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Episode 129: Shooting a finger gun
Published 28th March, 2025
Rowan Ellis, Dan Peake and Alec Watson face questions about street stones, European epithets and Lego logistics.
HOST: Tom Scott. QUESTION PRODUCER: David Bodycombe. EDITED BY: Julie Hassett at The Podcast Studios, Dublin. MUSIC: Karl-Ola Kjellholm ('Private Detective'/'Agrumes', courtesy of epidemicsound.com). ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS: Ólafur Waage, Jared Pike, Mateusz Horbaczewski, Allen, Matan. FORMAT: Pad 26 Limited/Labyrinth Games Ltd. EXECUTIVE PRODUCERS: David Bodycombe and Tom Scott.
Transcription by Caption+
Tom:
In the Spanish media, who does Carlos, Guillermo, and Enrique usually refer to?
The answer to that at the end of the show. My name's Tom Scott, and this is Lateral.
No matter where you are in the world, it's possible to listen to or watch this show on a device that fits into the palm of your hand. "Isn't technology amazing?", says the guy reading these words from a sheet of dead tree.
Hoping to keep up with modern times, first today, we have: from her own YouTube channel and the Queer Movie Podcast, welcome back to the show, Rowan Ellis.
Rowan:
Hell​o! Very happy to be back.
Tom:
It is always a delight to have you on the show.
What are you working on at the minute? 'Cause you said you were doing something a little bit different to usual.
Rowan:
Yeah​, I just happen to be directing a comedy play, by my friend about her hyperfixation on gay Downton Abbey fanfiction. So...
Tom:
Wow!
Rowan:
It's​— By the time this comes out, it will have done its London run, but we're looking to maybe take it to Edinburgh, to the Fringe, so fingers crossed.
Tom:
And how about for your own projects like video essays? What are you working on at the minute?
Rowan:
So I do video essays on my YouTube channel monthly. They are mainly queer and otherwise sort of social justice and sociology and history-focused, as well as doing the Queer Movie Podcast where basically I just get to watch queer movies and then rant about them which is kind of an amazing thing to get to do as a job.
Tom:
Well, very best of luck on the show today.
There are two other returning players joining you, the first of which is professional puzzle editor and Only Connect question writer Dan Peake. Welcome back.
Dan:
Hey, thank you very much for having me.
Tom:
I'm always a little bit intimidated when I introduce someone here who is a professional puzzle and question writer because I just worry that you will know all the facts.
Dan:
I can easily say that's not going to be true.
Tom:
(laughs)
Dan:
The amount of stuff that I learned at one point in time has far eclipsed the amount— by the amount that I have forgotten over the same period of time. If a fact goes in my head, at least two facts come out my head the other side.
Tom:
(laughs)
Dan:
None of it stays in.
Tom:
I said, "professional puzzle editor". What are you writing at the moment?
Dan:
I compile quite a few crosswords, for my day job, but I'm also writing for Only Connect, I've done a bit of work for The 1% Club, so I'm all about lots of lateral thinking stuff, not straight trivia. Somewhere where there's a twist to the question not just a standard question-answer. I write enough of those, but I do like a good twist on those as well.
Tom:
Well, hopefully that will stand you in good stead today.
Our last player today is the host of Technology Connections on YouTube. Welcome back to the show, Alec Watson.
Alec:
Hello​! Thank you for having me back.
Tom:
It is lovely to have you back. You are actually in the studio today. I recognise the background.
Alec:
Yes, well, now that I have an actual office, I wanna take advantage of it.
Tom:
(laughs) A professional mic, professional setup, although the lighting and the televisions behind are not switched on.
Alec:
Yeah,​ the setup is too janky to work with what's happening right now.
Tom:
(laughs) What sort of thing are you working on at the minute? 'Cause the last I saw, you had managed to hack your car charging point somehow.
Alec:
Yeah,​ that was just a— basically a personal project that I turned into a video, but actually that led to what my current next project is gonna be is just explaining power versus energy, because I've seen a lot of people be confused about that and I'm kinda goin' on a more back to basics situation for this year I think, and, that's gonna be my first project like that.
Tom:
I remember seeing a video somewhere on cursed units which said that a lot of European appliances are marked up in kilowatt hours per hour.
Alec:
Ugh.
Tom:
(laughs) Thank you! That is exactly the response I was hoping to get from you there.
Alec:
That'​s the sort of thing I'm hoping to elucidate.
Tom:
Good luck to all three of you on the show today.
Let us progress to the very up-to-the minute question one.
On some mornings, Marianne would wear some old glasses with one of the lenses removed, and then turn them upside down. Why?
I'll say that again.
On some mornings, Marianne would wear some old glasses with one of the lenses removed, and then turn them upside down. Why?
Rowan:
Is this something to do with the bifocal lenses? Like, you—people who have lenses where at the top and the bottom it's a different prescription to be able to look down to read but look up to see far? Potentially? Especially if they were old glasses that she might have—her prescription might have changed and she might be able to switch 'em around somehow.
Dan:
I'm wondering if Marianne has a vendetta against one very specific ant.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Dan:
She's looking for it. She's looking for— Mean, I know. Start the show off with, "I'm going to fry an ant with frying— frying it with the— the sun going through the lens." But that's what you made me think of, Rowan.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Alec:
The first thing that I thought of was when you said, "turn upside down," meaning the lens switched eyes.
Tom:
Yeah, yeah, that's fair.
Rowan:
Mhm,​ yeah.
Alec:
Okay.
Dan:
Oh. Well, why not remove the other lens, then? Why do you remove the certain lens and then turn your glasses upside down? There's got to be a reason for that.
Rowan:
Is it something to do with the... So, like, if I have glasses and I need my prescription in both eyes and if I close one of my eyes, I can obviously still see out of the other one so I don't know if there was something where they needed their glasses to see in order to take out the other lens.
Like, they needed to be able to s— Is that— Does that even make any sense?
Dan:
It does.
Tom:
It does, and it's kind of in the right direction.
