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Episode 135: Thumbs down? Good!
Published 9th May, 2025
Transcription by Caption+
Tom:
In 2017, why did the budget airline K-AIR rebrand itself as Aero K?
The answer to that at the end of the show. My name's Tom Scott, and this is Lateral.
Forgive me if I seem a little bit unprepared for today's show. I was only sent the script just before recording. Yesterday I did ask our producer what was going on, and he replied with a screenshot of level 310 of Candy Crush. Which is understandable 'cause the liquorice there is pretty tricky.
Hoping for some delicious questions today, we start with, returning to the show:
transport... nerd? You said that the other day, I think, and transport documentarian: Geoff Marshall. Welcome back.
Geoff:
Than​ks Tom. Nice to be here again. It's always so much fun to be on Lateral. Yes it is, I love it. I love it so much.
Tom:
(laughs)
Geoff:
Hann​ah was saying off a minute ago that she binge watched, and yeah, last night in bed, I watched two hours of straight of Lateral 'cause it was just so much fun. (laughs)
Tom:
I couldn't read whether you're being sarcastic or not.
Geoff:
No! No!
Tom:
Just it was so deadpan at the start.
Geoff:
I'm sorry!
Tom:
I couldn't quite work it out.
Geoff:
Genu​ine, no, I love it. You watch one, and you watch 20. It's great.
SFX:
(both laughing)
Tom:
Every time that you're on, I ask you what you're working on or something like that. I'm gonna just give you a route one ridiculous question. Favourite train, go.
Geoff:
(wheezes) I don't have one.
SFX:
(both laugh heartily)
Geoff:
I have a favourite station. I like Sudbury Town on the Piccadilly line. If you've never been to Sudbury Town, that would be my hot pick for looking just at sort of classic, 1930s Charles Holden architecture. There we go.
Tom:
Alrigh​t. Very best of luck on the show today.
Geoff:
Than​k you.
Tom:
You are joined by mathematician from the Finite Group:
Katie Steckles. Welcome back to the show.
Katie:
Hell​o.
Tom:
Alrigh​t, I'm gonna go with the boring route one question for you as well. Give me a good maths fact.
Katie:
A good maths fact?
2025, which is the year we're now in, is an incredible number for lots and lots of different reasons.
But it's the sum of the first nine cubes. And it's the square of the sum of the first nine squares, I think. There's a whole bunch of different ways you can make 2025. And it's also 20 + 25².
It's— there's so many things. It's great.
Tom:
And presumably that sum of all the cubes so far isn't gonna happen for another thousand years, because 10 cubed is...
Katie:
Oh yeah. The next cubed is massive, so...
Tom:
Yeah.
Katie:
Yeah​.
Tom:
I have no idea if that fact is going to come in useful today. I suspect it's not. But... good luck on the show. Rounding out the panel today... having made, frankly, a spectacular debut appearance last time:
Hannah Crosbie, welcome back to Lateral.
Hannah:
Hel​lo, thanks for having me back. I'm so excited to be here again.
Tom:
You are listed as wine columnist for The Guardian, wine expert in my notes. And I'm gonna go for the boring route one question again.
Hannah:
Oh no.
Tom:
How do you become wine expert? What's the path that gets you to being the person that writes for a national newspaper about wine?
Hannah:
I thought I say I don't know, 'cause I thought you were gonna ask me, what's your favourite wine? Which again –
Tom:
Oh, no, no.
Hannah:
–​ is like asking what's your favourite train? Like what's your favorite piece of music? How'd you become a wine writer? Just by drinking a lot. And then monetizing it.
Tom:
(laughs heartily)
Hannah:
Why​ do we do anything we love? Yeah, I just worked really hard.
Tom:
I mean, that's basically how I ended up up doing YouTube stuff.
Hannah:
So there we go.
Tom:
It was infrastructure and not alcohol, but it's— it feels like a vaguely similar path.
Hannah:
Yes​, same thing, yeah.
Tom:
Well, good luck to all three players today.
And while the producer is trying to manoeuver a wrapped candy next to a color bomb, let's skittle our way to question one.
Hannah:
(wheezes)
Geoff:
(cackles)
Tom:
Thank you to Mersco for this question.
In what activity does 'thumbs down' mean it's OK to continue, and 'thumbs up' mean there's a problem?
One more time.
In what activity does 'thumbs down' mean it's OK to continue, and 'thumbs up' mean there's a problem?
Geoff:
Is it a train thing? (laughs)
Hannah:
Ooh​.
Katie:
I think I might know an answer to this.
Tom:
Alrigh​t, Katie, you sit outta this one. Geoff?
Katie:
Yeah​.
Tom:
Why might it be a train thing?
Geoff:
Some​times, I don't know, my brain has just gone, sometimes a negative is a positive, as in there isn't a thing. So that it's okay for you to carry on doing something where there might be danger. That's just where my brain is gone. Is that... is that anywhere correct?
Tom:
It doesn't feel like a thumbs down to continue would be a good slang thing to work out for trains there. I feel like they're very big on safety and unambiguity.
Geoff:
Sure​. But why do I just feel like somebody going like that, you take as a negative? The negative would be no, as in no, there isn't a thing. So therefore you are okay to continue doing what you're doing?
Tom:
There is no train coming. You are absolutely safe to pass this.
SFX:
(Hannah and Geoff laugh)
Katie:
I feel like indicating that with a thumbs down is not a safe way around to do that.
Geoff:
No, it's not, is it? Okay.
Tom:
Railwa​ys famously known for being just a little bit lax with safety(!)
Geoff:
Apar​t from that, all I'm thinking is Gladiator, where it... where the emperor would be like thumb up or thumb down, wouldn't he, to save someone's life?
Hannah:
Oka​y to continue killing. Yes.
Geoff:
Yeah​.
Katie:
(laughs uproariously)
Geoff:
Oh, keep killing, keep killing!
Hannah:
Kee​p killing guys. You're doing great.
Geoff:
(laughs heartily)
Hannah:
I'm​ wondering whether it's to do with direction of travel. So if you're going down, it's like, oh— or you're travelling downwards. If you go down, it's like, yes, keep going down. Is it scuba diving? Yeah?
