?
Annie:
Yeah, it was in, I mean, when I was maybe 10, we did it with my class, we put it in Lake Michigan, and...
Tom:
Did any of them get found?
Annie:
No.
Tom:
Oh. (laughs)
Matt:
Then it's just advanced littering, then.
Annie:
Yeah, oh, it's definitely...
SFX:
(others laughing)
Annie:
In retrospect, I don't think that was really great, but we did it.
Tom:
I don't know why, I just connected that in my head to Advanced Dungeons & Dragons?
Matt:
(wheezes)
Tom:
"Advanced Dungeons & Littering" is just throwing stuff into a dungeon.
Annie:
Dungeons & Dragons is fun, but what if you could incorporate a little bit more pollution?
Matt:
(giggles)
Tom:
Yeah, yeah.
Matt:
And a message in a bottle is definitely an item you can collect at some point.
Bernadette:
Is it littering though, or is littering just advanced archeology?
Matt:
Ooh!
Tom:
Oh no, surely it's reverse archaeology.
Matt:
Oh yeah.
Bernadette:
Oh yeah, because you're creating the midden heaps for archeologists in 300 years, 400, 500, 1,000 years to dig up and find and learn so much about our culture. That we littered all the time.
Annie:
Future archeologists, you're welcome.
Matt:
(wheezes)
Annie:
You're welcome for your job.
Tom:
You try making that argument after you get a littering ticket.
Bernadette:
I will, actually.
Tom:
(laughs heartily)
Bernadette:
Does it have anything to do with the conservation of the pole?
Tom:
Oh...
Bernadette:
Is it an old... Is it an artifact, or is it part of the structure?
Tom:
It is... uh... hm... not an artefact. Hidden in one of the columns of the National Gallery.
Annie:
Okay, so what if he hated a piece of art? Hated it so much, and so he put the letter behind the art. And so he was like, "Yay, finally you're taking this down."
Tom:
Now, you are most of the way there with that, Annie. But it wasn't about the art.
Annie:
Okay.
Bernadette:
Is it like an exit sign or something that doesn't belong with the art?
Tom:
Why might they have discovered it in one of the columns?
Bernadette:
In?
Tom:
In one of the columns.
Annie:
Because he hates the column.
Tom:
Yes. The thing you connected right at the start, Bernadette, about the name? Why might this be John Sainsbury? Why might he have an opinion on this?
Bernadette:
Is it a column from Tesco?
Tom:
(laughs)
SFX:
(Bernadette and Matt wheeze)
Matt:
(cackles softly)
Tom:
Have you been to the National Gallery lately, Bernadette?
Bernadette:
Yeah.
Tom:
Yeah. Have you heard of the Sainsbury Wing?
Bernadette:
Yes... Was it not the Sainsbury Wing before?
Tom:
Oh, it was. Why might it be called that?
Bernadette:
Because, oh, because he was a donor.
Tom:
He was essentially the donor. He put an enormous amount of money, and the Sainsbury family put an enormous amount of money into the Sainsbury Wing of the National Gallery.
Bernadette:
And they wouldn't listen to him when they were putting the columns in?
Tom:
Exactly right.
Bernadette:
He disagreed?
Tom:
Yep, you have absolutely got it.
Sainsbury hated the false pillars that they put up. They weren't structural. They were just there to break up the space. And he somehow hid the letter inside one of the columns, to be found when they were eventually demolished.
And in 2023, the area was refurbished, they found the letter, and it says, "Let it be known that one of the donors of this building is absolutely delighted that your generation has decided to dispense with the unnecessary columns."
Bernadette:
See, this was a Tesco agenda, though.
SFX:
(Matt and Tom laugh)
Bernadette:
They were responsible for the implementation of that column in the first place.
Matt:
I just love that that kind of petty and... passive aggressive note. It's like putting... a post-it note on the fridge saying, "Will you please bin the empty milk bottle rather than put it back in the fridge?" (snickers) But for an architect.
Tom:
It's like putting a stop littering letter inside a message in a bottle and then throwing it into the ocean.
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Matt:
Oh, that's art though, isn't it?
Tom:
Oh, that is art, you're right, that's art.
