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Episode 141: The world's longest poem
Published 20th June, 2025
Transcription by Caption+
Tom:
In Finland, what food item is sometimes jokingly called 'Moomin meat'?
The answer to that at the end of the show. My name's Tom Scott, and this is Lateral.
Before we start, we'd like to thank the dozens of you who sent in so many kind comments in response to episode 125. They weren't for me or the show, but for the picture of the producer's dog. But have no fear. We are not desperate enough to attempt that trick twice.
Unrelatedly, here's some music.
SFX:
♫ (lounge music)
(photo of Bonnie)
Tom:
And if you're listening to this show in audio, don't worry, you missed nothing.
Hoping they're not going to have a ruff time with the questions, first returning to the show: working on a PhD in drug delivery systems and one of the players, hopefully still, on ITV's The Genius Game, Charlotte Yeung, welcome back.
Charlotte:
​Thank you very much.
Tom:
You cannot talk about the details. This will be going out about six weeks after the first episode we recorded with you. So you may still be in, you may be out. We, we cannot talk about this. What I will ask is, what was it like being on The Genius Game?
Charlotte:
​I think The Genius Game was one of the most exciting points in my life. It really brought together all the knowledge that I wanted to put out there, and I wanted to put myself out there as well. And we've made a really great collective group of friends. We still talk to each other. I attended weddings. I've attended puzzle meetups. We've done a lot together, so, if nothing else, regardless of whether I'm still in the show or not, I'm just really happy to have met everyone there.
Tom:
That's​ just really lovely to hear. Because presumably we're gonna be a few weeks into the season when this airs. We will have seen all sorts of arguing and fighting and things like that. And it is lovely to hear that you're all getting along. Also joining us, someone who owns a pillow with the face of Lee Sang-min from the original Korean Genius Game, a joke that I'm now gonna try and ask him to explain, Matt Gray.
Matt:
That was a housemate's. Not mine. So I don't have that in my house anymore.
Tom:
You don't have it anymore?!
Matt:
No!
Tom:
Oh!
Matt:
House​mate moved out. I'd completely forgotten about that though. But I'm gonna just gloss over it and let everyone wonder what the hell that's about. Hi!
Tom:
How are you doing, Matt?
Matt:
I'm all good, thank you. I'm actually quite excited because as we record this, next week, I might be getting to play with a satellite?
Tom:
Oh?
Matt:
In space?
Tom:
Okay, is the satellite in space, or are you in space?
Matt:
I think the answer is neither, because it's a satellite that's about to go to space maybe. I don't know the details. If this actually becomes a video, you can watch it on my series Matt Gray is Trying, which may or may not be out now, who knows?
Tom:
Well, good luck to both you and the satellite. The third member of our team— That sounded slightly dismissive of your ability to deal with a satellite, Matt, and I apologise for that.
Matt:
If you've seen the rest of my Matt Gray is Trying series, I'm not surprised if you classify me as that bad.
Tom:
And the third member of our trio today is returning to the show: puzzle and quiz editor and designer. Dan Peake.
Daniel:
Yel​lo! No pillow talk for me, I'm afraid.
Tom:
You have watched, I think, all the original Genius Game as well, because I think—
Daniel:
Oh,​ yes, yes.
Tom:
A lot of, people who enjoy that sort of thing found a way to watch it outside Korea.
Daniel:
Oh,​ yes. Very popular in our circles. I love a good... oh, it's almost... It's the closest you can get to board gaming on a TV show, I think. It's that complex or that intricate with rules and everything like that.
So, Charlotte, at the time of recording, I've not seen any of your shows. Really looking forward to seeing it, and I hope you do some good back backstabbing.
Matt:
What I think is funny is that today, on our team, we have two people who make terrible puns and one certified genius, so...
Tom:
And me, who falls into neither of those groups.
Matt:
Corre​ct.
Tom:
I can see you're all begging to get started. So let's see if you'll be barking up the wrong tree with question one.
Thank you to Mitchell Lapham for this question.
Why are some bags of crisps in Spain referred to as "ham flavoured, probably"?
I'll say that again.
Why are some bags of crisps in Spain referred to as "ham flavoured, probably"?
Matt:
That'​s interesting.
