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Episode 128: The cow's jaw
Published 21st March, 2025
Mary Spender, Jarvis Johnson and Jordan Adika face questions about golfing guile, charismatic comics and masterful mnemonics.
HOST: Tom Scott. QUESTION PRODUCER: David Bodycombe. EDITED BY: Julie Hassett at The Podcast Studios, Dublin. MUSIC: Karl-Ola Kjellholm ('Private Detective'/'Agrumes', courtesy of epidemicsound.com). ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS: Daniel Edgardo, Simon B., Nate, Em Andress, Sami. FORMAT: Pad 26 Limited/Labyrinth Games Ltd. EXECUTIVE PRODUCERS: David Bodycombe and Tom Scott.
Transcription by Caption+
Tom:
Los Angeles is sometimes called LA, while Orlando begins with the letters ORL. What does this help you remember?
The answer to that at the end of the show. My name's Tom Scott, and this is Lateral.
The Netflix series Stranger Things features this magical evil world called the Upside Down.
Well, I'm happy to announce that Lateral is set in a similarly magical land, but slightly less evil, called the Sideways. It's not quite as bad, except when you're trying to get a coffee outta the machine, which can get kinda messy.
Speaking of stranger things, let's meet the players.
We start with singer-songwriter and music YouTuber Mary Spender, welcome back to the show.
Mary:
Hello, thanks for having me again.
Jordan:
(applauds softly)
Mary:
Hello everyone.
Tom:
Well, thank you for coming back. It has been a while. The new studio looks wonderful.
Mary:
Thank you very, very much. I'm very proud.
Tom:
What are you working on at the minute? 'Cause I know you've just been going through a bit of a change in what you're putting out.
Mary:
I'm working away on YouTube videos this year. I put out an album last year, so I now have to write the next one. And you know how it is. You have your whole life to write your debut, and then you have five minutes to write the next one. So...
Tom:
Yep.
Mary:
YouTube is a happy balance where I can work away on, you know, ideas in music history and music business, and then write some songs in the spare time.
Tom:
Well, very best of luck on the show today, Mary.
You are joined by one half of the podcast Sad Boyz, Jarvis Johnson.
Jarvis:
Hello. Thanks for having us.
Tom:
I didn't know, as I read that off my script, whether I should call it 'Sad Boyz' or 'Sad Boyz'. Where's the emphasis?
Jarvis:
Oh, that's interesting. I don't think that's a— I don't think that's a puzzle we've cracked.
Tom:
(laughs)
Jarvis:
But we can come to a decision by the end of the show. But I like the way you said it.
Tom:
What's the podcast about?
Jarvis:
It's a podcast about feelings and other things also.
Jordan:
(finger-guns silently)
Jarvis:
But more or less, it's us kind of ranting and raving about our daily lives, talking about mental health, and also just pop culture. Goofing and gaffing with friends. It's a very formless podcast
Tom:
(laughs)
Jarvis:
...that's very long.
Tom:
And we are joined...
SFX:
(Jordan and Tom laugh)
Tom:
I'm not sure that's technically the best pitch for it, but it's what you went with. And I did notice you slipped the tagline in there.
And our third player, new to the show, the other half of the Sad Boyz podcast, Jordan Adika, kinda made finger guns at the screen at the tagline drop there.
Jordan:
Sorry, yeah, I'm not loaded. It was purely for...
Tom:
(laughs heartily)
Jarvis:
He's in America now. He's very— He's exercising open carry.
Jordan:
(imitates swishing)
Tom:
(laughs)
Jordan:
Yes, I mean, I can help. The emphasis is a very, very, very, very quiet "Sad" and a really loud "Boyz".
Jarvis:
(chuckles) "Sad BOYZ".
Tom:
Oh, don't, 'cause now, I've gotta do that, and our audio mixer's gonna have a nightmare if I say that every time. I'm going to, don't get me wrong. I'm just gonna give some advance warning of it. It feels a strange question to ask for a podcast like that, but what have your topics been lately?
Jordan:
Well, I think a lot of the time, what tends to happen with Sad Boyz is we go in and we have a certain intention of something we might talk about, and then we get very, very excited about some Dragon Ball Z lore, or we get really invested in Magic: The Gathering.
Jarvis:
Recent topics include coping strategies around ADHD and the fact that Elon Musk has been pretending to play his Path of Exile 2 account.
Jordan:
(wheezes)
Jarvis:
So those are the... That's kind of... Those are the two extremes that we found.
Tom:
Allegedly, just to be clear. Allegedly.
Jarvis:
Allegedly, allegedly. Those are the two extremes that we bounce between.
Jordan:
No, it's like, you know, if someone's listening, and they really like Elon Musk, me too.
Tom:
(laughs heartily)
Jordan:
And if someone's listening, and they're not insane, then yes, he is bad.
Tom:
Hopefully you will still be sane by the end of this podcast.
Welcome to the Sideways. Good luck to all three of you. And there is only one Mind Flayer on this podcast, and that is the question editor. So let me invite you to step through the curiosity door towards question one.
This question has been sent in by Nate.
In 2004, the libertarian magazine Reason had 40,000 subscribers. Their June issue covered concerns about large data collection services and their effects on privacy. In what brilliant, but chilling way did the cover image demonstrate this?
I'll say that again.
In 2004, the libertarian magazine Reason had 40,000 subscribers. Their June issue covered concerns about large data collection services and their effects on privacy. In what brilliant, but chilling way did the cover image demonstrate this?
Mary:
Was it something voyeuristic like... peering through a window? I don't know.
Jordan:
Was it 2004?
Tom:
2004, yes.
Jordan:
Ooh, a spicy time for the paparazzi.
Tom:
(laughs)
Jarvis:
So... I think that the spook in my mind would have to be, what is some information that Reason has about its audience that... that it can expose? And so my first thought was a map with little points on the map where all of their subscribers are located.
Mary:
Would that be chilling?
Jarvis:
Right.
Mary:
So is it chilling— It's chilling to the audience, because the audience are there being like, "Oh my god, they know something about me."
Jarvis:
Mhm.
Jordan:
I'm wondering, is this a— Was this as much of a concern in 2004? But going on instinct, is it... your web history will be leaked?
