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Episode 136: Kayaking by umbrella
Published 16th May, 2025
Transcription by Caption+
Tom:
In Iceland, which publication contains 19 ninjas, 44 Jedi, and seven Supermans?
The answer to that at the end of the show. My name's Tom Scott, and this is Lateral.
SFX:
(papers rustling off-mic)
Tom:
Sorry, folks. I think the script is from the people who use the studio before us. But it's gonna have to do.
Hello, my name's Peter Stockton, and welcome to another edition of Me and My Pencil. We're the number one podcast for fans of graphite bars encased in wood pulp tubes. Coming up today, what's the ideal sharpening angle? There's news about new finger grip patterns. And we have a bumper mailbag in reaction to last week's heated debate: traditional versus mechanical.
Firstly, we have someone who's been using the same pencil since 2007. It's marine biology PhD and, in her own words, also a mom that makes stuff for the internet.
Welcome back to the show, Virginia Schutte!
Virginia:
Hi, thank you! I'm very attached to my pencil.
SFX:
(both laughing)
Tom:
The last time we talked, you were just about to head off to Antarctica, and we haven't chatted since. So, in the 30 seconds allocated for this in the show, how was Antarctica?
Virginia:
It was amazing! That's under 30 seconds.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Virginia:
There you go. It was so good!
Tom:
What'd you get up to out there?
Virginia:
It was— we went to the wrong side of Antarctica. Most people go to a very predictable spot near South America 'cause that's where the continent's closest to where people usually live. We went waaay far away from that. And it was like being in a Star Wars episode every day. A different landscape that just seems unimaginable, but so, so cool.
Tom:
Which also wonderfully applies to the questions in this show. So very best of luck today.
Virginia:
(laughs)
Tom:
Next up, with a collection of over 200 erasers of various types, it's a PhD in biomechanics from Draw Curiosity on YouTube and Twitch.
Welcome back, Inés Laura Dawson.
Inés:
It is so great to be back.
Tom:
What are you working on at the minute? What's the big projects for you?
Inés:
Right now I'm working on a bunch of different projects.
I am doing some big science streaming projects, such as the science of contraception on Twitch, as well as some things for Women's Day, International Women's Day.
And on YouTube, I am finally working on the video that everyone wants, which is, how much did the braid weigh when I cut my hair off five years ago?
Jenny:
Whoa.
SFX:
(group giggling)
Jenny:
I'm terrified what pencil secrets you've found out about me.
Tom:
Finally, please welcome the number one London fan of pencil sharpeners. We have tour guide and author of the book Mavericks that I completely forgot to plug last time.
J. Draper, welcome back to the show.
Jenny:
Thank you for having me. It's lovely to be here.
Tom:
I mean, tell us about Mavericks because I feel like we slightly skipped over the actual book last time.
Jenny:
That's very sweet of you.
Mavericks is about 24 people throughout history who've had weird lives. Either they've chosen to do something strange with their life, or life has done something strange to them.
Tom:
Give us a couple of names. Who have you covered in there?
Jenny:
So we talk about Sabrina Sidney, who was the subject of a bizarre child raising experiment in the 18th century.
We talk about William Buckland, who was a palaeontologist who ate his way through the animal kingdom.
And we talk about Ellen and William Craft, who escaped slavery in the American south by fleeing over 1,000 miles across country with Ellen dressed as a white man.
Tom:
(gapes silently) And all those are available in the book and will be discussed no further on this podcast! That is the best promo I can give you!
Jenny:
Thank you.
Tom:
Well, as we always say on this show, every pencil has a point, and every point has a story. With that in mind, let's write a new chapter with question one.
This question has been sent in by Fernando de Querol.
When touring around a coastline or river by kayak, why is it particularly useful to bring an umbrella?
One more time.
When touring around a coastline or river by kayak, why is it particularly useful to bring an umbrella?
Jenny:
Are you putting the umbrella upside down and floating it on the water? Or carrying something in it upside down?
Inés:
Does it work... Oh! Bird poop!
SFX:
(Tom and Inés laugh heartily)
Virginia:
Oh, I was gonna say live birds. I've been attacked by a swan in a kayak before, and I wished I had an umbrella.
Tom:
I've been attacked by a coot in a kayak.
Jenny:
A coot?
Tom:
And then shortly thereafterwards, I was no longer in the kayak. You'd think so—
Jenny:
A coot got you out of the kayak?
Tom:
No, no, no, no. I stand by this. They look like tiny little birds, and then—
Jenny:
They are tiny little birds.
Tom:
I'm just paddling along and I get too close to a nest that I don't know is there. And suddenly this black feathery ball of death flies out and thankfully starts pecking at the kayak, not me, but I just had to kind of swim away.
Inés:
Did you wish you had an umbrella?
Tom:
I mean, it would've helped. Inés, you very enthusiastically said bird poop.
Inés:
I may have stories. Not involving kayaks, but involving... birds and poop.
Tom:
You can't stop there.
Jenny:
Go on.
Virginia:
I know! (laughs) And poop. Let's hear it.
Inés:
The most embarrassing email I ever had to send in my entire life was as I was walking to a very important PhD meeting
Tom:
Aww, no.
Inés:
where I would go from candidate to PhD student. And I was leaving, so I'd be there early. So my alarm went off. The one that says, "Inés, you should leave home now, so you get to your meeting on time." So I just stopped in the middle of the street. I bent over, I opened up my bag, and as if it was trying to score 100 points, this pigeon...
Tom:
Oh no.
Jenny:
No!
Inés:
I did not know that so much... stuff...
Tom:
Yeah, yeah, no. I regret asking for this story now. I regret asking for this story.
