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Episode 131: Very happy mice
Published 11th April, 2025
Ella Hubber, Caroline Roper and Tom Lum from 'Let's Learn Everything!' face questions about swing speeds, blurted brands and clever coins.
HOST: Tom Scott. QUESTION PRODUCER: David Bodycombe. EDITED BY: Julie Hassett at The Podcast Studios, Dublin. MUSIC: Karl-Ola Kjellholm ('Private Detective'/'Agrumes', courtesy of epidemicsound.com). ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS: Dylan, Rex S., Chris Richards, Adam, Dan T.. FORMAT: Pad 26 Limited/Labyrinth Games Ltd. EXECUTIVE PRODUCERS: David Bodycombe and Tom Scott.
Transcription by Caption+
Tom Scott:
What everyday device has adjustments for swing speed and latch speed?
The answer to that at the end of the show. My name's Tom Scott, and this is Lateral.
We know it's gonna be a fun episode today because we are welcoming back some regular guests: the gang from Let's Learn Everything!
Tom Lum:
Aww, yay!
Caroline:
H​i! Oh my goodness.
Tom Scott:
Hello, hello, hello.
Tom Lum:
I can't wait to find out that in this recording block, you say that for every single one when we listen.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Tom Scott:
And also, Ella and Caroline, we had the pleasure of meeting at the live show in London.
Caroline:
O​h my goodness!
Ella:
Yes.
Caroline:
Y​eah!
Ella:
You'r​e real!
Tom Scott:
Yes. So are you!
SFX:
(Caroline and Tom Lum laugh)
Tom Scott:
We got a selfie with the wrong Tom. Just to annoy your listeners.
Caroline:
Y​eah.
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Tom Scott:
And actually, on that topic, I do have a public appeal to make to our listeners.
At the live show, there was a very expensive 'LATERAL' sign made for the set. However, at the end of the show...
SFX:
(guests cracking up)
Tom Scott:
only the T, R, and A letters were remaining.
If anyone knows the whereabouts of the letters, E, L, L, and A...
Ella:
Wow.
Tom Scott:
Then please do get in touch with the show.
Sorry, back with you. Ella, what were we talking about?
SFX:
(Ella and Caroline laugh)
Ella:
Gosh,​ that's weird, isn't it?
Caroline:
W​ow, that sounds, that's crazy.
Tom Scott:
It's really weird.
Caroline:
L​ondon, man.
Tom Scott:
That sign made by producer David in his shed with polystyrene and hot wire.
Ella:
Thank​ you, David. It's made a lovely addition to my home.
Tom Scott:
We should—
SFX:
(group laughs uproariously)
Tom Scott:
We should probably plug the podcast. Tell me about Let's Learn Everything.
Ella:
Which​ one of us? All of us in sync?
Tom Lum:
At the same time. We've been practicing.
Tom Scott:
I normally throw in each of you. I should also introduce you by name. Caroline Roper.
Caroline:
H​ello!
Tom Scott:
Let's Learn Everything.
Caroline:
Y​eah, so it's a show where we try to learn about anything and everything interesting. We talk about science topic and a miscellaneous topic, but the other hosts don't know what we're gonna talk about. So it's all a lovely learning experience.
Tom Scott:
What sort of topics, Tom Lum?
Tom Lum:
We've covered things like black holes, tattoos. That was actually the same episode, was black holes and tattoos. I love a good double pairing like that.
We've interviewed the latest batch of Ig Nobel winners.
We've had a friend of yours, Tom Scott, on, Gretchen McCulloch.
Tom Scott:
Yes.
Tom Lum:
The wonderful linguist. So yeah, we learn about a lot, a lot of different things.
Tom Scott:
And Ella Hubber. I haven't got a question for you because it was gonna be, what are you talking about soon? And I realised you're literally not allowed to say that.
Ella:
Do you wanna guess, guys? You wanna have a guess what I'm gonna talk about? Throw some ideas out.
Tom Lum:
This is just a trick to get new ideas. I know this one. I've done this before.
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Tom Scott:
Well, as the producer padlocks the studio equipment to various immovable objects, let us secure our passage to question one.
Ella:
Won't​ stop me.
Caroline:
(laughs warmly)
Tom Scott:
Thank you to Adam for this question.
During filming, why would a K-pop idol sometimes shout "Nike, Adidas, Puma"?
I'll say that again.
During filming, why would a K-pop idol sometimes shout "Nike, Adidas, Puma"?
Tom Lum:
Thank you for getting the UK and US pronunciations in there. It was great.
Tom Scott:
It's rare to have a question with three separate pronunciations that—
Tom Lum:
Yeah.
Tom Scott:
It's not even a UK–US thing. Both countries say both to some extent. The UK is more divided.
Ella:
Yeah,​ I've heard both.
Tom Scott:
Yeah.
Tom Lum:
Well, 'cause it's funny 'cause when you first said the question, it was complete nonsense. And then the second time, I was like, "Oh, I can understand—" no.
Tom Scott:
Also, every time I say it's a US–UK distinction, I get complaints from Australians, Canadians, and the rest of the English speaking world. I'll say that is a transatlantic difference.
Tom Lum:
Guys, if we keep pulling fun facts out of Tom Scott, we won't have to answer the question. We can just have this be a regular conversation. I almost forgot for a second that we have to answer this. I was like, "Oh, that's so interesting. It reminds me of this fun fact about, yeah."
Ella:
Are there any other shoe brands, Tom? That have a distinction?
Tom Scott:
Actually, the brands here are not important. Others would work.
Ella:
And also the pronunciation is not important either.
Tom Scott:
No, no. I deliberately pronounced it both ways.
Caroline:
O​h, okay. 'Cause my first thought was like... they're fishing around to see which sponsor they can get. So they're just saying all of them in the hopes that they'll get one of them. But if the brand's not important, then it can't be that.
