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Episode 132: Yacht, Mug, Chair, Kite
Published 18th April, 2025
Nicholas Johnson, Dani Siller and Bill Sunderland face questions about odd opposites, communication collabs and stealthy slaps.
HOST: Tom Scott. QUESTION PRODUCER: David Bodycombe. EDITED BY: Julie Hassett at The Podcast Studios, Dublin. MUSIC: Karl-Ola Kjellholm ('Private Detective'/'Agrumes', courtesy of epidemicsound.com). ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS: Ólafur Waage, Lois, Kelly, Timothy Green. FORMAT: Pad 26 Limited/Labyrinth Games Ltd. EXECUTIVE PRODUCERS: David Bodycombe and Tom Scott.
Transcription by Caption+
Tom:
When is burning something the opposite of ripping it?
The answer to that at the end of the show. My name's Tom Scott, and this is Lateral.
On today's show, we welcome back three people who've all been on the show before. And it's always great to know that we have three people here who will bounce off each other.
Why they're all wearing Zorb balls, I have no idea, but we start today with Bill Sunderland from Escape This Podcast. How you doin'?
Bill:
I'm strapped in. I'm ready to bounce.
Tom:
(laughing)
Bill:
I'm knockin' 'em both off this mountaintop.
Tom:
I didn't realise this was gonna be a versus battle of Zorb balls here.
Bill:
Oh, it's like a Mario Party minigame. You guys are goin' down. I'm makin' ten coins.
Tom:
Last time we were here, I think you were working on DLC for the video game?
Bill:
Yes.
Tom:
How's thing's going?
Bill:
Oh, it's going great. The DLC – again, I'm not sure in the context of recording this versus releasing of that, I'm not sure if it's yet available, but when it is, I think people are gonna love it. If you love mafia movies and noir movies and solving murders, and tracking down weird people...
Tom:
(laughs)
Bill:
you're gonna really enjoy The Sins of New Wells, which is the name of the DLC, for Rise Of The Golden Idol.
Tom:
Also presumably if you enjoy puzzle games.
Bill:
And if you enjoy puzzle games and playin' and havin' fun, then I suppose you'll like it as well.
Tom:
Also joining us today back on the show, the other half of Escape This Podcast, Dani Siller. Welcome back.
Dani:
I'm going to be the Luigi of this mini game where I just get to sit back, not move, and the others will all fall off on their own.
Bill:
That sounds right.
Tom:
In a Mario sense, or in assassinating CEOs sense?
Dani:
Interesting, interesting. Topical.
Tom:
Allegedly! Allegedly assassinating CEO— I mean, that was topical when we recorded this. It's gonna be a few months.
Tell me about Escape This Podcast. What are you working on right now that's gonna be out by the time this airs?
Dani:
We are just power housing our way through a 2025 season, writing audio escape rooms, bringing even cooler people than we've ever had before on. Like, forget all of the other guests. I don't even remember their names anymore.
Tom:
No, no, some—
Dani:
This year, oh boy!
Tom:
Yeah, no. Some Tom guy. Can't remember the details.
Dani:
No, I think it was— I don't know. I think his name was Scott.
Bill:
Oh, yeah. Tom Lum we had on the show. That's right.
Tom:
Yeah, yeah, you did. There we go.
Very best of luck to both you and to Bill.
Our third guest today returning to the show, author, magician, podcaster, Nicholas J. Johnson. Welcome back.
Nicholas:
I'm— Thank you so much for having me. If this is a game of Mario Party, I–I have Joy-Con drift. I am barely hanging on here against you guys.
SFX:
(others laughing)
Tom:
Oh, I do not understand that reference.
SFX:
(guests giggling)
Nicholas:
I'm not in a Zorb ball. This is just what my body looks like.
Dani:
(cackles)
Tom:
(laughs) Oh, no! Oh, no!
Nicholas:
But, um–
Bill:
I didn't think you'd mention it, Tom. It was rather rude.
Nicholas:
I'll put a shirt on. I'm sorry.
SFX:
(Tom and Nicholas laugh)
Tom:
Last time we talked about the podcasting, Nicholas. Tell me about the author part of it. What are you got out at the minute that the audience would like?
Nicholas:
Yes, I've got two crime novels, and I've also got— I sat down to write my autobiography but I've decided to write it as a kids' book so my kids could read it and understand why I am the way that I am. And I failed so miserably in writing my autobiography that the end result, Tricky Nick, was nominated for an award for speculative fiction.
SFX:
(others laugh uproariously)
Nicholas:
I have a nomination for science fiction award. Yeah.
Tom:
Alright, Zorb balls at the ready, then. Let's get the show rolling because as always we've rounded up interesting stories in every sphere of knowledge from around the globe.
Let's give question one a whirl.
Bill:
(chuckles)
Tom:
Thank you to Kelly for this question.
When the Beatles went to perform in Japan in 1966, the police officer in charge of security made a change that affected the entire force. What was it?
I'll say that again.
When the Beatles went to perform in Japan in 1966, the police officer in charge of security made a change that affected the entire force. What was it?
Bill:
I know the pun here. Anybody who knows about... weird things that Japanese people like to do, they will often as kids take, like, rhinoceros beetles and they'll have them fight each other. It's— They'll collect the beetles and they'll be like, "Oh, let's get 'em to fight," and those were the beetles that were performing in Japan. It was just a set of— just a child had found a couple of beetles.
And then the Japanese police made it illegal to fight beetles.
I've solved it, Tom. I should have said that I already knew. I should have taken myself out of that one.