Alec:
Somet​hing in my mind is thinking about the whole legend of – or myth, whatever you want to call it – about eye patches for pirates and—
Tom:
Do you want to explain that one? Because everyone in the call went, "Oh, yeah, I know that," but not all of our audience will.
That is exactly the kind of nerd fact that between... between my long ago history with pirates, our general trivia knowledge, and I suspect Rowan's knowledge of Our Flag Means Death, everyone has heard the—
Rowan:
You'​re so close, Tom. It's actually my knowledge of the best TV show ever to air, Black Sails.
Tom:
Apolog​ies. I got the wrong pirate show.
Rowan:
But you are so— honestly, that was a read.
Tom:
(laughs heartily)
Rowan:
I feel very seen.
Alec:
Yeah,​ so supposedly one of the reasons that pirates wore eyepatches was so that one of their eyes was always adjusted to the dark for when they went below deck.
And... so I was thinking, "Is this something to do with that?" Or perhaps maybe exercising the lenses in your eyes to... try and correct your vision?
Tom:
It's not eye exercise, but you're all kind of in the right area here. The frame around the absent lens was also removed.
Alec:
So it was a monocle.
Tom:
It was a monocle with an extra bar over the other side so it's still on both ears.
Rowan:
But hang on. If they... I've been in my head going upside down.
Tom:
Mhm.
Rowan:
But then— then it wouldn't be. It would be just, I guess, propped on the top of your ears. Like, the bits that curve around your ears, would—
Tom:
Yeah.
Rowan:
Woul​d they just be sticking up?
Tom:
Yes, they would.
Rowan:
You said that like, "Yeah, Rowan, obviously." They would just be sticking up.
SFX:
(Tom and Dan laugh heartily)
Rowan:
Like​, "Yeah, that's a normal way to wear glasses, actually, Rowan."
Tom:
If you know the answer, then yes, it does— it does seem obvious. Apologies.
Alec:
Is this person just hanging upside down sometimes?
Dan:
Ooh!
Tom:
If that was the case you'd probably still want your glasses the right way up on your face relative to you.
Alec:
Yeah,​ that's true.
Tom:
So just to make sure you know what's going on here, the lens is gone. The bottom half of that frame is gone so you've just got the connecting bar at the top and then the whole set of glasses – not immediately – but the whole set of glasses gets turned upside down at one point.
Dan:
I don't know the purpose of these glasses yet. Is it— obviously to look through 'cause that is the point of glasses, but is it going to be something close up, something delicate, or is it going to be something far away?
Tom:
It is going to be something delicate, yes.
Dan:
Mm. Okay, I'm getting jewelry vibes now.
Alec:
Yeah,​ that's what I was thinking.
Dan:
And some excellent glass-wearing vibes from Rowan.
Tom:
(chuckles)
Rowan:
I was just wanting to— You know, I'm not very good at imagining things rotating shapes in my head, so I just wanted to give it a go, and yep, that's exactly as stupid as I thought it was. Great.
SFX:
(Tom and Dan laugh)
Alec:
Is this just to get more depth perception when looking at something very close up?
Tom:
Yeah. Yeah, I'll go with that. But... why one lens? You could just close one eye if you wanted that.
Dan:
And why turn the glasses upside down?
Tom:
Right.
Rowan:
Is it that you need to really quickly see... something far away and something close up so someone could manually shut each of their eyes... But it would be difficult to— or to show— maybe not even to see something far away. To sh— the difference between them being able to see naturally and what they can see naturally and what they can see with glasses? I don't know, the switching around thing is still confusing me.
Tom:
What would that removed lens allow access to?
Dan:
An eyeball.
Rowan:
Wait​, are they doing surgery on themselves or something? Are they a— an optician or someone who needs to be able to—
Tom:
I mean, I wouldn't go with doing surgery. This is on some mornings.
Rowan:
Peop​le have hobbies, Tom. I dunno.
SFX:
(Tom and Rowan laugh)
Dan:
'Cause​, yeah. It allows free access to an eye.
Tom:
Mhm.
Dan:
I don't get the upside down bit.
Rowan:
Mm.
Dan:
That's​ the bit— Why not just take off the other lens instead and— rather than do with the whole rigmarole of turning your glasses upside down? That's the bit that's getting me.
Tom:
Well, lenses take a while to remove. This is just a single thing that she can pick up in the mornings, use, and then be done for the day.
Rowan:
It's​ because she needs— is— okay, does she use it for her makeup? So she's doing one side, and then turns it, so she can do the other eye?
Tom:
Yes, this is journalist Marianne Jones, who found that she couldn't see while applying mascara and other eye makeup, and so rigged up her glasses, removing one lens in the frame, so she's got one eye to see with while applying mascara to the other eye.
Dan:
And that's a very delicate operation.
Rowan:
Ahh!
Tom:
(laughing)
Rowan:
Than​ks for the assist, Dan.
Dan:
Oh, you're welcome.
Tom:
Each of our guests has brought a question along with them. I don't know the questions. I definitely don't know the answers.
We'll start today with Alec.
Alec:
This question has been sent in by Mateusz Horbaczewski.
In November 2024, a new line of ten LEGO sets was announced, each one having a very similar assembly scheme. Why do two of them have an 18+ age rating, while others are 10+?
And I'll read that one more time.
In November 2024, a new line of ten LEGO sets was announced, each one having a very similar assembly scheme. Why do two of them have an 18+ age rating, while others are 10+?
Dan:
I'm immediately thinking naked LEGO.
Tom:
(laughs)
Dan:
Whethe​r it's the bricks or yourself, naked LEGO.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Tom:
Oh, no! Oh, no! As if standing on a LEGO wasn't bad enough, Dan.
Dan:
Ooh. Mm.
Alec:
Well,​ that— I wonder if there could be some sort of LEGO, like, striptease poker, but... LEGO.
SFX:
(Tom and Dan giggle)
Rowan:
I'm sure there already is, to be honest.
Tom:
That's​ fair.
Alec:
It's true.
Tom:
Yep.
Rowan:
I'm just thinking about age ratings of stuff.