Tom Lum:
Ella has accused me of, if I wear my MUNA shirt, being like, "They're not gonna notice, Tom."
SFX:
(group laughing)
Ella:
It's because Tom wore a hat for a game that we like.
Tom Lum:
Katamari.
Ella:
Andâ€â€‹” in a TikTok and they approached him.
Tom Scott:
Wow!
Ella:
And I was, come on! (wheezes loudly)
Tom Lum:
Ahh, again, once again, what a great conversation to have with just Tom Scott. And that's what this podcast is about.
Ella:
Yeah,​ yeah. It's just us having a chat, right? Should we figure out the question?
Tom Lum:
I thought this was a theatre pronunciation warmup. Like, unique New York. You know, unique, unique New York.
Tom Scott:
Yeah, everybody, very body, er— and so on. You were actually closer with the earlier topic, Tom.
Tom Lum:
Was it Caroline's shout about how they were ads or trying to attract adver— Oh, oh. Is this... Could this be like... putting— saying copyrighted names so that they can't use a take or something like that?
Tom Scott:
Yes. Yes, it can.
Ella:
Oh!
Caroline:
O​h!
Tom Scott:
Keep talking. Why might they suddenly start shouting that?
Ella:
This is on set, did you say?
Tom Lum:
Yeah, filming, right, something?
Tom Scott:
Yes.
Tom Lum:
During filming.
Caroline:
D​uring filming.
Tom Scott:
You've basically got it. But talk me through the thought process there. Why would they suddenly start shouting brand names?
Ella:
They messed up in an embarrassing way.
Tom Scott:
Yeah.
Ella:
And they don't want that to be aired. And it can't be if it's...
Caroline:
(gasps)
Tom Scott:
That's the last part of it, yes. They know that their management will not allow footage of unauthorised endorsements to be released.
Tom Lum:
Unauthorized endorsements. I love the idea that this carries over into regular life. And so anytime you're about to swear, you're just like "Disney!"
SFX:
(group laughs heartily)
Tom Lum:
"Oh my toe, oh!"
Caroline:
A​lso, I think what we've learnt here is that the chitchat actually truly does make us answer so quickly.
Tom Scott:
Yeah, it really does.
SFX:
(Caroline and Tom Lum laugh)
Tom Scott:
There are other approaches to this as well. Particularly... maybe a longer time ago in Britain, this was a technique that other people might use?
Ella:
Just flashing a nipple.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Tom Scott:
What would the verbal equivalent of that be?
Caroline:
(guffaws)
Ella:
Swear​ing.
Tom Scott:
Yes.
Ella:
Are we allowed to swear in this podcast? 'Cause that'll...
Tom Scott:
You will, but it will be bleeped.
Ella:
Oh, okay. So it won't get me out of
Tom Scott:
No.
Ella:
sayin​g anything stupid.
Caroline:
A​wwh.
Tom Lum:
Anything embarrassing.
Tom Scott:
But that is a trick that politicians and people who had media training were taught in sort of the '50s and '60s.
Caroline:
A​h.
Tom Scott:
Is that if you don't want the take to be used, if you said something stupid, just immediately go into swearing, and they won't, can't use it. Obviously, it is many years later. That has changed now. But there is still a show where something like that happened. It's a very, very nice British show.
Tom Lum:
Great British Bake Off?
Tom Scott:
Yes.
Caroline:
Y​eah.
Tom Scott:
Yes.
Ella:
(gasps) Yes. Oh, so I've heard of this. When the contestants were crying, were getting upset, the hosts Mel and Sue didn't want them to be filmed. They didn't want them to be seen like that. So they would start going over and swearing and being really rude so it couldn't be aired.
SFX:
(Tom Scott and Caroline laugh)
Tom Lum:
Awwh.
Ella:
It's such a nice thing to do.
Caroline:
T​hat's so lovely! (laughs heartily)
Tom Lum:
Hey, hey. F Word. Hey, don't worry.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Tom Scott:
Yes, this is why a K-pop idol might shout some brand names. They're trying to avoid an embarrassing mistake being released.
Each of our players has a question with them. As ever, we're gonna start with Ella.
Ella:
This question has been sent in by Rex S.
In 1978, Ken Woolner wrote a biography of Claude Émile Jean-Baptiste Litre. Though it was an April Fool's prank, how could it have helped avoid confusion?
I'll say that again.
In 1978, Ken Woolner wrote a biography of Claude Émile Jean-Baptiste Litre. Though it was an April Fool's prank, how could it have helped avoid confusion?
Tom Lum:
I know that that last line is helpful context.
Tom Scott:
(laughs)
Tom Lum:
I love— There's nothing better in one of these questions than a last line that makes you go, "Wait, what? Wait. We're talking about what?"
SFX:
(group laughing)
Tom Lum:
I need to reevaluate every word you just said. Thank you for the second time. Can I ask what year it was again?
Ella:
1978.
Tom Lum:
1978, okay.
Tom Scott:
I tried to take notes of the name and I wrote down the initials, and what I got was C.E.J.B. Litre, and that is not helpful.
Caroline:
(guffaws)
Tom Lum:
(wheezes) C.J.
Ella:
I mean, the name is definitely helpful, but not maybe...
Tom Lum:
Oh, dang it.
Ella:
Theâ€â€‹” not maybe the whole thing.
Tom Scott:
Claude Émile Jean-Baptiste Litre.
Tom Lum:
Is it Litre like the unit of measurement?
Caroline:
Y​eah.
Ella:
That'​s how it's spelled, yeah.
Caroline:
S​o is it something to do with units of measurement?
Tom Scott:
I mean, that's a thing that confuses a lot of people.
Caroline:
Y​eah.
Tom Scott:
And then the biographer was Ken which sounds very American. Admittedly that's because I'm thinking...
Tom Lum:
That's a good point.
Tom Scott:
Barbie and Ken, but...