Daniel:
I think you could get away with that on most packets of crisps anyway, based on food laws. Eh, probably ham flavoured.
Matt:
Well,​ there— a lot of the flavours in crisps that I've had don't really taste like what they actually are meant to taste of. I think I heard the... smoky bacon crisps over here used to be vegetarian? Despite the name. It's probably not the case these days, so...
Tom:
Yeah, I think the flavouring was mostly smoke and salt there. I think there's one country where the same flavour that we use for prawn cocktail is labeled as tomato ketchup or something like that?
Daniel:
Oh!
Matt:
Well,​ that makes sense.
Charlotte:
​That probably makes me think it's like... maybe even they don't know. But that would be a serious food violation.
Daniel:
Do they have to declare... that— all their ingredients? Because I had a tube of Pringles that was mystery flavour the other day. And it was branded as mystery flavour. And it said on it, mystery flavour. You could read all the things on the back, and it was a very, it was a very oniony paprika type taste. I've got no idea what it was that I was eating.
Matt:
Yeah.
Daniel:
But​ you must at least be able to, given that these were sold, you must be able to sell mystery flavour crisps, but we're not gonna tell you what's in them.
Tom:
Yes, they'll have to mark flavourings on there, but they won't have to say specifically what they are. And they'll have to mark allergens. But other than that, they can hide the exact chemical compositions of that.
Matt:
Espec​ially if they're all E-numbered flavours rather than... or like chemical names rather than extracts of real things.
Tom:
Mhm.
Matt:
Every​one loves blind boxes and blind bags at the moment when it comes to toys. All these surprise toys, like a Kinder egg, but without the chocolate and more disappointment. The... Maybe they're doing that with crisps, so it's maybe they've got a multi-pack of vaguely meaty, could be ham, could be something else.
Daniel:
Are​ all the crisps in it ham flavoured, apart from one, which has got a special different flavour? And so they're "ham flavoured, probably" because there's a different crisp in there? Like one that fell on the factory floor. We stuck that one in as well.
Matt:
A single mustard one?
Daniel:
Yea​h, oooah! Oh, I love ham and mustard.
Tom:
Oh yeah, but all the mustard flavour on one crisp. That's crisp roulette. Chip roulette for the Americans, but yes, crisp roulette.
Matt:
Oh, I'd do that with a wasabi crisp.
Tom:
The way my clue here phrases it is: it's nothing to do with the dubious quality of the goods.
Matt:
That implies that the goods are dubious, but it's nothing to do with that.
Daniel:
Unf​ortunately, I don't know enough Spanish to know the words for
Matt:
Jamó​n?
Daniel:
'ha​m' or 'probably'.
Charlotte:
​Jamón.
Matt:
'Ham-​on' spelt with a J.
Tom:
Yeah.
Matt:
It's the, word probably similar— Is it a word play, maybe? I don't know much Spanish.
Daniel:
It feels like it's going to be a word play. If you put 'jamón' next to...
Matt:
Ham, probably.
Daniel:
Yea​h.
Matt:
Ham-b​ly.
Daniel:
The​n it's going to be a pun in some way.
Tom:
Yes, yes it is.
Daniel:
Hmm​.
Tom:
And if you knew certain words, this would be a lot easier.
Matt:
I'm guessing the word for 'flavoured' is something along the lines of 'fla-vour-ed'.
Charlotte:
​But would they want something dubious on their marketing? Like that they wouldn't know, you don't know what it is? It might just be this? I don't know.
Matt:
It could be for the lols though.
Cadburys over here, a couple of years ago, did mystery flavoured chocolate, where the insides were like a flavoured cream filling. And the flavouring, I tried reading the back of it, and the flavourings were just flavourings. And the two I tried were completely awful. But it— you had to guess what the flavour was.
And Fanta has done that with their drinks as well.
Daniel:
Yes​.
Matt:
So it's a trend, isn't it?
Tom:
Have a think about the geography involved. These are bags of crisps in Spain.
Daniel:
Oka​y, Iberian Peninsula.
Matt:
Oh, have they come over from Gibraltar, and someone's just scrawled on them in Spanish over the English?
Tom:
Wrong border.
Matt:
Catal​an, is it a Catalan issue? There's a lot of them!