So, the... Nudity or sex is obviously one. Violence or something and so at first I was like, "Maybe it's like a– they're, like, the top ten TV shows or something," but I think the similar assembly wouldn't work. But I'm wondering about whether— 'Cause I know that LEGO do not just characters and sets, but botanicals and houses and stuff. So I was wondering if it was, like, a set of plants and then one of them is, like, weed.
Dan:
Poison​ous LEGO!
Rowan:
And then it's like, "We simply can't— The kids can't know about marijuana. We need to have it— it's 18-rated for the drug and drug paraphernalia bit of the age rating."
Tom:
Is weed legal in Denmark now? I'm not sure.
Alec:
I would think it is, but I'unno.
Tom:
It feels like a country where weed should be legal, but I'm not certain of that.
Dan:
(wheezes)
Alec:
Well,​ it's legal in Missouri now, so...
Tom:
(laughs)
Rowan:
But I'm like, "Yeah, for the over-18s." It's their special treat.
Tom:
I know LEGO never used to have any weapons.
That was a choice they used to do, and I think that's kinda got fuzzier over the years as they've started doing more and more branded sets and more and more kind of brought in pop culture stuff. But I think the original idea of LEGO is that you could only construct with it. You could not destroy.
So I'm wondering if there's something like that where the kids should not have access to a thing that even has a picture of a gun in it or a little weapon of some sort.
Dan:
I think I've seen little space men or something with a little ray gun, though, so it feels like it wouldn't be that but it does feel like a reference to something adult. Top ten list sounds really good. It feels like it's going to be something towards violence or–yeah.
Rowan:
Sexy​ naked LEGO.
Dan:
Mm.
Rowan:
The classics, yeah.
Tom:
You said, "Very similar constructions," Alec. Maybe one of them is just very similar construction. It's just a lot bigger and more complicated. Like, eight of these sets are the children, and two of them are just giant, grown-up sets that actually have 10,000 pieces. No child's gonna have the patience for them.
Alec:
No, that's—the sets each contained about 250 pieces so it's nothing to do with the complexity.
Tom:
Okay.
Alec:
Rowan​ and Tom both kind of pulled on something but then went away from it.
Tom:
(laughs) Alright!
Dan:
Uh-huh​.
Rowan:
What​ was I pulling on? I was pulling on weeds. I was p—
SFX:
(Tom and Rowan laugh)
Rowan:
Some​thing to do with—
Alec:
Weed is not quite there, but maybe pull a little more on that.
Rowan:
Ooh.
Tom:
You said, Rowan, that LEGO has a botanical set. You can get LEGO plants, because someone I know got those instead of actual plants for their flat 'cause they still look nice but they are plastic and do not—
Rowan:
Geni​us.
Tom:
It'sâ€â€‹” It meant you could get plastic plants without the stigma of, "Oh, you can't look after your plants. You just bought some plastic ones." They're LEGO. They're different.
Rowan:
So what kind of plants would be 18+? Or what kind of... Something other than people or constructions?
Alec:
Think​ less plants, more...
Rowan:
We'r​e too into plants.
Alec:
So they're based on something in real life.
Tom:
Okay.
Rowan:
Oh, is it the one— they're, like, hou— they're, like, the houses on a street or something and it's, like, a bar or something that's, like, an 18+ venue that can be made?
Tom:
Yes, 'cause they have the LEGO towns where they've just got streets and things that you can just build the various components for over time.
Alec:
So this was a tie-up with a well-known franchise.
Tom:
Franch​ise?
Dan:
What franchises are there? The big one's Marvel. Marvel and LEGO probably go quite well together. Lord of the Rings?
Tom:
I was still thinking casino franchise for a minute there. I was like, "Harrah's? Caesars Palace?"
Rowan:
It's​ Mega Bingo.
Dan:
Ocean's Eleven.
Tom:
It's just a load of slot machines that—no.
Rowan:
I know there's one big franchise that they specifically don't have a deal with. It's really surprising. It's, like, Star Trek or something, where you think there'd be really big ships of them and they just don't. But I don't know what franchises they do have.
Tom:
I know that because I saw an unofficial LEGO-maker.
Rowan:
Oh.
Tom:
'Cause​ the patent on LEGO has expired. Anyone can make bricks that match as long as you don't use the LEGO name. So there's a company out there that has basically bought up all the franchises that LEGO was not interested in. So if you don't have a LEGO set, there may be an unofficial LEGO set.
Rowan:
Mhm.
Tom:
And I remember looking at, I think it was some Star Trek stuff from them, going, "Well, that doesn't look very good." The building instructions, the style of how it was made, just didn't feel like LEGO somehow, and all I have for that is just sheer vibes.
Alec:
So there were commercial and legal factors involved here.
Tom:
Okay.
Alec:
But I'm gonna be— I'm gonna let you know each model had four black wheels.
Dan:
Ooh. Okay.
Tom:
Oh, okay.
Dan:
So, racing, cars, F1?
Rowan:
Mhm.
Tom:
Okay, big racing franchise. I'm thinking NASCAR. If they've linked up with American NASCAR stuff.
Alec:
So you're really close. Name some companies that are known for being in that sport.
Dan:
Ah, is—if it is NASCAR or something like that, will they have been sponsored by some form of adult site or...
Tom:
Alcoho​l!
Dan:
Or smoking?
Tom:
It'll be alcohol or smoking.
Rowan:
And it's on the side of the cars as part of their—
Tom:
Yes, 'cause they have those decals, and that'll be a requirement by the sponsor, won't it?
Alec:
Yeah,​ not quite alcohol. Think less depressant and more stimulant.
Dan:
Formul​a 1 certainly used to have a lot of smoking sponsors. So is it going to be cigarettes on the side of cars? Is it gonna be something like that?
Tom:
No, it's stimulant. Oh, there's a Red Bull racing team!
Dan:
Ohh!
Rowan:
Ohh.
Alec:
There​ you go.
Rowan:
Yes.
Alec:
That'​s it.
Dan:
It's all over, I say.
Alec:
Yep. I will say, I— When I read this question as an American, I was like, "What?"
SFX:
(group laughing)
Alec:
'Caus​e energy drinks, eh, anybody can get them here, as far as I know.