Caroline:
Y​eah, yeah, yeah.
Tom Scott:
Ken is a name that I associate with a very different culture to Claude Émile Jean-Baptiste.
SFX:
(Caroline and Tom Lum laugh)
Tom Scott:
This is my friend Claude Émile Jean-Baptiste. And this is Ken.
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Tom Scott:
Sorry to any Kens. I didn't mean to make your name sound that bland.
Tom Lum:
How did— It's an April Fool's prank. How did it avoid confusion? And 1970, so this is pre, pre-internet, so that throws away some of the memes I would be thinking of, but...
Caroline:
H​mm.
Tom Lum:
My first thought is because of the names. If the names are occlude— if this is like... something— a similar trick to like how the Vampire Weekend song "A-Punk" was like the top— it's a huge hit because it was the first alphabetically. So, so...
Tom Scott:
Wait, what?
Tom Lum:
It would be the first to play.
Yeah, so their song, it's "A-Punk", like A – space – Punk. And because of that, on iTunes, when you would plug it into a car or something, it's the first song alphabetically. And so it would— So many people know it as the first song that plays when you connect to a car or start your iPod back then.
Tom Scott:
I saw someone who had created a song that was just called A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A.
Tom Lum:
Yeah.
Tom Scott:
Just so when you plugged your iPod into the old car stereo, it would not just play the same song every time.
Ella:
I mean, it's a nice thought. It's not quite there. The name is important, but the surname is the most important thing here.
Tom Scott:
The surname is Litre. 1978 is about when countries were deciding on switching to metric.
Caroline:
A​h.
Tom Lum:
Fascinating.
Tom Scott:
And America was sort of heading that way and then didn't. Britain was sort of heading that way and ended up in a horrible mess between the two. But I do wonder if that was a topic that was popular right then?
Ella:
No, no.
Tom Scott:
Augh!
Ella:
It's not about—
Caroline:
(cackles)
Ella:
No, sorry. It's not about the metric switch.
Tom Lum:
I was like, is this a way to— Yeah, counter-programming,​ to be like, oh, the person who invented the litre was this person, and then make a fake biography about how they're...
Caroline:
O​hh!
Tom Lum:
a horrible person. And so it's like, oh, the litre inventor was actually...
Ella:
It is though about, I mean, you know, there's a vein of the correct answer in there.
Tom Lum:
Uh-huh.
Ella:
That it is about how we use... measurements or units of measurement.
Tom Scott:
The litre is the average amount that one man, Claude Litre, could urinate in one go. That's the absolute low—
SFX:
(Caroline and Ella laugh)
Tom Scott:
I didn't— I was really hoping that by the time my brain got to the word 'urinate' in that sentence, I'd have something better.
Tom Lum:
A better answer?
Tom Scott:
But I couldn't think of any other thing to do with the body that would be about a litre.
Tom Lum:
Tom, I would not have pulled that trigger if li— if urination was my fallback answer. Then I would not have jumped if that was my fallback.
Caroline:
Y​ou've made me think, though. Is it actually a book or is it something shaped like a book?
Ella:
No, no, it's actually a biographical article that was written.
Caroline:
R​ight, okay. Not a physical book, okay.
Tom Scott:
It's one of those April Fool's pranks that appears in newspapers and things like that, okay.
Ella:
Right​. The content of the article is really not that important. It's the fact that it exists at all that Woolner was using to try and make a very pedantic point.
Caroline:
I​s it just like... to correct people's spelling or something?
Ella:
You'r​e on the right lines.
Tom Scott:
Oh. 'Cause litre is spelled two different ways.
Caroline:
Y​eah.
Tom Scott:
He was just in an argument with his partner and decided that a fake biography would settle it in his favour that Litre was a real person and...
Caroline:
(guffaws)
Tom Lum:
He died having never done the dishes or laundry and lived a happier life, he said. He's known for saying.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Ella:
You hit on a point there that this made Litre a "real person" in air quotations. That's... That was important to his point.
Tom Lum:
Because it— my— I mean, my brain just goes to, you could cite it then in Wikipedia.
Tom Scott:
(laughs)
Tom Lum:
But this is before this time. So it's something like... Oh gosh. Is it to do with spelling and pronunciation? 'Cause maybe to...
Ella:
Not spelling, but how it is written. It is to do with how it's written.
Caroline:
C​apitalisation?
Ella:
(glares silently)
Caroline:
O​h. Oh.
Tom Scott:
Oh!
Ella:
Carol​ine.
Tom Scott:
Because it was still up for debate then in every style guide about whether you capitalise units that are named after people.
Ella:
Yes, exactly.
Tom Lum:
Whoa!
Caroline:
O​hhh!
Tom Scott:
The watt, the ohm, the volt. They're all named after people.
Tom Lum:
Yes!
Caroline:
Y​eah.
Tom Lum:
Wow!
Tom Scott:
Is the litre not?
Ella:
The litre is not. It's not named after a real person. So the point of Woolner writing this biography, this fake biography, was so that the L, the L for litre, could be used as a capital, as an uppercase L, rather than as a lowercase 'l'.
Tom Lum:
Hey guys, that's not okay.
Caroline:
W​hoa!
SFX:
(group laughing)
Tom Lum:
That doesn't solve the issue!
Caroline:
(cackles)
Ella:
A group of US scientists at the time had proposed that the unit for a litre should be written as an uppercase L, since the lowercase version had the potential to be confused with the number one.
Tom Scott:
Yep.
Caroline:
A​h, yeah.
Ella:
But because units, international standard units, SI units are named after a person are usually abbreviated to a capital letter, such as A for Ampere or K for Kelvin, that didn't apply to things that weren't named after people. So Woolner wrote this as an April Fool's joke to kind of justify using a capital L for litre.
Tom Scott:
This question comes from Dan T. Thank you, Dan.