Tom:
Extrem​ely disputed border!
Daniel:
The​re's still France and Portugal to go. Where are you gonna go next, Matt?
Charlotte:
​These are all better guesses than I had. I was thinking, you know how Italy's the shape of a boot? Maybe Spain is the shape of a hat?
Matt:
Ooh.
Daniel:
Ahh​.
Matt:
I'm trying to think of the other border. Because isn't there a microstate on one of the borders as well?
Daniel:
Oh,​ Andorra.
Matt:
There​ we go.
Daniel:
Tha​t's true.
Matt:
Is it the Andorran border?
Tom:
I'd forgotten Andorra.
Matt:
Wait,​ is it something like the Portuguese word for 'probably' is the same as the Spanish word for 'ham' and vice versa?
Tom:
Yes!
Matt:
What?​!
Tom:
Vice versa is incorrect, but... talk through what might be on that packet then.
Daniel:
It'​s so that they can sell it in both countries.
Matt:
Yes! So it's got it in Spanish and in Portuguese. And if you read it in Spain, rather than just "ham, ham" in two languages, it looks like "ham, probably".
Tom:
Yes, that is right. On there, you have 'sabor', flavour, and then you have "jamón presunto". 'Presunto' is the Portuguese for 'ham'. It is also the Spanish for 'probably'. So, just reading it in Spanish, you have "flavour: ham, probably".
Daniel:
Lov​ely.
Matt:
I love that I can just say something 'cause I think it's stupid and be right.
Tom:
Each of our guests has brought a question with them. We will start today with Matt.
Matt:
This question has been sent in by Stefan Teffy.
If you pass in front of the rabbit, you are disqualified. If you only just pass in front of it, it might be deadly. Which sport is this, and what is the hazard?
If you pass in front of the rabbit, you are disqualified. If you only just pass in front of it, it might be deadly. Which sport is this, and what is the hazard?
Daniel:
Oka​y, team. Communal effort here, because I haven't got a clue.
Charlotte:
​A rabbit, and that it can be deadly.
Daniel:
Yea​h. I'm now thinking of Monty Python. And the killer rabbit there.
Tom:
I was thinking greyhound racing. I realise that putting 'you' in a question for that is a bit weird given there's three humans involved here, but I think the thing on a dog track that flies out in front of the dogs for 'em to chase is called the rabbit. And I'm thinking that like if the dog somehow overtakes the rabbit, I don't see why that would disqualify them, but if they get just in front of it and trip up, it could be deadly?
I'm worried because either... this is something that I've— I've just nailed it, or... i'm completely and utterly wrong, and it's nothing to do with greyhound racing.
Matt:
One slight question here.
Tom:
Yep.
Matt:
Would​ you call greyhound racing a sport? 'Cause I don't know either. It's not greyhound racing.
Tom:
Okay, fine. Fine.
Daniel:
You​ had me, Tom. I thought, oh, he's got it. He's nailed this. This is perfect.
Tom:
Thank you to Producer David who has told me it's actually called the mechanical hare, not the rabbit. Fine, fine.
Matt:
You don't wanna confuse that with a mechanical rabbit.
Daniel:
The​re would be hell toupée for that. Hair.
Matt:
Aeh.
Tom:
Hair, ah.
Matt:
Heh.
Tom:
Yeah, no, rabbit, ha— Okay.
Daniel:
Alr​ight, so pass in front, you're disqualified. But pass just ahead of it, was deadly.
Tom:
Yeah.
Daniel:
Wha​t are you passing? Wind or water? That's the next question. Oh, yeah. Passing water on something with an electrical— Oh, you could be an electrical— No, no, let's not go there.
Charlotte:
​Maybe there's something, something spiky or something like, that can trip you up, but only if you were to stand on it at that moment. But if you take like a rather large leap, you would be in front, and you wouldn't get tripped up? No?
Tom:
So it could be some sort of extreme sport. Like something that involves... parachutes or something like that, where deadly really means if you mess this up... you... you are at higher... you are at higher risk than a footballer might be.
Matt:
I would say that is the case.
Daniel:
It'​s not the nickname for sort of the secondary chute that you have in with your parachute, is it, or something? Let's deploy the rabbit!