Jenny:
(guffaws)
Inés:
On me, my laptop. I could barely type on my phone, but it basically says, "Can the meeting be an hour later? A pigeon just defecated on me."
Jenny:
Oh no, you poor thing. And if you'd left— if you'd left house— the house late, that wouldn't have happened.
Inés:
Well, we...
Jenny:
Just 'cause you were there early.
Tom:
Depends if it's a pigeon with a vengeance.
Inés:
All I can say... supposedly being pooped on gives you good luck. But, unfortunately, it did not give me good luck (giggles) in this meeting.
Virginia:
Oh, no.
Inés:
But it's okay. Ever since then, I kind of wish I'd had an umbrella. So that is why my guess is bird poop.
Tom:
Not in this case, because... if you were touring around a coastline or a river, not in a kayak, then...
Jenny:
Oh, it's to keep the seagulls off you. With your chips.
SFX:
(others laughing)
Jenny:
When you're paddling with your chips in one hand, you gotta have an umbrella to keep the seagulls off you.
Tom:
That's still true if you're not in a kayak though.
Inés:
Is it so you can use the hook of the umbrella... to pull your oar back if it falls away, and you can use the hook? So it's less about the umbrella part, and more about the handle?
Virginia:
I'm wondering if it's like a collapsible sail. So the wind can pull you, but then— and you can Mary Poppins your way through the water. But if there's no wind or it's the wrong direction, you just fold it up and stick it in the bottom?
Tom:
Virginia, you have got it. Out of the blue. Out of nowhere.
Inés:
Marine biologist Virginia knows her stuff!
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Virginia:
So there was one summer when I was studying stuff in the Florida Keys, and I had to kayak. It was like two miles, one way, each way... to get to my experiment. And I never got abs, which was unfair. But I remember thinking, if I'm not gonna get abs, I might as well go faster, if only I had a sail. And I should have used an umbrella.
Tom:
Yep, when embarking on a longer tour, kayakers can use the umbrella as a makeshift sail. And if the tailwind is strong enough... you can steer the rudder of the sea kayak. If the wind is lighter, you can sail and paddle at the same time.
Jenny:
Amazing, well done.
Inés:
Brilliant.
Tom:
The catch is, of course, you can't quite see where you're going.
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Tom:
Our question writer says, "This is something I've seen while kayaking and being by the river in northern Germany."
Inés:
How resourceful. I love that.
Tom:
Inés, we will take the next question from you, please.
Inés:
Okay.
On some rugged terrain in south Utah, there is a pair of sturdy metal poles, about 8 feet or 2.5 metres high. There's nothing else of note as far as the eyes can see. What are the poles for?
On some rugged terrain in south Utah, there is a pair of sturdy metal poles, about 8 feet (2.5 metres) high. There's nothing else of note as far as the eyes can see. What are the poles for?
Jenny:
Are they some sort of scientific instrument? They're measuring like wind strength?
Tom:
Southern Utah.
Inés:
Mhm.
Tom:
Makes me think of Monument Valley.
Jenny:
Monument Valley, right.
Tom:
Yeah. I dunno if that's southern Utah. It's definitely in that part of the world.
Virginia:
Pretty rocks.
Tom:
Yes.
Jenny:
Yeah.
Virginia:
(laughs)
Jenny:
And she said it was rugged. So like rocks.
Tom:
Utah has a lot of pretty rocks.
Jenny:
Got some great rocks. Top ten rocks.
Tom:
Which is...
Jenny:
Definitely.
Tom:
Unfortunately the exact opposite of marine biology.
Inés:
(guffaws)
Virginia:
Hey, hey! I'm smart in many things.
Tom:
Oh, that didn't mean to... didn't mean to denigrate. I apolo— I withdraw the comment.
Virginia:
Now I have to get this one right.
SFX:
(guests giggling)
Jenny:
Are they for campers? And they're like, you can use this as your washing line, to dry your tent out. It probably doesn't rain that much.
Tom:
I mean, we don't know how far apart these are. These could be two poles that are next to each other. Or they could be miles apart. I'm assuming they're vertical. They might not be.
Inés:
Oh, they are vertical. And I can't say how far apart they are.
Tom:
Are you going to?
Inés:
I could let— I could let— I could— I could let you all talk a little bit more.
SFX:
(Jenny and Inés laugh)
Virginia:
I could see it being something safety related, like lightning rods, but I could also see it being a very silly thing, like it's for the traveling mus— like magicians who are following some app's recommendation.
SFX:
(others blurt laughter)
Virginia:
There's a challenge you have to complete there, like climb up the poles with one, you know.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Virginia:
There's a wide range of how serious we can be with this answer, right?
Tom:
That just puts me in mind of the world's longest golf course. There is a golf course across the Nullarbor Plain in Australia. And it's just...
Jenny:
Okay?
Tom:
It's called the Nullarbor because there's nothing there. And it's like a 3–4 day drive through nothing. And someone's just set up 18 desert golf holes at intervals along there just so you have something to do on the long track.
Jenny:
Something to do.
Tom:
So it could be just like one of those weird tourist attractions that America just sets up in places.
Inés:
So, one of the clues, which... Virginia got correctly...
Virginia:
(gasps) Tom, I am smart.
SFX:
(Virginia and Inés giggle profusely)
Jenny:
Never underestimate a marine biologist.
SFX:
(Virginia and Inés laugh)
Tom:
Oh, I've learned this. I've learned this very quickly.
Inés:
They are a safety feature.
Jenny:
Do they go down into the ground? Are they for... like, do they vibrate and scare away moles? Or the mole people?