Annie:
(giggles)
Tom:
So yes, this is a message in a— not in a bottle, but in a pillar, in the Sainsbury Wing of the National Gallery, saying the donor was "delighted" that they'd finally demolished the damn pillar.
Bernadette, we will go to you for the next question, please.
Bernadette:
Okay, so...
This question has been sent in by Arthur Evans.
Dress shoes for women often have heels to provide extra height and to flatter the figure. For what original reason do men's dress shoes have the same feature?
Once again.
Dress shoes for women often have heels to provide extra height to flatter the figure. For what original reason do men's dress shoes have the same feature?
Tom:
Original reason? 'Cause now if you're wearing lifts or something like that, you are an actor trying to look taller. Or you are—
Matt:
(cracks up) I like how you said "an actor". I bet you've got one in your mind.
Tom:
Well, yes, there's...
Matt:
'Cause that was the first thing I thought of as well.
Tom:
Yeah, there are several actors well known... for wearing lifts, or things like that.
Annie:
Keep them guessing. You never know how tall I really am.
SFX:
(Matt and Tom laugh)
Matt:
You can be a more versatile actor with a different size one in each foot.
Annie:
Yeah!
SFX:
(both laugh)
Annie:
One that clomps. One that clomps a little bit more.
SFX:
(scattered giggling)
Tom:
I mean, there is, I think, some correlation between height and business success. Tall people are more likely to be CEOs.
Tall men in particular are more likely to be CEOs. More likely to have higher salaries, more likely to have... Because we literally talk about looking up to people. And there is...
Matt:
Yeah.
Tom:
Unless this turns out to be some study that got, you know... discredited during the replication crisis a few years ago. I seem to remember there being quite a few things about height equating to success, so it could just be something like that.
Annie:
Peter the Great was 6'6.
Matt:
Well, I'm 6'4. Am I reasonably great? I'm okay. Matt the Okay.
SFX:
(scattered laughter)
Annie:
Matt the Pretty Great!
SFX:
(group laughing)
Matt:
The idea I was thinking down for this is... when these shoes would have come in and what was happening practically around that time, be it horses, cars... and stuff like that, because... fashion sometimes exists because of the practical reasons of what they're now integrating with. And people used to wear hats and stuff with their suits to stay warm.
Annie:
I'm thinking manure. I'm thinking keep my heel out of this horse manure which is everywhere.
Tom:
We've had questions like that before, about horse-drawn carts and cars and things like that, but...
Matt:
But when they came in, that'll be in a similar time though, won't it?
Tom:
But why would a heel help with that? You're still wearing a shoe either way.
Matt:
Yeah, but less of the shoe's going to be in the... You know, if you've got really tall trainers, you can walk through a puddle without thinking about it.
Tom:
That's true.
Matt:
If you've got... wearing Converse, you have to basically jump over it. Otherwise you're gonna be wet for the rest of the day. Like that, but with poo.
Bernadette:
I will say that there was a specific overshoe that was worn for walking in mud and on wet streets, and it was not the heel.
Tom:
Oh, okay.
Bernadette:
That was called a patten. It was a very— It's essentially what is now a platform. Sorry, I'm going off-script here, but essentially it's a platform.
Matt:
No please, keep going, keep going.
Annie:
Please do.
Bernadette:
I'm very excited about this question.
Tom:
And it shows. This is great.
Matt:
And did you see all of our eyes open when you started explaining more as well?
Bernadette:
Yeah.
SFX:
(Matt and Tom laugh)
Matt:
Tell us about the platforms.
Bernadette:
Yeah, it's called a patten. It's basically like a raised platform. And sometimes they could get really high, really, several feet high.
But it was essentially something that you would strap on over your existing shoes, so that you could walk through those muddy streets.
The pattens, you know, because especially when you get into later periods like the 18th, 17th century, and shoes start being made out of nice silk. So you don't want to get that muddy. And if you've ever walked on mud in a heel, that heel just sinks right in. So it's not very practical for walking.
Tom:
Oh yeah, you need to distribute the pressure, don't you?