In 2013, the United States Mint released a 25-cent coin that featured the same face on both sides. Who did the face belong to, and why was this coin minted?
I'll say that again.
In 2013, the United States Mint released a 25-cent coin that featured the same face on both sides. Who did the face belong to, and why was this coin minted?
Ella:
You see, when I hear that, because we have a monarch on one side of our coins, I would just be like, it's just the same— It's the monarch. It's the same person on both sides. But obviously that doesn't apply here. So what's— Who's normally on your coins, Tom?
Caroline:
T​hat was my question.
Tom Lum:
Oh, to lie or to tell the truth.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Tom Lum:
Such is my predicament. Yeah, one side's usually— So they— So it alternates on every even year, they'll print like a Marvel superhero, and then on odd years –
Caroline:
Y​eah, uh-huh.
Tom Lum:
– they'll do a DC superhero usually.
Caroline:
W​ow, that's crazy.
Tom Lum:
I say that because my first joke was it was gonna be a Two Face coin. The one where he flips it, and it's heads on both sides. What year, again, was this?
Tom Scott:
2013.
Tom Lum:
2013. That is when... I feel like recently they've been doing a lot more fun stuff with quarters. Like they did the... They started, when I was a kid, they started doing states. So they would, every few years, they would release some more states on the back.
So I mean, the quarter, the front side is George Washington, and then the backside's an eagle. And so it's usually presidents. Abraham Lincoln's on the penny.
Ella:
So it's not— I assume it's not just George Washington on both sides. 'Cause that would be...
Tom Lum:
Yeah, it's one, and then on the back is the silly one. It's like...
SFX:
(group laughing)
Tom Scott:
You are actually not that far away there. You have identified the person.
Tom Lum:
Oh...
Ella:
Oh. (wheezes)
Caroline:
O​h! Okay, great.
Ella:
I had so many other things to go for there, but good.
Tom Scott:
But it would be strange for them to just do a double Washington coin.
Caroline:
Y​eah.
Tom Lum:
Yeah.
Ella:
I mean, I assume it's some kind of anniversary or event, but...
Tom Scott:
It's actually not. The year isn't important here.
Tom Lum:
I have a— Is it a state coin, Tom?
Tom Scott:
It's not a state coin, but it definitely... What state were you thinking of, Tom?
Tom Lum:
Was it one of the Dakotas?
Tom Scott:
It was one of the Dakotas, and I think you might have solved it.
Tom Lum:
Okay, I'll step back. Yeah. I don't think that'll be a hint to them, but I think—
Tom Scott:
It won't.
Caroline:
N​o. (laughs)
Ella:
Oh no. Is this some American history thing we have to get here?
Tom Lum:
It's not American history so much as it's one of the...
Tom Scott:
It is an icon of America.
Tom Lum:
Yes, that's a great way to put it.
Tom Scott:
So on one side is George Washington. On the other side... I mean technically also George Washington.
Caroline:
A​nd maybe some other people?
Tom Scott:
And maybe some other people.
Ella:
Oh, it's the... that mountain with the presidents.
Caroline:
I​s it Mount Rushmore?
Tom Scott:
It's Mount Rushmore, yes.
Caroline:
O​h, thank goodness.
Ella:
Geez,​ that's bad that I didn't remember that.
SFX:
(Tom Scott and Caroline laugh)
Caroline:
I​ was like, I said that, and then I was like, is George Washington on Mount Rushmore? I can't remember.
Ella:
It's George Washington and then a family portrait.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Tom Lum:
Right. And I know it's— They put the other Hokages on there. So that's who's on the rest. That's just a quick Naruto joke for the other nerds.
Caroline:
N​ice, fun. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You committed to it and I'm proud of you for that, yeah.
Tom Scott:
Yes, the other faces are Thomas Jefferson, Abraham Lincoln, and Theodore Roosevelt. But this was a US quarter that technically had George Washington on both sides.
Caroline, it is your question.
Caroline:
T​his question has been sent in by Dylan.
Why is there a large, elongated black oval painted on a McDonnell Douglas CF-18 fighter jet, and how is it inspired by a snake?
I'll say that again.
Tom Lum:
(laughs uproariously)
Tom Scott:
You're gonna have to say that again.
Ella:
And slower this time please.
Caroline:
W​hy is there a large, elongated black oval painted on a McDonnell Douglas CF-18 fighter jet, and how is it inspired by a snake?
Tom Scott:
In my head, this is one of those planes where they paint on the side the enemy aircraft they have shot down. And they shot down a UFO.
Caroline:
(wheezes)
Tom Lum:
And that's also what snakes do when they kill their prey.
Tom Scott:
Yes, yes.
Caroline:
O​f course.
Tom Lum:
It sublimates into their skin and it, yeah.
Tom Scott:
Oh, that would be creepy if that was a biological thing. I don't like that at all.
Caroline:
(guffaws) So yeah, you're both absolutely spot on. We can move on to—
Tom Lum:
Alright, next question.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Tom Lum:
Very through!
SFX:
(Caroline and Tom Lum continue laughing)
Tom Lum:
That's a hack we should do now, is we should, whenever one of us gets the answer right, and be like, "Yep, perfectly fine."
Tom Scott:
Yep.
Caroline:
(laughs)
Ella:
Is that all out of your... the Tom systems?
Tom Scott:
Yeah, yeah. No, no, we're good. Carry on, carry on.
Ella:
Good,​ okay. (wheezes) This feels like a forced perspective kind of thing, is my immediate thought here. Like a, you know, when you see... an elongated oval from a certain perspective –
Tom Lum:
Oh my god, Ella, yeah.
Ella:
it'd look like a full circle or can look smaller depending on the angle you're looking at it from.
Tom Lum:
Great shout, yeah.
Ella:
And I assume a cobra, a cobra's head... is... the shape of that is probably, when you look at that from different angles, it looks like a different shape or size.