Tom:
Ooh. (wheezes)
Jarvis:
Ooh.
Jordan:
Because I don't think people were being that prolifically creepy online compared to now at the time. But I also think if you were relatively proactive on what was kind of the internet, and then somebody was like, "Oh no, you know that thing you searched, and we don't know where the private browser is yet, because it's the past?"
Mary:
I definitely got caught by my parents looking at things I should not have been looking at, age 14, I think, 2004.
Tom:
(chortles)
Jarvis:
To back up, it is a libertarian magazine, and this is... in the Patriot Act America.
Tom:
Oh yeah.
Jarvis:
Post-9/11. So there is a lot of "the government is spying on you" type stuff that could be out there.
Jordan:
Also Batman Begins.
Jarvis:
So it could not be like— Yeah, true, also Lost. Lost did premiere in 2004.
Tom:
Is Batman Begins the one where he turns the entire cell phone network into a spy device, or is that one of the later ones?
Jordan:
I believe that's Dark Knight, and the ethical debate they have is, "Should I have done that? Yeah."
SFX:
(group laughing)
Tom:
Yeah, basically!
Jordan:
Yeah, I should have actually, for— because of the Joker.
Mary:
What was everyone doing in 2004 on the internet? I was on MySpace thinking I was going to get signed. So I was like, already, I feel grateful for this now. I was kind of trying to be professional on my MySpace and Bebo pages as a singer-songwriter in the south of England.
Tom:
Mhm.
Mary:
In a very small town.
Jordan:
My crazy ass was on Bebo making a Matrix fan page.
Tom:
(laughs)
Jordan:
For The Matrix Reloaded, the only one I'd seen.
Tom:
You've actually hit most of the main points between you, but there's kind of a bit of this you haven't got. Jarvis, you were right with subscriber data. That's what they had. And Jordan... you're right that this is something that people would freak out about much less 20 years later.
Mary:
Is it like money, finances, like sharing your credit card details on the internet somehow? Because people were scared of that, weren't they? And now we have every— We buy everything online.
Tom:
I'd go further with Jarvis's maps idea.
Mary:
Oh, okay, okay.
Jordan:
Oh, oh, I'm thinking, okay. What's... Shock journalism? What's a topic that really catches people? It's something about family security. You, the... Your kids' school will be leaked or your office address.
Tom:
This is a cover image. And it used highly advanced printing technology for the era.
Jordan:
Is it glow in the dark?
Tom:
(laughs heartily) I'm pretty sure that's older than 2004, but...
Jordan:
That would be chilling.
Tom:
You just get the magazine, and it looks perfectly innocent. And then you turn the light off, and it just glows something creepy—
Jordan:
A ghost!
Jarvis:
This is maybe off. Maybe this is off... the direction that we're going, but... When I was in middle school, we had a yearbook cover that was photos of all— It was all of our class photos as a collage, colored such that it would pixelate an image. You know, that it would create an image, like when you're zoomed out. So I'm wondering... It's like obviously, they don't have photographs of all of their subscribers.
Tom:
They don't, but they do have access to something, in 2004, that was a lot less well known. Right now, this would not freak anyone out. But then, it was surprising.
Mary:
I'm playing on Jarvis. I'm just speaking out loud. It's a map, and... What do we use now? We use maps as directions, which we are fine with, and we tell people where we are and where we're going.
Tom:
A map wouldn't quite be creepy enough.
Jarvis:
What— Oh yeah, a map would—
Mary:
Street View or something? Like Street View of your house?
Tom:
Yeah, pretty much. It's not Street View. That's a little too early, but...
Jarvis:
Okay, so it's not a map, but it's not Street View. What is something in between?
Tom:
It's literally the thing in between.
Jarvis:
Satellite view?
Tom:
Yeah!
Jordan:
Oh!
Jarvis:
So is it the satellite view of the region that you're in? Because they have the regional data?
Tom:
Creepier than that, Jarvis.
Jarvis:
Oh, so they went— They— Wait, okay, so, did they print out a satellite view of every individual's house?
Tom:
Yes.
Jarvis:
On 40,000 houses?
Tom:
Yes.
Jarvis:
That— I just didn't think that— That's so custom for 40,000 individual prints.
Tom:
Highly advanced printing technology for the time.
Jarvis:
Yeah, wow.
Mary:
Wow.
Tom:
They sent out 40,000 different covers of magazines. The front said the subscriber's name, "They know where you are," and a custom photo of your house from above.
Jordan:
Oh, what they mean is, "I know where you are."
Jarvis:
Yes.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Tom:
But you gotta remember, in 2004...
Jordan:
Yeah.
Tom:
That wasn't well known.
Jarvis:
Right. Well, you raise a good point, because I don't know what it's like in the UK, but we had phone books that were distributed locally.
Tom:
Yeah.
Jarvis:
That was just everyone in town.
Tom:
Right?
Jarvis:
Here's their name and address or whatever. Their phone number.
Jordan:
I was— I once complained to— I'm from Gloucestershire, and it felt like... that was a small enough environment where the Yellow Pages should be able to summarise everything I need. And I remember calling into... because I was so near to the... Stroud News & Journal, I think it was.
Jarvis:
You just wanted to find the nearest hill that you could cheese roll off. Is that correct?
SFX:
(Tom and Jordan laugh)
Jordan:
That's just transit.
SFX:
(Jarvis and Mary laugh)
Jordan:
The West Country has this weird expectation that everything is so local, despite its scale and despite the fact that people don't move. So, I remember going into the Stroud News & Journal and saying... Well, at the time, I was like, you know, we've got a bit of an issue with my Yellow Pages. My friend Callum's not in here.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Jordan:
I wanted my child friend, my 6-year-old friend, to also just be in the Yellow Pages, in case a stranger has to call him.
Tom:
Yep.
Jordan:
On his landline.
Mary:
Oh my goodness.
Tom:
Yeah.
Mary:
It must have been very expensive for them to do that kind of printing back then. Individualised.
Tom:
Yes, it absolutely was. 40,000 individualised covers of magazines, sent out.
Jordan:
Do they mean Big Government knows where? Is that the...
