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Episode 126: A less-safe safe
Published 7th March, 2025
Inés Dawson, Jenny Draper and Wren Weichman face questions about smallholder snags, spurned suitors and shop security.
HOST: Tom Scott. QUESTION PRODUCER: David Bodycombe. EDITED BY: Julie Hassett at The Podcast Studios, Dublin. MUSIC: Karl-Ola Kjellholm ('Private Detective'/'Agrumes', courtesy of epidemicsound.com). ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS: Adam Tillowitz, Courtney, Jacob W., Nate, Dillon Rodriguez-Currie, B. King, Rob Dahl. FORMAT: Pad 26 Limited/Labyrinth Games Ltd. EXECUTIVE PRODUCERS: David Bodycombe and Tom Scott.
Transcript
Transcription by Caption+
Tom:
In what game might you be frustrated if you draw an Old MacDonald?
The answer to that at the end of the show. My name's Tom Scott, and this is Lateral.
Hello, and a special welcome to any new listeners. If you're not familiar with the format of Lateral, let me sum it up like this. It's like a quiz where the most obvious answer is usually hiding between three slightly less obvious answers. All of which are wrong.
Let's meet our guests, who are here to provide wrong answers in interesting ways.
First, we have: London tour guide with a YouTube channel, J Draper. Welcome back to the show.
Jenny:
Hello, it's great to be back.
Tom:
It is lovely to have you back.
The last thing I saw from you online was a surprisingly bloody video about executions that managed to make it past all of YouTube's filter guidelines.
Jenny:
(giggles)
Tom:
Well done.
Jenny:
Thank you very much. I only used a small amount of real blood in it. It was mostly fake blood.
Tom:
And a lot of red yarn, as I remember.
Jenny:
A lot of red yarn, beads, yeah. I do disembowel myself on camera.
Tom:
(cackles softly) Thank you for coming back on the show.
It is, I think, low season for tour guides at the moment as we record this.
Jenny:
Yes, that's right. We're at the beginning of the year. So January, February is very, very quiet for tourists in London.
Tom:
But you are still getting the occasional gig, just gearing up for the new year?
Jenny:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and then once it gets to March, it'll be back on. Especially, Easter, all the Americans will come back. Yeah.
Tom:
Well, speaking of the Americans, good luck to you, Jenny, tonight, because we have with us:
visual effects artist, engineer, and part of the Corridor Crew, Wren Weichman! Welcome back!
Wren:
What's up? Thanks for having me back!
Tom:
We do have to acknowledge right now that you are in Los Angeles, and at time of recording... there's a bit of fire going on. Are you okay? How are things going?
Wren:
We lost a little bit of power on the first night of the windstorm. But apart from that, at least me and all my co-workers and friends have been safe. We've— We're far away from the fire, so it's not that big of a deal.
Los Angeles is a very large place! And even though the fires are big, most of LA is not on fire.
Tom:
Well, I'm glad you're not on fire.
How are you feeling about being back after a while?
Wren:
Oh, I'm feeling great! I'm ready to go. I'm trying to think sideways, and upways, lateral ways.
Tom:
Alright, well, very best of luck.
Making up the last one of our trio today: with a PhD in biomechanics, streaming science on YouTube and now Twitch, Inés Laura Dawson from Draw Curiosity. Welcome back!
Inés:
It's so good to be back! And very similar to Wren, I am also running away from LA-based fires. So it's great to be here.
Tom:
Yes, you normally have a professional streaming setup and microphone.
Inés:
(giggles) Yes.
Tom:
We are, I think, running on slightly more of an improvised setup at the minute, but it is good to know you're safe. What are you working on at the minute?
Inés:
So right now I have returned to YouTube, I stream science three times a week on Twitch, and I am currently working on a video about setting up a wasp picnic.
Wren:
(shudders)
Inés:
Which is as horrifying as it sounds.
Tom:
Deliberately attracting wasps?
Inés:
(nods silently)
Jenny:
Oh, I was expecting a tiny little wasp-sized blanket.
Inés:
Oh, it is. It does have a little tiny blanket and little shot glasses.
Jenny:
Awh.
Inés:
And a tiny little lamb rib for them. And way more wasps showed up than I was expecting them to, but it still proved the point.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Inés:
It was very effective.
Tom:
For the video, that is better than the alternative.
Inés:
(laughs)
Jenny:
Yes.
Tom:
Well, good luck to all three of you on the show today.
And remember: The correct answer... is in there somewhere. Just not where you're looking. Or there.
Jenny:
(cackles gleefully)
Tom:
Not there eith— Let's do question one.
Inés:
(giggles)
Tom:
This has been sent in by Dillon Rodriguez-Currie.
In 2024, Clark bought a brand new 'Ecoqua Plus' notebook from a stationery shop. In the back was a list of names, including Ludwig van Beethoven, Francis Bacon, and Michelangelo. Why?
I'll give you that one more time.
In 2024, Clark bought a new 'Ecoqua Plus' notebook from a stationery shop. In the back was a list of names, including Ludwig van Beethoven, Francis Bacon, and Michelangelo. Why?
Jenny:
So these are all people with B as their last names.
Wren:
Ooh.
Jenny:
Michelangelo Buonarroti.
Tom:
Excellent fact knowledge!
Jenny:
(laughs)
Wren:
Dang!
Jenny:
I just... (laughs) Beethoven and Francis Bacon, did you say the second one was?
Tom:
Francis Bacon was the other one, yes.
Jenny:
But since you didn't know, I'm guessing that's not actually important.
Tom:
It is unfortunately not actually important.
Beethoven, obviously the composer, Michelangelo, the sculptor and painter. Francis Bacon?
Jenny:
A scientist. If it's— If it— Well, it depends on which Francis Bacon it is. There's an artist from the 20th century, and there's a scientist from the 16th.
Inés:
I was thinking Bacon numbers? Is he trying to...
Jenny:
(cackles)
Inés:
reduce the Bacon number from him to all of the others? But I don't think it's that.
Tom:
That's Kevin Bacon, not Francis Bacon.