Bernadette:
Yeah. They would even have, going again off-topic, but, not on-topic, but they would have little, they would slip on... if you had a heel with a space under it... you could— it was just a flat platform. If you didn't want the tall thing, if you didn't want the full height. It was just a platform that strapped onto the front of your shoe, just to, again, distribute the weight...
Matt:
Huh.
Tom:
Huh.
Bernadette:
Onto a flat surface, and to protect that space, and to prevent your heel from sinking into the mud.
Tom:
Snowshoes, but for mud.
Bernadette:
Yes, but why are the heels there, is the question. We're protecting the heel now.
Annie:
Tap dancing.
Tom:
I do like the idea of Fred Astaire just tap dancing in platforms.
Annie:
Or like the sound. Like, I'm here, you can hear me. Clip clop, clip clop, I'm coming.
Matt:
I'm now thinking about the construction of heels of that kind of shoe. And I got in a rabbit hole of Cobblers TikTok... watching several people repair shoes, and—
Tom:
Of course Cobblers TikTok. Of course CobbleTok is a thing.
Matt:
CobbleTok.
SFX:
(Matt and Annie giggle)
Matt:
Shoes of that style, I believe, are... can be made out of leather. And a lot of the whole thing is made out of leather. And then you've got the more solid bit on the bottom, which is there to make it sturdy. And there's one piece that goes along the length of the bottom, and then the heel is a separate piece that is attached next to it. And then there's a little gap in between the two. Like, you'd see where your arch of your foot goes.
I'm trying to think of practical reasons for that.
One I can think of immediately is possibly grip, because it's got that right angle. And it wouldn't need to be much of a lift to it for that. But they could also patten it, I suppose, underneath.
But that would be a bit harder and more work... in the olden days, maybe?
Bernadette:
You are definitely on the right path with practical.
Tom:
Okay.
Bernadette:
There was a practical reason for this.
Tom:
And this was for men's shoes, you said?
Bernadette:
Yes. High heels were originally worn by men. They were only later adopted by women. But why?
Matt:
The other thing I'm thinking is that gap, that lip, would let your foot sit on a saddle and not slide off. Not saddle, yeah, the stirrup. It would let your foot sit on a stirrup and not slide forwards off.
Bernadette:
That is the answer, yes.
Matt:
Yeah!
SFX:
(group cheering)
Matt:
(belly laughs)
Annie:
Yay.
Tom:
So it's not like they were necessarily tottering about in these, at whatever the local equivalent of court or ceremony was. It was definitely for horse riding? And maybe for... elsewhere as well?
Bernadette:
Yeah, it was military primarily, especially in Persia.
But when Europe starts trading with Persia up into about the 16th century, it really starts to catch on amongst just everyone in society in the 16th century. And so you get men, you get women. It's court dress, it's fashion, it's... Their heels are just everywhere by the late 16th century.
Matt:
Oh, and dress shoes, because military dress. Because they dress up smart when they're military.
Tom:
So they look formal— The same way that that German bomber jacket was fashionable 20 or 30 years ago from the Cold War. It just gets accepted into mainstream fashion.
Bernadette:
Oh, this is a huge trend all throughout history, is when the military adopts a big new style, the mainstream fashion adopts it a couple of years later. All throughout history, this happens.
Matt:
Wow.
Bernadette:
I mean, you get this with the doublet in the 16th century, with what you see Queen Elizabeth wearing. She's wearing these very doublet-like gowns. It comes from the form of plate, the chest armor.
Matt:
I now want to dress the army just to troll the fashion industry.
Tom:
(laughs heartily)
Bernadette:
You should. I think that would be a really great... See, if you really want to be a trendsetter, start designing for the army.
Matt:
(giggles)
Bernadette:
Yeah. Men's dress shoes originally had heels, so that the foot couldn't slip... through the stirrups when riding a horse. If the foot was caught in the stirrup, the rider could be dragged along the ground by the horse in the case of an unfortunate fall.
We have the first documented evidence of heels on men's shoes, which can be found on 10th century Persian artwork, which depict men on or with horses. So we're kind of thinking cavalry men.
I should say that we don't... you know, we don't 100% have primary evidence that says this for sure, but this is the first time we have documented evidence of anyone wearing heels. So that's how we kind of think of... where these heels come from.