Jarvis:
Well, 'cause what they've— I think that might be what they're trying to communicate, but what they've illustrated is that... our magazine knows where you live.
Tom:
Yeah.
Jordan:
Big Libertarian.
Jarvis:
Yeah, which is kind of required for the service.
Tom:
So yes, Reason magazine combined their subscriber database and a set of satellite images to try and prove to their audience that they know where you are.
Each of our guests has brought a question with them. I don't know the question. I definitely don't know the answers. We're gonna start with Jarvis.
Jarvis:
This question has been sent in by Simon B.
In 2024, online retailers experienced a huge sales boost of a massage gun that people applied to their index finger. How was this caused by a cartoon hamster?
Tom:
(wheezes)
Jarvis:
Reading that again.
In 2024, online retailers experienced a huge sales boost of a massage gun that people aimed at their index finger. How was this caused by a cartoon hamster?
Jordan:
This is a trick, right? This one's a— This is a trick. What could—
Jarvis:
Not a trick.
Jordan:
(snickers)
Tom:
I mean, they're all tricks on this show, to be honest.
Jarvis:
True.
Jordan:
Index finger... caused by cartoon hamster.
Jarvis:
The hamster has your location.
Jordan:
Oh!
SFX:
(group laughing)
Jarvis:
Mary, are you familiar with any cartoon hamsters? I'm struggling to think of a contemporary cartoon.
Jordan:
I will say that this is not a cartoon hamster that you'll know.
Mary:
No, I was just thinking of, who was the aardvark we used to watch?
Tom:
Otis.
Mary:
Otis.
Tom:
Otis the Aardvark.
Mary:
Otis the Aardvark. (laughs over words)
Tom:
That's a reference that's lost on Jarvis.
Jarvis:
Yeah, no, I was like, I know an anteater named Arthur, and that's about it.
SFX:
(others laughing)
Tom:
Ah, they were probably cousins.
Jarvis:
Yeah.
Jordan:
Yeah. Let's talk Blue Peter. (chortles) While we're on the topic.
Tom:
I'm just making hand gestures. How do you apply a massage gun to one finger? The things are big! Unless it's some kind of... special... Temu/AliExpress tiny little individual massage gun.
Jordan:
With one of those really long titles with every tag in it.
Tom:
Yes.
Jordan:
Massage Gun Index Finger Party Solo Groups.
Tom:
Yep.
Jarvis:
Yeah.
Tom:
Hamster Hamster Gerbil, yeah.
Jordan:
Cartoon. What would you— What is the— What is the equivalent of carpal tunnel? Is that maybe what it's— What could an in—
Mary:
All I'm thinking is musical instrument. That's what you'd— It would— I could kind of do with one, you know, after you've played guitar for a while.
Jordan:
Yeah, when your index gets kind of twisted.
Mary:
But how does that do— How does that have— had anything to do with a hamster?
Jordan:
The very talented hamster.
Mary:
Or even the advertising crew being like, "We need... What we need right now is a hamster."
Jordan:
Is that possibly what it is? Cartoon mascot hamster? That's maybe the— for the ad? Like the GEICO lizard?
Mary:
(cracks up)
Jordan:
Or Juan Sheet for Plenty.
Mary:
(wheezes)
Tom:
Maybe the cartoon hamster somehow encouraged people to injure their fingers, or...
Mary:
Oh, 'cause it nibbled their fingers or something.
Jarvis:
Tom, I would say that in a lateral way, that is...
Tom:
Okay.
Jarvis:
That is... could be true.
Tom:
You don't actually want to use a massage gun on your finger, I think. I know there's a workplace injury called vibration white finger. Like the folks who work with jackhammers, pneumatic drills, things like that.
Jordan:
Whoa.
Tom:
For long periods of time. You can start having all sorts of circulation troubles. So I'm not entirely certain this is an actually healthy thing to do.
Jordan:
That was so immediately, when you mentioned that, I'm like, wow, I've never heard of it. And then you said manual labor. I'm like, okay, I've never heard it. Yeah, of course.
SFX:
(guys laugh heartily)
Jordan:
There might be a typing-based disease.
Jarvis:
Jordan's like, "I have princely fair fingers. These haven't touched a..."
Jordan:
Simply for the ivories.
Tom:
Princely Fair Fingers incidentally plays for the— No, sorry.
SFX:
(Jordan and Jarvis laugh)
Tom:
I can never be bothered to finish that joke. I start off with the, it's a name joke. Then I just peter out. It's not worth it.
Jordan:
Too many options.
Tom:
Peter Out also plays for— no.
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Jarvis:
He's a baseball— is American baseball player, yeah.
Jordan:
Can I ask for a hint? Is that allowed?
Jarvis:
Well, I'll get— I'm gonna give you a small bit of direction. Where are people using their index fingers these days in 2024? So this is a, we're in 2025 now, but this was just last year.
Tom:
Scrolling.
Mary:
On the phone.
Tom:
This has to be scrolling.
Jordan:
It would, or tablets.
Mary:
Scrolling.
Jordan:
Because I'm so thumb-oriented on my phone, I'm wondering— Oh, well, supporting the phone, actually. I get a little bit of cramping from just holding the phone in place with my index finger.
Jarvis:
Interacting with a device.
Jordan:
Okay.
Tom:
So it's some sort of thing where you have to just tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap a lot, and it's starting to...
Jordan:
A mouse?
Mary:
Wasn't there that app where you had to hold your finger down for five days to win? Wasn't it a MrBeast app?
Tom:
Oh! Yes, there was.
Jarvis:
Interesting.
Jordan:
Beastly finger.
Mary:
It's not anything to do with fingerprint... identity, no.
Jordan:
It was— Ooh, did removing your finger— We're back on libertarian mindset, but removing your fingerprints first.
Tom:
I did once try to remove my fingerprints, and it didn't work.
Mary:
Oh, blimey!
Tom:
(chuckles)
SFX:
(Mary and Jordan laugh)
Mary:
What were you running away from, Tom? What had you done?
Tom:
(laughs) You know what? I'm going to refuse to elaborate on that. That is not worth telling that story right now.
Mary:
(wheezes)
Jarvis:
Being familiar with Tom's content, I'm just not surprised.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Jarvis:
You know what I mean?