Nicholas:
Yeah, that was... That must be embarrassing for you, Tom, to have such an easy question.
Bill:
Yeah, sorry, Tom. Ruined your show.
Tom:
Yeah, alas, the question is, "When The Beatles went to perform," not "some beetles."
Bill:
Oh, of course.
Tom:
It is the Beatles, yeah.
Dani:
Hum, it's one of those situations where you know how people say when you're giving CPR, you do it to the tune of "Stayin' Alive" or "Another One Bites the Dust". There's also a Beatles song that's even better than all of those. And Japan picked up on it. That one guy.
Tom:
Now, I'm sort of— (exhales sharply) I'm rubbing my face here because... You're so far away. You're massively, massively far away.
Bill:
I'm just embarrassed. I'm just embarrassed. Rethinking the guest list.
Tom:
It's just there is a weird link that is possible, – and I will explain it later – between CPR and making that more likely to happen for bystanders and things like that and this question and what's going on here.
Bill:
Oh, how funny.
Dani:
Well...
Nicholas:
(gasps) I think I might know...
Tom:
Oh?
Dani:
A knowing gasp?
Nicholas:
...what it is.
Tom:
If that's the clue that solves it for you, go for it.
Nicholas:
Okay. So the only thing I know about the Japanese police – and this might be wrong – is that they wear gloves. That's the thing that I know about Ja— They wear white gloves.
Tom:
They do.
Bill:
I was gonna say the same thing. They're glove lovers.
Tom:
They do.
Nicholas:
Were the white gloves introduced 'cause there were so many people and people needed C— somebody needed CPR and they—someone was like, "Where's the police?" And there's all these hands in the air, and they couldn't figure out where the police were.
So they made them wear white gloves so that you can spot police 'cause they're the ones wearing the white gloves?
Tom:
You have identified the gloves. That is the reason.
But that's not quite the connection I had to CPR, which has apparently become a major clue out of nowhere.
Bill:
(snickers)
Tom:
But you are right. The change was gloves. Why?
Bill:
Yeah, 'cause it is a thing that, yeah, the Japanese police always have the gloves. I always— I thought it was about— like you said. Like directing traffic, or being— just to make their hands super noticeable. Like, "Look at my hands!"
Nicholas:
Yeah. Like a mime.
Bill:
Like a magician would wear gloves.
Nicholas:
A magician, oh, yeah. I should have said magician. The thing that I am, yeah.
SFX:
(Bill and Tom laugh)
Nicholas:
Forest in the trees situation there.
Tom:
What other reasons might there be to wear gloves?
Bill:
(exhales) Could it be about touching people?
Tom:
Mm.
Dani:
Yeah, everything else is filthy.
Nicholas:
Wearing white gloves, I worked briefly in a library in a collection of rare magic artifacts, and...
Tom:
Sorry, sorry, when you say magic artifacts...
Dani:
(laughs) How cool— How impressed should we be?
Tom:
Is that like— it's like fantasy, weird magic artifacts, or magic the skill artifacts? Because that's a very different story happening there.
Nicholas:
Oh, I see, yeah. Anyway, there was this cast and it opened and this spirit came out and there was a whole thing. No, it was—
Dani:
Thank you, thank you.
Tom:
Thank you, yeah.
Nicholas:
(laughs) Yes. Have you seen Ghostbusters?
No, like, magic props, and we— but we were basically like— and it was—we only wore the white gloves when we were handling metal and anything else they said, "No, no, don't wear white— don't wear the white gloves," because they're just really hard to do things with.
And in fact, magicians sometimes will wear white gloves like they used to, anyway, for— in order for the— make the props stand out against your hand. You know, if you're holding a coin on a white, you know, white—or a playing card in a white glove, it's easier to make it stand out, but it's actually much harder to hold onto objects and to use it.
Tom:
A lot of archives will insist that people visiting to look at documents don't wear gloves. They just—you just must wash your hands and wear no lotion because you are more likely to damage something because you haven't got the touch sensitivity while you're wearing the glove.
Dani:
Hmm.
Bill:
There's a good Mice and Men reference in there somewhere about lotion inside gloves, but I can't remember the name of the character.
Tom:
You're talking about touching people.
Dani:
Aren't we always?
Tom:
Follow that.
Bill:
Is there a gender-based thing at all? Like...
Tom:
Yes.
Bill:
You're—as a man, you shouldn't touch a woman, but if you wear white—
Dani:
There would be a lot of teen girls at Beatles concerts.
Tom:
That's the connection.
Dani:
Ohh. Don't wanna be creeps.
Bill:
We're gonna have to manhandle a lot of teen girls at this thing.
SFX:
(Dani and Tom chuckle)
Bill:
I'm sorry, it's just gonna happen. You're gonna have to wear gloves. They're—
Tom:
That's— (laughs) That's basically it. Yes!
Bill:
Fair enough!
Tom:
Yeah, the— the police knew they would be dealing with crowds of young women. And the officer in charge, Hideo Yamada, decided that, for propriety, they would put on white gloves to deal with this.
Nicholas:
I thought it was because teenage girls are gross. I thought—
Bill:
They're so slippery!
Tom:
(laughs) That too.
Nicholas:
I thought it was 'cause they're weird and sweaty and gross and if you touch them you'll just—stuff will come off on you and you'll go home
Bill:
You don't want that.
Nicholas:
smelling of—yeah. Deodorant and spearmint gum.
Tom:
And then you absolutely can't look through the archive documents.
Bill:
Yeah.
Nicholas:
That's right. Yep.