Inés:
I was gonna say, I'm pretty sure it's Kevin Bacon. Okay, so what year is... Okay, Beethoven I don't think is quite 16th century.
Jenny:
Beethoven is 18th... No, early 19th, I think.
Inés:
Early 19th.
Wren:
I feel like I don't know any of these right now. I know the names of two out of the three, and that's about it.
Inés:
What kind of notebook is this? Is it trying to imply that this is the kind of notebook that you could write music like Beethoven, that you could write scientific notes... like the scientist?
Tom:
I think they're certainly trying to imply that, yes.
Wren:
Ecoqua. Is that like... 'eco-friendly qua'? Or is Ecoqua a single word brand name type thing?
Jenny:
Yeah, is it a brand name, or does it stand for something?
Tom:
I wouldn't worry too much about that right now.
Wren:
Okay.
Inés:
My morbid mind thinks of Death Note , and none of these people are alive. Just trying to imply it's also effective in that way.
Wren:
(laughs)
Inés:
Don't quote me on that though.
SFX:
(Tom and Inés laugh)
Inés:
I never said that.
Jenny:
Buy this normal product from WHSmith and kill your enemies.
Tom:
(laughs)
Jenny:
I actually don't know what happens in Death Note.
Tom:
I think that is basically how it works, yes. I just don't think you buy it in WHSmith.
Jenny:
(cackles deeply)
Inés:
That is the version if Death Note were British.
Tom:
Oh, yeah. (laughs) If Death Note were British, it just arrives on a grubby Wetherspoons carpet.
SFX:
(Inés and Jenny laugh)
Jenny:
There's like a Greggs sausage roll there.
Tom:
Oh yeah, the Death Roll. That's the...
Jenny:
The Death Roll.
Inés:
(giggles)
Wren:
So these three people listed in this notebook, are they... What are their nationalities? Michelangelo is probably Italian, right? Or am I wrong on that?
Jenny:
He's Italian, yeah.
Inés:
Beethoven is German, I think?
Jenny:
Yeah, I think so. And Francis Bacon is English.
Wren:
Okay, so you—
Tom:
Depending on the Francis Bacon. You did name two of them.
Jenny:
Depending on which one it is.
Wren:
And you didn't clarify which is which.
Jenny:
And you didn't clarify.
Tom:
I didn't.
Jenny:
But you were going to, weren't you? And then you stopped yourself.
SFX:
(Tom and Wren laugh)
Tom:
There are some other names printed there as well. I wouldn't try and draw a link specifically between those three. Those are some of the names that are included.
Inés:
So is it just famous people? Is this like... nine out of ten famous people would use this notebook to write their notes in? And those are the names that they chose to include?
Tom:
You're along the right lines with that, Inés. But, oddly, not confident enough there for the advertising.
Inés:
Is this to do with, what kind of print does this notebook have? Because you mentioned lines. I'm like, is it the lines where they put the things on? Is it a blank notebook? What kind of patterning?
Tom:
This is actually a little leaflet, tucked in the back.
Wren:
Hnnh.
Tom:
You're nearly there, Inés.
Jenny:
They've not got Michelangelo plugging their notebook, have they? Michelangelo says, "Buy this notebook."
Tom:
It's not...
Jenny:
That wouldn't make sense.
Tom:
Why wouldn't that make sense?
Jenny:
Because he's dead and didn't buy notebooks.
Tom:
Didn't he?
Jenny:
Leonardo da Vinci did. He's famous for his notebooks. Is that what we're talking about?
Tom:
How do you know he didn't buy notebooks?
Jenny:
Mmmmmm. I guess— I mean, I guess he did, right? Or, made them? Err...
Wren:
He acquired paper somehow, at some point.
Tom:
He did, yes.
Wren:
Ha, got you.
SFX:
(both laugh)
Tom:
Well, no, Wren, keep thinking about that.
Wren:
Okay.
Tom:
Where did he get the paper from?
Wren:
Ecoqua.
Tom:
(grumbles hesitantly)
Inés:
Is this ecologically sourced paper that is recycled and may have somehow been recycled from sources or cities where they were from? "We used the notes of da Vinci and Michelangelo."
Tom:
Oh, no. No, no.
Inés:
"We trashed their art."
Jenny:
We pulped them up real good.
Inés:
(laughs)
Tom:
Ecoqua is just the name of the notebook. The actual company behind it is called Fabriano.
Wren:
Fabriano!
Inés:
Okay, that's Italian.
Tom:
Yeah. Yeah, that's Italian.
Inés:
Is this all Italian paper, and all of them used paper from those sources in the past? So they're like, "We're the modern version of the business. And they would use our notebooks because they use the paper from the same spot."
Tom:
You can have even more confident marketing than that.
Jenny:
It's the same company. It's the same company.
Tom:
Yes!
Inés:
Oh!
Tom:
It is the same company.
Wren:
These guys used our notebooks!
Jenny:
No! What?
Tom:
Exactly right. Yes. Fabriano has been making paper since 1264.
Jenny:
No!
Wren:
Oh my god.
Tom:
So their website and their products include a list of – I mean, they call them testimonials – but it's just, here is a list of famous people through history who at some point bought paper from Fabriano.
Inés:
See, I'm in America now, and nothing's old here.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Jenny:
Did you know which Bacon it was?
Tom:
It was, and well done on getting this one, Jenny. It was the 20th century Irish-British painter. It was not the English philosopher.
Inés:
And also not Kevin Bacon.
Wren:
(laughs)
Inés:
But one sec, I'm gonna place an order for one of these notebooks, and if I ever become...
Tom:
That's how they get you.
Inés:
(laughs)
Tom:
You buy a notebook from them, and they proudly claim that they are the people who sold paper to Beethoven and Michelangelo, to Georgia O'Keeffe, to Federico Fellini, to Giuseppe Garibaldi.
Inés:
To Tom Scott?
Tom:
Not yet. But in a few centuries, perhaps our names will be on there too.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Jenny:
Once they've heard this plug from Lateral with Tom Scott.
Tom:
Wren, the next question is yours.