Mary:
Okay. An app. Doomscrolling. Identity, fingerprints.
Jarvis:
A massage gun for my doomscrolling is a funny concept. (laughs)
Jordan:
And then a hamster. I'm almost kind of... couching the hamster. Because I just don't— I do not know how I can integrate that.
Tom:
Maybe it's the mascot of the app or something like that.
Jordan:
Yeah.
Jarvis:
Maybe.
Jordan:
Little Ham.
Tom:
So what is the hamster encouraging you to do? Tickle the hamster? Poke the hamster? Click on the hamster?
Jordan:
Oh, yeah, we were all playing tickle the hamster. I always forget.
SFX:
(Tom and Mary laugh)
Mary:
Oh yeah, you remember that app?
Jordan:
"Can you tickle me?"
Mary:
Wow, a massage gun. Do you know what? The other day I did see a viral video where someone was... put their drum kit next to a metal door, and then was using the massage gun on the metal door and making the most heavy sound ever. And I was like, I need a massage gun. I've never needed one before for massaging. I just want it for sound effect.
Tom:
What if the massage gun isn't for healing? It's not to make the finger better. It is to make the finger vibrate or to make the finger tap a lot on a thing.
Jarvis:
So I think you should combine that with... Kind of, you guys have been on the right track. We've talked about mobile devices. We've talked about tapping. And now you've talked about using the massage gun to...
Mary:
Make music.
Jarvis:
Make music. But also most recently, Tom, to make your finger vibrate.
Jordan:
Is it people wanting to... rapidly like every Tinder match?
Mary:
(gasps)
Jarvis:
That is such a—
Tom:
(laughs softly)
Jarvis:
It's like the wrong answer that fits in the constraints.
Jordan:
I'm just a dog. What can I say? Just one of the boys?
Jarvis:
Yeah, yeah. It does kind of fit.
Jordan:
When you're out on the pool.
Tom:
(laughs)
Jordan:
What else could you need to tap really rapidly?
Jarvis:
So actually the thing that we're missing is... What did they gain from...
Mary:
They won a hamster.
Jarvis:
What is something in 2024 that has changed economically in terms of the economic options that exist for purchasing power?
Jordan:
Is it NFT or crypto adjacent?
Jarvis:
Yes, it is.
Jordan:
Okay.
Tom:
Oh wow, okay.
Jordan:
Is there a mechanism of crypto mining related to tap? That would be new to me, I guess.
Jarvis:
Well... you're right on the money. Because there's oftentimes many gamified ways to mine crypto.
Tom:
Oh no. Every time you tapped the hamster, it gave you some cryptocurrency.
Jarvis:
Basically yes.
Tom:
(groans)
Jordan:
Oh, wow. Every time you tickled it.
Tom:
It's hamster tickle coin.
Jordan:
The hamster— (laughs)
Jarvis:
It is called Hamster Kombat. And it was a...
SFX:
(Tom and Jordan laugh)
Jarvis:
viral, allegedly... news to me, viral 2024 computer game that had in-game scoring backed by cryptocurrency.
Tom:
Oh no.
Jarvis:
Players simply had to jab at the screen repeatedly to collect coins.
Jordan:
Terrifying.
Jarvis:
Applying the massager to one's index finger allowed players to tap their mobile screen much faster than they could normally. The online retailer Wildberries reported a 179% increase in sales for percussion massagers. Percussion, like the door. Some retailers even emblazoned the game's logo on adverts for the massagers.
That's wild. Anything to sell, I guess.
SFX:
(Tom and Mary chuckle)
Jarvis:
In the end... and you could have guessed this, but in the end, even the top players who'd been racking up their scores for months only earned a few hundred dollars out of the game.
Jordan:
Well, covers the cost of the massage gun.
Tom:
And the physical therapy afterwards.
SFX:
(guests snickering)
Jordan:
"No honey, it's for cryptocurrency."
SFX:
(Tom and Mary laugh)
Tom:
Thank you to Em Andress for sending in this next question.
In August 2000, television viewers complained to CBS Sports that they weren't always being fed live audio from the PGA Championship in Kentucky. No major technical mistakes were made, so what gave away the TV producers' deception?
I'll give you that one more time.
In August 2000, television viewers complained to CBS Sports that they weren't always being fed live audio from the PGA Championship in Kentucky. No major technical mistakes were made, so what gave away the TV producers' deception?
Jordan:
Was the commentary wrong? "It's a hole in one!" that they just missed completely.
Mary:
Were the players boycotting it somehow? Like trying to hide what they were saying? Hmm.
Jarvis:
Was there some sort of natural disaster or event that interfered? That people would know, obviously should be affecting the sport?
Tom:
Of those three initial guesses, Jarvis is closest. In the right vague, vague ballpark.
Jarvis:
Mm.
Jordan:
They were playing baseball.
SFX:
(Tom and Mary laugh)
Jordan:
This is, I don't think this is a lie.
Tom:
The video was fine.
Jordan:
Ooh.
Tom:
The audio had—
Jordan:
Was Tiger Woods not playing, but he was— was he in trouble and—
Jarvis:
Oh!
Jordan:
But was in the game?
Jarvis:
What year was it?
Tom:
2000.
Jarvis:
That was a Tiger Wood— I don't know if that was the Tiger Woods controversy year, but...
Mary:
I think that was a bit too early, wasn't it, or...
Jarvis:
Could be too early.
Mary:
So the audio was incorrect. Natural disaster, wind, weather.
Tom:
Natural disaster's not right, but of the things though, Jarvis is closer.
Jarvis:
Right, there's something happening in the world. So I think maybe the Tiger Woods angle doesn't feel that different, where something is incongruous, like our state of the world, like the state of the world that the public has, has updated, and the audio has not.
And that's my imagination of why we're seeing a dissonance between these two things. I was like, there's someone on commentary who had some sort of issue and couldn't possibly be there.
Jordan:
Earthquake? Oh no, that would definitely be a desertion.
Tom:
The vast majority of people wouldn't have noticed this.
Jordan:
Mm.
Jarvis:
Mm.
Jordan:
But the pedantic enough to write in to CBS people.
Tom:
Absolutely.
Jordan:
Yeah.