Matt:
I'm gonna give you a clue here. So, when you said about passing water, you are completely nowhere near it, but you are slightly closer. The rabbit is an alternative system to something else.
Daniel:
So it's not a physical rabbit? It's not a cute little bunny?
Matt:
Yeah,​ it's not an animal, but it is moving at some speed.
Charlotte:
​You said far from water. Is it the air then?
Matt:
Water​'s closer.
Charlotte:
​Okay.
Tom:
So, sailing or... water skiing or something like that.
Matt:
Try one of those.
Charlotte:
​His eyes looked brighter at sailing. So I think we should go with sailing.
Tom:
It's Matt! His eyes always look bright for some reason. I dunno how he does it.
Daniel:
The​re's a lot of nautical terminology. The rabbit could easily be... some form of device on the boat.
Charlotte:
​Is the aim of the race or the sport to try and catch up to the rabbit? Are we following the rabbit?
Daniel:
But​ not overtaking it, because that would disqualify you.
Matt:
Yeah.
Charlotte:
​So does the rabbit lead us to someplace, if it's a moving... part?
Daniel:
A different boat, say?
Matt:
You'r​e going in the right lines here. So the— just to recap the question here... it was, which sport is this? And sailing's close enough for me. And what is the hazard?
Tom:
Oh?
Matt:
I'll give you another little hint here. In the Olympic version of this event, the race starts differently.
Daniel:
Whe​re... You can catch a crab in something, can't you? Is that wrestling instead? That's not sailing, is it?
Tom:
I have no idea, Dan.
Daniel:
We definitely catch a crab in something. Or is that where the line snags in something, or am I thinking of something entirely different here?
Tom:
I mean, the other three of us are all thinking of the same joke, right?
Matt:
Yeah.​ Think about a type of sport where it's hard to mark the course.
Daniel:
We'​re going to be on the water here. So how do— is— Oh! Right, okay.
Tom:
Oh?
Daniel:
Are​ we dealing very specifically with the start of a race here? Is this where we are going? Okay. What, so if you're starting a sailing race, if you all need to be lined up, it's really difficult to judge. So would it be something in either the water or just underneath it, that will raise... to start a race? To mark the starting line?
Matt:
You were going so close to the right direction there, and then you took a little swerve.
Daniel:
Hur​rah!
Matt:
You'r​e so nearly there.
Charlotte:
​Is it rather the boundaries of the race? And if you were to go outside of it, you would either completely sink a ship because it's something sharp, and it will put holes into your ro— boat. Or if you went straight in sa— like sailing straight outside of it, you'd be disqualified, 'cause you're no longer inside the range of the race.
Matt:
You are so close. It's a way of marking the start of the race.
Tom:
You were talking about something that raised up, Dan. Maybe it's something that lowers down or gets out of the way.
Daniel:
Tha​t would probably make more sense. I was thinking like the Grand National, where they sort of have to do a sort of a running start, and they have a... they have something in the way that rises to get outta the horse's way. But that would make less sense for—
Tom:
Deadly​ is a heck of a thing to use to start a race.
Matt:
If you pass in front of the rabbit, you're disqualified. If you only just pass in front of it, it might be deadly.
Daniel:
Bec​ause it could somehow tip your boat upside down. I think.
Tom:
Is it just another boat?
Matt:
Ding,​ ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding.
Tom:
It is, it is! Right at the start, when I was on about the mechanical hare, it's the same thing. You're chasing the rabbit.
Matt:
The rabbit is a speedboat, which sails on a known path from offshore towards the beach.
Tom:
And so if you pass just in front of it...
Matt:
You get hit by a speedboat.
Tom:
That's​— yeah.
Daniel:
Tha​t'll hurt.
Tom:
That hurt.
Matt:
And if you pass quite a bit in front of it, you're just setting off too early.
Daniel:
Ah,​ so... is the speedboat going across the line? Oh, so the speedboat is literally making a wake, which is the start line. It's— That's how you are painting on top of the sea. But why is it called the rabbit?
Tom:
Same reason that the greyhounds chase a rabbit. It's a thing in front that everyone else is chasing.
Daniel:
Oh,​ I see.