Matt:
I've never considered that your foot could slide forwards through a stirrup? And that sounds horrific!
Tom:
Oh...! Yeah, I hadn't even thought about sliding forwards. I was just thinking, oh, they slide off, they get caught in the way. But no, if they go all the way through and then fall off the horse, that is... Particularly when medicine is basically, "Oh, do you have an injury? I guess we have to remove it." That's... Yeah, okay.
Matt:
I've done the equivalent on the bike, and the worst you get is the pedal whacking you in the shin or the calf. And that hurts enough. I don't want to be trampled at the same time.
Bernadette:
Maybe you should try wearing heels.
Matt:
I should! If you can find me some heels in a UK size 14, then I will absolutely try them.
Tom:
(laughs)
Bernadette:
Yeah, you know, you can try cowboy boots. That's why the cowboy boots still have those big chunky heels, is because the cowboys are riding horses and put their heels in stirrups.
Tom:
I mean, you could get spurs, Matt, and make that noise every time you take a step.
Matt:
I have an idea for a new episode of Matt Gray is Trying.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Annie:
You also could just do clip-in bike shoes, but that's less fun.
SFX:
(Tom and Annie laugh)
Tom:
That doesn't involve learning to lasso and ride the range.
Annie:
Right, there's no YouTube video there.
SFX:
(Annie and Matt giggle)
Matt:
It's all about the content. Our lives are about the content.
Bernadette:
So yeah, the answer is so that people in the 10th century, from what we can see, were able to better keep their feet in the stirrups when riding horses.
Tom:
Thank you to Nate for sending this next question in.
In 1964, a British spy was dispatched to Poland for the first time. Even though they had no prior intelligence about the man, counterintelligence officers from Poland's Ministry of the Interior were on his case immediately, and he left less than a year later. Why?
I'll say that again.
In 1964, a British spy was dispatched to Poland for the first time. Even though they had no prior intelligence about the man, counterintelligence officers from Poland's Ministry of the Interior were on his case immediately, and he left less than a year later. Why?
Annie:
They were on his case immediately? So he was just a really obvious spy.
Matt:
Yeah, they find him on park benches looking through holes in a newspaper.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Annie:
Yeah. Yeah, he's always like, yeah, hiding... on one side of a wall, holding his fedora.
Matt:
Constantly picking up other people's briefcases.
Bernadette:
Is this like one of those stories of the American who starts counting like this, and people know he's...
Tom:
Oh, so they're putting the index finger up first, instead of the thumb up first.
Bernadette:
Yeah. He does something so obviously British.
Tom:
When someone is a spy, they are not necessarily going over massively undercover. They are just usually sent over as a diplomat or something like this, and then get some additional job once they get there.
Matt:
That's what I was about to say. From what I understand, a lot of them around that period were sent over with a normal government style job where they would be expected to be there... and doing a normal role that you'd expect a Brit to be doing.
Tom:
Yes.
Matt:
Which makes me think that things... He may or may not need to speak Polish for that, because they could just have picked a crap candidate to send to Poland.
Tom:
I mean, I can tell you, he was hired as the secretary archivist to the British Embassy's military attaché in Poland. That wasn't what he was meant to do there, but that's what he was hired as.
Matt:
So an archivist gets to see stuff and documents. So I can see why, as a spy, someone being an archivist would be... good, because, "Hi, I'm an archivist. Can I see all of your documents?" (giggles)
Bernadette:
Did they ask him a really obvious question about history, or something that someone who studies documents all day should know? But he didn't, and they said, "What are you doing here?"
Tom:
I was thinking you meant just a question like, "Are you a spy?"
Matt:
(wheezes)
Annie:
(laughs)
Bernadette:
Oh, that too.
Matt:
Like the US immigration form.
SFX:
(guests chuckle snidely)
Matt:
As a Brit, if I go to the US, I get literally asked if I am a spy, and literally asked if I was a member of the Nazi regime during the World Wars. (giggles)
Tom:
Yeah. There's some questions that are like, "Have you ever conspired to commit (list of crimes)?" It's just, yes/no. But you have to tick the box.
Bernadette:
I've definitely seen the question, "Are you a terrorist?"