Inés:
Because they're 2.5 metres high, they probably do go quite a bit into the earth so they don't fall over, but... the information of that is not something I know. So, no.
Tom:
I'm just gonna pick up on mole people there, Jenny.
Jenny:
You know, the mole people of southern Utah.
Virginia:
Is there something that connects them, like wire or a rope or a line?
Inés:
They are just two vertical poles.
Jenny:
Are they antennae?
Tom:
Is it just two very tall people from Poland?
Jenny:
Ohh.
Virginia:
Ohh.
Jenny:
Just stood there. Eight feet tall each.
Tom:
(snickers)
Inés:
There are no... two metal replicas of Polish people.
Tom:
Alright, alright.
Inés:
They are not that.
SFX:
(guests giggling)
Jenny:
You said it was a safety feature. So is— I mean, I think Virginia already guessed to catch lightning, right? It's not for that.
Inés:
It is not.
Jenny:
And eight metres— Eight feet wouldn't really do that. And you don't really need a lightning rod
Tom:
in the desert unless you happen to be standing...
Jenny:
Unless it was a big—
Tom:
Right there on your— yeah. But they're in the desert ground, so...
Virginia:
I mean, is it as simple as marking something like, here lies a death pit, don't get within 10 feet? is it a marker for safety?
Jenny:
Yeah, this is no place of honour.
Virginia:
Right.
Tom:
Oh yeah. (chuckles) No highly esteemed deed is commemorated here.
Jenny:
No highly esteemed deeds are commemorated here.
Virginia:
(laughs heartily) Magicians come through here. And lemme tell you!
Tom:
(belly laughs)
Jenny:
Beware! Beware! You might get... (cracks up) You might get closeup magic tat.
Tom:
I once saw on the internet somewhere that someone had got "This place is not a place of honour" – which is the nuclear warning things – on booty shorts. Just as a...
Virginia:
(laughs uproariously)
Jenny:
You've outed yourself as a Tumblrite, Tom.
Tom:
Oh, no. I've outed myself as having someone who just insists on forwarding things to me like that.
Jenny:
(cackles)
Tom:
I am certainly downstream of Tumblr, but I'm not going into those waters.
SFX:
(guests giggling)
Tom:
On the other hand, Jenny, you have just outed yourself as a Tumblrite. Although given last time you were on here, you made multiple fanfic references, eh!
Jenny:
It's... I... Girl, I was also at the devils sacrament.
Tom:
Right? (laughs)
Inés:
They are kind of a marker as said, but in different ways. We haven't figured out what they're doing.
Virginia:
Is there anything on the poles, like a sign or a piece of cloth or...
Tom:
It's just an enormous sign that says, "Look out, two giant poles."
Jenny:
(cackles)
Virginia:
I heard a bird?
Inés:
There is a sign with the answer. So there is a sign.
Jenny:
There's a sign explaining what the poles are?
Inés:
Yes.
Tom:
We have previously talked on Lateral a long time ago about markings for speed, about highways that have markers drawn on 'em, a mile apart.
Jenny:
To slow you down.
Tom:
So you can— well, partly for that and partly to test your speedometer, and partly so that people watching— When they say "speed enforced by aircraft" there's occasionally someone up there looking down with a stopwatch at the— and looking at the mile markers.
Jenny:
With a sniper rifle? What?
Tom:
Oh no.
Jenny:
What are they gonna do?
Tom:
They will radio the cop a couple of miles down the road.
Jenny:
Ohh. Okay. So it's actually gonna be enforced by a car.
Tom:
Yeah. But I'm wondering if it's something to check... to check your own speed or to check something you're doing. You can use this to test something or calibrate something.
Inés:
It is used to check something. It is also used in a much— for a much less sophisticated measurement.
Virginia:
If the sun— If you stand at the base of the pole and the sun is lower than here, you're going to be caught outside in the dark, and that's not good.
Tom:
Ooh.
Virginia:
It's a very concise sign.
Inés:
Like, you're not wrong. It says if something... if something is the case, don't do the thing.
Tom:
Oh, okay.
Virginia:
If something is the case, don't do the thing.
Jenny:
If the shadows line up?
Tom:
If you can't touch— If these poles are too hot to touch, then do not continue into the desert, or you'll be caught out in the wilderness and... can't carry enough water, if...
Inés:
Mm-mm. But I love this though. (laughs)
Jenny:
If these poles are covered in flies, it is fly season. I can't think of anything that wouldn't be really obvious. Just... (laughs)
Inés:
If you— okay. It's an area that is very popular with tourists.
Jenny:
So people who wouldn't necessarily be prepared to... for desert rugged hiking?
Inés:
Yes, something.
Tom:
What are the tourist attractions in Utah?
Virginia:
If you go past that sign, it's five hours 'til you get back or something. Time?
Inés:
It is not. It is not time. But it is a very simple measurement. You don't need to... You don't need a watch.
Jenny:
You don't need a watch?
Virginia:
All I can think of are plagues now. Like the underwater thing. If the sign's covered in locusts, there's a locust plague.
Jenny:
Yeah.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Jenny:
If the sign is painted with lamb's blood, then the firstborn will die.
Virginia:
Yeah. (giggles) Yes.
Jenny:
Is it... a measurement? Is it like, can you reach from pole to pole, If you can touch them both?
Tom:
If you can fit bet— If you can...
Virginia:
(gasps)
Tom:
If you can't fit between these poles...
Jenny:
Then you're gonna get stuck in this cave.
Inés:
Yep, that is... pretty much the answer.
Virginia:
Yay!
Inés:
Yay.