Tom:
Why did I say earlier that there was a connection to CPR that was a lot closer than you might think?
Bill:
You really gotta touch someone if you're doing CPR.
Tom:
Mhm.
Nicholas:
Ooh! Okay. Was there somebody who passed out, needed CPR, but the... maybe police didn't want— no one wanted to give her CPR because they–because of the impropriety of touching a young teenage girl and so she died?
Dani:
There's definitely stories like that that go around online. I haven't looked into the veracity of them, but... some suggestions that women are given CPR less because of awkwardness.
Tom:
Yeah. Women are more likely to die from a heart attack if they have one, because people are less likely to perform CPR on them because the first instruction is "Remove clothing". And you have to push hard, and all the CPR dummies are male.
Bill:
Mm.
Tom:
So all the training is on men, and yeah. Women are more likely to die because a bystander is less likely to go, "Is it okay to do this?"
So that was the connection.
The white gloves on Japanese police officers are there because in 1966 they would have to crowd control a lot of young women.
Dani, it is over to you for the next question.
Dani:
Alright, this one's exciting.
The visual artist Russel Weekes released a simple A5-sized pamphlet. It was stapled twice, once in each direction, right through the centre of the cover. Its title was "A Study into the Effects of..." what?
And one more time.
The visual artist Russell Weekes released a simple A5-sized pamphlet. It was stapled twice, once in each direction, right through the centre of the cover. Its title was, "A Study Into the Effects of..." what?
Tom:
So, I will translate for the folks who don't use A paper sizes.
Dani:
Oh, good idea.
Tom:
That is, like, half a standard page. It's your standard pamphlet size, what... A sort of zine that'd get handed out somewhere.
Bill:
I feel like this is one where a huge part of it is gonna come into having the right mental picture for this description. It's stapled twice in the centre both directions. Like a cross? It makes a cross?
Nicholas:
Yeah, that's what I'm imagining. Yeah, yeah.
Dani:
So I will tell you exactly what they mean by this "once on each side" because that will impact things. So what it means is basically you got the paper in front of you, you put the stapler against it, you staple down, lift the stapler up, flip the paper over, and then staple on the other side of the paper.
Tom:
Oh, okay. So two staples going in opposite directions. That's the axis we're on.
Bill:
Oh, I see. There's a staple at the front, staple at the back.
Dani:
In some configuration, yes.
Nicholas:
Could I check? Does that mean that you can't open the book? Like, it's now stapled shut? Or is it just through the cover?
Tom:
Yeah, I mean, I guess you can fold it down.
Dani:
Actually, you've raised an interesting point of, "This would make it kinda difficult to open." So you can look at it very easily. The staples made it all the way through to the front cover. Or one of them was through the front cover. The one that went through the back came all the way to the front cover.
Bill:
So it's like a... almost like a locked pamphlet. Like, "Here you go."
Dani:
A little bit.
Tom:
Yeah, it's not like it's just stapled weirdly at one end. One of those at the top, one of those at the bottom so basically the pages are all just completely locked together.
Dani:
Yeah, you are correct. It is not that one of the staples is at the bottom and one is at the top, though. They are not that far away from each other.
Bill:
Sort of through the centre, I guess.
Tom:
Okay. Hmm.
Bill:
Now, this is nothing, but I did picture, if you're the end of one staple right above another staple it kind of looks like an angry face emoji.
Dani:
(gasps faintly)
Nicholas:
Yeah.
Bill:
Of the two little curved parts being eyes and then the bar of the other staple— is it–Dani's–wait, hold on! Dani's looking at me like this isn't nothing. Dani has a look on her face that's the opposite of an angry emoji.
Tom:
I was gonna say that it's just like a study in frustration. That it's just— it's just designed to irritate the reader, but— and then you said, "angry face emoji." I'm like, "Wait, is this actually a study in frustration? It's just meant to be a little face?"
Dani:
Yes and no. It's not frustration. It is absolutely a little face.
Bill:
(giggles)
Tom:
Oh, well done, Bill!
Nicholas:
Is it a study in pareidolia?
Dani:
A study into the effects of pareidolia is exactly what it is.
Bill:
Oh, fantastic.
Tom:
Nicholas!
Dani:
Can you tell people what that means?
Nicholas:
Pareidolia is when you see faces appearing in... anywhere, literally. Anywhere where a face should not be. And so it's, you know, it's when you look at the top of a cigarette lighter and you see a little face, but it's also when people see the Virgin Mary in a cheese toasty or something in clouds and that type of thing.
Dani:
Most commonly I'd say in power point sockets. Like, wall sockets.
Bill:
They're all little faces.
Dani:
They're all horrified faces. What's happening to them?
Bill:
And to keep the Beatles theme going, that is the subject of the song, "I've Just Seen a Face."
SFX:
(group laughing)
Nicholas:
I'm gonna steal that.
Tom:
(laughs) Dani, your questions keep falling so quickly on these episodes.
Dani:
I'm so proud of you all.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Dani:
So these staples have been punched through the paper so that one of them looks like eyes, one looks like a mouth, and it is a study into the effects of pareidolia – seeing faces and things like that where there technically aren't any.
Tom:
Thank you to Timothy Green for this next question.
In 1974, why did psychologist Lars van der Leith, a sign language researcher at the University of Copenhagen, ask for a demonstration from Valerie Sutton, an American dancer training with the Royal Danish Ballet?
I'll say that again.
In 1974,why did psychologist Lars van der Leith, a sign language researcher at the University of Copenhagen, ask for a demonstration from Valerie Sutton, an American dancer training with the Royal Danish Ballet?