Katie:
Yeah​, this is the thing that I knew, that in scuba diving, if you do that, it means let's carry on going down. And if you do that, it means we need to get to the surface quick.
Tom:
You are absolutely right, Katie. You got it straight away and sat out. That is correct. It is direction of travel. In scuba diving, thumbs down begins the dive, indicates you're ready to go further down. Thumbs up indicates going up, either as planned or when there's an emergency.
Hannah:
Hey​, brilliant.
Tom:
There is also a gesture for go up as quickly as possible, which is waggling the hand and then giving a thumbs up. But obviously it's diving, so you have to be careful about how quickly you're surfacing. I realize this won't particularly work in audio, but... Hannah is clearly using a MacBook webcam here.
Hannah:
Yes​.
Tom:
Becaus​e you gave a thumbs down gesture, and on my video screen...
SFX:
(Geoff and Hannah laugh)
Tom:
a little thumbs down bubble just kind of popped up.
Geoff:
Bril​liant, brilliant.
Tom:
Geoff,​ we are gonna go to you for the next question.
Geoff:
Alri​ght.
This has been sent in by... Louis Haeck. Thank you.
Until sliding poles were invented in the 1870s, why did US fire stations prefer to use spiral staircases over regular ones?
That question again.
Sliding poles were invented in the 1870s, but in US fire station, they preferred to use spiral staircases instead of regular ones. Why was that?
Tom:
I love that someone had to invent the sliding pole? I just, of course someone had to invent that. Someone had to come up with the idea. But I kind of assumed that that was some historical thing.
Sorry, I feel like I'm blustering, but... my brain has just been really surprised by, first of all, someone had to invent the pole. Then someone had to invent the vertical pole.
And then at some point in history, someone was like, "Hold on. Hold on, folks. I've got an idea. What if?"
Katie:
I mean, I guess the innovation was this idea of it being used for one-way travel.
Tom:
Right.
Katie:
You know, the concept of a pole existed, but everyone who put a pole in their house was like, well, I put this in so I can go upstairs. But it's absolutely useless. I've been trying for an hour and still only halfway up. I guess when you've got that situation where you need to get down quickly, it suddenly becomes a useful thing, but... yeah. I mean, they'll have seen trees.
Tom:
(laughs uproariously)
Katie:
They​'ll have the concept of a pole. But I guess maybe not one you could slide down.
Tom:
What if tree, but smoother.
Hannah:
Smo​oth tree.
Katie:
Just​ a really shiny tree.
Hannah:
So wait, the question is, why did they prefer a spiral staircase as opposed to a regular one before the sliding pole?
Geoff:
Yeah​.
Hannah:
Oka​y.
Geoff:
Yeah​. I think this is really hard, by the way. So I'll be impressed if you get it.
Katie:
They​'re more compact as a architectural feature? They take up less floor space?
Geoff:
One of my clues here says saving space wasn't a concern. So no, not space.
Katie:
Oh, what?
Hannah:
Fle​xing how big their fire station is.
Tom:
(laughs)
Hannah:
Wha​t, is it something to do with how it's made?
Katie:
I'm sort of imagining if you have, 'cause the spiral staircase is like a central thing with the stairs coming off it. And then presumably a banister, and you can use that to get upstairs 'cause it's a staircase. But if you wanna get downstairs, you could do the cool thing where you sit on the banister and slide down. And that's almost as quick as going down a pole.
Tom:
But that's true with regular stairs as well.
Katie:
Well​, yeah, but in a straight line. Whereas in the spiral... it's cooler?
Tom:
(laughs)
Katie:
Yeah​.
Tom:
Oh no, 'cause I feel like centrifugal force... don't pedant me on that... is more likely to throw you out and off the banister there? Going down a straight banister is better than going down a spiral, surely.
Hannah:
And​ what's more annoying about going down stairs than a spiral staircase?
Tom:
So the firefighters are gonna have to carry a load of equipment or heavy clothing or something. So is it easier to descend when you're turning or something like that?
Geoff:
It is nothing to do with saving time, Tom. Sorry.
Tom:
Oh! Okay.
Hannah:
Is it to do with stuff that they have on their person? Because I was thinking about... I dunno, for some reason I was thinking about a comical scene of people running downstairs, like with a massive hose behind them. And I'm like, well, maybe it's easier for the hose to kind of wrap around.
Katie:
I considered that, but then I think they keep that on the truck.
Geoff:
Yeah​.
Hannah:
Yea​h. I think so.
Katie:
They​'re not like, "Quick, grab everything in the room and run down—" All the stuff is already loaded, right? They're not...
Hannah:
And​ then some guy's like, "We should put the hose in the car." Yeah.
Tom:
Yeah.
Katie:
Yeah​, that was the first innovation. Then poles. Yeah.
Hannah:
(giggles)
Tom:
I know we're talking about America here, Geoff, but old-timey firefighters in London sometimes just had to get their water from the river or something nearby. They didn't always carry it with them. That's still true now. That's why we have fire hydrants. But I'm wondering if there's any similar thing about equipment they had to carry or...
Geoff:
(shakes head coyly)
Tom:
someth​ing they... You can drop stuff down a spiral staircase in a way that you can't with a straight staircase. But you said it wasn't about saving time! So that doesn't—
Katie:
Mm. I'm wondering 'cause it's— The main task is to get a bunch of people, right? It's a whole squadron of people. I dunno if that's the right word. But, you know, a group of firefighters need to get from upstairs to downstairs as quickly as possible. Why is that easier with a spiral staircase than with a... straight staircase?
Tom:
Yeah, not necessarily faster, just easier?
Katie:
I mean, I guess you have to go across the room, and then you have to come back to where the vehicle is, whereas the spiral staircase just drops you straight down. Like it, you know, there's a vertical— There's a horizontal movement implied that you either have to do upstairs or downstairs in order to get downstairs, whereas—
Geoff:
Woul​d you like a clue? Should I go with a clue?
Tom:
Yeah.
Hannah:
Ple​ase, yes.
Geoff:
The next clue simply says, just think about what were fire engines like at the time. Think of a...
Tom:
They were horse-drawn.
Geoff:
(glares silently)
Hannah:
(gasps)
Tom:
I don't know what to do with that information.