Virginia:
(laughs)
Inés:
Good job. So... The poles are roughly 30cm apart, one foot. It says to prevent tourists from getting stuck in a very narrow canyon. For the context, the Spooky Slot Canyon, which I have to say, most amazing name ever.
Jenny:
You can't call it that and then expect tourists to go in it.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Jenny:
You gotta call it like Sand Canyon or like Rock Canyon or something. You can't call it Spooky Canyon.
Inés:
So, so great.
It's the narrowest in Utah. A slot canyon is when the walls are over 10 times higher than the narrowest point. The posts act as a size gauge.
A sign at the top says: "If you have trouble fitting your body between these posts, do not proceed through Spooky Gulch. You may become stuck and need rescue."
Tom:
Wow!
Virginia:
(laughs) Oh man!
Inés:
And then... There is also the Peekaboo Slot Canyon nearby, which also a favourite for tourists who don't have claustrophobia.
SFX:
(group giggling)
Tom:
Next question's from me. Good luck.
Once a year, a primary school teacher puts on a crocodile glove puppet. Why?
And one more time.
Once a year, a primary school teacher puts on a crocodile glove puppet. Why?
Inés:
It's the annual school play. See ya later, alligators. (muttering thru laughter)
Jenny:
Why not? That sounds great.
Virginia:
I know! 'Cause she wants to, Tom!
Tom:
(laughs)
Jenny:
That sounds fun. Don't be ruining her fun.
Tom:
It is bring your crocodile glove puppet to work day. No, it's not that. It's not that.
Inés:
Is it for the children?
Tom:
It is for the children. I'll give you that much. But I'll let you talk about it between yourselves for a while.
Virginia:
She hates it. Show up to the lunchroom that day. All the teachers are throwing things. They're so mad about the socks.
Inés:
I'm just thinking like, I don't know. Vaccination day in primary school. Is it to distract the kids?
Jenny:
Awh!
Inés:
So they'll line up for the yearly jabs or something, and it's like a distraction for them. Like, look, smile at the alligator or he'll bite you.
Jenny:
My mum was a... My mum was a press photographer, and whenever she had to take a picture of a very young child, she had a little toy of the character Sweep from the children's show Sooty and Sweep. And Sweep has a squeaker. So she would waggle Sweep in the air and squeak him... to get the child's attention. Is that what the crocodile is for?
Tom:
It's not unfortunately, but it is for the kids. And the kids are roughly eight years old.
Jenny:
Is it... Does it have to be a crocodile?
Tom:
It... could be an alligator. I have crocodile. It could be an alligator. But anything other than that.
Jenny:
It's to teach them the difference between crocodiles and alligators. When in puppet form...
Inés:
They have teeth. Maybe it's, you know, the tooth fairy. Aren't kids losing teeth around that age?
Jenny:
Ohh!
Inés:
It's like a dental hygiene seminar.
Jenny:
About brushing your teeth! Yes! Oh my god, that's—
Inés:
The dentistry outreach day.
Jenny:
That would be great.
Inés:
Sponsored by the alligator.
Jenny:
And this is how you brush the teeth on little alligator puppet. I mean, you should know that by the time you're eight, but maybe just in case, we do it again.
Tom:
Virginia and Inés, you were making some hand gestures there. And honestly, I think those might start to help. Folks at home, feel free to make the gesture you think a crocodile glove puppet would make.
Inés:
Is it like, stop talking? When the alligator talks, the teacher's talking. When it's not, you may raise your hand? Is it like a sort of...
Jenny:
It's only once a year though. Is this like the Christmas alligator? The Christmas crocodile?
Virginia:
So I was thinking something with chomping. Like emotion, like... If it's like... if it's not to teach about alligators or crocodiles, like, "Hello, we live in a place with reptiles, and they could bite you," then maybe it's like the physics of, you know. Is your hand gets caught in the door. You know, this is why we don't... I don't know, something with...
Tom:
The children are told that the crocodile is greedy.
Virginia:
Greedy.
Jenny:
Is this... Is the crocodile like the Cookie Monster?
Virginia:
Oh, is it to take donations?
Jenny:
Oh, put money inside the crocodile.
Virginia:
Eat your donations.
Inés:
Asking money from kids(?)
SFX:
(group laughing)
Inés:
In this economy(?)
Tom:
What are we, YouTubers?
SFX:
(laughter intensifies)
Inés:
Is there like a national greed day? I know there's a National Giving Day.
Jenny:
Ha!
SFX:
(Virginia and Inés laugh)
Jenny:
Thanksgiving.
Virginia:
We celebrate being greedy.
Inés:
Isn't that the Tuesday after Black Friday? Giving Tuesday?
SFX:
(group laughing)
Tom:
Keep going with those hand gestures.
Jenny:
Alright.
Tom:
Seriously.
Jenny:
Hand gestures.
Inés:
Isn't there a coordination exercise?
Jenny:
Once a year, you need to stretch your hand. You've not got fingers. Imagine children, what life would be like...
SFX:
(others laughing)
Jenny:
if you didn't have fingers.
Inés:
Are we teaching flamenco to the kids so they learn how to click with the flamenco?
Tom:
What I love is that a load of people listening to this is also—
Jenny:
Left and right! No.
Tom:
Oh, now Jenny. Not quite, but you're getting closer. It's a concept kind of like that. Direction is important.
Virginia:
Left and right?
Jenny:
Open and close?
Tom:
Jenny, not that, but the direction the crocodile is facing will be important.
Virginia:
(giggles profusely)
Inés:
This is just a blooper reel of us.
SFX:
(group laughs heartily)
Virginia:
There is no point to this question. It's just so we can look silly. Mission accomplished.