Matt:
In races where there may be 50 wind surfers or more, it's not practical to use the Olympic system where you mustn't cross an imaginary start line between a boat and a buoy before the race begins.
Instead, a speedboat called the rabbit is used. It sails on a known path from offshore to towards the beach.
If you pass in front of the rabbit boat, you're disqualified. If you pass just in front of the boats, you'll be injured or worse.
Though popular in windsurfing, this type of start is also used in other sailing competitions.
Tom:
Thank you to Hugo Bouma for this next question.
To the west of Rotterdam, in the Netherlands, you can read a 61-word poem. Why has it been described as the longest poem in the world, and why is the first half usually read faster than the second half?
I'll say that again.
To the west of Rotterdam, in the Netherlands, you can read a 61-word poem. Why has it been described as the longest poem in the world, and why is the first half usually read faster than the second half?
Matt:
Rotte​rdam's the Netherlands?
Tom:
Yes.
Matt:
On the coast?
Tom:
Yes.
Matt:
I suppose the whole of the Netherlands is on the coast. When it's not under the coast.
Tom:
Rotter​dam, to be clear, is a little bit inland. Just 'cause if you go west from the Dutch coast, you do in fact find the ocean. So just, yeah, west of Rotterdam.
Daniel:
61 words isn't very long. I'm not a poet, but I could make a longer poem than that.
Charlotte:
​Perhaps it's longer when it's... verbally said.
Daniel:
Oh?
Charlotte:
​Maybe, maybe, maybe... Wait, is the— is— Oh my god. It's gonna be embarrassing, but is the... language spoken German?
Matt:
Dutch
Charlotte:
​Dutch?
Matt:
In Netherlands. But it doesn't necessarily mean that the poem is in the language of the country that it's written in.
Daniel:
Tru​e.
Matt:
It could be in Welsh.
Charlotte:
​In which case, so I think some Welsh words are very, very long when—
Matt:
Yeah,​ like both German and Welsh can compound their words.
Daniel:
A deliberately, a poem written using deliberately long words to trip up the reader. That'd be fun.
Tom:
That sounds like a good puzzle, but it is, unfortunately, in Dutch.
Matt:
That'​s, that's not very fair on the Dutch, Tom. I've had a silly idea, and I'm kind of worried, because every— the last few times I've had silly ideas on this podcast, it's been right. And it's not fully formed, so I can't see how it would be right.
Daniel:
Mm.
Matt:
But you said the first half... is quicker than the second half?
Tom:
Yeah, it's usually read faster.
Matt:
And I'm thinking... it's kind of coastal around there, so I don't know how... the first half could get covered up by the tide before the second half, so you're running along with the water to read it. But, that's the first thing that's popped into my head, why it could be faster at one end than the other.
Daniel:
Oh,​ but then it would be physically long. I see where you ge— where you're going with that. So there's some form of physical length that it's written out.
Matt:
Yeah.
Daniel:
Lon​g.
Matt:
Like an Antony Gormley, lots of stuff on the beach going out to sea. He's a sculpture person who puts effigies of himself in— on beaches.
Tom:
You have solved the first part. This is a physically long poem, written down about 900 metres, nearly 1,000 yards. So why is the first half usually read faster than the second half?
Daniel:
Bec​ause you're still enthusiastic at that point in time.
Tom:
I do like that you described the west of the Netherlands as "it's a bit coastal 'round there". That— It is. They're very proud of it.
Matt:
I think I've got the topic. Is it— would you say it was a stellar poem?
Tom:
Why do you say that?
Matt:
I was trying to think of things that... are regularly depicted as long public art... with stuff bunched up at one end and spread out at the other. And it's planet trails, where you have all of the planets down like a cycle path or whatever. And to get from Mercury to Earth is pretty quick, but to get all the way to Jupiter takes forever. So, I don't know if it's a poem about the stars and planets that's laid out with each line at the same relative distance as the distance between the planets.
Tom:
It's such a lovely picture. And it's entirely wrong. I'm sorry, Matt! I'm sorry, Matt. We've definitely had questions about... model solar systems before on the show. This is unfortunately not one of them. There is one part of your answer that's right though, Matt.
Matt:
Okay.
Tom:
You did say a couple of key words in there and another Dutch stereotype.