SFX:
(guests laugh heartily)
Geoff:
But you get a point for that, Tom. You get ding, you get a point. You get a Lateral point.
Tom:
I was thinking like old-timey firefighters and you know, I forgot that the car had not been invented. The internal combustion engine is not a thing.
Hannah:
It'​s easier to drop onto a horse. If you run down a normal staircase, it sounds too much like other horses and freaks out the horse.
Tom:
(laughs)
Hannah:
How​ could that be easier to, because wait, no. Surely, they're getting in a carriage. They're not getting on the horse.
Tom:
It's a different problem to that. It's not saving time. It is preventing a problem or it's looking— I'm guessing it's preventing a problem.
Geoff:
To do with the thing you just said.
Tom:
Oh my god. Horses can't climb spiral staircases.
Geoff:
Go on. There's more, there's more. That's half, that's half of it.
Tom:
Okay, okay. But if you put a regular staircase in your fire station... the horses are going to climb it.
Geoff:
Yes,​ yes. But—
Tom:
If you put a spiral staircase, the horses... can't?
Geoff:
Much​ more difficult. Right, right. You've got 50% of the answer.
Tom:
Okay. Okay.
Geoff:
Ther​e's a two-part answer t'it.
Katie:
And did they store all the food upstairs?
Geoff:
Ther​e we go!
Tom:
Eyy!
Hannah:
Ohh​!
Geoff:
(applauds, laughs)
Hannah:
(applauds)
Geoff:
Bril​liant.
Hannah:
Wel​l done, Katie.
Tom:
I like how I said horses can't climb spiral staircases. As if I knew it as a fact – I didn't. Just to be clear, I did not know that. That was a complete guess.
Geoff:
Alri​ght, here's the lowdown.
Fire stations were split into two levels. The crew would typically be on the upper floor. The horses that pulled the engines were on the lower floor. The use of a spiral staircase or even a chute slide prevented the horses from climbing upstairs in search of food.
Bonus. Bonus facts. I love this.
The fire pole wasn't invented until 1878 by Captain David B. Kenyon of Chicago's Engine No. 21. The original was made from pine coats of varnish and paraffin applied to it.
And this is the most intriguing thing. Like all sort of, you know, breakthrough inventions. They were originally thought a bit of a stupid thing and they were laughed at, they were a laughing stock. Until other crews noticed that Company 21 was often first on the scene of a fire, and copied the idea.
Hannah:
Pro​of's in the pudding.
Tom:
And these are private firefighters, I think.
Geoff:
Yeah​, you've done a video on this, Tom.
Tom:
I have. I don't know if it's the right era for this, Particularly in the US, but certainly, there were sometimes competitive fire engine companies who were all privatised. And the first one to get there would get the money. Dunno if that's still true for 1870s in whichever part of America, but there would certainly just be competition and cachet of being the first there.
Geoff:
It isn't that great, but your hungry horses would get the whiff of dinner and think, "Mmm, I'mma try and climb the stairs."
Katie:
That​'s so good. I'm just enjoying imagining a horse trying to climb a spiral staircase now.
SFX:
(Hannah and Katie giggle)
Katie:
It's​ like... (imitates stomping) There's a thing about like, cows can't go downstairs, right?
Hannah:
I was just thinking this, is it up or down?
Geoff:
Like​ Daleks.
Katie:
They​ can go down, but they can't go up.
Hannah:
Yea​h, like Daleks.
SFX:
(guests chuckling)
Tom:
No, they can go up and go— They can go up but not go down, which is why there was a rash, I think in the '70s or '80s, of pranks in American universities where someone would just steal a cow and lead it upstairs. In some dorm or some uni— or to the administrator's office.
Geoff:
I'm gonna Google that. That'd better be true.
Tom:
Oh, it's probably apocryphal. It's probably apocryphal. But the prank was, yeah, it's real easy to get the cow upstairs. Good luck getting it back down.
Katie:
Yeah​, I mainly know this 'cause I've seen companies that advertise themselves as bovine descenders. And it's a service that they offer.
Tom:
Wh—o​w!
Katie:
If you've got a cow that's climbed up onto a thing and can't get down, they will come and descend your cow back down to—
Tom:
I think I saw them open for someone at Glastonbury once.
SFX:
(guests laugh heartily)
Geoff:
Eyyy​!
Tom:
Thank you to Anschel for this next question.
An advert on a subway train consists of two capital letters side-by-side, with a third letter directly above the first. What is it promoting?
I'll say that again.
An advert on a subway train consists of two capital letters side-by-side, with a third letter directly above the first. What is it promoting?
Geoff:
Oh, no, I know— I know— Surely I know this. I can't just say it. What? That's obvious what it is. Everyone knows that. Is it not?
Tom:
Mmh.
Geoff:
Can I say—
Tom:
Geoff,​ I think... I think you might have got the first half of this question. And you know what? We'll go for it. What do you think it's promoting? Just put it—
Geoff:
Is it the "I Heart NY" symbol?
Tom:
That is the first half of the question, Geoff.
Katie:
I was thinking that.
Tom:
It is based on that. But that is not the full story.
Geoff:
So somebody's copied that idea or design.
Katie:
So as it's been described, there's no heart.
Tom:
As it's been described, there's no heart.
Katie:
So it's just I-N-Y.
Tom:
Correc​t.
Katie:
So what goes in the space? Is it nothing?
Tom:
This is not the question that I thought was gonna fall first in this episode. Geoff, I thought this one was incredibly difficult, just like you thought yours was, but you've got a lot of the way there.
Katie:
I mean, the main reason that I'm thinking about it in this way is 'cause one of my friends has a mug that used to say "I heart spreadsheets". And the heart is made out of a different ink to the rest of the text. And the heart has dishwasher'd off. So now it just says, "I spreadsheets", which is the best mug ever.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Hannah:
Ooh​, love it.
Katie:
But that is why this has occurred to me. 'Cause you didn't mention that there was a heart there, so it's just the I and the NY underneath.
Tom:
Is that a euphemism for something, or is that just "I, spreadsheets"? Like I, Claudius?
Katie:
I now use that as like, if I'm gonna go and do some stuff in spreadsheets, I'm like, right, let's spread some sheets.