Tom Lum:
Caroline, please let this be right. Just let us live in this. It's so great.
Caroline:
(laughs heartily)
Tom Scott:
Like dazzle camouflage, like Navys used to paint ships with strange stripes and strange colours. Not as camouflage, but so that submarines couldn't get a good lock on how far away they were and just to confuse onlookers.
Tom Lum:
And also just like other biomimicry, I believe, inspired by zebras, if not very similar to...
Tom Scott:
Probably.
Ella:
Oh yeah.
Tom Lum:
To zebra movement, yeah.
Caroline:
A​nd you know what? That is very along the right sort of lines.
Tom Scott:
Oh, okay.
Caroline:
Y​eah.
Ella:
Very along the right sort of lines.
Tom Scott:
Also good use of the word biomimicry, Tom.
Caroline:
Y​eah, that was wonderful.
Tom Scott:
The mutual Tom appreciation society's gonna continue for a little while here.
Ella:
We did a topic on LLE about that recently. Check it out.
Tom Lum:
Yeah. Also, Caroline, you would make a wonderful teacher. If someone gives a wrong answer, and you say, "That's so fantastically similarly close to the right lines."
Caroline:
I​ love that.
Ella:
That'​s almost so nearly there! But just not? How along the right lines? Is this a biomimicry thing?
Caroline:
Y​es, it is a sort of biomimicry thing. Biomimicry thing, yeah.
Tom Lum:
Wow.
Ella:
Is it a cobra?
Caroline:
I​ actually don't know if there's a specific snake in mind.
Ella:
Oh, okay. So it's not about the head shape of a cobra then. That's the only—
Caroline:
O​oh?
Tom Scott:
Oh, that's a shame 'cause I just remembered Sidewinder missiles. And I was thinking, oh, that's a snake warfare connection. I didn't, no, it didn't. Also, you said this was a CF-18... It's not a military jet or is it a transport plane?
Caroline:
I​t's a military plane.
Tom Scott:
Military plane, okay. Are we talking big old tanker here, or are we talking fighter jet?
Caroline:
V​ery, yeah, fighter jet. Very, very... It's a McDonnell Douglas CF-18 fighter jet is the jet in question.
Ella:
Does it make it look like the plane's got a big hole in it?
SFX:
(group cracks up)
Caroline:
I​t doesn't make the plane look—
Tom Lum:
(howls off-mic)
Ella:
Look,​ I'm just trying anything.
Caroline:
I​t doesn't make the plane look like it has a big hole in it, but it does make the plane look like there's...
Tom Lum:
A snake.
Caroline:
(giggles deeply)
Tom Lum:
(wheezes)
Ella:
There​'s a snake in my plane.
Caroline:
A​gain, you're sort of along the right lines of trying to make it look like something.
Ella:
It doesn't look like a fighter jet. It looks like...
Caroline:
O​h no, it definitely still looks like a fighter jet.
Ella:
I mean, does it... I'm just trying to imagine if you're looking at a stretched out oval from, it's about— it is the forced perspective idea, right?
Tom Lum:
That's my thought.
Ella:
That the overlooks different sizes and shapes. No, okay.
Caroline:
I​t's not to do with forced perspective, no.
Tom Lum:
Oh.
Ella:
I really have no idea. Is it just one?
Caroline:
W​ell, so it is just one elongated oval.
Tom Lum:
Where is it?
Caroline:
I​t has got, I will say, so it's an elongated oval. It's got a single stripe across it as well that's the same colour as the rest of the plane. Tom, you just asked a really interesting question.
Tom Lum:
Where is it? Is it on the wings? Is it down the middle of it? On the top? On the tail maybe?
Tom Scott:
Does it look like... the backs of the engines? Fighter jets have—
Caroline:
N​o.
Tom Scott:
Oh, okay. Big holes on the back, I was thinking, so it looks like they're bigger or more open than they are.
Caroline:
I​t doesn't make it look like the engine, but what else could an elongated oval maybe look like? Especially thinking about where it's positioned again?
Tom Lum:
Oh, 'cause it looks like a missile?
Caroline:
N​o.
Tom Scott:
A window?
Caroline:
O​h, a window? A window to where?
Tom Lum:
The soul.
Ella:
The soul.
SFX:
(guests laugh increasingly)
Ella:
Dammi​t.
Tom Lum:
We've been doing this podcast together for three years, baby!
Tom Scott:
(laughs along)
Ella:
To the cockpit.
Caroline:
Y​eah.
Ella:
Oh, it's on the back of the plane, and it makes— you can't tell if it's going backwards or forward.
Tom Scott:
Oh my gosh.
Tom Lum:
Oh my god, Ella!
Caroline:
I​t's not if you can tell if it's going backwards or forwards.
Ella:
It's like where snakes have say fake eyes, right, sometimes, or...
Caroline:
I​t's very, very closely linked to snakes' markings and where their head is specifically. So, do you wanna finish that thought?
Tom Lum:
Yeah, Ella.
Ella:
That was the whole thought that snakes have eye— they have eye-looking markings sometimes that mean you can't really tell where its head is, but...
Caroline:
Y​eah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Ella:
But if you can't— If these are windows, and it's supposed to make it look like the cockpit, then I assume you just can't tell where the front of the plane is.
Caroline:
I​t's not necessarily where the front of the plane is. 'Cause obviously the plane isn't symmetrical going forward.
Ella:
Oh yeah, of course.
Caroline:
Y​ou know.
Tom Lum:
Could it be top and bottom so you can't tell if it's right side up or upside down?
Ella:
Ohh!
Tom Scott:
Oh, wow.
Ella:
Yeah,​ that makes sense.
Tom Lum:
Fascinating.
Caroline:
T​hat's exactly right, yes.