Nicholas:
Was he writing the official book of sign language, and wanted her to use her... to basically use her body to be the official expression of those signs?
Dani:
It does feel like we'd want to find some conne– it feels like there's an automatic connection between sign language and human who moves their body in certain positions for a living.
Nicholas:
Yeah.
Bill:
My brain— My first thing is one of these sort of... sign language facts that I've found interesting. And by fact, I mean... Let's call it a factoid. I don't know. Something close to—
Tom:
A thing you read on the internet.
Bill:
Yeah, a thing. A thing that exists somewhere that could have been a lie. But people talk about this a lot that sign language, some people will often think about as being just, like, "Well, you're just signing in English." But they're not. They're signing in— it's like, sign language is its own language, rather than just the same as English if you're speaking English or the same as French if you're speaking French.
Nicholas:
Mm.
Bill:
But apparently one of those things about that difference is that British sign language and American sign language are actually from whole different strains of sign language and in actual fact:
American Sign Language is more interchangeable with Chinese sign language 'cause they both come from the French school of sign language. So there's actually more kind of mutual understanding between American and Chinese signers than there is between American and British. In at least some cases.
So did this Danish person need an American to dance sign language at a Chinese person to translate for them?
SFX:
(group laughing)
Bill:
Is that how it applies?
Nicholas:
There's a psychologist, right?
Tom:
(laughs) It's not, but I love how far that got.
My favourite thing about sign language or at least some sign languages is how you set a scene. So, in English, you would use pronouns. You would use he, she, they, it, whatever. In sign language, you basically set a scene in physical 3D space. So you sign someone's name or the object thing, and then you can place it, and then you can just kind of point to it and refer to it and move it around.
Bill:
That's so cool.
Tom:
It's amazing. It's a thing that spoken language absolutely cannot do.
It is unfortunately... really not that related to the question other than the words "sign language."
Dani:
Which is frustrating 'cause you made it sound so relevant.
Bill:
And so cool!
Tom:
I know, I know. You have correctly identified that there is a connection between sign language and dancing. They are both things that involve moving your body.
Bill:
Yeah, and Nicholas, you were just saying, it's a psychologist, right? Or a psychi—someone who studies—
Tom:
Psychologist. Someone who studies the brain, yes.
Bill:
Would that include sort of brain scans? You know how people do a lot of that, like, what of your brain activate during certain activities?
Nicholas:
Yeah, that'd be more likely to be a neuroscientist.
Dani:
This was a while ago. Were we in brain scan territory back—
Tom:
No, 1974, no. This is someone who is specifically researching sign language.
Bill:
Okay, okay.
Nicholas:
And if they're researching,
Bill:
so they're not writing things or making any... they're trying to measure some sort of measurable effect on the world, right?
Tom:
Mm. I'm not going to answer the very specific question that's in there, Nicholas.
Nicholas:
(laughs)
Tom:
You—you—mm.
Nicholas:
Dammit.
Tom:
Certainly, van der Leith, the sign language researcher was hopefully preparing papers and research notes and all sorts of things.
Dani:
We didn't—we didn't call into question with this, and I have no idea of this. This ballet dancer, was she a sign language user herself?
Tom:
No, she wasn't. But university researchers saw a news report about something she was doing.
Bill:
I mean, is there some connection to... ballet in general that's trying to tell a story wordlessly through movement? Was he trying to be— Was it a— into the idea of whether or not people who spoke sign language were better at interpreting the meaning behind dance? 'Cause they're practiced at inferring meaning from movement?
Tom:
It was far more practical than that.
Dani:
Okay, get away from the arts, brain.
Nicholas:
Yeah, I was gonna go artsier.
Tom:
I would go less artsy on this.
Nicholas:
Oh, okay.
Bill:
She's a dancer. Doesn't pay well. She has a second job fixing printers. And he just needed to print the paper he was writing, so he called in the dancer.
Tom:
Um, mm.
Bill:
Ooh!
Dani:
Come on!
Bill:
(laughs heartily)
Tom:
No, but again, you're talking about the paper he was writing.
Bill:
He's writing the paper. It's the '70s. He's on a typewriter. He's typin' up a paper. And it gets jammed, and the little feet—
Tom:
(chuckles)
Bill:
When a typewriter jams, it looks like a ballerina's feet kicking together and getting stuck, and he thought, "I'll call the dancer!" And it was a really bad idea. It didn't help.
Nicholas:
You're onto something there, I think.
Bill:
I think this is it! Just keep going! Keep taking—I'll pass the ball!
Tom:
You've all clued in on the fact that this is a researcher writing papers. Think a bit more about that.
Nicholas:
So he specific— So she—he read in the paper that she can do something or had done something and then he asked her—
Tom:
Had invented something. Let's go with that.
Nicholas:
Had invented something, okay. And then she— he then asked her to demonstrate it. So whatever it was was probably useful— either useful for people with sign language or useful for him in his own kind of research for sign language. So it's something –
Tom:
Yes.
Nicholas:
��� that he could use to measure or to... to explore sign language.
Tom:
You've nailed everything about this apart from what the invention was. She'd come up with something... The researchers had seen it on the news and they were like, "We need that. Invite her over."
Bill:
My brai–I have to say this or my brain won't give up on it. It's not that, like... Big collection of metal pins that can take an impression of— so he could make a hand—make a sign and then put it in the thing and then he's got a solid impression, like, "I could just stamp that on the paper."
Tom:
That wouldn't work for ballet, and it wouldn't really work for sign language.