Tom:
(laughs)
Hannah:
Yea​h!
Katie:
It may also be a euphemism for something. I don't know.
Hannah:
So has it— Is it that the heart is completely gone, or has it been replaced with something else?
Tom:
It is just completely gone. You're right, Geoff. You identified what this is based on. This is "I [...] New York". INY, the famous, the famous logo.
Geoff:
Hmm.​ Which is in Courier font, isn't it? For some reason, I remember. I wonder—
Tom:
Yeah, typewriter-esque.
Hannah:
Is there no heart? Is it for organ donors or for...
Tom:
Spot on!
Hannah:
Oh!
Tom:
Yes!
SFX:
(Hannah and Geoff laugh)
Katie:
Nice​, nice.
Tom:
Absolu​tely right.
Geoff:
(applauds) Amazing!
Tom:
This is a poster for organ donation. it is the "I Heart New York" logo without a heart.
Geoff:
That​'s amazing.
Hannah:
Oh great.
Tom:
The question also said subway train. Specifically this is in New York, and the caption underneath says, "New York needs organ donors".
Hannah:
Oh,​ brilliant. Oh, I'm having a very good drink tonight. I'm very proud of myself.
Tom:
(cackles softly)
Hannah:
(snickers)
Tom:
You did say, Hannah, that after wine, quizzing is an interest here.
Hannah:
Mm,​ yeah, exactly. I mean, I would say it's the second love of my life. So, there we go.
Tom:
This is the "I Heart New York" logo, designed by Milton Glaser in— Not Malcolm Glazer. I nearly read Malcolm Glazer there.
Katie:
That​'s a football manager, isn't it?
Tom:
Pretty​ sure that's a football manager, yeah. Designed by Milton Glaser in 1976 in the back of a taxi.
Katie:
I mean, it feels pretty obvious as a logo, right?
Hannah:
Yea​h.
Katie:
It's​ not a lot to it.
Geoff:
(giggles)
Tom:
And yet no one else had done it. Somehow he just kind of put all that together and made it work.
Katie:
And now everyone else has done it for everything else.
Tom:
(laughs) Yes.
Hannah:
Yea​h, he just really loved NY.
Tom:
Like the subway roundel that's sitting behind you, Geoff. it is just, it's a symbol of the city. They removed the heart and they made that "I [blank] New York" for organ donation.
Hannah, it is over to you for the next question.
Hannah:
Sur​e.
This question has been sent in by Kieran John Littlewood.
On occasion, customers ask baristas to prepare their drink in a way that is impossible to achieve. What is the request, and what protocol does the barista use to keep their customer happy?
I'll say it again.
On occasion, customers ask baristas to prepare their drink in a way that is impossible to achieve. What is the request, and what protocol does the barista use to keep their customer happy?
Tom:
This is... tickling something in the back of my head. I have definitely heard of impossible requests and I cannot remember any more details other than thinking, "Oh, that's really clever."
Hannah:
Hav​e you ever made coffee before, Tom? for a... Saturday job or...
Tom:
No, I haven't. I'm not much of one for coffee.
Katie:
I mean, if you think it's something really clever, then my idea, which was asking for so many extra things to be added to the drink that it no longer fits into a cup, doesn't sound particularly clever, and it's probably not that.
Tom:
Oh, but some folks who have the Starbucks app do that. I've seen baristas complaining about that online.
There was a Starbucks thing for a while where every drink you ordered gave you tokens towards a free drink. But it didn't matter if you just ordered a cheap filter coffee. It gave you the token. Or something like that. And eventually it would just give you a free drink of basically any description.
And people would just add so much into it just for...
Katie:
(laughs) Yeah.
Tom:
quote-​unquote "comedy value". And not worrying about angering the food service employee that you literally couldn't fit all the sugar into a cup.
Geoff:
Talk​ing of comedy value, a lot of people don't like when Starbucks asks for your name. So people then came up with the joke of... creating a name of a realistic sounding, but fake drink. So they'd ask for a drink which doesn't exist, and they had to make them a drink anyway. Is it not a fake name drink?
Tom:
Oh dear.
Geoff:
I know that's a thing apparently.
Tom:
I really hope this isn't a people being rude to employees question.
Hannah:
(laughs)
Tom:
This isn't employees getting the better of someone question, I hope.
Hannah:
Yea​h, so I mean, I will say this is something that I used to make coffee in restaurants and various coffee shops, and it is quite an annoying request. It is not specific to a particular chain. It's annoying everywhere that this request is made. And it's not to do... Steer yourself away from the idea of apps or loyalty card.
Tom:
Okay.
Geoff:
Is it to do with secret things that don't appear on the menu? Like Starbucks have a secret sized cup, which they don't advertise? No?
Hannah:
It'​s to do with— It is prob— It's a very common request.
Geoff:
Is it to make a drink for... your baby or your dog or something? (muttering) It's like an unusual...
Tom:
Despit​e never being a barista, I have weird barista knowledge in the back of my head, it turns out. And there's definitely a thing where you're... Again, this is big corporate chains who have policies for such things.
You are not allowed to order caffeine for kids or extra hot stuff for kids, because it might burn them. Or someone orders a child's drink in order to get it cheaper. And the barista is not allowed to heat it beyond a certain temperature.
So it's not that good a drink. Is there... Agh...
Hannah:
The​re's something in that, yeah.
Tom:
There'​s a lot of stuff in the back of my head that keeps being dug out despite never having coffee experience and barista experience, and I can't— I've definitely seen a barista complain about this somewhere.
Katie:
Is it, when you say something that is impossible, is it impossible within the rules, or is it physically impossible?
Hannah:
It is... It would break the laws of physics if this request was achieved.
Tom:
Oh my god!
Katie:
Okay​. Okay.
Hannah:
Lit​erally, yeah.
Katie:
So like something that's hot and cold at the same time, or...
Tom:
We require a four-dimensional... coffee served in a... Euler... jug.
Hannah:
All​ the time. All the time. Yeah.
Tom:
Is it something like a hot iced coffee or something like that? 'Cause I—
Geoff:
(wheezes, cackles)
undefined:
​kay, lemme explain.