Tom:
Mhm, yes.
Annie:
It's like, oh, you got me! But can I tell a lie?
Tom:
Although I assume that's so they can also tack on the crime of lying to a federal agent or something like that if they can't get anything else for you.
Matt:
Oh, maybe that's the easiest one for them to get you under.
Tom:
Yeah.
Annie:
That's how, I mean, they got Al Capone for not paying his taxes.
Tom:
Yeah.
Matt:
I do like Bernadette's point, though, there. Was it something to do with the archivist being asked an archivist question, and not being an archivist, so didn't know the answer?
Tom:
No, not really. You could argue that the Polish officers sort of got lucky.
Matt:
I'm imagining it like some kind of farce film, where there just happens to be two Polish officers walking into a random room, and the spy's standing there, trousers half mast and... trying to hide a bug, a listening device, in between his legs. So it wouldn't be found. And they go, "What are you doing there, sir?" Like, "I am..."
Tom:
It wasn't anything so... specific. He actually had a miserable time for the months he was there. He just, he couldn't get his job done.
Annie:
Did he have a bunch of attention? Was that the reason that he couldn't do his job? Was he, I don't know, cast... Did he have jury duty? That was televised or something? Was he randomly selected for...
Bernadette:
Wait! Was he recruited for the Polish spy...?
Tom:
Oh, double agent stuff!
Matt:
Ah!
Tom:
Hm...
Bernadette:
Without them knowing, but then they did a background check, and they're like, wait a minute, this doesn't...
Tom:
No he wasn't, but that... If I say that would be more interesting in fiction, that is a strange clue.
Matt:
Was he an author? Did he write spy books?
Tom:
Now we are getting closer. We are definitely getting closer.
Matt:
Was he too autobiographical with what he wrote?
Tom:
Oh, almost the exact opposite problem, Matt.
Bernadette:
Wait, who wrote James Bond?
Matt:
Ian Fleming.
Tom:
Mhm.
Matt:
Was it Ian Fleming?
Tom:
It wasn't, but this was 1964. What might the Polish officers... be aware of, in 1964, around then?
Matt:
James Bond?
Tom:
Oh, James Bond.
Matt:
Did he dress like James Bond? Did he style himself like James Bond? Like with the... Did he ask for a shaken, not stirred cocktail, or something stupid like that?
Tom:
So the first James Bond film, Dr. No, came out in 1962. They'd have been, you know, a few years since Ian Fleming first wrote the character, but the film was popular. Even in Poland.
Matt:
Oh, it's back to the farce thing again. They open up the door, and they go, "Oh, he's in the room," and he's lying on his back on a metal table, with a laser shining between his legs.
Tom:
(laughs heartily)
Matt:
"No, it's not what it looks like!"
Tom:
Matt, obviously not that. But why might the Polish officers have paid a lot more attention to this particular Brit coming in?
Matt:
Oh, was he called James Bond?
Tom:
Yes, his name was James Bond.
Matt:
(cackles, wheezes) Was that a pseudonym, or was that his actual name?
Tom:
James Albert Bond was an officer in the Ordnance Corps. He took the job. The real job was gaining access to Soviet military facilities. But the Polish officers saw "James Bond" and went, "Well, that's obviously a spy."
And so he was just under constant surveillance. Like, he may not have been a spy, but they weren't not gonna surveil a Brit called James Bond.
Bernadette:
I mean, yeah.
Annie:
I can't believe that... the British intelligence let him be a spy.
Tom:
His wife recounted that they passed written notes on important matters, because they knew their apartment was bugged. They were tailed when leaving the apartment. They were watched by their upstairs neighbours. His name was James Bond... and he was a spy.
Annie:
Nominative determinism once again.
Matt:
Yeah.
Bernadette:
They didn't give him a fake name and fake documents?
Matt:
Surely the service had seen the film. And had damning criticism of it.
Tom:
According to the translated article... Poland's Institute of National Remembrance found the files from the Communist era archives. Mr. Bond was described by the Poles as "talkative, but cautious and interested in women."
Bernadette:
Okay.
Tom:
He was 36 years old. His name was James Albert Bond. He arrived in Warsaw, and... they spotted him.