Bill:
I thought those were all just red herrings.
Tom:
You're bet— you're getting closer.
Nicholas:
Had she invented a way of... I mean, a language, I guess, for... describing the human body? So a way of describing different ways of positioning the human body that could then be used to also talk about sign language?
Tom:
Yes. Valerie Sutton created dance writing. And it is a way to systematically record dance moves and teach it to other people in 1974 when home video equipment and smartphones could not just show you choreography.
Bill:
That's fantastic.
Tom:
And so the sign language researchers were like, "Can we adapt that for sign language?" Invited her over. And they created Sutton SignWriting which is now the most widely-used system for writing down the body movements used in sign language.
Bill:
I have just Googled this and it, like– to me it looks almost like Wingdings. It's not like just writing stuff out or making notes. It's its own kind of notation that, like, abstract shapes of, like, "This moves this way," or, "This moves this way," or, like, angles or flags. It's really cool.
Nicholas:
I Googled it as well and I literally just got signs for the city of Sutton.
SFX:
(others laugh uproariously)
Tom:
But yes, this is Valerie Sutton's Sutton SignWriting which is now the most widely-used system for writing down the body movements used in sign language.
Which brings us to Bill's question. Whenever you're ready.
Bill:
This question has been sent in by Ólafur Waage.
Tom:
Oh, a Lateral contestant!
Bill:
A Lateral contestant. He can't get enough.
Tom:
(laughs)
Bill:
The phone app "S.M.T.H." was immediately banned from Apple's App Store and broke the phone of at least one reviewer. Yet, it has a decent 4.1 out of 5 rating on Google Play. The "S.M." Represents "Send Me." What does the "T.H." mean, and how do you play?
And I'll give it to you again.
The phone app "S.M.T.H." was immediately banned from Apple's App Store and broke the phone of at least one reviewer. Yet, it has a decent 4.1 out of 5 rating on Google Play. The "S.M." represents "Send Me." What does the "T.H." mean, and how do you play?
Tom:
I saw this news story. I gotta sit out of it.
Nicholas:
Yeah, I can nail this. It's "Send Me Top Hats." It's like a sort of service magicians use... where we basically, if you need a top hat, short notice, you just click a button and, you know, like a sort of Uber but for top hats.
Bill:
Mm, and then Apple was like, "Magic is the same as con artistry! Ah, we don't support that kind of business here!" This is my Apple voice!
Tom:
Yeah, yeah, Tim Apple.
Nicholas:
They went, "Hang on. These guys are bigger nerds than us."
Tom:
I just like the idea that that probably got pitched at the point after Uber came out when all the apps were going for, like, Uber for anything.
Uber for, like, fancy clothes and tailoring was probably pitched at some point as an app for rich people. Like, "I need an outfit for this tonight. Go." And someone turns up at your door with the correct s—
That must have been pitched. If not, someone's going to.
Dani:
Alright, so surely the only reasons things would get removed from the App Store is one, outrageously offensive; two, a big old scam; or three, breaking stuff as it seems like it broke at least one person's device. Someone broke a device. That's... interesting.
Nicholas:
I'm thinking of those... I mean, there's those devices, you know, like a USB, and you plug it into the side of your laptop and it bricks your laptop. Or someone else's. It's probably best not to put it in your own laptop. That kind of—
So it might be like an app that is specifically designed to kinda kill your phone, maybe for security purposes.
"Send Me To Hell."
Dani:
"Send Me Trojan Horses."
SFX:
(group laughing)
Bill:
Perfect!
Nicholas:
Yes, "Send Me Trojan Horses". There you go.
Bill:
Ah, that is great. But I don't think anybody would download that, surely.
Dani:
I dunno. Some of the Greeks are really big fans.
Nicholas:
Yeah.
Tom:
A friend once sent me a file that was "Not a virus.txt."
Bill:
(laughs)
Tom:
And I'm like, "It's a text file. It cannot contain a virus. They're just being a jerk." And I'm like, "I'm not— I'm not opening it. I don't—I don't believe you."
Dani:
It was very smart. It was the Nota Virus.
Tom:
Yeah, yeah(!) It just very clearly— and he's like, "It clearly said it wasn't a virus!" I'm like, "I'm not. I'm not, mate. I'm just..."
Dani:
(laughs)
Bill:
It's like that guy's "I'm not a terrorist" shirt from last episode.
Tom:
Yes, yes!
Nicholas:
(laughs)
Bill:
It is not "Send Me Trojan Horses". We can cross that off your list of T-Hs.
Dani:
Well, the phrase was, "How do you play?" So it's a game, this app, apparently.
Bill:
Yes, yeah, it is a game. You do play it.
Nicholas:
Was it something— like, I remember— this is dating me a little bit but when CD-ROMs first came in, this—well, after the— when you had the little cartridge, but when they first introduced the tray that popped out, I think it was Coca-Cola, had a file that was like, "Press—" you know, "down—" you know, it was, like, "Free drink holder", and you'd click on it, and it would say, "Here is your free drink—" and it would just open your— your little— your disc tray, which, it was very funny in 1997, but...
Bill:
Oh, that's great.
Nicholas:
I tried it, like, maybe ten years later and as soon as I downloaded it it got flagged as a virus, as malware. Is it something that's kinda fun, but just gets flagged as being dodgy because it maybe just, you know–
Dani:
But it did break something.
Nicholas:
Yeah. Ah, yeah, I guess so. Yeah.
Tom:
I seem to recall Coca-Cola stopping the release of that little app because people did actually try and use the CD tray as a drink holder and broke it.