Jenny:
Is it different times? Is she telling— No. 'Cause you can't do some times.
Virginia:
Greedy for...
Tom:
This is sort of—
Jenny:
The crocodile's greedy.
Tom:
This is for an 8-year-old's maths lesson.
Virginia:
Fractions! Oh! Greater than, less than.
Tom:
Keep talking.
Virginia:
I don't— Greater than, less than? The alligator eats the bigger number 'cause it's greedy.
Tom:
There we go. Yes.
SFX:
Ohh!
Jenny:
Nice one, Virginia.
Virginia:
(laughs)
Inés:
I never had crocodiles in my math lessons! I'm writing a letter complaint.
Jenny:
Marine biologists also know about operations.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Tom:
This is to teach children about the greater-than and less-than signs. I remember a lesson similar to this from when I was a kid. We did not get taught it with an alligator glove puppet, but there was certainly the metaphor of the alligator's jaw being greedy and going towards the bigger number. This is a glove puppet used by quite a few teachers to teach greater than and less than.
Inés:
I'm impressed it was just once a year. I feel like our math lessons...
Tom:
(laughs)
Virginia:
That's what I was thinking.
Tom:
Virginia, we will go to you whenever you're ready.
Virginia:
This question has been sent in by Zilland.
A man in Minas Gerai, Brazil rides a bicycle for eight hours. Though his bike goes nowhere useful, it saves him a day of time and makes the local population safer. How?
And I will read it again.
A man in Minas Gerai, Brazil rides a bicycle for eight hours. Though his bike goes nowhere useful, it saves him a day of time and makes the local population safer. How?
Jenny:
It goes nowhere or it goes nowhere useful?
Tom:
It goes nowhere useful.
Jenny:
It isn't a static bike, but he's not going anywhere in particular. Is he generating electricity with it still though? It might if you use that electricity to power...
Virginia:
There were a lot of questions in there. I would like to let you process for a minute. So, talk amongst yourselves.
Jenny:
I ask it not directly. I ask it out loud to the universe.
Inés:
I wonder if his job is to ride around on his bicycle and maybe he has a banner that has information or is part of the authorities, so people feel safer when they see him around. Even though he's not actually going anywhere, but you know, sort of presenteeism that is made better by him being on the bike.
Tom:
It saves him a day of time.
Jenny:
Oh yeah, yeah.
Tom:
That's the... Making the local population safer, sure. But saving him a day? My first thought was he was scaring birds or something like that, and it saves him time for... the crops or something like that?
Jenny:
He's crossing a date line or something, but that's, if it's in Brazil
Tom:
Not in Brazil.
Jenny:
then no.
Tom:
Not in Brazil. Nowhere useful. Saves him a day of time.
Inés:
If—
Tom:
Makes the local population safe.
Inés:
If it's eight hours, are you just three times faster on a bike? So if he were walking, it would take him a day, versus on a bike, it would take him eight hours?
Jenny:
Like he could do this walking, but... since he's doing it on a bike, that's much faster. Maybe he used to do it walking.
Inés:
Is there something that could be done with something that's not a bike? And does the— The other question is, does the bike actually move? Is it a treadmill bike or a...
Virginia:
So I'm going to step in with a couple pieces of information. Because I feel like... you need that.
SFX:
(group laughs uproariously)
Tom:
That's bad.
Virginia:
I love you all. However... So...
Jenny:
Alright.
Virginia:
Jenny and Inés... you have asked whether it's going nowhere or going nowhere useful. And I think you should know 'cause I think you both hypothesized that it was going just nowhere and I think you should know that that part is correct. The bike does not move even an inch forward.
Tom:
Huh.
Inés:
Is he doing a spinning class?
SFX:
(group laughing)
Tom:
An eight hour spinning class.
Jenny:
Oh, brutal. That saves him a day of time somehow. What, does this bike power something?
Tom:
I was thinking electricity generation or something like that, but... But you don't get that much power from one person pedaling. I've seen experiments like that. You don't really get enough to power anything and it's not consistent.
Jenny:
But what if you just needed something to turn around? You don't need to generate power. You're just like moving something.
Tom:
Rather than generating electricity, could the power be used more directly? Could one of the wheels be attached to... a cable or something that does something?
Inés:
Is he a baker? Is he kneading dough or something? And it's a way of...
Tom:
Oh?
Inés:
You know, mechanically doing something.
Jenny:
Some sort of crazy Wallace & Gromit invention where it's connected up to paddles or... a cable that pulls a boat. Like it pulls a ferry.
Virginia:
The thing about powering something, like generating electricity, that part is correct.
Tom:
Oh, okay.
Virginia:
But I also think you should know... that... he is not the only bicycler. And I want to remind you of the question. His bike goes nowhere useful, and we now know that means nowhere, saves him a day of time and makes the local population safer. So... if you imagine he's not the only one doing this, I really want to see if y'all can get the population safer and then saving him a day of time.
Inés:
I guess if everyone is saving their electricity bill by cycling at the same time, they will be engaged and then too tired to commit crime. Ergo everyone's safer.
Jenny:
(laughs uproariously)
Tom:
It is a bicycle. It is two-tyred.
Jenny:
Boo.
Virginia:
Oh god.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Jenny:
Dang, man. The puns today.
Tom:
Yeah, sorry. I'm not sorry. That's a lie.
Jenny:
You're not sorry.
Inés:
(blurts cackle)
Virginia:
So I actually want to use that opportunity to steer you toward... a different meaning for the word 'time'.
Inés:
Is he cutting down time to plant? Like, is harvesting time?