Wren:
This question comes from Jacob W, and he asks:
Owners of a Swedish mobile phone shop were distressed to see that the front of the store had been vandalized during a failed break in. But instead of fixing the damage, they found a creative way of turning this to their advantage. But how?
Owners of a Swedish mobile phone shop were distressed to see that the front of the store had been vandalized during a failed break in. Instead of fixing the damage though, they found a creative way of turning this to their advantage. How?
Inés:
I have an idea.
Tom:
Okay, you're excited about this idea.
Inés:
Did they try and break the glass of the shop, and therefore they said, "Our screens are as un-destructible..."
Tom:
(laughs)
Inés:
"as the front of our shop"? I refuse to believe it's anything other than that.
Jenny:
Yeah, that's gotta be it.
Wren:
I mean, I think you're on the right track.
Inés:
Okay.
Tom:
But not close enough, apparently. I mean, I was just thinking that someone threw a Nokia 3310 at it, and somehow it didn't go through.
Jenny:
Bounced off, hit him in the face.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Jenny:
Did they change what the graffiti said to make it into an advert? Like... "This store sucks", and they were like, "This store sucks amazing"?
Wren:
Yeah, they did see it as a marketing opportunity.
Inés:
What kind of vandalisation was it? Because I guess—
Tom:
Oh yeah. 'Cause in my head, it was graffiti and spray paint and things like that.
Inés:
I was thinking smashing in. Other people are thinking graffiti. Tom was thinking chucking a brick phone.
SFX:
(Tom and Inés laugh)
Tom:
I mean, my brain went chuck a brick at it, and it's a mobile phone shop. So you throw an old Nokia.
Wren:
I mean, think about what part of the shop could have been damaged first.
Inés:
You would usually enter through the window, if not through the door.
Jenny:
So is there a display in the window?
Inés:
Is this something where there's some sort of creative... Because I know, and pardon the words, but I know that Swedish... It was in Sweden, right?
Wren:
Yes.
Inés:
For example, there are words like 'slut' , which means exit or close, or something like that. Or 'fart' for speed.
SFX:
(Tom and Inés laugh)
Inés:
Are they using a word that has some sort of double entendre, and they've made it sound good for the phone?
Wren:
Not quite a play on words. It's much more literal, in the sense of like... you know, damage was done, and they saw a marketing opportunity.
Jenny:
Did the— When they broke the glass and the window, did it make a big circle, and they turned it into a halo... around the phone?
Wren:
Not a halo, but you're very close. Honestly, the first thing you said was very close. (chuckles)
Jenny:
Was it graffiti? Was it a spray paint message?
Wren:
No, it wasn't graffiti. It was damage.
Tom:
It sounds like it's smashed glass.
Wren:
Yeah, the shop window had been broken.
Inés:
A shop so good, everyone wants to break in.
Jenny:
Yeah, our prices are criminal.
Tom:
Wait, you said mobile phone shop, or cell phone shop.
Wren:
Yeah.
Tom:
Are they selling new phones, or is this like one of those repair shops that stitches things up afterwards?
Inés:
I was thinking the repair type.
Wren:
They also do repairs.
Tom:
Then I think I figured this, but I'm gonna let someone else get the save on this one.
Jenny:
Oh, no, I think you've got it, man. Go for it.
Tom:
Did they just make it look like it was a mobile phone screen? Or the cover of one? They just took the smashed glass, and were like, "Does your phone look like this? We can fix it."
Wren:
That's exactly what they did! That's exactly what they did!
Inés:
Oh my god!
Wren:
They put up a sign next to the giant crack in the window and said, "Does your phone screen look like this? We can help."
SFX:
(group laughing)
Inés:
Okay. Similar but not quite to what I was thinking.
Wren:
Yeah, it was so close. And it was the first thing you said. So I was like, but... that was kind of basically it.
Inés:
But I'm gonna say one thing, which is: if I say that they have that there, and they haven't fixed it...
Tom:
That's true.
Inés:
Can they actually deliver on the promise?
Wren:
(laughs heartily)
Tom:
Come and buy the new screen protector.
Jenny:
Yeah, can you make a whole window out of mobile phone glass?
Inés:
They put a screen protector on top. Try breaking in now.
SFX:
(Tom and Jenny laugh)
Tom:
Thank you to B. King for this next question.
Around the year 1900, an Argentinian man asked a woman he hardly knew to marry him, but she refused. This was a great relief to the man, but not a surprise. Why did the woman willingly go to the local authorities to help the man?
I'll say that again.
Around the year 1900, an Argentinian man asked a woman he hardly knew to marry him, but she refused. This was a great relief to the man, but not a surprise. Why did the woman willingly go to the local authorities to help the man?
Wren:
My first gut reaction is that... is like... he's trying to get citizenship or something like that, and he just found a random person in this new country he's in.
He's like, "Hey, will you marry me?"
She's like, "No."
And he's like, "Okay, thank god. 'Cause I don't want to marry you either, but I need help here. Can someone help me not..."
I don't know.
Jenny:
He needs something from her, right? 'Cause she... She's, like, "I'm not going to marry you, but I will go to the authorities," whatever that means.
Wren:
What country are they in?
Tom:
Argentina.
Jenny:
She's in Argentina.
Wren:
Well, no, he's Argentinian. But it didn't say that they were in Argentina.
Tom:
Oh, you've got how this game works. But in this case, yes, they are both in Argentina.
Inés:
Is this some sort of... arranged marriage... but it's actually secretly a romantic story, and they're both in love with other people, so them saying no... means that they actually get to choose someone for love, as opposed for an arranged Argentinian marriage?
Wren:
And they went to the authorities, which I initially interpreted as the police. But that's not necessarily true.
Jenny:
No.
Wren:
Who are the authorities and... Did they go to the church?
Jenny:
Does he want to marry her? Why would he want to marry her? To get out of... To get out of national service or... something?
Tom:
So, you're starting to get along the right lines there, but it was not to do with conscription, or anything war related.
Inés:
Inheritance taxes?
Jenny:
Yeah, there's some countries, do have weird inheritance things where you have to get married or else you don't get it.
Tom:
Now, it's not exactly that, but I'm gonna keep my mouth shut here, because you're getting very close.