Tom:
There'​s a thing I found in New Zealand, which is like an iced chocolate, which is like you make cocoa as if it's gonna be hot cocoa, and then you pour it over ice. And outside New Zealand, that is just a confusing request to people.
Hannah:
Mm.​ It is— I will say that you can do it to several different kinds of drinks. But you're kind of probing around the right area.
Tom:
Well, it feels like we keep going around temperature.
Hannah:
You​'re so nearly there, yeah.
Tom:
We keep going on this, and it's— You said laws of physics.
Hannah:
Mhm​.
Tom:
So is there... It's not like they're asking for an iced hot drink or something.
Katie:
It's​ a hot coffee with an ice cube in it.
Tom:
(chuckles)
Katie:
Whic​h would not survive.
Hannah:
I think that, yeah, it's a lot more simple and really, really common.
Tom:
Are they asking for it like... Can you make it extra hot? And what they mean by that is they're like above 100 degrees Celsius?
Hannah:
Rig​ht.
Geoff:
(guffaws)
Tom:
Can you boil it—
Hannah:
Yes​.
Tom:
Really​?!
Geoff:
Is that it?
Hannah:
Yes​, that's it. So the first part, you've got, you're 50% of the way there. It's asking for an extra hot drink. Because things are served boiling, it's physically impossible to make anything hotter. So, yeah. So you've got the first half right. So that's the request. But what protocol does the barista use to keep the customer happy?
Tom:
How do you convince someone the drink is extra hot without actually breaking the laws of physics?
Katie:
This​ is a real bone of contention for me because coffee is made in a different way to tea, believe it or not. And I was at an event at a science festival several years ago with someone from Taylors of Harrogate, who make Yorkshire tea – an expert tea brewer – who explained that when you make coffee, you need the water to be 90 degrees, not 100 degrees. But when you make tea, you need it to be 100 degrees.
Tom:
Yes.
Katie:
And it's why so often, if you go to a coffee place, and they just use the coffee machine to make the tea, the tea is less good. 'Cause it doesn't brew as well. And this is a thing that I'm frequently angry about for no reason.
Tom:
(chuckles)
Katie:
But yeah, so the coffee is usually not quite 100 degrees. But yeah, I guess if people want it to be hotter than 100 degrees, they're not gonna get that. If you serve it in the form of a gas. Just like, here's your plasma.
SFX:
(Tom and Hannah laugh)
Katie:
Vapo​ur iced coffee.
Hannah:
Her​e's your suggestion of coffee, yes.
Geoff:
So does that mean they normally serve coffee at 90 degrees, and if you ask for extra hot, you get 95, so they can never max out at 100?
Tom:
No, the way that question's phrased, it feels like the barista is doing a trick or something that convinces...
Katie:
Yeah​.
Tom:
Convin​ces the customer.
Geoff:
They​ put a label on, saying, "This is definitely extra hot." On a little sticker on the side.
Hannah:
Yea​h. I can confirm. The barista doesn't treat the drink any differently to usual. The drink is unchanged.
Katie:
but they offer it to them with the lid off, so you can see the steam, so it looks hotter or...
Tom:
They put two of the cardboard things 'round the cup just to really convince people that it, you can't... Or they don't use the cardboard thing, so they just burn themselves.
Hannah:
You​'re almost there. You're almost there.
Geoff:
(cackles faintly)
Hannah:
You​'re dancing around.
Geoff:
(groans)
Katie:
They​ deliberately spill a bit. No.
Hannah:
(snickers) "Oh my gosh. It's so hot."
Katie:
That​'s how to get yourself sued, isn't it? Yeah.
Tom:
I was gonna say McDonald's had a lawsuit about that.
Katie:
Yeah​, did they just have to hand it over, going, "Oof, oof, this— hot— hoho!"
Hannah:
Act​ing, yeah.
Geoff:
(laughs heartily)
Katie:
Just​ really act like they're holding a hot object.
Geoff:
(laughs)
Katie:
is it really not like, not put the cardboard sleeve on? 'Cause that would be incredible if it... if that was sufficient, that people take it and they're like, "Oh, it's really hot." Oh, do you want a cardboard sleeve? Yes, I'll give you a cardboard sleeve.
Hannah:
It'​s not the answer I have here, but I would say it is a very similar psychological trick.
Geoff:
(sighs) The... So is it... the size of the cup or the shape of the cup, or a cup without a lid, or...
Hannah:
You​ guys are thinking about it being a takeaway. If you were to have the coffee in...
Geoff:
They​ make you sit in a warmer part of the coffee shop? (wheezes) So you feel—
Katie:
Did they heat the mug first?
Hannah:
Yes​! Yes, it is.
Tom:
Ohh!
Geoff:
Ohh!
Hannah:
Wel​l done, Katie. Yep, so... Customers sometimes ask for an extra hot tea or coffee. Since it's already made with boiling water, it physically can't be made any hotter without turning it into steam. So to keep the customer happy, they use a psychological trick. They will heat up the mug handle by placing it in boiling water, so that the customer believes that the drink is hotter than it is. Kieran, the sender of this question says, I'm regularly asked this in my job as a bartender barista. This is the protocol at all the places I have worked.
Tom:
This question has been sent in by Ed Lucas.
The Electric Light Orchestra's self-titled debut album came out in 1971. In the US, it was released under the title 'No Answer'. Why?
The Electric Light Orchestra's self-titled debut album came out in 1971. In the US, it was released under the title 'No Answer'. Why?
Geoff:
So ELO must have stood for something else in America.
Tom:
There'​s a few bands that have done that, aren't there? Alabama 3 is A3 in the US because Alabama the band complained.
Hannah:
Mm.​ ELO. Everyone loves...
Tom:
(chuckles softly)
Katie:
Oreg​on?
Hannah:
Ore​gon.
Tom:
(laughs)
Hannah:
And​ then all the other states were mad. Yeah. (snickers)
Katie:
Oh, yeah.
Tom:
I was gonna let that one go until someone threw in a suggestion for what ELO might stand for. Thank you. I can now tell you it's not that at all.
Hannah:
(laughs)
Tom:
But I wanted someone to guess what ELO might stand for.
Hannah:
Oka​y. So it's not that it's an acronym?