Jenny:
Rosemary, sage, and thyme? No!
Virginia:
Okay, so along with the alternate meaning of time, I want to direct y'all back to the, you know... this man is not the only one doing this. So where could you get a population of people for which multiple people at a time could be riding bikes and it would, each one of them would be saving time?
Tom:
I mean, I've just got a spin class. Someone mentioned that earlier. In my head, this is just like... exercise that's also generating electricity.
Virginia:
That's correct.
Tom:
Okay.
Virginia:
But for these people, well, it's not exercise. I mean, it is exercise, but like... They're riding, it generates electricity, and then also it holds special... The time part for these people is special.
Inés:
Is this...
Virginia:
I don't think I'm helping! (laughs)
Inés:
Is this electricity that they would have to go to great lengths to obtain... otherwise? Is it sort of a reserve generator?
Jenny:
I've gotta walk for a mile to the electricity farm and bring back a bucket of electricity.
Virginia:
A bucket! (laughs) I've got my umbrella full of— No. So the keeping people safer part is separate from the time reduced.
Jenny:
Okay. So the biking on its own keeps people safe. Or at least— Are these— Oh, they're not like— no. They're not people who would otherwise be committing crimes.
Tom:
(chortles) Oh, no.
Virginia:
Oh, stay with that theme.
Jenny:
No!
Tom:
Really? Wha...
Jenny:
They're not like... This isn't like a prison treadmill situation, is it?
Virginia:
Is there a meaning of time that is special to people in prisons?
Jenny:
They're doing time?
Tom:
Oh no!
Jenny:
And they get time off? They get time off?
Virginia:
Yes.
Jenny:
This is Victorian!
Virginia:
(laughs heartily)
Jenny:
We did that to Oscar Wilde, man!
Virginia:
I feel like this is actually a really good thing, because if you think there are lots of ways that people take time off their sentence, right? Like community service and stuff. So this is not like dark, sinister... like whipping people to pedal faster.
Jenny:
Okay, there's no whips involved. That's different from what I was thinking.
Virginia:
They're not squeezing into slot canyons. Yeah. So, okay. So lemme tell you. Inmates in the Brazilian state of – I'm so sorry – Minas Gerai rode stationary bikes to charge batteries attached to them. The scheme's initial four bicycles – Oh, initial, so it grew – initial four bicycles provided enough electrical power to light ten lamps at a perilous riverside walkway. So these people were doing a real— This is community service! In exchange for eight hours of work, the inmates were offered a reduction of one day of "time"... off their prison sentence. The scheme also provided inmates with fresh air and exercise they wouldn't normally receive.
One inmate was reported to have trimmed 20 days off his sentence and four kilos from his waistline.
Tom:
The next question is from Christopher Henney-Turner. Thank you, Christopher.
Sir Robert Watson-Watt's experiments in detecting thunderstorms found an unexpected application for which he was knighted. However, in 1956, he was shocked by an unexpected charge, complaining that he had become the victim of his own invention. What happened?
I will give you that again.
Sir Robert Watson-Watt's experiments in detecting thunderstorms found an unexpected application for which he was knighted. However, in 1956, he was shocked by an unexpected charge, complaining that he had become the victim of his own invention. What happened?
Jenny:
So there's no way that that's a charge as in an electrical charge. That's either a criminal charge or a bill. Like he's somehow being billed for all this electricity.
Inés:
I was gonna say, is he... Is he surprised, shocked, or is he...
Tom:
I was really trying to read that question as best I could to get like electricity charge and electricity shock as the subtext. But yes, you have correctly identified the pun in the question there.
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Tom:
And all I'll say is that he was not shocked by an electrical charge.
Jenny:
Got it. Alright. I thought I was being clever, but I guess not.
Tom:
You were.
Inés:
You were being clever.
Virginia:
I was right there with you. Yeah.
Jenny:
It was real obvious. So yeah, either a criminal charge or a bill. And this is in the '50s.
Tom:
Well, the unexpected charge was in the '50s.
Jenny:
Yeah, but so he's been doing something for a while. And unexp— And after, I dunno, 20 years of this invention... he has an unexpected— it either turned out to have been illegal this whole time or turned out to have been costing him a massive amount in his electricity bills, and they didn't bill him for 20 years for some reason? Maybe the elec—
Inés:
It sounds like an overcharge.
Virginia:
I think it's gonna be that one though. 'Cause I think the criminal thing... I don't think we'd have two criminal questions. That's pretty dark.
Jenny:
Good point, good point.
Virginia:
And so... I think it's gonna be silly.
Jenny:
Yeah, alright.
Virginia:
Just based on...
Inés:
Yeah.
Virginia:
Tom, how silly are you feeling right now?
Tom:
I mean, it is moderately silly.
Jenny:
I'm imagining him as a grumpy person in a local newspaper, holding up his council tax bill.
Tom:
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. This is a grumpy person in local newspaper story.
Virginia:
Was everyone using his device? And so he got charged for everyone, not just himself? Maybe? Like he only made one or... It didn't distribute like he thought?
Jenny:
Did he think he was generating power, but actually he just plugged into the mains and was using the mains power? And his invention didn't work at all?
Tom:
Despite saying this is not about electricity, you have all honed in on electricity, and that's not what this is about.
Virginia:
Oh. Well, his name is Watts. Like Watt.
Tom:
Yeah, his name is Sir Robert Watson-Watt. But I didn't mention anything about electricity here.
Inés:
Did he get sued by Mr. Watt? For using the same surname for lightning related things?
Jenny:
Copyright on his name.
Tom:
This is that Watt. But he was working on a lot of things as well.
Inés:
Watt was he working on?