Jenny:
Hmm. What else might you want out of a marriage... that you could change the law for instead?
Inés:
Health insurance.
Tom:
The most American answer.
Jenny:
Yeah. "Green cards". "Health insurance".
Inés:
Is this something... along the lines of... in order to be in the country, he needed to have a wedding date set? So someone has to show up... to the wedding.
Jenny:
This is some fanfic you've got going right here. We've got to get married, or else... the law is gonna get me.
SFX:
(Inés and Tom laugh)
Tom:
I'm gonna take you back to when you were talking about taxes. Inheritance taxes, things like that. It's not inheritance, but you were very close there.
Wren:
Income tax, they... they could save a lot of money if they got married. But why would she want to help? Why would she need to then help him by going to the authorities?
Tom:
And remember, they're not getting married.
Wren:
And they're, yeah, they're not getting married.
Inés:
Is it so that the state won't take his money when he dies? So he needs to at least have someone that it could go to?
Jenny:
Does he have to offer to marry her for some reason? And...
Wren:
Is he trying to buy a house from her? Is she trying to buy a house from him?
Tom:
No, although he did pay her.
Wren:
Pay her for what?
Inés:
Is he already married and might potentially go through a divorce, but because she says no, he doesn't have to get divorced, or he doesn't have to pay alimony or something like that?
Tom:
Oh, you are getting so close to the answer through all of this. You've basically said all the parts of it separately.
Wren:
(shouts, laughs)
Jenny:
Just gotta pick which parts out were right from each of our answers, and put them together in a big slurry.
Inés:
Is he trying to re-marry his ex-wife, so that he does—
Tom:
Nope. Nope. In fact, he's never been married.
Wren:
Okay.
Tom:
That's kind of important here.
Wren:
And he hardly knew this woman.
Tom:
Yep, she's turned him down, and he's paid her.
Wren:
What was he paying her for?
Tom:
Turning him down.
Jenny:
Because he would get money if he... If she turned him down, he's gonna get some money. And he's giving her a cut?
Tom:
Kind of, yeah.
Wren:
(gruffly) Ohh.
Tom:
It's not so much that he's gonna get money.
Jenny:
He's not gonna get taxed.
Tom:
Why might that be?
Inés:
Oh, is this like some sort of... gift? When you give a monetary gift to a family member... you don't have to pay income tax on it... if you're married in some way. But maybe it benefits her more to not be married.
Tom:
It's the exact opposite of that, Inés. You're kind of looking at it the wrong way 'round. What might Argentina be taxing?
Jenny:
Taxing the marriage certificate.
Tom:
Mm, no!
Jenny:
Taxing being single?
Tom:
Yes!
Jenny:
What?
Inés:
(laughs) Wait.
Jenny:
What?
Tom:
Keep talking. What's going on here?
Jenny:
He's got a bachelor tax to pay?
Tom:
Yes. Around 1900, bachelors were taxed in Argentina. So, talk me through the situation. What's happened here?
Jenny:
So, he's got to marriageable age, at which he's gonna have to start paying bachelor tax.
Tom:
Yeah.
Jenny:
This is some fanfic. This is...
SFX:
(others laughing)
Wren:
He's like, "How do I get out of this? Hey, you there. Come here, marry me."
Jenny:
"I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. There's only one bed. And for tax reasons, we have to get married."
Tom:
No, no, no. Hold on. She turned him down.
Jenny:
Right, she turns him down.
Tom:
That was not a surprise. So what's happening there?
Wren:
But then why would she go on to then help him? How could she help him?
Jenny:
If you ask someone, and they turn you down, you don't have to pay it. If you try and get married, you don't have to pay it.
Tom:
That's it!
Wren:
Ohhh!
Inés:
Ohh!
Wren:
Ohhh!
Inés:
A heartbreak tax relief!
Wren:
You just have to prove that you attempted, and that's what she was doing. She's like, "Hey authorities, yes, he did ask me to get married, but..."
Jenny:
Oh my god, why haven't the fanfic writers come up with this one?
Tom:
Yep, around 1900, bachelors were taxed in Argentina. However, they could be declared exempt if it could be shown that they had been spurned by a potential fiancée.
Inés:
Spurned?!
SFX:
(Wren and Inés laugh)
Wren:
What?
Tom:
So, for a brief period, there were ladies set up as professional rejecters.
Jenny:
Oh, I have heard about this!
Tom:
For a fee, they would turn down offers of marriage and then go to the authorities and confirm that they had turned down a marriage offer, and the man would be exempt from bachelor tax.
Jenny:
That's nuts.
Inés:
To be a heartbreaker for a living.
SFX:
(Tom and Wren laugh)
Tom:
Jenny, your question next, please.
Jenny:
This question has been sent in by Courtney from North Carolina.
In 2021, the state of Ohio issued a new vehicle license plate. The illustration at the top featured a plane and a banner reading "Ohio – Birthplace of Aviation". Why were the license plates recalled?
I'll say it again.
In 2021, the state of Ohio issued a new vehicle license plate. The illustration at the top featured a plane and a banner reading "Ohio – Birthplace of Aviation". Why were the license plates recalled?
Wren:
I think I know the answer. I know the answer.
Tom:
Wren, you sit out of this one then. It's on to me and Inés, and... I have been to Dayton, Ohio. I have seen the field that the Wright brothers did their early experiments on. And... I can't figure out what I... Nnngh!
Inés:
My... my guess... is along the lines of... Is the placement of the word 'Ohio', like specifically the H, gonna look like a certain two towers that got hit by a plane, and therefore it looks... very inappropriate?
Jenny:
What?
Tom:
No!
Jenny:
No! (giggles)
Wren:
What?
Inés:
Okay!
Tom:
Okay.
Jenny:
Sorry! (laughs)
Tom:
The way you were reacting, Jenny, I thought they nailed it. Were you both thinking that it was a 9/11 reference accidentally?
Inés:
I thought it was an unfortunate 9/11 reference, yes.
Jenny:
No! Oh, that would be awful. Has that happened?