Tom:
So Red Bull is restricted to under 18s, therefore the Red Bull logo—
Alec:
Yeah.​ So, LEGO released a set of ten Formula 1 cars, one for each manufacturer in the 2025 season, and they had a great amount of detail including customized miniature steering wheels and stickers of real life sponsors.
Red Bull owns two Formula 1 teams: Red Bull Racing and the RB F1 team. And the energy drink's logo is featured on these cars and as such LEGO decided to give them an adult age rating.
Dan:
(wheezes faintly)
Alec:
And while there is no law in the UK banning the sale of energy drinks to minors, many retailers and supermarkets have implemented a self-imposed ban.
Rowan:
That​ is hysterical that we were like— we started this question guessing, like, okay. So there is a drug-fueled LEGO orgy in a bingo hall. It's crazy out there, and then it–the solution is, "Uh, actually, energy drinks."
Tom:
Yeah. Yeah.
Dan:
Yeah.
Rowan:
Love​ that.
Tom:
Thank you to Allen for sending in this question.
Felicity goes into a local shop to buy a loaf of bread. The shopkeeper makes a finger gun gesture, so – after some confustion – Felicity hands over some money before leaving. If she wanted an apple instead, there wouldn't have been any hesitation. Why?
Tom:
I'll say that again.
Felicity goes into a local shop to buy a loaf of bread. The shopkeeper makes a finger gun gesture, so – after some confustion – Felicity hands over some money before leaving. If she wanted an apple instead, there wouldn't have been any hesitation. Why?
Rowan:
Is this a sign language thing? Is there, like, a– the sign for apple or the sign for something is way more obvious to understand as being what it is meant to symbolise?
Dan:
I'm trying to think of bread puns and I'm not coming up with any. It's very disappointing. (wheezes) Come on! Bread puns, Dan!
Tom:
It's alright. I'm sure you'll prove yourself later.
Dan:
Whoa, there you go!
Rowan:
Wow!
Dan:
Yep, there we are.
Rowan:
You can always rise to the occasion.
Dan:
Oh, no!
Tom:
There we go.
Alec:
Ah, you stole that from me. I was gonna say, "Get a rise out of me."
Tom:
Eyy!
Rowan:
(chuckles)
Tom:
That's​ using your loaf.
Dan:
Oh!
Rowan:
Eyy!​ (giggles)
Dan:
And I still can't think of any!
Tom:
(laughs brightly)
Alec:
You know, you'd think a pun is the yeast I could do.
Tom:
Oh, alright, alright. Let's slice it off there. Let's slice it off there.
Rowan:
I'm doing the same as what I was doing with the glasses. I'm like, "Is this how– is this helping me?" And I'm like, "It's not."
Tom:
Finger​ gun gestures.
Rowan:
It's​ not helping me, yeah.
Alec:
Well,​ I— so the first thing that I thought of was I was a Disney cast member in college and we were taught about the 'Disney point', because some cultures, pointing is... with one finger is... considered rude.
And I was wondering, is that maybe just a gesture for, like, "Hey you. You forgot to pay for that," but why would the difference between bread and apple matter?
Dan:
And why was there a bit of confusion?
Alec:
Yeah.
Dan:
There'​s many types of bread. There's many types of apple. So, mm. Like, I want that one. No, I want that one.
Rowan:
Mm.
Alec:
Was it just a very... The sign language gesture for bread is very similar to a finger gun?
Tom:
Sign language is vaguely in the right area, but I worry that the exact phrase, like, "sign language" kinda sends you down the wrong path here.
Dan:
It's a method of communication. But if it had been apple, it would have been a clearer way of— there would have been a clearer way of doing it.
Rowan:
I guess it's like, what is it communicating, right? So it's the... The gap between it was the person wants to buy the bread, and then they do the finger guns and then they pay? Was that the order, Tom?
Dan:
Who is it doing the gesture, here?
Tom:
The shopkeeper.
Dan:
Mm. So it's not, "I would like bread," with the gesture. It's, they've been asked for bread. Is it the amount of bread? The size of bread? This size of loaf? Here's the one that got away, this big?
Rowan:
Is it like, yeah, the... The idea of— oh, I don't even— Yeah, I was thinking about the— pointing towards weighing scales like it's an unusual thing to have to weigh but maybe there's places where you have to— the bread is by weight not just a normal— whereas it's like, loose... fruit might be more obvious to put on the scales or something.
Alec:
Is this some sort of boutique bread shop where you buy loaves and they send it through a slicer?
Dan:
Ooh.
Tom:
You don't need to know more about the shop here. This is the whole— The whole scenario is laid out for you. But what sort of difference might there be between buying an apple and buying a loaf?
Rowan:
The loaf is in packaging. It's... It's bread. It's sliced. It's... No, I got nothing.
Dan:
I'm trying to work out now, are there more types of bread in the world or are there more types of apple? Because bread—apples we have to, you know, breed, but there's hundreds of types of apple. Bread is only different because we make it so. Apples are sort of a natural thing. We make the bread that's all different. Now I'm trying to work out, are there more types of bread in the world or apple? I feel like there'd be more types of bread. I don't know how this helps but I just feel like there's more types of bread than apple in the world.
Rowan:
But I was—But I do think that the fact it was a loaf of bread specifically is— I don't know if it's relevant but it was useful in my head because otherwise it suddenly goes in the direction of a baguette. What's—Is this a baguette sign? Like, what's happening? So I'm like, "Okay, loaf of bread makes more sense."
Tom:
I'm gonna clue you in here and say that Felicity is in a foreign country.
Alec:
Okay,​ so there is a language barrier.
Tom:
Yes. Yes, there is. That's why I didn't want you to go full-on sign language here.
Dan:
Okay.
Tom:
But certainly that's a steer. The shopkeeper's trying to communicate something.
Dan:
Is there going to be a term in another language for a type of bread that means gun? 'Cause isn't a baguette in French known as a baton, or something like that? So you would make a baton symbol. If you wanted to get a baguette or something like that, but is there a word that sounds like gun... That means a type of bread in a different language than English?