Matt:
A Dutch stereotype. Oh, cycle paths. I said cycle paths.
Tom:
You did.
Daniel:
Is it going to be— it's— The Netherlands is quite flat, but is the, is it going to be on a hill in some way? So that you read the first half a bit quicker, 'cause you're going down the hill, and then sort of the second half is on flatter ground?
Tom:
Yes. This is the Beneluxtunnel in Rotterdam, which carries a motorway, a metro line, and a bike path under the Nieuwe Maas River. Along the bike path, the wall tiles form the words of a poem by the famous Rotterdam poet Jules Deelder, stretching 900 yards from south to north. The middle of the tunnel goes down to 24 metres. The first part of the poem is read more quickly, and then you're going uphill to leave the tunnel, and that's the second half of the poem.
Matt:
That must be the biggest slope grade in all of the Netherlands.
Tom:
Yes. Yes.
Charlotte:
​I like Matt's idea with the stars better.
Matt:
We should commission it. We should go do it ourselves. I'll go get a bit of chalk and write it out.
Tom:
Yeah, that— to be fair, that's the sort of thing that you can just build and probably no one's gonna complain about it.
Daniel:
Wha​t rhymes with Uranus?
Tom:
And we move on!
Charlotte, we will go over to you for the next question, please.
Charlotte:
​Okay. This question has been sent in by Elena and Alessandro.
Officials in the Brdy region of the Czech Republic were frustrated. Seven years of red tape had held up the permits for a major restructuring of the Vltava River Basin. Suddenly, the job was done in a few days, for $1.2 million less than planned. How?
And again.
Officials in the Brdy region of the Czech Republic were frustrated. Seven years of red tape had held up the permits for a major restructuring of the Volva River Basin. Suddenly the job was done in a few days, for $1.2 million less than planned. How?
Matt:
Restr​ucturing of a river basin?
Daniel:
Pul​l the plug out. There you go, done.
Tom:
That sort of happened once in history.
Matt:
Yeah,​ we're doing a question on it, right?
Charlotte:
​This happened?
Tom:
Thereâ​€” well, okay. The plug thing, there was a salt mine in... somewhere, I wanna say Louisiana, but they don't have salt there. Somewhere in the US. And they mined a bit too much, and they punctured some thing somewhere. And the entire lake drained itself through the salt mine over the course of a couple of days.
Daniel:
Ooh​.
Tom:
Just the colossal whirlpool. Because of course it starts small, but it's salt. So the water just keeps washing it and washing and washing, but— and by the end, you no longer have a lake. You have a cavern.
Daniel:
Mm.
Matt:
It's the salty equivalent of the Darvaza crater in Turkmenistan or wherever the where they go. "Oh, there's a bit of gas here, we'll set it on fire, it'll go away." And it's still burning.
Tom:
Yes. Oh, thank you, Producer David. That is Lake Peigneur, a brackish lake in Louisiana, I did get that right. I didn't know there was salt in Louisiana, alright.
Matt:
Not anymore! So... a restructuring of a river basin, I'm assuming they're not changing how you wash your hands in the toilets. And it's in Czechia. The "Brady" region? The only thing I know about that is that he played American football. Yeah, I made a sports joke, and it was terrible.
Tom:
Yeah, you made a sports joke. I was thinking natural disaster. I was thinking that like $1.2 million was the entire budget for this thing. And actually by luck, a... a flood happened. Something hap— A giant rainstorm just restructured the basin for them, coincidentally, the exact way they wanted.
But that's getting very close to act of god there. Well, it could be what you were saying about mining.
Matt:
Maybe​ someone was mining nearby and dug up.
Charlotte:
​So I will say... you're very much on the right track. It is natural. Less a disaster. And bang on, the original budget was $1.2 million.
Daniel:
Oka​y. Because what, in terms of restructuring, there's not many ways you can really restructure a river. You can make it flow the other way if you really wanted to. That has been done in history.
I think it's, in, Illinois, the Chicago River, initially went into one of the Great Lakes, but they were... due to pollution regions, they went, okay, we need to actually reverse the flow of this.
So it can be done, but it requires a heck of a lot of effort. And that doesn't feel like that's what's going on here. You couldn't do that for a million.