Bernadette:
And he's definitely not gay. For sure.
SFX:
(Matt and Tom laugh)
Bernadette:
That's a really important point.
Tom:
Yes, this was a genuine 1960s British spy called James Bond, who did not have much luck on his assignment in Poland.
Annie, it is over to you for the final guest question of the show.
Annie:
Alright, well...
My question has been sent in by David.
In Wieliczka, Poland, workers stopped mining rock salt in 1964. Yet, it still sells industrial-scale quantities of salt today. How?
Bernadette:
James Bond has something to do with it.
Annie:
In Wieliczka, Poland, workers stopped mining rock salt in 1964. Yet, it still sells industrial-scale quantities of salt today. How?
Matt:
19— It's the same year!
Bernadette:
Yeah! James Bond has got to have something to do with this.
Matt:
Yeah, absolutely.
Bernadette:
In Poland!
Annie:
I don't know. Tell me more.
Bernadette:
James Bond's mission in Poland in 1964 was to go in and sabotage the rock salt mining industry.
Tom:
(laughs)
Matt:
Yeah.
Bernadette:
He partially succeeded by somehow sabotaging the mine, but they were able to... push back and rebel against his destruction... by becoming wholesale...
Matt:
Oh no, maybe he took over the mine! He took over the mine, and is now running it as part of a front.
Tom:
Oh no, it's been hollowed out into a subterranean base with a giant rocket launcher in the middle of it, and just a lot of minions in jumpsuits and a little monorail.
Annie:
That's it!
Tom:
Yeah.
Matt:
Yeah! Well done, Tom.
Annie:
And the monorail has some sushi on it as well.
Tom:
Yes, yes! Tie it all together!
Okay, there are a lot of old salt mines in that part of the world, sort of across Poland, Romania, that have been turned into tourist attractions.
Because they are enormous caverns. They just mine and mine and mine, and they just become huge, cathedral-like underground spaces.
I think there's one in Romania where they've got a little theme park underground, inside the salt mine.
Matt:
Cluj? Might be the name of the place in Poland?
Tom:
Yes, I mean, I'm sure, between us, we're mispronouncing it.
Matt:
Yeah, I can't pronounce that.
Tom:
Cluj-Napoca, something, Cluj-Nap—
Matt:
Yeah.
Tom:
Apologies to Poland. But there's lots of places. There's one called Salina Turda, which is hilarious in English.
Matt:
Oh yes.
Tom:
But I don't know... why you would still be selling salt from that. Because the tourist attraction is not the salt. It's the giant hole in the ground with a carousel in it.
Bernadette:
Is the giant hole in the ground like a warehouse, where they can import salt, store it, and then resell it out? Like a distribution center?
Matt:
Yeah, they have a marketplace for it, I suppose, as well. They've got all the contacts and all of the info. And the place to store it.
Tom:
There's also an archive in an old salt mine in the UK.
But I mean, it's not— The thing in the UK is it's not an old salt mine. It's an active salt mine. They still mine there.
It's just that after they've carved out the caverns and the rooms and everything like that, they just fill what's left with... Well, they fill a couple of rooms of what's left with documents, and just, it's dry, it's safe, it's protected, like...
Bernadette:
James Bond had to have been working there.
Tom:
(laughs uproariously)
Bernadette:
The archivist!
Matt:
Just a sec, if they've stopped producing it... it's not a salt mine anymore. It's a salt someone else's.
Tom:
Eyy! Or... Or it's just a salt store. They mined so much salt, just an incredible quantity of salt, that they gave up mining? And they are still selling off that stockpile over years and years and years. And it has been 60 years, and there is still 1960s salt left there.
Annie:
And they, no.
Tom:
Ah!
Matt:
Oh, that sounded so good as well.
Tom:
That sounded really good. I thought, oh no, we've cracked another one early there. We haven't.
Annie:
No, you didn't.
Matt:
What I'm thinking now is... they're not mining salt, but they're getting salt in another way. So, the one other way of salt that I can think of getting is sea salt? Or water.
Annie:
Ooh. Interesting idea there.
Matt:
Maybe they're just pumping water into the same mine and getting the same salt out, but by... sucking the water out.