Bill:
I will say, this being flagged wouldn't have been an automated... at least not just like, "Oh, this is registering as this type of file." A human made the decision, at least, somewhere down the line.
Dani:
Oh, what games could be involved that would send me to something?
Nicholas:
I assumed "break" means, like, it broke the phone, like, you bricked it, but maybe it—
Dani:
Oh, like, physically? Not brick-ally?
Nicholas:
Like, maybe it's like a—I didn't know what the acronym but, like, it's like a tennis game but you use your phone as the ball. You know, like something like that.
Dani:
"Send Me To Heaven" and you throw it right up in the air.
Nicholas:
"Send Me To Heaven." Yes.
Bill:
Dani! The app is called "Send Me To Heaven".
Dani:
What?
Bill:
And you throw it right up there!
Dani:
Are you kidding?
Nicholas:
(laughs heartily)
Dani:
Was it just, like, the game is try to see— it tests your altitude?
Bill:
Yes! It uses the in-built gyroscope to— or, do phones have an in-built altimeter?
Tom:
It's the accelerometer.
Bill:
The accelerometer.
Dani:
Oh!
Tom:
It measured how long it was in free fall.
Dani:
Oh, wow!
Bill:
Yeah. And so it would measure that to give you a score of how high you have thrown your phone into the air – how well you could send it to Heaven. The "Me" in this case is the phone.
Dani:
Okay, the most outrageous part of that is only one person, you said, broke their phone?
Bill:
Eh, let's say at least one.
Dani:
Definitely at least one. If this had been— If I had been a teenager when this happened, oh boy! I would have lost some phones!
Bill:
It was released in 2013.
Dani:
Ah. Just missed.
Bill:
So you just missed out. Ah, yes.
You use the sensors in the phone to detect how high in the air you had thrown it. Apple noted the game was "encouraging behavior that could result in damage to the user's device."
It is still available on the Google Play store to this day.
The app, before you play it, does say, "Be careful not to injure yourself or others. Be always aware that there is enough space above you and around you. Do some training to learn the right skills to get best results."
SFX:
(group laughing)
Tom:
Good luck with this next question, folks.
Darius went around completing 'high fives' with people he's never met. This caused bemusement and then amusement. What was clever about his actions?
I'll say that again.
Darius went around completing 'high fives' with people he's never met. This caused bemusement and then amusement. What was clever about his actions?
Nicholas:
I think I know this one. I think I'm 90% sure I know this one.
Tom:
Then it's on the Escape This Podcast team.
Bill:
You can see how Lateral breaks your brain, because as soon as the question started, I was like, "Ah, Darius! This'll be referring to the ancient Persian emperor."
Dani:
That's the only one I've got.
Bill:
And then— or the ancient, like— Oh, what was Darius? Something–one of the ones that started with A. But you know, the ancient emperor Darius I, and then it was high fives, and I went, "Oh, wait. We also figured out on a previous Lateral that that did not exist before the '70s, so it can't have been ancient Sumerian high five."
Tom:
Also, when I was reading this question – and this is how my brain went – I went, "Oh, Darius. That must be the guy from Pop Idol."
SFX:
(Bill and Dani laugh)
Tom:
So...
Bill:
Weirdly, same guy!
Tom:
Yeah, British version of American Idol from, like, 2001, and... it's not that Darius. It's not that Darius.
Bill:
Not that Dar—okay. Dani. Dani, it's just you and me.
Dani:
We gotta learn another Darius quickly.
Bill:
These two guys next to us, they know. They're looking at us. They're judging us. I can see it in their eyes. They're saying, "These fools don't know anything about high fives."
Dani:
I know. I was here with the previous question.
Bill:
What's goin' on?
Dani:
It doesn't get any easier.
Bill:
Okay, okay, high fives. You go up and you high five someone, right? And they're like, "Why would you high five me? This is ridiculous! Oh, I get it!" What's the turning point?
Dani:
So now the problem is that I'm on ancient Persian Darius and I'm assuming that it's warfare.
Bill:
No, no, no, it's–
Dani:
And that it's making sure they don't have weapons.
Bill:
I think we're gonna go back to—I think we gotta go back to novelty shirts.
It's like, he high fives you, and then you turn, and his shirt says, "I only high five cool people."
And then they go, "Oh, thanks, Darius." And then he high fives them again and everybody's happy, and it's one of those really wholesome pranks. From the wholesome prank channel.
Dani:
It's like—so he high— did he high five them twice? I've already forgotten.
Tom:
Just the once.
Bill:
One high five, two reactions.
Dani:
Ah, so it's not a one high, one low.
Bill:
Mm. He high fives them. Pa-pow. They get—it was annoyance, and then un-annoyance? What was the exa— what were the emotions?
Dani:
Bemusement. Bemusement and amusement.
Tom:
Yeah, it's really well-phrased. It's bemusement and then amusement, yes.
Bill:
Okay, they're confused, and then they laugh, because they get a high five from Darius.
Tom:
And you did say "wholesome prank from the wholesome prank channel." Honestly, pretty accurate there. It's a pretty harmless prank.
Bill:
Okay, it's a harmless prank.
Dani:
When I was in Year 7 – so I was 12 years old for April Fools' Day – I would put slime on my hand and then shake hands with my friends.
Bill:
Is it what—don't— hey, kids at home, don't slime your hands and— this is why the Japanese police need gloves when they touch teenage girls. They're always sliming their hands and touching their friends.