Tom:
And it's 2000, so they would probably have written in.
Jordan:
Seasonal? Anything to do with the outdoors? Is there something just incongruous with the season?
Tom:
Yeah. Not with the season, but something's incongruous. Have a think about the TV coverage on golf. What happens between, you know, the different shots of the golfers?
Mary:
Some aerial footage of the golf course.
Tom:
Yeah, there'll be establishing shots.
Mary:
So audio while they're... on an aerial shot is... But most people wouldn't notice it, so it can't be too controversial.
Jordan:
The competitors aren't mic'd, right? So if—
Tom:
No, but there are a lot of mics around the course.
Jordan:
Yeah.
Jarvis:
I was gonna say. Is this audio of the environment or audio of the on-mic talent?
Tom:
Audio of the environment. That's a key point there, Jarvis.
Jordan:
A tiger.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Jordan:
The sound of a tiger.
Mary:
Some wildlife problem.
Jarvis:
So something, yeah, there's gotta be something that doesn't sync up, right? Something in the aerial shot that's not present in the audio or vice versa.
Tom:
Not necessarily. I'd stick with wildlife. It's not a tiger. There's not suddenly a tiger appearing in the audio. But if you are a keen viewer, and you know certain things, you might spot that the TV producers are lying to you.
Jordan:
Oh wow.
Mary:
Was it birds or something? What else would be in a golf course? Birds?
Tom:
Keep going, Mary.
Jordan:
They were sucked into the rotor of the helicopter.
Tom:
Oh, no! Oh, no!
SFX:
(Jarvis and Mary laugh)
Jordan:
I think there's a Sully-style situation.
Tom:
You don't hear the helicopter during the big aerial shots. You don't hear from the mics that are way up on the towers.
Mary:
Right, so if you don't have— So you've got the mics on the ground somewhere. You're hearing the environment. They're birds, wildlife of the said location. But you've got the aerial shots from the helicopter.
Tom:
Are you?
Jordan:
Is it the wrong an— Is it the wrong sounds for the birds locally?
Tom:
It's the wrong birds. You're absolutely right, Jordan. It's the wrong birds.
Mary:
Wrong birds. Damn, that was good.
Jordan:
Well, that truly is... I think if I received that feedback from an audience member, I would be like, "That's okay, don't watch."
Tom:
Yep.
Jordan:
Go away forever.
Jarvis:
Were— I wonder. 'Cause birdwatching, was it more pop— We had less things to do in 2000. Social media hadn't rotted our brains.
Jordan:
We didn't have any hamsters to tickle. I suppose I'll get into avian watching.
Tom:
Yep, CBS filled the gaps in the commentary and the action with ambient sounds and footage of the area. But sometimes the ambience was pre-taped, and a few people complained that the call of a white-throated sparrow was audible, which is not native to Kentucky.
Jarvis:
You're supposed to be birdie watching, not bird watching.
Tom:
Eyyy!
Jordan:
But their complaint was that they thought it wasn't live? The whole broadcast as a result? Or just they were like, this is inauthentic?
Tom:
This is inaccurate. What else are you lying to us about?
Jordan:
Right.
Tom:
If this is faked, what else is?
Jarvis:
It's not that they want to smooth out the broadcast because there's gonna be lots of dead air, otherwise.
Tom:
The vice president of CBS Sports said they tried to use local bird song where possible. They did have a tactic for trying to get that.
Jordan:
Lav mics on the birds.
Tom:
CBS put a microphone down and put something next to it.
Jarvis:
Oh, like some bread? Bird seed?
Tom:
Yeah, bird seed. They just seed put some bird seed down next to a microphone to try and get some local bird song. When they couldn't get that—
Jordan:
They were paid for their work.
Mary:
They were too busy eating. They wouldn't be singing right there.
Jordan:
Yeah, the bird sounds are just chomping.
Mary:
Nom, nom, nom.
Jordan:
That's the chomping of the white-bellied plum feather.
SFX:
(Tom and Mary giggle)
Tom:
Yes, the producers of that year's PGA Championship footage had used taped bird calls for the wrong bird. Mary, it is your question. Over to you.
Mary:
Okay. This question is based on an idea sent in by Daniel Edgardo. What has Lateral got in common with a cow's jaw and an army of ants? What has Lateral got in common with a cow's jaw and an army of ants?
Tom:
This is our very first meta question.
Jarvis:
I was gonna say, this is meta.
Jordan:
Does the formatting of the text confirm that the— Is it in italics to confirm it's the show,
Tom:
(laughs)
Jordan:
or is it possibly...
Tom:
It must be. It must be.
Mary:
This is indeed referring to Lateral, this podcast, yes.
Jarvis:
A cow's jaw? Well, cows chew chud or whatever.
Tom:
Cud, I think, yeah.
Jarvis:
Cud, cud.
Tom:
And they chew... with four stomachs. Well, they don't chew with four stomachs, but they have four stomachs.
Jordan:
Four guests? Is that, is there any possible— Well, it's three guests.
Tom:
Yeah, but an army of ants? Mm, I can't see four making an army of ants.
Jarvis:
This is very silly, but it's like an army, as in, the audience is working together as a hive mind. And we are supposed to chew on the riddles that they give us. Like a cow does.
Tom:
Lateral has four players. A cow has four stomachs. An army of ants has... many ants.
Jarvis:
Oh, and they have a queen, right? Or a...
Mary:
Every podcast has... Well, not every podcast, but most podcasts have something that sort of unites them as a... I'm hoping I'm not giving too much away here.
Tom:
Yeah, you're absolutely not.
Mary:
And I guess it's sort of... I am... I'm into sound. And a podcast is audio.
Tom:
Hmm.
Mary:
I'm just thinking— I'm saying which part of the podcast to focus on.
Jordan:
Is it tied to microphones?
Mary:
What has Lateral got in common with a cow's jaw... and an army of ants? So maybe... a combination of those two things?
Tom:
We all chew on things. But that's not specifically a cow's jaw. But Lateral chews on and digests questions metaphorically? A cow's jaw will chew on something, and an army of ants will... I mean, if they're particularly vicious ants, they will chew at things, but I, mm, I'm not convinced about that. I started so well on that, and then the metaphor got away from me.