The McDonnell Douglas CF-18 fighter jet has this elongated oval painted on the underside of it. So that if you are somebody else in another plane looking at it, you can't tell if that's the cockpit or if it's the other side is the cockpit. And therefore it's much harder to figure out which direction –
Tom Lum:
That's cool.
Caroline:
â​€“ the plane is going to go in, or how the pilot's gonna fly it basically.
Ella:
I feel like I'd be able to tell.
Caroline:
S​o, Ella, you talked about snakes. I will talk about one specific snake that is here as an example. So yeah, some snakes do use this as a sort of camouflage confusion tactic. There is the thick-tailed sea snake, for example, that has a set of markings on their tail, or it has the same markings on their tail as their head. So it basically makes it harder to tell which direction the snake's gonna go.
Tom Scott:
Next one's from me folks. Good luck.
While roadworks took place on the A6 in Derbyshire, England, why did someone erect a sign saying "Mice Very Happy"?
I'll say that again.
While roadworks took place on the A6 in Derbyshire, England, why did someone erect a sign saying "Mice Very Happy"?
Caroline:
O​bviously because the mice were happy. Duh. Come on. This isn't that...
Ella:
Mice very happy? So either this is some kind of weird code for something else, or the mice literally are happy. So...
Caroline:
Y​eah.
Ella:
Let's​ run with one of those.
Caroline:
L​et's pick one and run with it.
Tom Lum:
I was gonna say this as a joke, to be like, this is a like, "Road work ahead? I sure hope it does" thing. But I'm starting to think it might—
Ella:
I could not stop thinking "Road work ahead? I sure hope it does" the whole time.
Tom Lum:
Yeah. I think it could be a wordplay thing like that. That's my concern is it might actually be.
Tom Scott:
So the guesses between you are: weird code, the mice are literally happy, or wordplay thing. I'll tell you, it's one of those.
Caroline:
H​ey!
Tom Lum:
Okay, so cheese.
SFX:
(others giggling)
Tom Lum:
Would make them genuinely happy.
Ella:
Does it matter what kind of roadworks are happening?
Tom Scott:
Yes. The layout of the road was being altered.
Caroline:
W​as it a warning that people might be upsetting the mice through the roadworks, and they needed reassurance that actually they are happy about it?
Ella:
Don't​ worry, they're fine.
Caroline:
T​hey're okay. It's fine.
Tom Lum:
Guys, this— total shot in the dark, but if it is, it's true, it's amazing. If it's not, it's a great plug for our show. 'Cause we did a topic, Caroline did— briefly mentioned about how... mice enjoy driving cars.
Caroline:
I​ think that was rats enjoy –
Tom Lum:
Rats.
Caroline:
â​€“ driving cars, which they do. It is scientifically proven actually.
Tom Lum:
And so part of me was wondering, is this not a real road? Is this a road for mice who are driving cars? And it says "Mice Very Happy" because they are happy, enjoying driving their mouse cars?
Tom Scott:
This was the A6 in Derbyshire, a human-sized, human-used road.
Caroline:
O​kay. Mice can use it though.
Tom Scott:
However, I will clue you in that of the three options, Tom, you are very much closer. The sign was next to a more official road sign.
Ella:
Is it like half a word each, and there's three words on one sign, and you get... and then when you attach, when you put the two signs together, it makes three full words. Or it makes a— or like a sentence that... Something, mice, something, very, something, happy, or the other way around.
Tom Lum:
Like a "Don't Dead Open Inside" situation.
Ella:
Yes.
Caroline:
M​m.
Tom Scott:
Not quite. It was two separate signs. But you're starting to think the right way here.
Caroline:
I​s this an unofficial sign then?
Tom Scott:
Oh, yes. Oh, yes.
Caroline:
O​kay, cool.
Tom Lum:
(guffaws)
Caroline:
S​o is there a sign nearby ...about mice? Or that could be read as the word mice being in there?
Tom Lum:
Part of me was like, is this like a deer crossing sign? Is this, were there actually natural— Were there wild mice there? And this is sort of like a...
Ella:
Is it something to do with cat's eyes?
Tom Scott:
Keep going, Ella.
Caroline:
O​oh.
Tom Lum:
With what? I'm sorry, what?
Tom Scott:
Tom won't know what those are.
Ella:
Oh, they're... They're little reflective things on the road. They, when the light shines in, it shines back out, like as in a cat's eye. We have them.
Tom Lum:
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Tom Scott:
The little road reflective markers that you see as you go down the...
Tom Lum:
Retro reflectors.
Tom Scott:
The term for that in quite a few countries is cat's eyes.
Ella:
Cat's​ eyes down. Cat's eyes broken. Cat's eyes.
Caroline:
C​at's eyes removed.
Ella:
Remov​ed.
Tom Scott:
Ella, you set it up. Caroline, you knocked it home. The first sign says "Cat's Eyes Removed" as a warning to motorists.
Tom Lum:
(laughs uproariously)
Caroline:
N​ice. (laughs)
Tom Scott:
And just behind it –
Tom Lum:
Oh man.
Tom Scott:
someone put up a sign that said "Mice Very Happy".
Caroline:
(laughs heartily)
Tom Lum:
That's –
Ella:
– Nice.
Caroline:
T​hat's cute. I like that. (laughs)
Tom Lum:
Ohh! I'll say, can I say a quick plug? And if you want to learn about the other reason mice were happy driving cars, you can listen to our holiday episode of Let's Learn Everything.
Caroline:
W​ow. Wow.
Ella:
Too much plugging this episode.
Tom Lum:
Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry.
Ella:
No, never enough.
Tom Scott:
Tom Lum, over to you.
Tom Lum:
Wonderful. This question has been sent in by Chris Richards.
Jess was so frustrated with defeating a video game boss – a wily, old special forces sniper called 'The End' – that she rage quit. When she turned her console back on two weeks later, Jess was no longer frustrated. Why?
I'll read that again.