Tom:
And continuous effort.
Daniel:
Yes​.
Matt:
And the only thing I can think of restructuring, river basin wise is... well, I'm not fully certain of the term 'river basin'. All I can think of is the LA River, where that was just a concreted... sluice, is that the term? It's just a channel for the water to run down. That, you know, you can't have a act of god do that unless there's a lot of fly tipping of concrete.
Tom:
That would be an act of god though, wouldn't it? There's the river. All of a sudden it's channelised with neat concrete, and no one knows why. That, honestly, that happens overnight. It's pretty good evidence.
Daniel:
It'​s a miracle.
Charlotte:
​I would say, Daniel, you're pretty close. Like you, you... Instead of having the river turn completely 180, what other things could be used to kind of redirect the water, do you think?
Matt:
Oxbow​ lakes!
Daniel:
Yes​.
Matt:
That'​s the only term I learned in geography at school, is oxbow lakes.
Daniel:
So,​ sort of cutting one off or— You wouldn't wanna make one. You'd wanna cut one off, wouldn't you, really? Oh, so if there was a big, heavy flood, that could easily be the final thing that cuts off the oxbow lake and makes the river straight again.
Matt:
Becau​se oxbow lakes are when a river gets all wiggly, and then it gets even wigglier, and then suddenly it finds a shortcut, which leaves a random bit of water, which is wiggly when the river's gone straight again. And that's the oxbow lake. But yeah, a flood can force that to happen.
Tom:
As anyone who's done year nine geography knows and understands. It's the one thing everyone remembers.
Charlotte:
​I also do remember that, and I always think about like a little, you know, something like this. But how about instead of making it straight, we're literally boom, boom? You know, redirection.
Matt:
Oh, it went round a corner.
Charlotte:
​Not exactly.
Matt:
I'm imagining... it flooded, and then it found a new course, because it turned whatever natural ground was in the way into sediment, and then that became an easier way for it to go. So it took a different route, thanks to the flooding moving all of the earth out of the way.
Tom:
Or it could be the opposite, that it's a rockfall or something like that. Like, the river is going this way. We've been intending to block it and move it, and then all of a sudden, this mountain's collapsed.
Matt:
Beave​rs!
Tom:
I—
Matt:
Beave​rs.
Charlotte:
​Beavers. Please...
Matt:
Beave​rs?
Charlotte:
​Continue.
Daniel:
Oh,​ no.
Tom:
No! No!
Daniel:
No,​ I'm not having this.
Matt:
Being​ silly strikes again.
Daniel:
So it is the opposite. They wanted to not have a straight river, but move it away from being a straight river.
Matt:
And then suddenly, some beavers built a dam themselves without anyone noticing.
Daniel:
Oh.
Matt:
And they woke up one morning, and the river was now doing—
Daniel:
Job​ done.
Matt:
And then they put the $1.2 million in their pocket and walked away whistling.
Charlotte:
​That is exactly it.
Tom:
You don't need an environmental impact study when the environment is doing it for you.
Charlotte:
​The beavers were like, "I don't care about any permits. I'm just gonna go do this."
Matt:
Oh yeah, you said seven years of red tape! No one was there! It's just all blocked off, and no one allowed in, 'cause they're planning this thing. And then suddenly, the beavers turn up in their high-vis and their hard hats.
Charlotte:
​Yeah, so a colony of eight beavers had built the dams in the same places that the administration actually wanted, in order to redirect the water. And it turns out that the way that the beavers did it was even better than the way that they had designed it in the first place.
Daniel:
Oh,​ amazing. I— They must have bribed them. They must be— must have bribed the beavers somehow.
Tom:
Thank you to Ben Kitchen for sending this question in.
In 2023, rookie NBA player Nick Smith Jr. signed with the Charlotte Hornets, where he'd wear shirt number 8. Why did this have the potential to reduce the team's expected revenue?
I'll say that one more time.
In 2023, rookie NBA player Nick Smith Jr. signed with the Charlotte Hornets, where he'd wear shirt number 8. Why did this have the potential to reduce the team's expected revenue?
Daniel:
Ter​rible player. He's actually a golfer.
Tom:
That's​ a reverse Michael Jordan.