Jarvis:
Yeah, I mean, I had the chewing idea as well, but... they work toward a common goal.
Mary:
I'll give you the clues I'm definitely allowed to give. The cow's jaw still has the teeth in it.
Tom:
Does it have the rest of the cow attached?
Mary:
No.
Jordan:
Oh, what happened?
Mary:
So a jaw, and then what happens to the jaw if you introduce a load of ants?
Jordan:
Oh? Did they... Did they create a hive inside the... It's kind of a horrific image.
Mary:
It is quite gruesome what the ants do to the jaw.
Tom:
Oh?
Jordan:
I feel like ants don't have a lot of hobbies. Their main thing is picking up a thing they found and taking it home.
Tom:
Or nesting inside it. Do ants hollow out cow bones and nest inside them?
Jordan:
Like the podcast.
Tom:
Mm yeah, got away from me a little.
Mary:
Well, there is a process that happens when ants... Maybe they're not very nice ants. They're not very nice ants. Well, they're hungry ants. They're hungry ants, basically.
Jarvis:
Right.
Jordan:
Do they eat enamel? Are they eating teeth?
Mary:
Flesh?
Jordan:
Gums?
Jarvis:
Do they make the jaw move?
Mary:
The jaw doesn't move by itself.
Jarvis:
Right, but do the— something that ants do cause the jaw to...
Jordan:
Do they comedically puppet it?
Tom:
(laughs)
Jarvis:
Yeah.
Mary:
The ants have a job of eating the flesh.
Jarvis:
Right.
Mary:
And then... there's something sonic about this.
Tom:
Sonic?
Mary:
But not necessarily done by the ants.
Tom:
I mean, it sounds like there's an instrument made out of a cow's jaw, but I don't know what that instrument could be.
Mary:
You are very much along the right lines. And it has something to do with Lateral.
Jordan:
Is it a wind instrument?
Mary:
No, it's not a wind instrument. I guess you could say it is like a percussive...
Tom:
Does our theme tune have that instrument in it or something like that?
Mary:
Yes.
Jordan:
Whoa.
Tom:
Really?
Jarvis:
Wow.
Mary:
Yes. In the theme tune for Lateral, you can hear a distinctive rattle sound.
Tom:
The— I thought that was one of those vibraslap things that—
Mary:
It's a vibraslap, but... I think I can reveal this right now.
So the jawbone is a rattle that you can hear in Lateral's theme. And then, the vibraslap was developed from a traditional Latin American instrument called the quijada. And this was made by taking the jaw of a donkey, horse, or cow, and putting it into a bowl of ants. The ants remove all the flesh, leaving only the teeth and jawbone.
And when the bone is struck, the teeth make a distinctive rattling sound.
Tom:
Oh my god!
Mary:
And quijada literally means jaw in Spanish.
Jordan:
Kudos to the creator of that instrument because everyone thought they were crazy.
Mary:
So if you don't know what a vibraslap sounds like, this is how it sounds.
SFX:
♫ (stinger excerpt with isolated vibraslap)
Jordan:
Tom, does that change your relationship to the theme song of the show at all?
Tom:
I'm assuming it's a synthetic one. I'm assuming that whoever put that song together just hit a vibraslap or grabbed a sample rather than an artisanal original cow bone eaten by ants.
Jordan:
Yeah, they could use a VST, but they chose to get the real one.
Mary:
A lot of musical instruments had kind of gruesome beginnings. Like I play the viola, but obviously, the Baroque viola had gut strings, and it was genuine gut.
Jarvis:
Oh yeah.
Mary:
And then you go along those lines, and there are other, you know... Snare— oh, well, not— Drums with obviously—
Jarvis:
Sinew and stuff is used as... Yeah, hides and...
Mary:
A lot of animals have contributed to music.
Tom:
Not willingly.
Mary:
Not willingly, no.
Tom:
This question's been sent in by Sami.
In 2017, a user of the operating system Unix found that if you use the command for a 'manual' page at 00:30 hours, the system would reply with three identical words. What were they?
I'll say that again.
In 2017, a user of the operating system Unix found that if you use the command for a 'manual' page at 00:30 hours, the system would reply with three identical words. What were they?
Jordan:
Deferring to Jarvis on this one.
Tom:
Yeah, Jarvis, you— I remember meeting you at the point where you just kind of transitioned out of doing computer stuff.
Jarvis:
I know, but I don't know. I mean, I can provide a little bit of context here. This is 2017.
Tom:
Mhm.
Jarvis:
And then what was the time?
Tom:
00:30 hours.
Jarvis:
So that's midnight-30. Is that right? In normal time.
Jordan:
In foreign.
SFX:
(group chuckling)
Jarvis:
And then the other thing I can provide is that... a manual page in Unix, the command is 'man'. So you'd be typing in M-A-N, space, and then the name— you'd be looking up the manual page for a program.
And a lot of times... developers will put Easter eggs and fun little things into man pages or whatever. And I'm wondering what sort of program would say the same thing three times.
And my guess would be it's a pun... that— it completes a word. So if it was like, "man" something like "man o' war" or "man", you know, I don't know. That would cause it a triple.
Jordan:
That's a good instinct. My default was that it would be, you know... And this assumption's only also based on tech time would be it's a pop culture reference. That was the other thing that jumped into my head.
Tom:
You've got most of it. And Jarvis, just for context, when you say type in... what are you seeing on your screen?
Jarvis:
Oh yeah, so, so, okay. So you're opening up a terminal. So imagine a black box with a blinking cursor that's waiting for you to type in a command. And then you can type in things like... you know, list the directories in the folder that you're looking at and things like that. You can also type in to start a program. If I type in 'chrome' on my... More or less, if I type in 'chrome' on my thing, it'll open up my Google Chrome. 'Cause certain programs have a command line.
Tom:
Yep, you've got all the important parts of this.
Jarvis:
Yeah.
Tom:
Jarvis, you've identified the program. Between you, you figured out that there's something weird about how I'm saying the time. And Jordan, you've got that it's a pop culture reference.
Mary:
So I'm lacking right now.
Tom:
Well...
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Jordan:
Is it 2017 era pop culture reference?
Tom:
Why do you think that, Jordan?