Virginia:
A watt of things? (guffaws)
Tom:
His experiments in detecting thunderstorms.
Inés:
Okay. I mean, those usually have electricity, but...
Tom:
I can see why you picked up on electricity here, but that is a bit of a red herring.
Jenny:
He's not finding the thunderstorms through... lightning. He's finding them through... thunder maybe? He's like, he's got a seismograph in the sky that wobbles every time there's thunder or... there's a pre— You can test it with pressure, right? Like your barometer goes really low when there's a... when there's a thunderstorm.
Tom:
Keep thinking that way. Sort of inventions that might help detect things far away.
Virginia:
So what if it's sound and he was listening to thunder super far away, and then he gave everybody sound listeners from far away, and everyone heard him insult the local... mayor or... (laughs)
Inés:
Was he infiltrating radio waves somehow?
Jenny:
Oh, hang on. This is the '50s. Was he— Was this— Is this a Russian spy thing? Did he pick up— Did they find out that he was also selling secrets to the Ruskies because he'd accidentally broadcast on his lightning detection system?
Tom:
Between you, there were all sorts of points that headed in the right direction.
Virginia, you were talking about sound waves and sound detection. His invention actually made that obsolete.
And Inés, you were talking about radio waves.
Inés:
Mhm.
Tom:
Jenny, I'd try and add a third thing, but unfortunately I don't have one from what you said.
Jenny:
Thanks, man. That's really kind of you to have tried.
Tom:
(groans)
Jenny:
That's alright.
Inés:
Was he canceling out emergency radio waves? So he was charged with interference of some sort?
Tom:
If you figure out the invention, you'll be able to figure out the second part of the question.
Virginia:
So it made sound listening obsolete.
Tom:
Yeah. There are sound mirrors on the British coast, which are giant concrete structures that people used to – for a little while – as we were testing them, stand in them as giant amplifiers and try and hear things far away.
Watt's experiments and Watt's discoveries were part of what made that obsolete.
Inés:
Did he accidentally deafen some people, so they got rid of it? Was this a safety concern?
Tom:
Radio waves, Inés.
Inés:
Radio waves, okay.
Virginia:
I mean, did he invent the radio? I don't know who invented the radio.
Tom:
It's a technology that's used with weather even now. If you are in the US, they will talk about their... cloud detecting, rain detecting thing. And they will give it a name.
Virginia:
Radar or something?
Tom:
Radar. Yes.
Virginia:
Oh.
Tom:
Sir Robert Watson Watt... Obviously there's a lot of people working on things like that, but his discoveries helped create radar.
Jenny:
So radar is World War II.
Tom:
Yep. Vital tool, helped detect the Luftwaffe. That was for— That was why he was knighted.
Inés:
Did he accidentally reveal the position... of people on their side, and that was discovered? Therefore, he was releasing information?
Tom:
Not in 1956. This is years after the war. He has been given his knighthood.
Jenny:
Was he still listening in to the RAF in the '50s, going, "Oh yeah, they fired me, but I can tell where they all are."
SFX:
(guests giggling)
Tom:
I mean, radar just kind of gives you a ping. It just kinda gives you...
Jenny:
Sure.
Tom:
location and speed. That's about it.
Jenny:
And he was using it to find...
Virginia:
Oh, did it lead to police guns and speeding stuff?
Tom:
Yes!
Virginia:
Then he got—
Jenny:
Ahh.
Virginia:
(laughs heartily)
Jenny:
Radar guns.
Tom:
Keep going. Keep going.
Virginia:
So he invents radar, and it's a weather tool, and then the police are like, "Oh hi, we could use that for our own purposes." And then they train it around town, and he gets caught speeding, and he's like, "Oh, I made that happen."
Tom:
Yeah, that's basically it.
Jenny:
Oh, my hubris!
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Tom:
He was driving in Canada in 1956. He was stopped for speeding by a policeman using a very early form of the radar gun, and was charged with an on-the-spot fine fine of $12.50, which—
Jenny:
You'd be kicking yourself, wouldn't you?
Tom:
Yep. Yeah. Even though his wife tried to use the line, "Don't you know who you're giving a ticket to?"
SFX:
(group giggling)
Virginia:
And the police officer was like, "Right, Mr. Watt, he invented electricity."
SFX:
(Tom and Virginia laugh)
Virginia:
That's what the police officer said. How much is $12.50 in...
Tom:
$12.50 Canadian dollars back then, I couldn't tell you what that is now. Enough to be frustrating. he claimed that he had been the victim of his own invention.
Inés:
Mm.
Jenny:
Mm.
Tom:
His original request from the British government was to invent a death ray that would heat up enemy aircraft, and...
Virginia:
Oh my.
Tom:
He had to write back and say that that is impossible, but I can tell you where they are.
SFX:
(Virginia and Inés giggle)
Inés:
Can we just say Virginia got a full house here?
SFX:
(Virginia and Inés laugh)
Jenny:
Storming it, man!
Inés:
Marine biologist.
Jenny:
Marine biologist.
Virginia:
I really think— If you go backwards in time in this video, I think you will hear Tom say something about speed. And so I think all I was doing was listening very hard. (laughs) I don't think—
Inés:
You were radaring it very well.
Tom:
Jenny, it's your question. Whenever you're ready.
Jenny:
This question has been sent in by Evvie Jo.
Kraków, Poland has one of the largest medieval market squares in Europe, dating back to the 1200s. Though its location hasn't changed over the centuries, the medieval thoroughfare is up to four metres (13 feet) away from the current one. How?
I'll say it again.