Jess was so frustrated with defeating a video game boss – a wily, old special forces sniper called 'The End' – that she rage quit. When she turned her console back on two weeks later, Jess was no longer frustrated. Why?
Ella:
She'd​ gotten a lot of rest and recuperation in the time between—
Caroline:
D​rank some water, you know?
Tom Scott:
Yeah.
Caroline:
Y​eah.
Tom Lum:
That's it, guys. This... David sent this one in just as a reminder, everyone, to drink your water, go walk outside a little bit. Here's from us, the Lateral.
Caroline:
T​hat's a good joke. I like this.
Is it something to do with the video game mechanic is... having patience and waiting or something like that?
Tom Lum:
I don't think it's patience and waiting, but I think you are very close thinking about... sort of game mechanics. And I'll say no more.
Caroline:
I​nteresting.
Ella:
The boss. The boss is a sniper, you said?
Tom Lum:
Yes.
Ella:
Can we know more about the style of boss battle this is? Is it like a traditional boss battle, or is it like you're looking for someone?
Tom Lum:
You are very spot on that it's not a traditional boss battle. This isn't like a big enemy health bar and you're whacking away at him. This is definitely an atypical boss battle from a game.
Ella:
And can I just confirm also that she turned the console off? She didn't leave it running in the background?
Tom Lum:
Correct.
Tom Scott:
I remember reading an article somewhere about a game where there's an alternate ending. The initial setup is you are left in a room, and someone says, "I'll be back in 10 minutes." And...
Ella:
Yes!
Tom Scott:
Obviously every player immediately leaves and goes exploring, but should you stay there for 10 minutes, he comes back.
Tom Lum:
That's Far Cry.
Tom Scott:
Okay.
Ella:
Yeah,​ yeah, yeah.
Tom Lum:
Yes, I know what you're thinking of. But that's... I think you're thinking in a similar vein, to a similar—
Ella:
The fact that she turned the console off tells me the only thing that could have changed would be the console time in between her... you know, playing the two weeks. So the time passing had something to do with how you defeat the boss.
Tom Lum:
Good thinking.
Ella:
He died of starvation.
SFX:
(guessers laughing)
Ella:
Waiti​ng.
Tom Scott:
That is just rude from the game developers though, isn't it? I really wanna finish this game. Unlucky, you gotta wait two weeks.
Caroline:
Y​eah. (laughs) Do you say what console it is, and is that relevant at all?
Tom Lum:
Not super relevant. I believe it was the PS2. I could be wrong. It's around that era. And it's a well-known video game.
Tom Scott:
Oh, this is a console though, not a— not like a PC game, okay.
Tom Lum:
Yes, I believe so. Or at least it was most popular on the consoles. And this is, yeah, this is a relatively well-known game. This isn't... But boy, is it a strange one.
Ella:
Is it that you have to tr— you have to find the boss, right? You have to travel to the boss on public transport or something. Or like a...
Caroline:
O​h!
Ella:
Andâ€â€‹” or you're on a boat. You have to wait for the boat to reach...
Tom Lum:
To reach the...
Ella:
The other side.
Tom Lum:
You guys are— I mean— You guys are thinking, and also all game designers, take notes on these. These are great ideas.
Caroline:
(chuckles)
Tom Lum:
You're right that this boss battle is sort of like, involves... finding the opponent. So I think it's in a forest or something.
And so I'll describe the... who the opponent is one last time, and maybe that will give you the final hint you need.
So this is a... The boss is named 'The End', and they are described here as a wily, old special forces sniper.
Caroline:
H​uh.
Tom Lum:
I'll say one of those words in there is very helpful.
Ella:
Wily.​ End. Old, sniper. Special Forces.
Tom Lum:
You said one of them. You said the one in your list. One somewhere in there, you said it.
Ella:
I mean, the fact that his name's 'The End' seems like it could be. You just have to wait for the end of the game.
Tom Lum:
I will say, Caroline, you did say patience earlier. And I think that that... I think that that is, as I'm thinking about it more, is pretty true to what is happening here.
Caroline:
O​oh.
Tom Lum:
In terms of, you can... The player can use patience to "defeat" this boss.
Tom Scott:
Did she accidentally do the right thing by turning the console off? Again, something that is in the back of my head somewhere is a video game where... you had to reset the game to continue. It used some weird hack.
Ella:
There​'s a Zelda puzzle, that when you... You have to close the DS to solve it. It has to be pressed together, and people would not figure out until they rage shut it.
Caroline:
O​h, fun!
Ella:
And opened it up, and it had solved it.
Tom Scott:
Is it some weird hack like that, where they're using... Is it outside what people would expect to be the design of the game? You expect—
Tom Lum:
Absolutely. This is really weird.
Tom Scott:
Right. You expect your only interaction with the game to be through the controller. And within the world.
Tom Lum:
Yes.
Tom Scott:
This is something that breaks out of the world of the game.
Tom Lum:
And this game series has done a few of these actually before, but, yeah. I will say combined with Caroline's patience and Ella saying that the person died of starvation, I'll say that the— by the end of the two weeks, the boss is dead.
Ella:
He's old. 'Cause of age?
Tom Lum:
(points silently)
Tom Scott:
No!
Ella:
No way!
Caroline:
W​hat?
Tom Scott:
No!
Ella:
It was so close.
Tom Lum:
So this is from Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater, I believe.
And the premise of this boss is he is a very, very old special forces sniper. And his last dying wish is, he wants to fight Snake.
Tom Scott:
The—
Tom Lum:
And so—
Tom Scott:
The main character?
Tom Lum:
The protagonist of the game, yeah. And so you— And, to Tom's point, there are multiple ways to do this. You can take him on. But one of the ways that they decided you could defeat this boss is to turn the game off, wait... either wait two weeks or set your game's calendar two weeks ahead and come back in.
Caroline:
N​ice.