Jordan:
No particular, just, I'm wondering if the date is...
Jarvis:
Well, why would the year be provided?
Jordan:
I guess it's— It can't be after 2017, but...
Tom:
That's true.
Jordan:
There's a bunch of culture from before 2017. There's like 10 years.
Tom:
There is, and I think this is the bit that Mary might be able to fill in.
Mary:
Oh dear. So something musical?
Tom:
Hmm.
Mary:
Måneskin. I'm trying... I'm trying to think of 'man' reference. Is 'man' one of the things? Is it— Can we confirm that, or is that still part—
Tom:
Yeah, 'man' is the correct command, yes.
Mary:
Man is correct. So man music.
Tom:
What time was that again?
Jarvis:
00:30 hours?
Tom:
Mhm.
Jarvis:
Is there a song that just says the... says the same word three... Like "ring, ring, ring" or "Hello, hello, hello"? I'm imagining what would be in a song.
Tom:
Yeah, you've got all the constituent parts of this, and you're gonna kick yourself when it actually lands.
Mary:
Oh my goodness. No, okay. So it's a popular song with a repeating... Jarvis, do you know? You had a cheeky look on your face when you—
Jarvis:
I don't know. No, no, no. I dunno. I dunno.
SFX:
(others laughing)
Tom:
"Ring Ring" is actually a song by the same band.
Jordan:
Oh, "Sleigh Bells"?
Jarvis:
"30 Minutes After Midnight". Something, hmm. Something after midnight.
Tom:
Yep! At some point, the penny is gonna drop, and I do not wanna spoil that for you.
Jarvis:
Aaagh!
Mary:
Why do I feel like it's Linkin Park or something? Midnight, minutes midn...
Jarvis:
Minutes After Midnight is a— Minute— Isn't that a Linkin Park album?
Tom:
If you just say the command and time a few times, it might land.
Mary:
Man midnight. Man.
Jarvis:
Man. Man on the moon. Man after midnight.
Tom:
What was that, Jarvis?
Jarvis:
I said, man after midnight, man on the moon, man...
Tom:
Man after midnight. Does that ring any bells for anyone?
Mary:
Oh, is it— It's not Elton John.
Tom:
It's not, but that scale of artist. They're Swedish.
Jordan:
Oh, it's ABBA?
Mary:
Wait, oh my god, Mary.
Tom:
(cackles)
Mary:
I'm letting myself down. I'm letting my whole everyone down.
SFX:
(Jarvis and Mary laugh)
Mary:
♪ I need a man after midnight ♪
Tom:
Yeah, what's the— It's the bit just before there. You've got the song.
Jordan:
Is it "Gimme Gimme Gimme"?
Mary:
Gimme, gimme, gimme a man after midnight.
Tom:
Yes!
Mary:
Oh my god, Mary.
Tom:
Yes, if you type the command 'man' into certain Unix systems at exactly half past midnight, it will send the reply it's meant to, and then it will tack on "gimme gimme gimme".
Mary:
(cackles)
Jarvis:
That's so funny.
Jordan:
I was so locked into "Mamma Mia".
SFX:
(Tom and Jarvis laugh)
Jordan:
Mama man.
Mary:
I could not... Give me a man.
Tom:
It's an infuriating thing because you've got "man after midnight", but then you have to move your brain backwards in the song, and that's almost impossible to do.
Jarvis:
Without knowing the song, I did the best I could.
Tom:
(laughs)
Jarvis:
I was like, I understand the structure of a riddle. You know?
Jordan:
That was good. That's like an Ocean's Eleven, where we need the safe cracker. We need the acrobat.
Jarvis:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's me, that's me. You guys have to make sense of this. I don't know.
Jordan:
With the guy behind the chair.
Tom:
This Easter egg was found when someone's system started breaking because of it. Because they ran a test at half past midnight, and it caused a problem. And then they had to just kind of pare the Easter egg down a bit. So it only happens if you actually just type in 'man'. Jordan, your question. Whenever you're ready.
Jordan:
This question has been sent in by Nate.
Eric Radomski was the co-creator and lead artist of 1992... 1992's Batman: The Animated Series. In what way did he reverse the animation process to achieve the show's signature aesthetic?
One more time.
Eric Radomski was the co-creator and lead artist of 1992's Batman: The Animated Series. In what way did he reverse the animation process to achieve the show's signature aesthetic?
Tom:
Despite having never seen the series, this fact is tucked away in the back of my head. So Mary and Jarvis, this one's on you.
Jarvis:
Oh, no! (laughs) We're already down one! I haven't seen the show. I think I've maybe seen the show as a child. Reversing the animation process. What does that mean? Can we unpack that for a second, Mary?
Mary:
I guess so. End result is the animation.
Jarvis:
Animation.
Mary:
And done the old-fashioned way, I assume.
Jarvis:
Mhm.
Mary:
So, images.
Jarvis:
Right, so 1992, the things I know about animation: It's drawn on cels. Sometimes, you know, for very advanced animation, like I think in Snow White, they'll use rotoscoping and stuff, where they trace over real actors and such. I don't know what it is about... I don't know the style of Batman: The Animated Series. I was more of a Batman Beyond guy. (chuckles)
Jordan:
Same, brother, same here.
Mary:
So it's not, so it's maybe it's a bit more sophisticated than a flip book being reversed.
Jordan:
I will say Jarvis, to that point... Batman Beyond has the similarly noir, iconic noir aesthetic as The Animated Series.
Jarvis:
So, reversing the animation process. Is it literally reversing? Like playing something in reverse? What if things were— What if things were animated backwards and played forward to create a choppy effect?
Mary:
Or is there anything to do with the actual filling in of the art, and it being finished? Finished picture to then being the sketch of the picture?
Jordan:
I think you're the— what you've highlighted about the era and the way animation was done, methods that maybe would not apply now, is very appropriate. It— You could do it now, but the era made it... it makes a lot more sense.
Tom:
I'm just checking that I've got the right thing here. When Mary said that... it's more about how the animation cels are made and drawn...
Jordan:
Yes.
Tom:
It's more about that than anything temporal.
Jordan:
Yes, it's exactly that. You could, it is more... art design driven than... production processor, like art, like animation production.