Wren:
Okay. I thought you're reacting as in that was the answer. And I was like, "Oh, I..."
Jenny:
No, I react this way to everything.
SFX:
(Tom and Jenny laugh)
Jenny:
No, I was reacting because I was surprised to hear it. If... If... If I knew what she was going to say, I wouldn't have been so surprised, but—
Tom:
Wren, was that what you had in your head as well?
Wren:
Absolutely not.
Tom:
Okay.
Wren:
See, I thought the birthplace of aviation was not in Ohio.
Jenny:
Where did you think it was?
Wren:
Kitty Hawk, North Carolina.
Jenny:
Why would it be there?
Tom:
That was the first Wright brothers' flight, wasn't it?
Wren:
What was it, December 3rd, 1903, was the first flight of an airplane, and that was in Kitty Hawk, and I think that's in North Carolina?
Tom:
Dayton likes to call itself the birthplace of flight. Dayton, Ohio, and Ohio in general.
And the Wright brothers started out there. There were certainly early experiments there. The modern day copy of the Wright B Flyer, the first commercially produced aircraft, lives in an airport just there in Ohio.
So they really do like claiming aviation heritage, even if the actual first flight is up for debate.
Wren:
Yeah, 'cause the first flight was— It's the big famous first flight, where they flew for 13 seconds or whatever it was, and that was at Kitty Hawk.
And so I— It depends on the definition of where flight was born. Was it there, or was it all the work that went into the plane beforehand, which I guess was Ohio?
Ohio, the pregnancy of flight.
SFX:
(others laugh uproariously)
Jenny:
The gestation.
Wren:
Yeah. (laughs)
Tom:
Yeah, yeah.
Jenny:
I think it is... I think it is significant that the person who sent in this question is from North Carolina. However, it's not to do with the answer.
Wren:
Interesting, okay.
Tom:
Okay.
Jenny:
I think you've guessed why a North Carolinian sent this in.
SFX:
(group chuckling)
Inés:
Did someone in North Carolina... complain about that statement?
Jenny:
I'm sure they did. What's Ohio going to do about it?
Tom:
I was going to say the state of North Carolina could complain about that, but there's not much they can really do. It has to be some sort of mistake with the plate itself.
Wren:
Okay, so describe the plate again.
Jenny:
A plane and a banner reading "Ohio – Birthplace of Aviation."
Tom:
Surely this has to be something... to do with a typo, a design mistake, something like that.
Jenny:
You are quite right to guess that it was the
Tom:
Wright Flyer
Jenny:
, the Wright brothers' plane.
Wren:
Okay.
Jenny:
On the license plate.
Tom:
Okay, I have to just drop a travel story in here.
I once filmed in the replica of the Wright B Flyer. There is a working replica. A couple of them actually. There's one in Dayton, Ohio. And they've modernised it to kind of be within modern experimental standards.
But you're still just kind of... on the front of it. There's not a cockpit. There's just a couple of seats attached to the front, and you're strapped in. There's nothing between you and the world other than your goggles.
Jenny:
(giggles)
Tom:
If you hit a fly at that speed, it's just, it's going in your face.
Jenny:
Oh, rancid.
Tom:
It's an experience.
Wren:
(shudders)
Tom:
But they also had to update it a little to make it work. So the early Wright Flyer did not have ailerons or any way to steer it in the air, other than flexing the wings. You had to literally sort of slightly collapse one of the wings in order to turn it.
Wren:
Yeah, the whole thing would flex and twist, right?
Tom:
Yeah.
Inés:
This sounds like an insect flying, I have to say.
Tom:
(laughs) Well, I mean, that's what they were basing it on. What's nature doing? Well, we can't flap. Let's try this instead.
Inés:
Is this something like the automobile industry was upset that another vehicle was being celebrated on the license plates, and they were worried it was going to affect the sale of registration plates?
Jenny:
Those durrn aircrafts.
Inés:
(giggles)
Jenny:
Taking all our prestige.
Wren:
I feel like it's something surrounding the context of the plane and the banner and the quote. The placement of it.
Tom:
And it's a design problem, yeah.
Wren:
Some sort of thing where it's like this dude from North Carolina... Or maybe the... maybe he brought up the question, but maybe not the original recalling of the plate. But the plate was recalled. So there's some sort of legal reason for the plate to be... disqualified from production, I guess.
Tom:
Or maybe not legal. Maybe it's just really embarrassing. If you're gonna be birthplace of flight... and you've... and your designer doesn't really know how planes work, and has decided to...
Jenny:
Yes.
Tom:
It's not this because the Wright Flyer just has a prop at the front. But they put the banner on at the front of the plane, and it would have torn through the props and been destroyed, or something like that.
Wren:
Oh! They put the plane backwards!
Inés:
I was gonna say, it's like—
Jenny:
Boom!
Tom:
No!
Wren:
They put the plane backwards!
Jenny:
They put the plane backwards.
Wren:
Because the Wright brothers' plane is a weird looking plane. It has the back at the front, and that's how it flies.
And then later, years later, that's when they figured, "Oh, that should go on the back of the plane." And the guy didn't know any better how this plane works, so he had it the wrong way.
Inés:
If I may say, that was gonna be my guess, that the plane was backwards.
SFX:
(Inés and Tom laugh)
Tom:
I could tell, both your faces lit up on the video call at the same time, and Wren happened to get the words out first.
Inés:
Because I was thinking it for a while, but I was like, before I say something else, don't.
Tom:
Oh no, that's not— That's not how this show works.
Jenny:
You don't want to get it. That's not funny. You don't want to get it right. No, you're exactly right. I'm so glad you guys were answering this question, not me, because I had no idea what the Wright brothers' plane looked like. So yes, you are quite right, Wren. The banner was on the wrong side of the Wright Flyer. And... There is a thing on top of... at the front of the plane that kinda looks like a tail.
Wren:
Yeah.
Tom:
Yeah.
Jenny:
And so, the illustrator had drawn it dragging the banner... pushing the banner in front of it. Extremely embarrassing.