Kraków, Poland has one of the largest medieval market squares in Europe, dating back to the 1200s. Though its location hasn't changed over the centuries, The medieval thoroughfare is up to four metres (13 feet) away from the current one. How?
Inés:
Is that just how tectonic plates work over the last 800 years?
Tom:
(chuckles)
Virginia:
That's simple.
Jenny:
I don't know that there is a tectonic fault in Kraków.
Tom:
No, it's a fairly inactive area, that. But that is a problem in some countries. Like, for GPS, Australia is moving so fast. I think it's northeast, that every so often, they just have to kind of update the basis for where the GPS goes to, and that's actually a bit of a problem.
Inés:
So I will say I have been to that square. And there was... I have been to Kraków. I don't know the answer, but I have a story there, which was I wanted to buy a pretzel, and I accidentally opened my wallet, and all the money went everywhere.
Jenny:
I was like, I'll pay for this!
Inés:
Coins exploded everywhere.
Jenny:
Oh, no. We're probably not the first person to have done that, but to be fair.
Inés:
But I'm pretty sure people excited to pay is not the reason that the market has displaced by a few metres.
Virginia:
Okay. I feel like when it says off, my initial instinct is it's moved sideways, but a lot of cities famously built up over time. Because refuse and stuff like piles up and things are built.
Like Seattle has an underground city and I know that was maybe more deliberate, but... a lot of cities are kind of building up a little bit.
Tom:
Or it's four metres down just 'cause it's been eroded by so many cart tracks and so much over the years.
Jenny:
I mean, that's the fastest question we've ever had. Well done, Virginia.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Tom:
Really? It's just—
Virginia:
(laughs hysterically)
Jenny:
You, I mean, you do a market for... Like enough people drop their coins on the ground over 800 years...
SFX:
(others laugh uproariously)
Virginia:
it's gonna— Inés, Inés is the reason this happened.
Inés:
My wallet's so heavy, it made the market go down.
Jenny:
That's it. So the current square is built on four metres of debris. That's really deep archaeology. That's, yeah, it's... I mean, a lot of medieval cities will have something like that. But, yeah, that's... that's quick. That's fast that that's happened.
Tom:
Wait, that's over 800 years.
Jenny:
Yeah, since the 1200s.
Tom:
That's like half a metre a century?
Jenny:
Yeah, that's fast.
Tom:
I'm doing maths in my head. And that's 50 cm for... that's... Am I right in saying that's five mil a year?
Virginia:
You know what though? It may not be a linear accumulation. It may be that back when they dumped all their crap in the street, like literally and figur— It may be that it built up a lot in the beginning. In the last 200 years, it's been pretty stable. That's what I'm gonna think about.
Jenny:
Yeah, so, the reason it happens is because basically every time it got too dirty, like every time the roads got too mucky, they would put in a load of new straw and new dirt to clean it up. And so over the years, that's why it's happened so fast. And there is a museum where you can go down into the excavation. it's called the Rynek Underground Museum. If that's how it's pronounced.
Tom:
So, one last order of business.
Thank you to Lateral player Ólafur Waage for sending this question in.
In Iceland, which publication contains 19 Ninjas, 44 Jedi, and seven Supermans?
I'll give you that one more time.
In Iceland, which publication contains 19 Ninjas, 44 Jedi, and seven Supermans?
Jenny:
Is it the phone book?
Tom:
It is the phone book! Yes, it is!
SFX:
(guests cheering)
Jenny:
Because in Iceland, they have matronymics or patronymics, I think.
Tom:
Mhm.
Jenny:
And so they— All of them have such similar names... that I guess you get to pick a fun name to differentiate yourself. 'Cause otherwise everyone would just have the same name.
Tom:
Mm, you've got the phone book. You haven't got the other half of that. This is not the names of the people in there. Well, it's not all the names of the people in there.
Inés:
Are these businesses?
Tom:
If you have lots of people with the same name, what else might the phone book do?
Jenny:
Addresses? It's gonna give you some other way of differentiating them.
Tom:
Mhm.
Inés:
Addresses or who they're related to, maybe?
Jenny:
Is it a job? Is that— Have people put their jobs in? And they put my job as a ninja?
Tom:
Yes.
Jenny:
Yes! Ohh!
Inés:
(cackles)
Jenny:
Gotta get one right tonight.
Tom:
Yep. Iceland's phone company couldn't keep up with the modern years where people change occupation frequently. So they started to allow anything that passed a profanity filter. So some people put in Ninjas, Jedi, Superman.
There are also five people who have the forename Ninja. Which means that there are some extra Ninjas, ninjas in the phone book.
Congratulations to all three of our players. What's going on in your lives? Where can people find you?
We will start with Jenny.
Jenny:
You can find me at @JDraperLondon on YouTube and TikTok, and you can find my book Mavericks in all good bookshops.
Tom:
Inés.
Inés:
You can find me on YouTube and Twitch at @DrawCuriosity. I make videos about once a month and I stream three times a week all about science.
Virginia:
And Virginia. I am at @VGWSchutte, my last name, on YouTube and Instagram, and if you follow me, you'll be promoting a pitch I'm making this year for a talk show. So please come talk to me.
Tom:
And if you wanna find out more about this show, you can do that at lateralcast.com where you can also send in your own ideas for a question. We are at @lateralcast basically everywhere, and there are regular video highlights at youtube.com/lateralcast.
Thank you very much to J. Draper!
Jenny:
Thank you for having me! It's been great.
Tom:
Virginia Schutte.
Virginia:
Yay!
Tom:
And Inés Laura Dawson.
Inés:
Thank you for having me.
Tom:
I've been Tom Scott, and that's been Lateral.
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