Tom:
No.
Hannah:
Oka​y.
Katie:
I mean, it sort of sounds like 'ello? Like if, like you're phoning someone,
Geoff:
Is ELO a word or slang or something rude in American English?
Katie:
Well​, I guess the band's still called that. It's just the name of the album.
Tom:
Yeah. This was a self-titled debut album. In the US, the album name was 'No Answer'. ELO was still ELO.
Geoff:
Sure​ly it can't be something like US law decrees that you can't have an album titled the same as the band name or something, is it?
Tom:
I mean, I feel like that's a First Amendment thing that should win out.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Tom:
But that doesn't sound like a US law.
Katie:
Ther​e must have been self-titled albums by other bands in America.
Hannah:
Yea​h.
Geoff:
No, but there's that thing in America where if you have a product, a product can't be named after the... I can't think of an example, and they asked me for an example. That's why they have like letters K for koffee instead of coffee. You can't have a product named after the thing. Does that make sense? You know that rule? Is that not a rule?
Tom:
I don't know. It is not a legal restriction, I'll tell you that much. It is not that the US government came in and said, thou shalt not have self-titled albums.
Geoff:
This​ happened to the films, doesn't it? Wasn't it The Madness of King George III here had the three dropped off in America? Because people might think, "well, I missed the first two"? I'm pretty sure that that was okay.
Tom:
I don't know. That might be apocryphal. It's a really nice story though.
Geoff:
Yeah​, definitely, definitely, definitely, The film Pirate Radio, they changed to the name The Boat That Rocked when it was released in the USA. 'Cause pirate radio isn't an expression that's used in the USA apparently.
Tom:
Ah.
Geoff:
That​'s a cool little fact.
Katie:
I hear a lot of these stories, and I do wonder how many of them are true because most of them are just like, oh, Americans are stupid. And I'm sure that can't be how it works. Like I used to play a computer game called Little Big Adventure, which was absolutely adorable. And apparently it was released in a different— under a different name in America because something couldn't be little and big at the same time, and it would confuse Americans.
SFX:
(Tom and Katie laugh)
Katie:
I think there was another thing with the same name.
Geoff:
So things have their name changed, but why... Why that?
Katie:
Well​, is the name important? So 'No Answer' sounds like the reply to something or the response to some kind of question.
Tom:
That, I think, is more the way to attack this question.
Hannah:
Did​ they get in touch with someone in the US? Okay, did the...
Katie:
(chuckles)
Hannah:
Did​ someone from ELO try to call his girlfriend in America, and she didn't reply and so passive-aggressively​ just called the album 'No Answer'?
Katie:
I just wonder if it's one of these sort of Welsh translation things where you see this signage that says on it, "The translation department is closed this weekend. Please get back in touch on Monday." 'Cause that's what they got back when they sent through the thing.
Tom:
Now, between the two of you, you've got this.
Geoff:
(laughs) Oh no!
Tom:
Put the story together here.
Katie:
(laughs heartily)
Hannah:
Oka​y.
Tom:
What happened? 'Cause the band did not know about this change.
Katie:
Righ​t, they asked the band what the album was gonna be called, and nobody answered. And, that was recorded as 'no answer'. And then that's what they called the album.
Tom:
Yes, that is absolutely right.
Hannah:
You​'re joking.
Geoff:
No! (laughs)
Katie:
Amaz​ing.
Tom:
Someon​e from ELO's American record label tried to phone the band's manager because they didn't quite know what the album title was. Is it self-titled? Has there been a mistake?
Someone put that call through, they couldn't get through. They wrote down 'no answer' on the release schedule, and that was mistaken for the album's title. And the US version...
Geoff:
No!
Tom:
Withou​t the band's knowledge... Became 'No Answer'.
Katie:
Incr​edible.
Hannah:
Tha​t's so funny.
Tom:
This is 1971, so, transatlantic calls are not cheap and not easy. Bev Bevan, the drummer of ELO, confirmed the story and said... "It was quite a good title though, wasn't it?"
SFX:
(Hannah and Katie giggle)
Geoff:
That​'s great.
Hannah:
I like it.
Katie:
That​ was so good.
Tom:
The next question is from Katie. Whenever you're ready.
Katie:
Okay​.
So this question has been sent in by Steve Barnes.
Ricardo Pietreczko from Berlin has the name 'Pikachu' on the darts circuit. Just before taking his turn, he will look down at the darts in his non-throwing hand. Why?
So once more.
Ricardo Pietreczko from Berlin has the name 'Pikachu' on the dart circuit. Just before taking his turn, he will look down at the darts in his non-throwing hand. Why?
Hannah:
Is he having a Pikachu three darts?
SFX:
(group laughing)
Tom:
I was just thinking that.
Hannah:
Wer​e you trying to foresee how you could formulate it as well?
Tom:
You got there just slightly before me while I was trying to assemble the pun. Well done.
Hannah:
Wha​t does Pikachu do? Why would you be called Pikachu? He's an electric mouse.
Tom:
I actually have some video game knowledge here. I did play the original Pokémon, so...
Geoff:
I have no Pokémon knowledge, so I'm just gonna say nothing.
Tom:
It's a little yellow mouse that shocks people.
Hannah:
Mhm​.
Tom:
Well, shocks other Pokémon and people and anything, frankly.
Hannah:
He lives in a Poké Ball. Says "Pika Pika." His trainer's Ash. Is this guy's trainer's Ash?
SFX:
(Hannah and Katie giggle)
Katie:
I'm kind of wondering how long to let you continue going down the Pikachu line.
Hannah:
Has​ it got nothing to do with Pikachu?
Katie:
On the basis that that is not actually relevant to the answer. Although I'm wondering if it's to do with his surname. 'Cause it sounds a bit like it or...
Tom:
Oh, yeah, the question is not "why is he called Pikachu?" That's just his nickname! It's, why does he look down at the darts in his non-throwing hand?
He's very bad— He has a very bad memory and doesn't remember how many darts he has and has to check every time...? Because that is a thing that darts players have to— if you— It's not just always hit the highest number. There's a rule in darts that your last throw to get down to zero has to hit a double on the outside ring. So if you are in a position where you're on like... I don't know, 23 points... that's impossible. You can't hit a double 11 and a half to end the round. So you've gotta do the maths to work out... a number you can hit to then hit a double.