Tom:
Yeah, but getting sea salt requires big tidal pools, I think? You just basically need to bring seawater in and let it evaporate. You close off the water after high tide or something like that. It's very much a seaside thing for obvious reasons.
Matt:
I'm assuming Poland has a coast?
Tom:
It does.
Annie:
It's not near the sea, but it's something like that.
Matt:
What's another type of water, then?
Bernadette:
Not sea water?
Matt:
Not sea water, yeah.
Bernadette:
What about a pond or a river?
Annie:
Yeah, I think you basically got it.
Tom:
So, I mean, talk us through it, what's...
Annie:
So, until 1964, salt was excavated from the Wieliczka salt mine by directly digging it out as rock salt. But the mine has underground rivers that seep into it, eventually eroding the rock.
Matt:
Ooh.
Annie:
The fresh water dissolves some of the salt, and any water that leaks out is diverted into a huge tank. The brine is pumped to a waterworks on the surface where it's heated until it evaporates under a very low pressure. This leaves behind pure salt, which can be sold for a variety of applications, including cosmetics.
Tom:
It's industrial, it's not a sea salt thing. It's just that, rather than having to hammer it out, you just let the water do the work.
Matt:
I suppose they would be having to pump that water out anyway to have the humans mining the salt.
Tom:
That's true.
Matt:
Otherwise they would be, what's it called, drowning.
SFX:
(Tom and Matt laugh)
Tom:
We have unlocked the shiny bonus question, thanks to some very quick solves there.
So thank you to Travis C. for this.
Why was Rachel praised, not arrested, when people saw her throw stones at a house?
I'll say that again.
Why was Rachel praised, not arrested, when people saw her throw stones at a house?
Annie:
She had a crush on somebody in the upstairs part of the house, so she was just throwing rocks at the window, to say hi.
Matt:
I tell you what, that would scare me off, I think.
SFX:
(Tom and Annie chuckle)
Matt:
As a potential partner.
SFX:
(Matt and Annie giggle)
Tom:
Yeah. Not throwing one pebble at a time. Just big, big whole of pebbles. (boosh)
Bernadette:
A whole boulder, just...
Tom:
Yeah. (laughs)
Matt:
A brick through the window with a love note attached.
Annie:
Yeah, surely they will be impressed by how strong I am.
Bernadette:
She's trying to free a hostage. Someone's stuck in the house, and she has to free them through the window.
Annie:
Or, she's trying to kill somebody bad inside the house with a rock.
Tom:
There is no property damage here at all.
Matt:
She's not very good at it then.
Tom:
No, she's—
Annie:
Rachel.
Tom:
Well, actually, she's pretty good at this.
Annie:
Throwing a rock? It's probably not a dart. It's probably not a game of darts, but...
Matt:
Oh, game, is it a board game?
Tom:
It is a game. It is a game. Well done.
Bernadette:
Is it that game where you hit a ball against a wall? But with a rock?
Matt:
We've run out of spare tennis balls. So we're gonna start playing with a... We'll play squash, but with a rock.
Bernadette:
So it's the apocalypse.
Annie:
It's like the Flintstones, where they play baseball with...
Matt:
(giggles)
Tom:
Wait, what with? With a rock and presumably a bird to hit it, because everything in The Flintstones was animal cruelty.
Annie:
(laughs)
Matt:
Oh, it was, wasn't it? I never thought that.
Annie:
So, okay, so this rock throwing, is this happening outside the house? At the house? Or was it happening in the house?
Tom:
It's happening indoors.
Annie:
Okay.
Matt:
At a house, but indoors.
Annie:
Oh, she's throwing a rock at a tiny house. Okay, maybe. Maybe it's a dollhouse.
Matt:
Is rock a play on words?
Tom:
Uhm, it is—
Matt:
Is she throwing Dwayne Johnson?
Tom:
Well, the question was throwing stones at a house. Stones is very literal, house is not.
Bernadette:
Is it stones, wait. Stones like the hard thing, not like the weight, right?
Tom:
Yep, yep.
Bernadette:
Okay.
Tom:
Like the hard thing. In a game.
Matt:
Yeah, 'cause the place I was going there, was stones could mean dice or something.