Alec:
Pumpe​rnickel.
SFX:
(Tom and Dan laugh)
Rowan:
I mean... as someone who only speaks English, I'm gonna say I have no idea.
Alec:
(laughs)
Dan:
Is gun the right word? We've been told about the gun symbol, but is it the right word that we're after here? We may not be after the word gun.
Tom:
In terms of concept, no, this is not a threat of violence. The shopkeeper is not trying to gesture "gun."
Rowan:
Okay​, so actually maybe it was helping that I was— okay, things that this looks like. A V. A tick. A pointing, like Alec said.
Tom:
That gesture would have been different for an apple— different for all sorts of items.
Dan:
Mhm. Italy is known for a lot of hand gestures. Are we in Italy here?
Tom:
We're not in Italy, no.
Dan:
Hmm.
Tom:
Talk through the scenario. What might the shopkeeper be trying to communicate?
Rowan:
Aski​ng if she wants to pay by a certain method. Seeing if she wants a bag. Does she have a club card?
SFX:
(Tom and Dan laugh)
Rowan:
Clas​sic shop questions.
Tom:
There'​s one more obvious question that a shopkeeper—
Dan:
How many loaves. Oh, is it one or two? Is it going to be one for the thumb and two for the two fingers?
Tom:
Now, getting close there, Dan. Definitely getting close but it's not necessarily a question here. What might the shopkeeper be trying to communicate?
Dan:
It's gotta be something about the bread or the p— or the payment. It's gotta—payment. But it's gotta be the bread because if it was an apple it would have been clear.
Tom:
You sure about that, Dan?
Dan:
No.
SFX:
(both laugh)
Dan:
I feel like I've missed a fundamental step in a transaction here.
Tom:
You have. You've—
Dan:
I know.
Tom:
There'​s a really fundamental step, down to every sketch, every simple idea of going into a shop and buying something. You have missed a very important thing that the shopkeeper needs to tell you.
Dan:
"I'm closed. Go away."
Rowan:
How much you need to pay.
Tom:
Yes. So what might that finger gun symbol have indicated?
Dan:
2.1, 1.2—three?
Rowan:
Is it—is it, Tom— is it that this is a— this specifically is a recognised symbol in another country. Like, there is— it is a hand gesture that is native to that country where they—this is how we express this thing, or is it more situational—
Tom:
Yes. Yes, it is.
Rowan:
Okay​.
Tom:
Yep.
Dan:
Is it one L for lira or something? You're just sort of holding it. It looks like an L.
Tom:
Honest​ly, I think you've got it. I just— What I'm waiting to hear is just a specific thing that that gesture might mean in that country.
Dan:
Dollar​.
Tom:
The other part of the price.
Dan:
One! It means one?
Rowan:
Thre​e.
Tom:
Close enough! I'm not gonna let you guess numbers. That is a number gesture in China. China has a very different set of hand— (laughs) and I saw Alec absolutely facepalm for this!
Alec:
Yeah!​ I learned this in high school. I took Chinese.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Alec:
I don't remember the gestures, but I do remember there's a very complicated—
Dan:
Is it a counting system?
Alec:
I don't kn— I don't remember if it's a counting system or if it's just, like, a very universal signing for the digits.
Tom:
Yep, so, uh, as I have it here, and I had to learn this once I think for a video and I'm gonna try and get these right. Six is like the hang loose sign. Seven is pinching with the first three digits. Eight is the finger gun symbol. Nine is a hook made with your index finger, and ten is either a full fist or crossed fingers. So, why if it had been an apple, would there have been much less hesitation, much less confusion?
Dan:
Differ​ent price, much less valuable, so—
Tom:
It's much cheaper and the numbers there are just one, two, three, four, five fingers.
Rowan:
Mm.
Dan:
Ah. Of course. 'Cause if you got numbers one, two, three, four, five, you can just use a hand and go, "This is the number."
Tom:
Yep.
Alec:
I think it would've been helpful to know that this is some kind of bougie bread loaf 'cause that's a pricey bread loaf.
SFX:
(Tom and Dan laugh)
Tom:
Well, I'm not sure quite how many Yuan there are to the dollar at the moment, Alec.
Alec:
Well,​ that's fair.
Tom:
Yes, this is Felicity buying a loaf of bread in a shop in China and not understanding the hand gestures there for six, seven, eight, nine, and ten. And eight is a finger gun.
Rowan, your question. Whenever you're ready, please.
Rowan:
Amaz​ing.
So this question has been sent in by Ólafur Waage.
In Pompeii, there are basalt cobblestone streets running through the city. Small, white pebbles were inserted into gaps between the corners of the cobbles. Why?
I'll do it once more for you.
In Pompeii, there are basalt cobblestone streets running through the city. Small, white pebbles were inserted into gaps between the corners of the cobbles. Why?
Dan:
I think it's for— So it's a runway so that the ancient Roman planes could see where exactly to land And there they were, coming in, there they go.
Tom:
Oh, I read a book recently. This is not a recommendation, by the way. I'm sorry to just slate someone's book out of nowhere.
SFX:
(Dan and Rowan wheeze)
Tom:
But I read a book called New Pompeii that has just a brilliant concept and just does not seem to do anything with it. The inhabitants of Pompeii are pulled into our time by a corporate time travel experiment just before they all die and they, like– and they are not stupid. They work out what's happening and it's actually, like, ancient Romans with modern technology versus the— that is such a good concept.
Alec:
Yeah.
Tom:
And I did not enjoy the book at all, and it felt like a miss, but there is something in my head about cobblestones because what this guy does like doing is showing his work. He's done the research into ancient Pompeii, and I'm like, I'm sure I have read this somewhere and it has completely escaped me.
Alec:
So are these for— Does this have anything to do with the visual contrast between the stones and the white pebbles?
Rowan:
Abso​lutely does.
Tom:
Yeah, basalt will be black, isn't it? It's volcanic, which also thinking about it, Pompeii, that's kind of a clue.
Dan:
(exhales sharply)
Tom:
That they com— Pompeii, famously volcanic.