So you've gotta know how many dots you have remaining. But that given the maximum is three, I feel like you don't need to look down every time.
Katie:
I would also argue, you could probably tell from looking at the dartboard.
Tom:
You could!
Katie:
How many darts you've thrown.
Tom:
Yeah, no, that's fair. You that, yeah. No, that's in your eye line, isn't it? That's... In hindsight, kind of obvious, that.
Katie:
But he will look at them before even throwing a dart.
Hannah:
Is it to do with how he's gonna select which one to throw first? Like, for, it's like, when you have cigarettes, and you flick the bottom to see which— and the one that comes up first is the one that you smoke the last.
Tom:
(laughs)
Hannah:
So it's like a similar thing with the darts, like whichever is closest to his fingers, he throws first? I dunno.
Katie:
He is looking down to determine which start to throw first.
Hannah:
Oh,​ brilliant, okay.
Tom:
Oh, so this is not before every throw. It's before the throw of the three?
Katie:
I think it would be before every throw, yeah.
Tom:
Okay.
Hannah:
To determine which one's next.
Katie:
I mean, not the last one.
Tom:
No.
Katie:
'Cau​se that's just the one dart he's still holding.
Tom:
It— Okay. It can't be a superstition. Lateral doesn't end up with eh, 'cause he feels like it. Eh, it's just... There's gotta be some reason for this.
Hannah:
Doe​s he have a tattoo on his palm with an arrow? And the dart the arrow is pointing at is the one that he uses next.
Katie:
No.
Hannah:
Oh,​ really? Are you sure?
Katie:
It was a good guess.
Tom:
The tattoo just says, "Remember: hit the board, not the ref. Hit the board, not the ref."
SFX:
(Hannah and Katie giggle)
Geoff:
I'm completely stunned. Gosh, I got nothing.
Tom:
I don't know enough about darts to know if the three darts can be different? I think you just have regulation darts. They've all gotta be the same, but maybe they have different flights, maybe they have different sizes or something like that.
Geoff:
Does​ he have custom darts? Has he got the Pikachu logo sort of on the feathers of the darts or something?
Tom:
Is he trying to spell out things on the dartboard by the order in which he's hitting them?
Katie:
So the darts that he has are not... They are a custom... Yeah, they're not standard darts. They're his own type that he uses for darts.
Geoff:
But surely all three darts by the regulation should be the same. Or are you allowed to have different weighted darts?
Katie:
They​, I guess...
Geoff:
Well​, continue that train of thought.
Hannah:
Dif​ferent design?
Geoff:
Is it because he has different weighted darts, and he... 'Cause they have a sort of the, on the barrel, if that's the word, there's a weight. So he has three different weights and he makes sure he wants to pick the right weight to get the certain number.
Katie:
Hann​ah's just come in with a suggestion there. So the weights are not the thing that's different. But the suggestion that Hannah had...
Hannah:
So I said, is it to do with the design? So they're kind of like regulation in terms of like weight and size, but the way that they're coloured is different.
Katie:
That​ is part of it. Yep.
Tom:
Could this be an accessibility thing? Is this a darts player who has some sort of adaptation for something medical, something physical?
Katie:
That​ would be a wonderful thing. It is not that in this case.
Tom:
Oh, okay, okay.
Hannah:
Is it to do with— Where is he from again?
Tom:
Berlin​.
Katie:
Yep.
Hannah:
Is it... black, yellow, and red? And then if he does it in a certain—
Tom:
Ah, it's the German flag, and they've all— They've always gotta land in order!
Katie:
They​'ve always gotta land in order. It is the German flag. So he throws his black, red, and yellow darts in the order black, red, yellow, because it's the German flag.
Hannah:
Oh my god, no way.
Katie:
And it's mainly just a little fun Easter egg for the fans. It obviously doesn't affect his darts game.
Hannah:
Yea​h.
Katie:
But he's very patriotic. And he likes to throw his darts. So he always has to check which one's which, to make sure he throws the black one first, then the red one, then the yellow one.
Geoff:
Wow.
Hannah:
Wel​l, I've got no words. I'm just— I'm gonna have another very strong drink tonight.
SFX:
(Tom and Hannah laugh)
Tom:
We have solved some questions quickly, which means we have unlocked the shiny bonus question. Good luck, folks.
On an episode of the ITV quiz show The Chase, three of the contestants were called Liz, Anya, and Ravi. Who was the fourth?
And I'll say that again.
On and episode of the ITV quiz show The Chase, three of the contestants were called Liz, Anya, and Ravi. Who was the fourth?
Geoff:
So that's L, A, and R. Does it spell a word? Is the obvious.
Katie:
Yeah​.
Hannah:
The​ thing that's— I think Hannah's got this as well. I think I might've already got this one, yeah. I think I've got it pretty quickly. I didn't know it, but...
Geoff:
Don'​t make me solve it by myself!
SFX:
(group laughing)
Tom:
I will tell you that Katie and Hannah have pretty much teed it up for you. Yes, it is spelling out something.
Geoff:
That​'s what I said. So L-A-R. So what's the next...
Katie:
I mean, the thing I'm thinking of doesn't just involve the first letters.
Hannah:
Lik​e how it's sat out when, you know, when they're all standing next to each other.
Geoff:
I'm looking down 'cause I've written it down on a bit of paper down here. Liz, Anya, and Ravi. LA, what is...
Katie:
I feel like writing it down is less helpful because it's better read out. For anyone listening in audio only, Geoff's face now is incredible.
Geoff:
Yeah​.
Katie:
You can see cogs turning in his head.
Tom:
The thing is, and we are ganging up on you slightly here, Geoff, but in my defence...
Geoff:
It's​ fine.
Tom:
It's funny.
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Tom:
This is a podcast that's meant to work in both audio and video, and you are just muttering the words quietly to yourself.
Geoff:
Oh, you want me to say it out loud? I'm just, I'm fearful I'm gonna get the pronunciation wrong. So Tom, I'm gonna get you to say the names again.
Tom:
Yep. Liz, Anya, Ravi.