Tom Lum:
And then what happens is that... there's a little cinematic that plays where Snake finds him, and he's like there, and he goes, he's like, "Put your weapon down!" And then he pokes him, and then he just falls over.
Caroline:
(gasps)
SFX:
(others laughing)
Tom Lum:
And then there's a really— there's a kind of interesting moment where Snake, you know, goes on comms, and then they're like, "Good job, Snake." And he goes, "I feel like I kind of let him down." He was like, "That was his last wish, was to fight me. And I kind of chickened out." Like, "I disappointed him."
Ella:
It's quite dishonourable to do it that way.
Caroline:
Y​eah. (laughs)
Tom Lum:
Yeah. And some people have said that this was actually a very interesting, meaningful fight.
One bonus fact: in this fight originally, Hideo Kojima, who developed this, or who was one of the lead developers on this, wanted the game— the actual fight to take place over two weeks originally.
Tom Scott:
Wow.
Caroline:
W​hoa.
Tom Lum:
Because he was big into those sniper movies at the time where you know, you're waiting in a, you know, in a hill, and you reposition, and then you move around, and you just spend forever trying to take out one person. So this was actually much more merciful than what was originally going to happen.
Ella:
(snickers)
Caroline:
(giggles)
Tom Lum:
In the game Metal Gear Solid 3, a character called 'The End' is a legendary sniper, over 100 years old.
His dying wish is to fight Snake, the game's protagonist. The battle against him is difficult, but can be avoided altogether entirely if the player simply waits for more than one week of real time. And when the game is reloaded, the narrative reveals that The End has simply died of old age.
Tom Scott:
Which means we just have the question from the start of the show to deal with.
What everyday device has adjustments for swing speed and latch speed?
Anyone want to take a guess at that?
Tom Lum:
Everyday device? Is it an every person device or just an everyday device for some people?
Tom Scott:
You will see these regularly.
Ella:
I'm looking around. I'm looking around.
Tom Scott:
It's often poorly adjusted.
Tom Lum:
I love Ella's looking around like, cats, stolen Lateral sign letters.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Tom Scott:
Also clearly none of you have been watching Technology Connections lately. Alec was on recently, and he has done a whole video on these things.
Caroline:
O​h, no!
Tom Lum:
I have watched some. Air fryers? Um, uhh...!
SFX:
(both Toms laugh)
Tom Lum:
Don't you doubt me, Tom Scott!
Caroline:
Y​ou said these things are always poorly adjusted, and all I can think of—
Tom Scott:
Not always, but they often are.
Caroline:
O​ften. You said that these things are often poorly adjusted, and all I can think of is the clock on my oven forever being incorrect.
Tom Lum:
Ooh.
Caroline:
A​nd now that's all I've got in my head.
Ella:
The refrigerator door. That swings and latches.
Tom Scott:
Oh, that's... Now you're very close there. And you're right, this is something that swings and latches.
Tom Lum:
Oh my god. Oh...
Ella:
Oven door?
Tom Lum:
Screen doors? Like, outside doors? Microwave doors?
Tom Scott:
What kind of door will have a swing and latch speed that you can set?
Ella:
Toile​t. Toilet door?!
Caroline:
(laughs uproariously)
Ella:
What the hell did I just say that for?
Tom Lum:
That's been our show, folks! I'm Tom Lum!
SFX:
(group laughs uproariously)
Tom Lum:
You know?
Ella:
I'm sorry.
Tom Lum:
Don't forget to latch your toilets closed. Make sure no one gets in.
Ella:
God dammit. God dammit. Look, someone else try.
Caroline:
N​ailed it.
Tom Scott:
There's a particular thing that gets attached to doors, that some doors have that others don't.
Tom Lum:
Like an emergency escape door? Like a...
Ella:
They have those hinges at— up at the top.
Tom Scott:
Yes.
Ella:
I dunno what they are though. I've never actually...
Tom Scott:
You know what? That's— That is close enough. It is the sort of self-closing doors, the ones that automatically swing and latch shut.
Tom Lum:
Oh, swing and...
Tom Scott:
Yes.
Caroline:
O​h!
Ella:
Fine.
Caroline:
O​h, fair enough.
Tom Scott:
This is a door closer, one of those automatic hinge things that's on the top of a door in a hotel or something like that, where it swings slowly shut, and then, clunk, latches at the end. That has a swing speed and a latch speed.
Tom Lum:
I have seen those everywhere, yeah.
Tom Scott:
And if there are any of those doors that don't close properly or swing so fast, they just hit people in the face, the swing speed and latch speed on those doors is badly controlled.
Tom Lum:
And you know what has one of those also? My toilet. So next time, think about that, Tom Scott.
Ella:
You can get automatic closing for toilets.
Tom Scott:
You can, you can.
Thank you very much to all three of our players. This is always gonna be chaotic.
Tom Lum, where are y'all from?
Tom Lum:
The internet.
Oh, a podcast called Let's Learn Everything with the three of us.
It's a wonderful show. We've talked about some topics that we've mentioned today.
Tom Scott:
Ella, where can you find it?
Ella:
LetsL​earnEverything.com and all socials with LetsLearnEverythingP​od.
Tom Scott:
And Caroline, what sort of topics?
Caroline:
W​e have talked about everything from making super heavy elements to what women's work is, to guitar tabs, to near earth objects. It can be literally anything.
Tom Scott:
And if you wanna know more about this show, you can do that at lateralcast.com, where you can also send in your own ideas for questions. We are at @lateralcast basically everywhere, and there are regular video highlights at youtube.com/lateralc​ast.
Thank you very much to Caroline Roper.
Caroline:
T​hank you.
Tom Scott:
Ella Hubber.
Ella:
Ka-ch​ow!
Tom Scott:
Tom Lum!
Tom Lum:
Wa-hoo!
Tom Scott:
I've been Tom Scott, and that's been Lateral.
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