Annie:
Is it like bowling?
Tom:
It's like bowling. It's very like bowling. But not quite. It's weird.
Annie:
Think of how fun it could be if it we had is a house instead of pins.
Matt:
Is it Kubb?
Bernadette:
Is it like the Wii? Where you have a remote control, and it's digital?
Tom:
No, I think in order of how close you are: Wii is quite far away. Kubb, which is the, sort of—
Matt:
It's like an ancient north bowling thing, isn't it?
Tom:
Little bit closer. Bowling, a lot closer, but you've... Stones. Not throwing—
Bernadette:
Curling!
Tom:
Curling!
Matt:
Oh! House?
Bernadette:
Why's she curling inside?
Matt:
Ice rinks are inside?
Tom:
Curling rinks, and they are inside, and—
Bernadette:
Oh, she's not in her own house!
Tom:
No, she's throwing stones at a house, and the house is what in curling?
Bernadette:
I don't know how curling works. The pins?
Matt:
Is it the collection of stones at the end of the rink?
Tom:
It is the target. It's the circular area at the end that you're aiming for with your curling stones, the big literal lump of rock that you are speeding down the ice.
Matt:
Oh, yes, they call them stones, and they're all made from marble from one island or something, aren't they?
Tom:
Yep. Proper curling stones come from one Scottish island, and they are made out of rock. They are very heavy, they slide down the ice, and where they land is called a house.
Matt:
I would not want to live there. Trying to get to sleep knowing that one of those curling stones could be entering the room at any moment.
Bernadette:
That does sound like property damage to me. Imminently.
Tom:
At any time, a curling stone could enter your house.
Matt:
That sounds like a... a 1950s informational film. Beware curling stones. At any time, it could be entering your home.
Tom:
Which brings me to the question from the start of the show.
Why did Amberlei give her niece some banknotes in a block of ice to fulfill a Christmas wish?
Before I give the audience the answer, do any of the panel want to go for that question?
Matt:
All my ideas are really bad.
Tom:
Honestly, this is a bad idea. If you're thinking of it, go for it.
Annie:
I just thought maybe the niece really didn't want her to use the hammer.
Matt:
(laughs)
Bernadette:
She wants it to be from the North Pole.
Matt:
Aww.
Tom:
The niece—
Matt:
That's really cute.
Tom:
It is, and it was a Christmas present... but it wasn't that. That wasn't the reference we're going for here.
Matt:
I've done the thing where I wrap a small present in bigger, stupid shaped boxes to think that it's something else. But ice sounds very impractical for that.
Tom:
It is a prank, of sorts, although obviously she's still got the cash at the end of it. There is—
Bernadette:
(gasps) She wants cold, hard cash!
Tom:
Yes, she does, Bernadette!
Matt:
Aw, well done.
Tom:
Absolutely right.
Amberlei Oates posted a TikTok of her giving some US dollars in a block of ice. Put the notes in a plastic bag, put them in water in a container, put the container in the freezer, and you have cold, hard cash.
Congratulations to all of our players.
We will start with Bernadette. What's going on in your lives? Where can people find you?
Bernadette:
I'm on YouTube at Bernadette Banner doing all sorts of rambling about fashion history and sewing things.
Tom:
Matt.
Matt:
I am at @MattGrayYES on all the social media. Type Matt Gray into YouTube to find me having a go at people's weird and wonderful jobs.
Tom:
And Annie.
Annie:
I'm on most social media as Depths of Wikipedia or as @AnnieRAU.
Tom:
And if you wanna know more about this show, you can do that at lateralcast.com, where you can also send in your own ideas for questions. We are at @lateralcast basically everywhere, and there are regular video highlights at youtube.com/lateralcast.
Thank you to Annie Rauwerda.
Annie:
Thanks.
Tom:
Matt Gray!
Matt:
Woo!
Tom:
Bernadette Banner!
Bernadette:
Can I have lower energy?
Tom:
That's fine. You are welcome to do that.
Matt:
It's nap time now.
Bernadette:
It's just like, I feel like I should go, "Woo..." Sorry.
Tom:
I've been Tom Scott, and that's been Lateral.
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