Mary:
So 24 images per second.
Jarvis:
Or I think in animation, there's potentially less.
Tom:
Yeah.
Jarvis:
But... So my first thought was thinking about modern animation, thinking about the Spiderverse movies and how they, to create the comic book aesthetic, they layered additional... They kind of drew on top of the existing cels. And so I'm wondering if there's something like that where they drew something in a traditional fashion and then sketched over it, or made it... Or even took away frame— Oh wait, you said it was in the design and not necessarily the production.
Jordan:
Yeah, I would say you've... you are... right on— nail on the head with the... reversing the method that they would create these individual cels. Less about the cons— the pairing of those cels, but the actual artistic process was a...
Jarvis:
So the things I know about the artistic process that I think I know about them in animation cels, right, is that you have background art. And then you have... the actors, like the actual figures that are moving on top of that. So that you can change out those cels and not change the backgrounds because it would be, you know, expensive to paint or redraw... all these backgrounds.
Jordan:
Think also about what the... the iconic colour palette of Batman is and how he appears in the world.
Mary:
Noir, black and white. I'm thinking Sin City, but old school.
Jordan:
I think Sin City is a good reference point, as far as, it's high contrast and splashes of vibrant colour.
Mary:
Is it red? Black, white, and red being the only colours, or...
Jordan:
No, it's, a lot of vibrant colours, but the predominant theme of Batman is... important to the way these cels were constructed.
Jarvis:
I wanna go back to reversing 'cause is it like, normally you draw something and then you color— I already said this, but one idea of reversing is you draw something and then you color it in, and then another way is you color in first and then you draw afterward.
Jordan:
You're bang on with... how they changed the linear process of making the art.
Jarvis:
Mm.
Jordan:
But the, not quite that.
Tom:
It's more the background, as I remember, Jordan.
Jordan:
It is indeed. This decision made animating daytime scenes more difficult.
Jarvis:
Oh, they ch— Maybe they— Oh, I don't know. Did they use black as the background instead of white as a base?
Jordan:
It was drawn on black paper.
Jarvis:
Wow!
Mary:
Wow, okay.
Jordan:
Which it— and I see that the challenge of, even when I read it the first time, I'm like, it is animation, but it's not the animation.
Jarvis:
Right, right.
Jordan:
That is, that's, yeah, the tricky part. But it, I mean, you can definitely tell. It's very stark high contrast.
Tom:
Yep.
Jordan:
An interesting note also included here was that... they issued the order that all artists use... all artists should have it so that all backgrounds had to be drawn on black paper with bright colours applied on top of them. The opposite of the normal system, and it allows them to have that really gritty feel. The Batman in that universe is almost the absence of the world design, when, in a lot of scenes, he has no detail. He's just a silhouette with eyes.
Jarvis:
Ohhh!
Jordan:
It kind of like Batman Beyond, but without the red.
Mary:
I'm gonna have to watch it later. (wheezes)
Jordan:
It's fab. I mean, there's a very good Batman: The Animated Series movie about Mr. Freeze.
Jarvis:
It's like, he's like, he's like OLED screens, right? It's like the pixels are off.
SFX:
(Tom and Jordan laugh)
Jarvis:
You know what I mean? To get the true black.
Jordan:
Yeah, for the process of creating Batman: The Animated Series, the creative team, instead of drawing on a white background and creating the characters on top of that, they started with a black... with black paper, and then added vibrant colours and basic whites to help bring that alive.
Created an issue with the daytime scenes, because layering white art, brightening a dark background, was more challenging than darkening a white background.
Tom:
Which brings me to the question I asked the audience at the very start of the show.
Los Angeles is sometimes called LA, while Orlando begins with the letters ORL. What does this help you remember?
Does anyone wanna have a quick shot at that before I clue the audience in?
Jordan:
Jarvis is a... something of a Florida man?
Jarvis:
Yeah, so the airport in LA, you know, it's LAX. And then Orlando is ORL, I think.
Tom:
No, Orlando is MCO. Orlando's Executive Jet Airport is ORL, but Orlando Airport is MCO.
Jarvis:
I never fly outta Orlando, so that makes sense.
Tom:
What connects Los Angeles and Orlando?
Jarvis:
Disney.
Tom:
Keep talking.
Jarvis:
There's Disneyland, Disney World. Disneyland in California, Disney World in Orlando.
Tom:
Yep.
Jarvis:
Oh, LA for Land and ORL for World, so...
Tom:
Yes.
Jordan:
Brilliant.
Jarvis:
Like ORL? Yeah, okay.
Tom:
Yep, Los Angeles is LA, and that's in Disneyland. Orlando is ORL, and that is in Disney World.
Jordan:
(snickers)
Tom:
That is how to remember which Disney theme park is where.
Thank you very much to all our players. Let's find out, what's going on in people's lives? Where can they find you?
We will start with Jordan.
Jordan:
youtube.com/sadboyz. We put out an episode every Friday, and we also release a second episode on our Patreon, patreon.com/sadboyz.
Tom:
And that is Sad Boyz with a...
Jordan:
With a Z.
Tom:
And Jarvis.
Jarvis:
I've just received word from Jordan's doctor that I am now 100% of the Sad Boyz podcast, which you can call—
Tom:
(cackles)
Jarvis:
Which you can find on youtube.com/sadboyz posting every week.
Jordan:
It's so unprofessional.
Jarvis:
Hate that this is how you have to find out.
Tom:
And Mary.
Mary:
I'm also a YouTuber. So Mary Spender, just type that in. And also I have a debut album on Spotify now and, well, anywhere you can listen to music. It's called Super. Sexy. Heartbreak.
Jordan:
Woo!
Tom:
And if you wanna know more about this show, you can do that at lateralcast.com, where you can also send in your own ideas for questions. We are at @lateralcast basically everywhere, and there are regular video highlights at youtube.com/lateralcast.
Thank you very much to Mary Spender.
Mary:
Thank you.
Tom:
Jarvis Johnson.
Jarvis:
I'm the only one.
SFX:
(Tom and Mary laugh)
Tom:
Jordan Adika.
Jordan:
Uh, ditto.
Tom:
I've been Tom Scott, and that's been Lateral.
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