SFX:
(Dani and Nicholas laugh)
Dani:
Well, yeah, now my next thought is, "Is something being transferred in this process?"
Bill:
Here's my thought.
Nicholas:
Just good vibes.
Bill:
Darius, he hides behind a little bush. Doesn't seem like it's gonna be a wholesome prank. Feels like he's gonna get someone. But no, he hides near a taxi rank. And all the people, they go, "Taxi, taxi!" And they stick their hands out and then he runs down the street and goes, "Pow, pow, pow, pow, pow!" Like he's a marathon runner getting the crowds as he goes past, and they all go, "That's not a taxi! It's a funny man!" And then they're very amused.
Tom:
You have identified almost all the bits of the question other than it's not a taxi rank.
Bill:
Where else do you put your hand out?
Nicholas:
Nazi rallies.
Tom:
Thank you! I was about—
Dani:
Yeah, and that! And that!
Nicholas:
He does—he goes to Nazi rallies and he's just high fiving Nazis and they're going, "What? Ah, you!" And it's very wholesome.
Bill:
That's not the Führer!
Dani:
But then notably their sense of humour kicked in.
Bill:
Yeah, Germans, famous.
Nicholas:
Yes. (giggles)
Bill:
Okay, okay, okay. When do you stick your hand out not expecting a high five?
Tom:
Mm!
Bill:
You stick your hand out for a taxi, but that's off—
Dani:
Most of the time.
Bill:
You put your hand out to see... He waits above people's windowsills when it looks like it might be raining outside but not quite sure. And so when they stick their hand out to check, he goes, "Ha-wah! I gotcha! Now off to slap cars in San Francisco!"
Dani:
I'm fully on transport now 'cause all I can think of is bus stops.
Tom:
There would be quite a few people attempting this. Basically any hour of any day... In this place you can find people to high five.
Nicholas:
It's very place-specific, isn't it?
Tom:
Mm, it is.
Bill:
At a certain place. They're all reaching out. It's the set of the movie Gravity and people go there and they recreate reaching for things.
Tom:
Mhm.
Bill:
Um... They're all trying to—
Tom:
They're actually— they're all posing for a photo.
Bill:
Oh, is it the leaning– is it–people put the lean– they, like, go to– they, like, hold up the Leaning Tower of Pisa, and then he comes up and he goes, "Slap!" And they go, "What? You're not the Tower of Pisa!"
Tom:
Yes, this is Darius Groza who made a viral video that I assume at some point, Nicholas, you've seen. It's in the back of your head. Where he in his words, "troll high fived the tourists" by completing the high five they had seemingly started by holding up the Tower of Pisa.
Bill:
Ah, it's beautiful.
Tom:
Nicholas, over to you for your guest question.
Nicholas:
Okay.
Olive goes into a computer shop and sees four very similar items. On the packaging is an office chair, a mug, a sailing yacht, and a children's kite respectively. What are they, and how do these images help?
I'll read it again.
Olive goes into a computer shop and sees four very similar items. On the packaging is an office chair, a mug, a sailing yacht, and a children's kite respectively. What are they, and how do these images help?
Dani:
Getting out the notebook and pencil.
Tom:
For everyone drawing along at home, I can tell you that drawing those things does not immediately help.
Dani:
Y'awh.
Bill:
Okay. It's not Olive, Popeye's girlfriend. Unless the sailing ship was really relevant.
Nicholas:
Olive is not relevant.
Bill:
Okay, good. That's good t—ooh! We got a secret—
Tom:
I'm sure Olive's lovely, but not relevant.
Bill:
Nah! You've given in your question and now you don't exist.
Nicholas:
No, no, you haven't met Olive.
Tom:
You said four identical products, apart from the logo on them, right? Or four—was it just four products?
Nicholas:
Very similar items.
Tom:
Okay.
Nicholas:
Very, very similar. Not identical but very similar.
Bill:
They're similar items. The only— but the biggest difference being they each have a different label. One is labeled with a chair. One is labeled with a boat. One is labeled with a mug. Or they all have all four labels?
Nicholas:
From the—that's— from the packaging, obviously those symbols, those pictures, are the biggest difference, but the items themselves have another important difference.
Bill:
That is exemplified by these different logos.
Dani:
'Cause what I immediately thought was that a sailing ship, if you're drawing just a very basic label of a sailing ship, that's triangle-y, so I went straight to trying to think of the basic shapes of these things, but things like an office chair, eh, I dunno what you're doing with that.
Bill:
Office chair's a bouba. Sailing ship's a kiki.
Dani:
Yeah, okay.
Tom:
(laughs)
Bill:
Okay, uh... Ship... ship, mug... chair, and what was the last one?
Tom:
Chair, mug, yacht, kite.
Nicholas:
It's an office chair, a mug, a sailing yacht, and a children's kite.
Bill:
What do I buy at a computer store? It could be a computer!
Nicholas:
I will say, Tom, that the way in which you just you just described those... is more helpful than the way that I described them.
Tom:
Chair, mug, yacht, kite, I think I said?
Nicholas:
Yeah.
Bill:
As audio escape room designers, we have had a lot of times where the answer was to say those four words over and over again
Tom:
(laughs)
Bill:
and they sound so— Once you know the answer, it's like, "You're just saying the answer out loud!" Chair—chair, mug, yacht, kite! Chair, mug, yacht, kite!
Dani:
Chair, mug...
Nicholas:
Yeah, I'm getting that right now. Yeah.
Bill:
I've had 20 minutes in a— on a video call with Alex Horne screaming, "uncle og, uncle og," until we both realised that it was "unclog–" was the answer to a puzzle.