And it says down here, North Carolina and Ohio have a long-running dispute about who can claim to be the birthplace of aviation. The Wright brothers were from Ohio, but the first flight took place in North Carolina. As such, North Carolinians found the error particularly funny.
Tom:
Thank you to Rob Dahl for this question.
A company manufactures a type of security safe. In an advert, they stated that the "4-digit dial provides 6,561 different password combinations". Why?
And one more time.
A company manufactures a type of security safe. In an advert, they stated that the "4-digit dial provides 6,561 different password combinations". Why?
Inés:
Does the number just go up to 5-6-4-1, on each of the numbers?
SFX:
(Inés and Tom laugh)
Tom:
6, 5, 6, 1.
Jenny:
I'm not a math talking guy, but that doesn't sound right.
Tom:
(cracks up) It—
Jenny:
That doesn't sound like a number that would come out from you multiplying lots of numbers.
Wren:
I forget how to calculate the number of combinations. Is it factorial? Would that be four factorial? No.
Jenny:
How many options are on each dial?
Tom:
That's worth considering.
Wren:
Ohh.
Tom:
Have a think about what dials you normally get on safes. What are you picturing in your head here?
Jenny:
So either...
Wren:
(imitates dial chitter)
Jenny:
one of those padlocks where you rotate the numbers, or one of those... where it's like... in American high school lockers, they have them? 46, 39, 46.
Tom:
Yeah, as Wren put it, the (pkrkrkrkrkr) versus the (kli-kli-kli-klik), yeah.
Jenny:
Okay.
Wren:
(wheezes, cackles)
Jenny:
But this isn't that.
Inés:
(blurts laugh)
Tom:
I mean, you're not wrong. That wasn't meant as an insult. That's a really good descriptor.
Inés:
(giggles)
Wren:
Okay, so... Okay, can you say this again? Describe the safe again. Was it four separate dials?
Tom:
Yeah, so it is one of those combination locks, with four dials on it.
Inés:
So is there a reason... Okay, I'm trying to think. If one goes up to five, one goes up to six... Sorry, was it 6-5-4-1, or 5-6-4...?
Tom:
6-5-6-1.
Inés:
6-5-6-1.
Jenny:
Does that spell something? Is that like a— Is that a funny— Was it a joke? Is it, oh... This is like a SpongeBob branded safe, and in SpongeBob, he loves the number 6,561.
Tom:
That's a relatively common design of safe.
SFX:
(Jenny and Inés laugh uproariously)
Inés:
I mean, you wouldn't want to steal from Patrick Star, would you?
Jenny:
We've all got a SpongeBob safe.
Tom:
Well, more than that, it's a normal combination lock. You could find this on a padlock, on anything. It's the thing where you spin the dials.
Inés:
Is it some sort of smart lock that doesn't let you repeat a number twice in the combination, and therefore it would rule out all of the possibilities with repeat numbers? And I don't know off the top of my head if that happens to add up to that specific number.
Tom:
It doesn't, unfortunately, because...
Jenny:
Does anything add up to 6,651?
Tom:
Yes. Have a think about that. What would you expect?
Jenny:
We don't have to do maths for this, do we?
Tom:
I don't think so, no.
Wren:
If it includes zero, it's like 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9. That's ten digits on each one. So that'd be ten times ten times ten times ten. That's 10,000. But that's too many!
Jenny:
Yeah.
Tom:
That is too many.
Inés:
But, what if it were like, 10 times 9 times 8 times 7?
Tom:
That would still end in a 0.
Inés:
And I was thinking, that would still end in a 0. What if it has fewer numbers? Who said it's in base 10?
Jenny:
This can't just be a countdown round.
Wren:
But it's probably the same number— same amount of numbers on each dial.
Tom:
Yes.
Wren:
So it could— The number could be 9-9-9-9, or 1-1-1-1.
Tom:
I'm gonna just re-read the question here. In an advert, they stated that the dial has 6561 combinations.
Jenny:
Was he holding it upside down?
Tom:
You're right though, Wren. Four dials, ten numbers on each dial, that is 10,000 combinations.
Wren:
Oh my god. I just plugged a number into my calculator.
Tom:
Yep, what did you plug in, Wren?
Wren:
Are we allowed to use calculators? Because I just used one.
Tom:
I think for this one, you can, yeah.
Wren:
Okay, I multiplied four numbers together. I multiplied nine times nine times nine times nine.
Tom:
Yep.
Wren:
And got an answer equal to 6,561.
Tom:
Correct, yes.
Wren:
So, that means that...
Inés:
So there's no zero, or they forgot they have ten numbers?
Wren:
That's what it is! That's what it is! You're right! They must have just forgotten. 'Cause unless this dial doesn't have a zero, which would be weird... they just didn't think about it. This is the plane being backwards again. This is, they just didn't know any better.
Tom:
Yeah. Either the manufacturer or the copywriter for the advert had just looked at the dials and gone, "Oh, that's one through nine". So, did exactly the maths that you just did, and failed to notice that actually, that's not enough combinations, despite the fact that it's actually kind of easy to work out in your head.
SFX:
(Wren and Inés laugh)
Jenny:
Oh, nice one, Wren.
Tom:
And if you are thinking that's a bit of a technical question – Rob, who sent this in, found it... in the Facebook Dull Men's Club.
Jenny:
Oh, yeah. Classic. Classic Lat— Oh, you should mine that place for Lateral questions, honestly.
Wren:
Dull Men's Club.
Tom:
We try not to mine one place too much, you know? There's only so many questions you can get for the Dull Men's Club.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Jenny:
Tom desperately trying to pretend he's not a dull man.
Tom:
(laughs) It is surprising, though, that just missing off one digit actually drops the combinations by more than a third. You go from 10,000 to 6,500 just by having nine digits on a dial instead of ten.
Wren:
Yeah.
Jenny:
Yeah, I guess so.
Tom:
But we did not fall for that red herring, because Wren, you correctly typed nine times nine times nine times nine into a calculator.
Wren:
(laughs)
Tom:
The next guest question comes from Inés. Whenever you're ready.
Inés:
Alright, well.
This question has been sent in by Adam Tillowitz.