Dan:
(laughs)
Alec:
So is this just an early form of road marking?
Tom:
I mean, why would they need that?
Rowan:
So you hilariously, Daniel— your joke about an airplane landing strip is not completely off the mark.
Dan:
The planes are right, yeah?
Rowan:
Yeah​, it's the planes that are right, Dan. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Dan:
I thought so. Well, they had famously straight roads. So if instead of a runway they needed a way of going, "Well, is this road straight or not? How can—What can we see in the distance?" Is it gonna be the little white bits in amongst the black bits? Sort of shining?
Rowan:
The shining aspect of the white stones is key here.
Dan:
Ah. Then I think I might know.
Tom:
Oh, okay.
Dan:
Is it to do with nighttime, then, if it's to do with shining? If you got a black road, at night it's gonna be really difficult to navigate. So–
Tom:
Oh! It's like cats' eyes. It's like the reflective dots you get in roads so you can see where you're going?
Rowan:
That​ was maybe the quickest I feel like anyone's ever gotten this in Lateral. Absolutely. I feel like I'm really bringing the team down being on the answering side. Yeah, this is... In Pompeii, there are these distinctive patterns of white dots that are interspersed among the darker paving stones, which makes it easier to see when lights pour specifically at night where the moon would shine down and the light would bounce off and it would illuminate the path, making it— basically reducing risk of accident, making it possible to actually travel by night, by foot or by cart, which prior to having this kind of innovation would have been much more dangerous or not probably done at all.
Tom:
You'd have been falling off the road all the time.
Rowan:
Mhm.
Dan:
Ah, it's such a simple solution as well for... a problem that happens every day, every night. It's just such a simple solution. Absolute geniuses, the ancient Romans.
Rowan:
I mean, the thing is that this— I was really surprised you went this quickly into what it was because I feel like Pompeii is already known a lot for its different street markings and architecture and things like that because it had a lot of people who were illiterate.
And so quite famously, there would be... frescoes in the brothels in order for you to essentially order off a menu, because you would just look at the sex act, and be like, "That, please." Or...
SFX:
(guys laughing)
Rowan:
Ther​e's a bunch of stuff about Pompeii that is about stuff in this—
Tom:
Wow!
Rowan:
and arrows in the streets that would direct to certain stores, or also to brothels. It's— The ancient Romans loved their brothel. Because, again, people wouldn't be able to necessarily see the— on the signs read what were— what they wanted, or what they were trying to go to. So, yeah, there's a lot of stuff that I— that you kind of didn't even go down.
I was really anticipating talking about that stuff, but you went straight in onto the practical road markings.
Tom:
Appare​ntly we don't have much ancient Roman knowledge here.
Rowan:
I fear I am the man who is obsessed with ancient Rome on this call.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Dan:
I just don't know anything about brothels.
Alec:
(laughs)
Tom:
This question's been sent in by Matan. Danish schools have a unique way to grade their students. The best grade is 12, followed by 10, 7, 4, 02, 00, and -3. Why? I'll say that again, possibly so you can take notes. Danish schools have a unique way to grade their students. The best grade is 12, followed by 10, 7, 4, 02, 00, and -3. Why?
Dan:
Now, Scott, you asked me... Sorry, why'd I call you Scott? Sorry.
Tom:
I don't know. It happens—
SFX:
(guests laugh uproariously)
Tom:
I don't know. It happens a lot. Also, for the longest time, I was "Tomscott." One w— I'm just one of those people who gets referred to by both names far too often.
Dan:
So, Tomscott—no.
Tom:
It's better than "Other Tom." I got that the other week on this podcast when Tom from "Tom Rocks Maths" was on.
Dan:
You asked me a question at the start, Tom, about retaining facts. I know for a fact that I've asked this—the question, "Which country grades its students with 12, 10, 7, 4—" I've asked that question. Did I look into why?
Tom:
(laughs heartily)
Dan:
I did not. I just went, "Oh, that's a great fact, and so weird," and then I never looked into why. So I know this is true.
Tom:
Yeah.
Dan:
Haven'​t got a clue why.
Tom:
Mm.
Alec:
I'm hung up on 02.
Dan:
Mm.
Tom:
Mhm.
Alec:
Why not two?
Dan:
And 00. Like a roulette wheel.
Alec:
Yeah.
Dan:
Are we grading them on a roulette wheel?
Tom:
(laughs)
Dan:
Today you've won nothing.
Rowan:
I'm wondering if it's not, like... similar to the gun— finger gun situation, that it's not—that it's actually these numbers, but it's something that looks like them or it's the other way around where they grade via, I don't know, Roman numeral, or some other way of writing those numbers that does make more sense when it's all put together, potentially.
Tom:
You're​ right that those individual numbers don't have mathematical significance. It's not that ten, seven, four, zero— It's not like we're going down a scale that exactly corresponds to those grades.
Dan:
'Cause​ it goes to -3.
Tom:
It does.
Dan:
"How did you do at school today?" "Well, I'd be better if I hadn't gone."
Tom:
(laughs)
Dan:
"And got zero." 12— Is it something that comes in a group of 12, or is it a word for excellent? It's got 10 let— 12 letters? No, 'cause nothing's got -3 letters, and nothing's got 00 letters, so it's not— I don't know, Tom!
Tom:
(laughs)
Alec:
Is this like a... a question to do with bases, different bases of counting?
Tom:
No, there's no mathematical significance here.
Alec:
Okay.
Rowan:
Is it the way—I mean, I'm trying to think as well, 'cause it's not— Which country was it you said, Tom?
Tom:
Denmar​k.
Rowan:
So if it is something in Danish in the language of, like, what those numbers sound like in Danish has some effect, or what they... anything to the letters in the... in, yeah, however you say it, or, I mean, they wouldn't— the writing system wouldn't be different. But I'm thinking about how those... letters look on the page, and if that has anything to do with it.
Tom:
Yes, it does, Rowan. That's a good path to go down.
Rowan:
I don't have any pens in front of me. I'm drawing on my hand.