Tom:
(laughs joyfully)
Bill:
It's���so, is that it? Does that help anybody?
Nicholas:
Look, I feel like the way in which you're saying it right now to me feels very obvious because I know the answer, so yeah.
Dani:
Oh, no! It's happening!
Bill:
Are they, like, rhyming words? Like, "This is a flare, so it rhymes with chair. This is a pug..." Um, I don't–
Tom:
Chair, mug, yacht, kite. Chair, mug, yacht– Tamagotchi. No, uh... Chair– (exhales)
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Tom:
Oh, this is infuriating.
Bill:
Right?
Tom:
So, like, if you collect all four of these, does it make a thing? Or is it just the four variants that...
Nicholas:
You do need all four of them. Yeah, you will need all four of them, but you won't need them necessarily all at the same time. Which is, you know, but you will, you know— so you might come in and buy one. You might come in and buy four. Might come in and buy three. You know, really depends on you.
Tom:
In a computer shop!
Bill:
Computer shop. And they seem very, very similar. You look at them and you'd be like, "Those are four similar objects!" But you'd buy them differently... What's–they're... they're...
Dani:
What electronic do you get multiple of with small differences?
Bill:
Chair. Mug. Yacht, kite.
Tom:
Yacht, kite, chair, mug, yacht, kite, chair, mug.
Bill:
Yacht, kite!
Tom:
Oh! Oh, it's the first letter. It's the first letter. It's the first letter.
Bill:
It's the first letter! They're—
Dani:
Yeah, okay, I see it.
Bill:
C, M, Y, K.
Tom:
These are ink cartridges, aren't they?
Nicholas:
Yes, they are ink cartridges.
Dani:
Didn't help that the first time I wrote down "ship" instead of "yacht".
Bill:
Yacht was so good, Tom! You had yacht! The word! We couldn't do it!
Tom:
Ink cartridges come in cyan, magenta, yellow, and K for "coal", for black. And... Are these HP-brand cartridges? I'm sure I've seen this somewhere.
Nicholas:
These are Brother.
Tom:
Brother, okay.
Nicholas:
Ink cartridges. So this is a set of four CY— CMYK printer inks: cyan, magenta, yellow, and black. The K is... the last letter in black.
The manufacturer represents these with the first letter of the objects: C, M, Y, and K for kite. So that it's harder to buy the wrong colour.
This question was inspired by the Brother Printer Company which uses similar images on their LC220-range of ink cartridges. However, they use a different reasoning.
By putting seemingly random images such as an apple, a guitar, or Jupiter on the cartridge boxes, it makes it harder to buy the wrong cartridge. A customer simply has to look for the one with the apple rather than LC227XL. The printers have a sticker of the correct photo as a reminder in case they've thrown the box away.
Tom:
And this is good for colourblind folks as well. It's just—ah! Yeah, okay. Fine.
Dani:
This is the second printer ink question that we've experienced on this show, coincidentally.
Tom:
I can't even remember the first one!
Dani:
Why are they so interesting and full of fun facts?
Bill:
I gotta say, they kind of are.
Nicholas:
I think Tom is in the pocket of big ink. I think all of those overpriced printers—
Bill:
You had the option to say Big Brother!
Nicholas:
(laughs)
Tom:
Which brings us to the question from the start of the show.
Thank you to Lois for sending this one in.
When is burning something the opposite of ripping it?
And I suspect from the ages of the folks in this call, you may all get this one. Anyone wanna go for it?
Dani:
I believe I mentioned being a teenager in the naughties.
Tom:
Yes.
Bill:
Uh, yeah. Nicholas already hinted earlier with his Coca-Cola CD tray bit.
Tom:
It has very much been the millennial episode of the podcast here.
Nicholas:
(guffaws)
Tom:
Nicholas, do you wanna kick this one home?
Nicholas:
Oh, look, no, I don't think it's fair that I do because I literally did not know the answer. Because I saw "burn" and "rip" and then you even talked about teenagers, and went, "Yeah, I've got this."
It's obviously smoking weed.
You burn one and you rip—
SFX:
(others laugh uproariously)
Nicholas:
That's what we're talking about, right? And then you mentioned "CD tray," and I went, "Oh, we're talking about burning CDs." Yes. 'Cause you rip a CD when you copy it from, and then you burn when you copy it to!
It's not a drug reference.
Tom:
Not this time, no.
Congratulations to our players. There may be drug references in the future. Who knows?
Let's talk about: What's going on in your lives? Where can people find you?
We will start with Nicholas.
Nicholas:
Yes, you can find me at conman.com.au where you can get all of my back catalog of Scamapalooza episodes.
Tom:
And Bill.
Bill:
Yeah, and look. You can check out our shows.
If you've checked out Escape This Podcast already, why not try Solve This Murder where we do audio murder mysteries and try and solve those over a series of 5–8 episodes each? They take a while. They're great fun.
Tom:
And Dani.
Dani:
And if you're still hankering for video games instead, check out our puzzle game Rise of the Golden Idol.
Tom:
And if you wanna know more about this show, you can do that at lateralcast.com where you can also send in your own ideas for questions. We are @lateralcast basically everywhere and there are regular video highlights at youtube.com/lateralcast.
Thank you very much to Dani Siller.
Dani:
Thank you!
Tom:
Bill Sunderland.
Bill:
Thanks for having me.
Tom:
Nicholas J. Johnson.
Nicholas:
Thank you very much.
Tom:
I've been Tom Scott, and that's been Lateral.
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