Geoff:
Liz,​ Anya, Ravi.
Katie:
I also feel like the contestants, there's a— there's four contestants. I feel like they could team up into two pairs.
Tom:
They could.
Geoff:
Oh, oh. Lasagna and ravioli. Hang on.
Tom:
So the last name is?
Geoff:
Oli.
Tom:
Oli. Absolutely right.
Hannah:
Yay​!
SFX:
(group laughing)
Geoff:
I got it!
Tom:
The casting producers on The Chase pull in their block of contestants, and then if they can, will try and match up names. So that when they have the four names in a row, there is an Easter egg there.
Geoff:
That​'s a thing?!
Hannah:
Oh,​ great.
Geoff:
Ever​y...
Tom:
Not every episode, but enough that I do have some extra lines up here.
Katie:
Oh my god.
Tom:
They had Jerry, Emma, and Mel along with...
Hannah:
Mel​?
Tom:
The other...
Hannah:
Vic​toria.
Tom:
But yes, they found... They found the Spice Girls in there. They also had Lily, Alan, Craig, and...
Katie:
Davi​d.
Hannah:
Dav​id.
Tom:
David,​ yes.
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Katie:
Incr​edible. The question writers on The Chase obviously have a great sense of humour. 'Cause there's all kinds of brilliant clips of like the time when the answer to one of the questions was 'pass'. The person just said 'pass'.
Tom:
Yes, which I think at some point, we have had that as a question on Lateral as well. They are... Honestly, they're about a thousand episodes in now. They get their jokes where they can.
Which brings us to the question from the very start of the show, which was sent in by Akiva Weinberger. Thank you very much.
In 2017, why did the budget airline K-AIR rebrand itself as Aero K?
Geoff:
(raises hand sternly)
Tom:
Anyone​ want to take— Oh, Geoff. You know this one immediately?
Geoff:
I thought it was to do with an alphabetical sorting thing. Sometimes companies like their companies to start with an A, 'cause they're at the start of alphabetical listings.
Tom:
It's not. That would be a really good idea. But in this case, no. Also, obviously Aardvark Airways would always beat them, so...
Geoff:
Yes.
Hannah:
Obv​iously. Aaron Anderson Airways.
Katie:
Is K-AIR somehow, like, does it sound like something rude in the language of the countries that they were flying to or...
Hannah:
Is it Korea?
Tom:
It is Korea. This is K-AIR becoming Aero K. But it's not to do with alphabetisation and it's not to do with being rude.
Hannah:
I'm​ thinking it reads Kair— is— was there a hyphen or a slash in between?
Tom:
There used to be in K-AIR, yes. But no, Aero K is just A-E-R-O-K.
Hannah:
Oh,​ wait, so it's, why did you choose Aero K, as opposed to, why did you not choose— Oh, okay.
Tom:
Yes.
Katie:
I mean, I, wonder about, 'cause Aero K sounds like ROK, which is Republic of Korea.
Tom:
Now you're getting—
Katie:
Like​ in French, you would pronounce it Aero K.
Tom:
Now you're getting closer. It's sort of almost a valid, alternate reason there, but you're not quite looking at the pronunciation. 'Tis a word thing though.
Hannah:
Is it 'OK'? It sounds like A-OK.
Geoff:
I'm writing it down. What was it, AE...
Tom:
That's​ probably gonna help.
Geoff:
A-Eâ​€“
Tom:
R-O-K.​ And it is a Korean airline.
Hannah:
Kor​e-okay. Is it pal? No, not—
Katie:
Oh, is it— it's an anagram of— It's not an anagram of 'Korea', is it?
Tom:
It, I mean, it is an anagram.
Geoff:
Oh, it's 'Korea' backwards.
Tom:
It's an anagram in the sense, yes, that it is 'Korea' backwards, yes!
Katie:
Tech​nically true.
Tom:
Techni​cally a correct answer, but I think I have to give that one to Geoff. Yes, this is, Aero K, which spells 'Korea' backwards.
You could also have Air Egla in Algeria if you wanted to. You could have Air Tsua for Austria. There's Air Egin in Nigeria, Air Aglub in Bulgaria, Air Ebil in Liberia.
All of those are theoretically possible, but the only one that's actually done it is Aero K in Korea.
Geoff:
I learned so much from this. It's great.
Tom:
Congra​tulations to all three of our players. What's going on in your lives? Where can people find you? We will start with Hannah.
Hannah:
Con​tinue to read my Guardian wine column. I'm also on Sunday Brunch, which I forgot to mention last time.
Tom:
Eyy!
Hannah:
I usually announce on social media when I'm doing that. So if you wanna see me do live TV and trying not to swear, it's a great place to do that.
Tom:
Katie.
Katie:
Oh, I've done loads of stuff. As always, I've recently appeared in some new videos for BBC GCSE Bitesize Maths.
So if you or anyone you know needs to revise for a GCSE in maths, you can hear my voice desperately struggling to read out literally how to do GCSE maths questions. It's incredibly complex and quite fun to listen to.
Can I also just say hi to the woman who recognised me on a train platform from being on this show? I literally got recognised by someone, and it was fantastic 'cause she couldn't work out where she recognised me from.
She was like, "I'm sure I've seen you on something."
And I was saying stuff I'd been doing. And she's like, "No, it's not that. It's not that." We eventually worked out it was this. So, hello.
Hannah:
Oh.
Katie:
If you are still listening/watching. That was an incredible moment for me.
Tom:
And also regularly recognized on train platforms, Geoff!
Geoff:
No, true story. Geoff Marshall, Geoff with a G, YouTube channel with transport and travel documentaries. So thank you, yeah, have— Go have a look.
Tom:
And if you wanna know more about this show, you can do that at lateralcast.com where you can also send in your own ideas for questions. We are at @lateralcast basically everywhere, and there are regular video highlights at youtube.com/lateralc​ast.
And I think I just set a speed record for saying those words.
Thank you very much to Geoff Marshall.
Geoff:
Than​k you, Tom.
Tom:
Katie Steckles.
Hannah:
Tha​nk you.
Tom:
Hannah​ Crosbie.
Hannah:
Tha​nks for having me.
Tom:
My name's Tom Scott, and that's been Lateral.
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