Once a year, Tony has to have a shave, put a small yellow sack over his head, and bob up and down while reciting some poetry. Why?
And I'll read that again.
Once a year, Tony has to have a shave, put a small yellow sack over his head, and bob up and down while reciting some poetry. Why?
Tom:
Were you worried about the mathematical questions? Was that a bit much? 'Cause we're going fully the other way now!
Jenny:
(giggles)
Wren:
A yellow sack?
Jenny:
This sounds like it's more in my wheelhouse. Did you know— I can't remember which king it was. One of the early Henrys, Henry I or Henry II, had an official court farter, whose job was to once—
Tom:
Roland the Farter!
Jenny:
Roland the Farter, whose job was to once a year perform a jump, whistle, and a fart.
SFX:
(others laughing)
Jenny:
I choose to believe that this guy is... he's got the same job, but instead, he has to jump up and down... singing the biscuit song.
SFX:
(Tom and Jenny crack up)
Jenny:
With a yellow bag on his head.
Tom:
Or maybe the modern equivalent is just the Olympic synchronised... poetry reading, swimming, bobbing thing. In my head, he's bobbing in a swimming pool. This is what the word 'bob' implies to me.
Jenny:
A classic event that we all enjoy every four years.
Tom:
Yeah, they brought it back. It used to be in the ancient Olympics. They brought it back.
Jenny:
Yeah. Traditional Greek sport.
Wren:
But first he shaved?
Inés:
Yes.
Wren:
'Cause you said he had a shave. And is that just like a Britishism... for shaving? I'm going to go have a shave. (laughs)
Jenny:
Do you not say that?
Tom:
I didn't realise that was invalid American dialect. You're right, you can absolutely go have a shave. There's other things you can go to have a, but shave is what we're going with here.
Inés:
Yes.
Wren:
Okay, so... he did that. Are these things in order? So he had a shave, then he put on a yellow sack, then he bobbed up and down while reciting poetry?
Inés:
Correct.
Tom:
I'm just assuming this is a weird English village tradition.
Wren:
(giggles)
Jenny:
I mean... they used to do that in our pub for Michaelmas every year.
SFX:
(Tom and Inés wheeze)
Tom:
For a moment, I believed you.
Jenny:
Thanks.
Inés:
I could believe it, but this is something that everyone at Tony's workplace does annually in our present year of 2025 and all the years prior.
Tom:
Everyone does?
Jenny:
Does it matter what poem it is?
Inés:
I don't think the poem matters, no.
Jenny:
It's just a poem.
Inés:
It's just the poem being recited.
Tom:
It's one of the weird rituals from Cabin in the Woods, and it stops the evil coming into the world for another year.
SFX:
(Wren and Jenny laugh)
Tom:
That's the British one. I don't know if you've seen Cabin in the Woods, horror movie. The Japanese ritual involves... schoolgirls chasing away an evil demon, and the American one is a slasher movie. They never said what the British ritual was, but I can absolutely believe it's a man in a yellow cap bobbing up and down reciting poetry while clean shaven.
Inés:
If you wanna replace every part of the answer with a metaphor...
Tom:
(giggles)
Inés:
that would be correct.
Jenny:
Go ahead.
SFX:
(Tom and Inés laugh)
Jenny:
If you want to say something that's wrong in every part...
Tom:
Yeah, no, no. I know when I'm wrong. I know when I'm wrong.
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Inés:
But I would love for that to be the answer.
Wren:
So, it's a— you said— Is it a yellow hat, or a yellow sack?
Inés:
It is a...
Tom:
A sack?
Inés:
It is a sack.
Wren:
Like a bag.
Jenny:
Is he dressed up as a character?
Inés:
So, okay, I'll give a couple clues. First of all... The colour of the sack is not relevant. It just happens to be yellow.
Tom:
Okay.
Inés:
The second clue... The sack has a clear window in it.
Jenny:
I don't know of any sacks that have clear windows, alright.
Tom:
So this has to be to see out of. Which, in my head, is one of the— I've got the Simpsons intro with that thing that Homer Simpson wears to keep the nuclear stuff off him.
Jenny:
Yeah, yeah!
Tom:
It's that kind of protective... bag thing for your head.
Jenny:
But in order to not blow up the nuclear power plant, we must appease the radiation gods.
Tom:
Yeah.
Inés:
That is kind of on the right track.
Tom:
Oh my god.
Jenny:
Okay. I mean, every lab, every science lab has a shrine. Is this just a weird ritual... to appease the science gods?
Inés:
(giggles) It is not a ritual, but I'm hearing the right sort of words... that would compose the answer.
Wren:
If, okay, but like, why would he need to shave? So, I'm— I was assuming just shaving his face, but maybe he has to get rid of all body hair or something for this situation, where he has to— Maybe it's not just a sack over his head. It's a full... it's a whole get up, and he's going into a clean room.
Tom:
That's why I was thinking synchronised swimming.
Jenny:
Yeah, that syncs up with being in the water.
Inés:
I understand it as facial hair grooming.
Tom:
Alright.
Jenny:
So what, he shaves so that he gets a tight seal, right?
Inés:
Jenny's on the right track.
Wren:
And is he reciting poetry at a certain rhythm? Like how you say, when you're doing CPR, it's at the beat of... I forget the name of the song. "Stayin' Alive".
Tom:
Or "Another One Bites the Dust", depending on how optimistic you're feeling.
SFX:
(Inés and Wren laugh)
Jenny:
Yeah.
Inés:
So, it's— it—
Wren:
Opposite.
Inés:
All it says here is he reads the poem, and he says it out loud.
Jenny:
I wandered lonely as a cloud.
SFX:
(Tom and Inés chuckle)
Jenny:
Is it to help him time something? Like the way you'd— You know when we, you know, like during the height of COVID, we all had to sing Happy Birthday... to time how long we had to wash our hands for.
Wren:
Yeah.
Jenny:
Is it like that? You've got to sing two Hail Marys.
Inés:
Not quite, but I would say that... Tom and Jenny... together you've gotten very close to the answer.
Wren:
(laughs)
Inés:
Alright. An unpleasant liquid is used during this procedure.