Tom:
(chuckles)
Dan:
I've written it down on the sheet of paper in front of me and... I can't see a pattern. Of course, how do you write the number seven? I'm someone who does it— who does the standard seven and then puts a line through it which I think is quite a European way.
Rowan:
Yeah​, I also put the line through.
Dan:
I'm a big fan of that.
Rowan:
Bit of flair to our sevens.
Dan:
Hmm. You can't read any of my writing anyway, but it sort of distinguishes it.
Tom:
(snickers) I think you would want to do that in this case. I think you would want to put a line through that seven.
Dan:
Oh, are they unique? If you write this, you cannot mistake it for another one on the list?
Alec:
Oh, it's... okay, is this to do with the kids turning in— an F into an A?
Dan:
(guffaws)
Tom:
Keep going, Alec! Keep going!
Alec:
Yeah,​ okay.
Rowan:
Thos​e sneaky little kids!
Alec:
Okay,​ so the— so this would be basically impossible to alter into another grade.
Tom:
Yes. Yes, it would.
Alec:
And so it's an anti-cheating measure, basically.
Dan:
That's​ why it's 02. Because if you just wrote two...
Rowan:
Coul​d be seven-ish.
Dan:
Well, it could be 12. It could be the top.
Rowan:
Oh, yeah. And put a one.
Dan:
Yeah.
Tom:
Yes. Absolutely right.
Alec:
It's like that font on European license plates.
Tom:
Yes, so you can't turn one letter into another easily.
Alec:
That was a fact I recently learned about how in much of Europe there's private companies that produce license plates, and... that feels so weirdly not European. 'Cause here it's the state that does that. And so you get— it's a government thing and it just feels so weird to me that the process of manufacturing license plates has been privatized.
Rowan:
(snickers) I mean, in America, notoriously that's being done by prisoners. So I feel like you still—
Alec:
Not always.
Rowan:
That​ kinda feels like it's been good. But you do get the nice pictures and patterns on yours. Our ones are just a boring colour. There's one person on— There's a guy on TikTok who— his whole thing he does on TikTok is making license plates for countries as if they were like American license plates and figuring out the iconic flora and fauna and the iconic buildings that you would have.
Tom:
Oh, that's lovely.
Rowan:
And it's— I'm like, "That's what the internet should be about."
Tom:
But they can't be read by our automated surveillance systems so they can't be allowed.
Rowan:
Sadl​y.
Tom:
Yes, this is a list specifically chosen to make it as hard as possible for students to alter the grades to make them look more flattering. So in theory you can add a line to a one to make it a seven, you can close up the curve on a six to make an eight, and yes, that leading zero is there to stop a 2 becoming a 12.
Absolutely right. Well done, everyone. You all score 12 for that question.
Alec:
Yay.
Tom:
Next question comes from Dan.
Dan:
This question has been sent in by Jared Pike. So thank you very much, Jared, for this.
At a major American football game in the 2010s, why might you see orange sleeve-length gloves crossed in front of Dick Shafter's chest?
Tom:
(cracks up) One more time, there.
Dan:
I'll read that again. Dunno why you're giggling.
At a major American football game in the 2010s, why might you see orange sleeve-length gloves crossed in front of Dick Shafter's chest?
Alec:
Don't​ look at me. I know I'm the American here, but don't look at me. I have no idea.
Rowan:
I think–I feel like you've stumped us from the very start. (laughs) What a question.
Tom:
Just occasionally, the writers for Lateral will drop in a stupid name and I had to read out "Dick Trickle's helmet" in front of a live audience for the one live show we've done and, "Dick Shafter's chest–" alright, fine.
Rowan:
So, do we— Is it important that we know who this fellow is? Is his job or his whatever it is important?
Dan:
Yeah, I would say so, yes.
Alec:
So, I've— going back to the— the first thing that got me... To move quickly, the visual of that would be like a bright orange X.
Tom:
Yes. Yes, it would.
Alec:
So–
Tom:
Or a V, depending on where he puts his... If it's sleeve-length gloves, it's a V or an X that he's holding up in front of him.
Alec:
I don't think it's a big virtual tic-tac-toe game, but maybe it would signify... disagreement with a referee or something?
Tom:
Yeah, does American football have something like VAR, Alec? Where they do video-assisted referee and they check stuff after it happens?
Alec:
I think so, but I'm not the right person to ask.
Tom:
(laughs)
Dan:
Yeah, there's flags on the play all the time. You can request things, yeah.
Rowan:
Is Dick Shafter a really famous person, and I just don't know who this man is? Is he, like, "Oh, he's obviously the most obvious quarterback in the NFL, blah, blah, blah," and then everyone's gonna be laughing at me, or is it like—
Tom:
I know enough American football to know that I don't think Dick Shafter is that famous. I feel like I would have heard of Dick Shafter.
Alec:
Mhm, yeah.
Dan:
They are a real person, but, yeah, not necessarily famous in that sense.
Tom:
Alrigh​t.
Alec:
Did you tell us the position of the person?
Dan:
I did not.
Tom:
No.
Rowan:
He might not be a player, though.
Alec:
Yeah.
Rowan:
I mean, we're assuming he's a player, but he could be a coach or a referee or a fan.
Tom:
Oh, he's just one of those people in the stands who tries to put off whoever's punting or whoever's putting a field goal. He's just–it's too far away for that, though. Which, it's–that's basketball. I'm thinking basketball and free throws. If you ever go to a college basketball game or something like that, the fans will absolutely pull all sorts of stunts to just try and put off the person who has to make the free throw, but I don't know. Punting in American football is too far for that.
Rowan:
Is the crossing the chest the only sign? Is this like, this is one thing that happens, and this is it, or is it, like, one of many, like we were saying about the different hand signs in the earlier question. Is it like there could— he does a bunch of stuff with his cool gloves?
Dan:
I am not sure of the exact gesture, but there is one gesture in particular that is useful.
Alec:
So he's not just cold.
Dan:
(laughs) He's wearing them for warmth. Hmm.
Rowan:
I mean, this is the sign for "stop," normally.
Tom:
Yeah.
Rowan:
I feel like, if you're doing the cross.