Jenny:
So that's, the sack is to keep the liquid out of his eyes, I guess.
Tom:
But he has to shave as well.
Inés:
Why would he be shaving? Why would he be saying poetry?
Wren:
Is he breathing in this liquid? But then he wouldn't be able to talk. Never mind.
Jenny:
Well, except if he's got a big gas mask-y thing on... and... dunks his head in the ooze... The mystery ooze.
Wren:
Oh, is he testing the seal of the bag?
Inés:
Yes.
Tom:
Oh, okay.
Inés:
So, so I would say that is what it says in the answer. But, how does this work?
Jenny:
You said he was bobbing up and down.
Wren:
He must be trying— So he got a— He shaved his face to get a clean seal. He's got this... It's a sack, a yellow sack, or, it's a sack of some sort with a window on it.
So some sort of headpiece that's supposed to seal against his skin, and he's testing it by moving around and talking and breathing through it to test the seal, and if... so that he doesn't...
Tom:
Wait, is he reciting poetry because he's a diver or something like that, and you just need to make sure the communication link's still open? If he stops talking, you have to pull him out really quickly? 'Cause there's danger?
Inés:
I would give the answer to Wren.
Tom:
Okay.
Inés:
I feel the only thing we need to figure out maybe is... how does this unpleasant liquid play a role?
Jenny:
What is this liquid? This is...
Wren:
So that he doesn't smell it or anything like that, or get— breathe it in?
Inés:
Exactly.
Wren:
Oh... what?!
Inés:
Every year, hospital workers are required to undergo fit testing for respirators, pictured...
Tom:
Ohhh!
Inés:
face masks, and hoods.
Wren:
Okay.
Inés:
A sensitivity solution, which is a liquid with a foul taste, is sprayed while the worker wears a mask. They have to do several exercises, such as breathing deeply, moving the head around, bending at the waist, and another one involves reading out loud. And if they can taste the liquid at any point, the mask is deemed to not fit. And then—
Tom:
Someone I know had to do this! How did I not get this?
Wren:
So, my wife is a nurse. And at the beginning of every year, she has to do a mask fit test. Where they put the mask on her face, and they get it fit, and then they spray this really, really terrible smelling stuff around her, and she has to move through the stuff, to make sure she can't smell it.
But that's just a regular N95 type mask, not a full... sack over a head. So that's why I didn't make that connection.
Inés:
I have a slight relevant story. (holds up P100 mask)
Tom:
Oh yeah, we're in wildfire times in LA, aren't we?
Inés:
It is wildfire times, and right. This is not my house. I've been staying with a friend for a couple weeks. But I remember I went back to my place. I bought one of these.
Tom:
Like the full-face respirator.
Inés:
This is a full-face P100 respirator. And I went back, and I had this on. And it took me a while to realise that actually the place was super smoky, because it worked so well, and I had fit tested properly.
And I realised, you know, before committing to staying there for the night, I should probably check and... it indeed smelt like musty campfire, and I scarpered off again.
Tom:
I know someone who's had to shave for that fit test, and I just did not make the connection.
Which brings us to the question that I asked at the very start of the show.
Thank you to Nate for sending this in.
In what game might you be frustrated if you draw an Old MacDonald?
Any guesses from the panel before I give the audience the answer?
Wren:
Old MacDonald. He is... He did have a farm.
Tom:
He did, yes.
Inés:
Is this like a farm card game, and it's either the least valuable card or the one that ends the game as you draw it?
Tom:
It's not a card game.
Jenny:
Is it actually called an Old MacDonald, or is that a nickname?
Tom:
That's a nickname, that's a nickname.
Jenny:
So it's like a— It's a nickname for a go to jail card or something?
Tom:
For something like that, yes.
Jenny:
Something like that.
Wren:
I'm thinking like Hangman, where you— when you finish drawing the Hangman, the game's over. But that's not Old MacDonald. You don't want to hang Old MacDonald. That's mean.
Jenny:
(blurts cackle)
What would be nicknamed an Old MacDonald?
A farmer? An E? Something that's got vowels in it? Something...
Tom:
You're not thinking about the right part of that song.
Jenny:
Don't make me say it, man. That's embarrassing.
Inés:
E I E I O?
Tom:
Keep going.
Inés:
E-I-E-I-O. Ei-ei-oh?
Wren:
These are, okay, these vowels.
Tom:
They are all vowels.
Inés:
Is this a Scrabble game? And you get—
Tom:
Yes!
Jenny:
Ohh!
Wren:
Oh!
Inés:
Yay!
Tom:
Why might you be frustrated?
Inés:
You can't make a word.
Tom:
You really can't make a word. It means that five out of the seven tiles in front of you are vowels. And it is all low value, it is all difficult to play, and Scrabble players have the nickname an Old MacDonald, if you have pulled E-I-E-I-O.
Wren:
E-I-E-I-O. Oh my god.
Tom:
And you are frustrated because there really aren't many points in that.
Wren:
There's nothing you can do either!
Tom:
Nope.
Thank you very much to all our players. Let's find out, where can people find you? What's going on in your lives?
We will start with Inés.
Inés:
Well you can find me over on Draw Curiosity , over on YouTube and on Twitch.
Tom:
Jenny.
Jenny:
You can find me at @JDraperLondon on YouTube and TikTok, or you can read my book Mavericks, coming out on February.
Tom:
Oh, I should have plugged that earlier. I have read that. It's a very good book.
Jenny:
Thank you very much.
Tom:
And Wren!
Wren:
You can find me on YouTube at Corridor Crew. We do all kinds of visual effects videos and science communication type stuff, it's fun.
Tom:
And if you want to know more about this show, you can do that at lateralcast.com, where you can also send in your own ideas for questions. We are at @lateralcast basically everywhere, and there are regular video highlights at youtube.com/lateralcast.
Thank you very much to Wren Weichman!
Wren:
Thank you!
Tom:
J Draper!
Jenny:
Thank you very much!
Tom:
Inés Laura Dawson!
Inés:
It's great to be back!
Tom:
I've been Tom Scott, and that's been Lateral.
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