Tom:
"Stop"​ or "no" or "wrong." But I've never seen an umpire in an NFL game wear sleeve-length orange gloves. That is–they normally just gesture up for field goal or have something— I don't know what the missed field goal is. It might be a cross or something like that, but why would you wear the bright orange gloves?
Rowan:
The other bit of the question is 2010s.
I don't know if there was some new tech or old tech or something about the 2010s that was specific or whether this guy was just kind of an icon and just decided to do this and it was, like, a fun tradition.
Tom:
It could be that he's retired or something like that. There's now someone else doing his job, and his name is not Dick Shafter.
What about snow? 'Cause I know in some sports, the equipment changes in snow. They have to use a bright orange ball or a bright orange something. And maybe Dick Shafter is in the cold part of America and has gloves so he can be seen through the snowstorms in winter matches.
Dan:
The weather is irrelevant here.
Tom:
Ah.
Alec:
This is a kind of signal? Have we established that?
Dan:
Yeah.
Tom:
Yeah.
Alec:
Okay.
Rowan:
Peop​le who might need to signal during a game are, like– I feel like we're dumb. Peak players who are... maybe there's a... he's a player who's... I feel like in America, they're called something of the type of player who decides during the game, what plays they're gonna do, so maybe it's like a sign that they do that the rest of the team knows. And then they do that play, or a referee or umpire who's deciding about something or—
Tom:
They also have the coaches on the sidelines. Frequently the person who actually decides the tactical move is off the pitch just kind of in radio comms with the quarterback.
So it could be a gesture like, "Ignore everything I'm saying. Just go with what you want. We're just trying to confuse the other team, here."
Dan:
So you're right that the gesture is going to be important, but I will say that Dick Shafter was not a player.
Tom:
Okay.
Dan:
Nor was he a match official.
Rowan:
Did he work— was he either a fan, then, that leaves— or someone who wor— worked for the stadium?
Alec:
Would​ this be something to do with the broadcasting team?
Rowan:
Is it someone who decides when ads happen?
Is it a really American thing where he's the person who signals to the— to who ever is do— like, the umpires, like, we need to stop play because this is when ads need to happen after this next goal or whatever because they— they have ads during the Super Bowl, right? So they do ads during games. But you wouldn't be able to stop the game and it still is going on, and people— and the score's continuing and they just come back after a commercial break like, "Oh, by the way, you missed all of that."
So is it someone who decides when there's ads?
Dan:
It is exactly that.
Tom:
Ohh!
Dan:
It is to indicate— So they don't decide when the ads happen. That'll be a network decision.
But it is so that they can indicate to the match officials ...when it is time to go to a commercial and just pause play.
Normally it's match officials doing all the signaling. You know, touchdown, that sort of thing. This is not that. This is someone to signal to the match officials.
Rowan:
That​ was—I was, like, the little clue— I feel like with all these questions there's, like— every little aspect is a little clue and I was, like...
Tom:
(laughs)
Rowan:
"Ame​rica and the— and the football and the Super Bowl," and then, like, "What do I actually know about this?" Basically nothing except for how iconic the— the fact that there are ads, so I was like, "Okay, it must be a thing that there are ads during these games," and I've always wondered about that, like, how you do it, whether people just miss bits of games, but this makes so much sense. It's like— especially because American football starts and stops so frequently that it would be pretty easy to be like, "Okay, after this play, just stop here."
Tom:
Well, they'll know when the long pauses and the short pauses will be. Sso it might be something as simple as, "We're not back from ads yet," or something. Just don't keep going. 'Cause I know the later you get in the Super Bowl, the fewer ads there are because they can only guarantee a certain amount of slots.
So it might just be just, "Hold, hold. We're nearly back. We're nearly back. We're– Alright, you're good to go." Why the gloves, though? Is he up in a big box somewhere with the broadcaster and just—
Alec:
It feels very eccentric to use gloves rather than a light.
Tom:
(laughs)
Dan:
The light might be a little bit too extra– uh, too distracting, maybe, for the players.
So Dick Shafter was working as the timeout producer for ESPN's Monday Night Football. His distinctively large, brightly-coloured gloves allowed him to attract the attention of the on-field umpire.
When the TV production team want to go to a commercial, Dick would then cross his arms to indicate this before the next break in play would happen.
Tom:
Which just leaves the question I asked at the start of the show.
In the Spanish media, who does Carlos, Guillermo, and Enrique usually refer to?
Before I give this one to the audience, does anyone want to take a shot at it?
Dan:
Carlos​ is Charles? Guillermo–is that William? Enrique–Rick? Who's Charles, William, and Rick?
Rowan:
That​ sounds like the royal family.
Dan:
Or is it Harry instead? Is it something royal?
Tom:
Yes, you're absolutely right. That is the British royal family. Spanish media often – though not always – translates foreign royal names into the local equivalents.
Dan:
Oh.
Tom:
So you have El Rey Carlos, his sons Guillermo and Enrique, then you have Jorge and Carlota, Luis, and you also have Princess of Wales Catalina.
Dan:
Oh, that's lovely.
Tom:
So sometimes, not always, the Spanish version of the name will be used there. Congratulations to all our players. Where can people find you? What's going on in your lives? We will start with Alec.
Alec:
I am on YouTube at TechnologyConnection​s, or youtube.com–howeve​r that works. Just search me. And I'm also on Bluesky lately. But that's kind of it.
Tom:
Rowan!
Rowan:
You can find me on YouTube if you search for Rowan Ellis or... on any podcast app of your choice if you search Queer Movie Podcast.
Tom:
Dan!
Dan:
You can find me on social media and YouTube and the like. Search for QuizzyDan.
Tom:
And if you wanna know more about this show, you can do that at lateralcast.com where you can also send in your own ideas for questions. We are @lateralcast basically everywhere, and there are regular video highlights at youtube.com/lateralc​ast.
Thank you very much to Dan Peake.
Dan:
Thank you very much.
Tom:
Rowan Ellis.
Rowan:
Than​k you.
Tom:
Alec Watson.
Alec:
Hi, thank you.
Tom:
I've been Tom Scott, and that's been Lateral.
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