Charlotte:
​I'm just thinking, does the, like the— Does his name or initials and then the number 8 spell something that might not be allowed?
Daniel:
Oh,​ it's gonna be something on that, isn't it? That number 8 is important.
Charlotte:
​It's a lucky number though, so...
Tom:
Yes.
Charlotte:
​In Chinese culture. So, I feel like...
Daniel:
The​ Charlotte Hornets are gonna have a nickname, and that nickname's gonna be something, isn't it? And we're gonna need to know the nickname. And if you put the number eight after it, it's gonna be like a rude word. No, well, maybe, but then the number, having the number 8 on a shirt is not unusual.
So it must be this very specific person, plus team combo.
Matt:
"Smit​h 8" is what it'll say on the back of the shirt, right?
Tom:
"Smith​ Jr, 8", but yes.
Matt:
Smith​'s a very common name.
Daniel:
Ooh​.
Matt:
Eight​'s a very low number. Maybe there's been a Smith Jr. in number eight position before, and they don't need to buy more merch or something, or...
Tom:
Yet again, Matt, you have nailed it.
Daniel:
Wha​t?
Matt:
Reall​y?
Tom:
Talk through what might have happened here.
Charlotte:
​Nick Smith's dad was on the Charlotte Hornets before, and they already sold his jersey with "Smith" and the number 8 on it. And no one else wants to buy new ones.
Tom:
It wasn't a relation, but that's basically it was. There was already a Smith Jr. the previous season, Dennis Smith Jr., who had also worn number eight.
Matt:
Why would they give them the same number? That's terrible for revenue.
Daniel:
Wel​l, yes indeed.
Tom:
Yes, you're absolutely right. Usually when a new signing occurs, some fans will buy shirts with the new player's name on it. They didn't need to. They already had a shirt that said "Smith Jr." and "8".
Charlotte:
​Matt, you're on fire. Can I have your brain for the day?
Matt:
I realise the way this game works is to make silly jokes around the questions to make them last longer. And that's what I've been trying to do, because I haven't thought any of these would actually be the answer. Sorry.
Tom:
Then we will go to Dan for the next question. Whenever you're ready.
Daniel:
Oke​y doke. This question has been sent in by... by Dan Peake.
Tom:
Oh, no.
Matt:
Oh God.
Tom:
Alrigh​t.
Matt:
Oh god.
Daniel:
I delight in this question.
In 1652, a new door was installed in the wall of a church. As a result, someone had their feet chopped off. How?
Tom:
I shouldn't— Sorry. I shouldn't laugh at the phrase "someone had their feet chopped off". It was the way you said it.
Daniel:
In 1652, a new door was installed in the wall of a church. As a result, someone had their feet chopped off. How?
Matt:
What?
Daniel:
Thi​s is one of my— I've listened to Lateral a fair bit. This is a classic Lateral question that starts perfectly normally, and then ends with, "and then someone had their feet chopped off". It's classic.
Matt:
So it's not a real door. They're not real feet. "Church" actually means something else. And "chopped" is actually a non-English word that sounds like the English word "chopped".
Daniel:
No comment.
Matt:
I don't know where to start with this.
Charlotte:
​Construction crew were really bad, and you need some new people.
Matt:
I suppose health and safety standards in 1652.
Tom:
Yeah. I did once— Sorry, I'm gonna drop a travel story in here.
I once visited Guédelon Castle in France, which is a... medieval castle they are building with medieval techniques as like experimental archaeology.
And there are just little things they've had to make and do to comply with this century's laws. They are wearing hard hats, but they're camouflaged so they look like something that might fit in in that century. They are wearing steel toe cap boots, but you wouldn't know it 'cause they've got overshoes over, so it looks right.
But with the exception of that, you know, there's maybe a few more railings around them than there might otherwise be.
Matt:
I'm just imagining hard hats with wigs on. In 1600s, doors to churches, and in fact, to the present day, tend to be wood.
Tom:
Yes.
Matt:
If it's a real door. Churches can have... normal sized doors, and they can have ridiculously huge, ornate ones.
Daniel:
Kno​wledge bombs from Matt here.
Tom:
Matt Gray's Knowledge Bombs is actually his competing podcast.
Matt:
That sounds way too laddy and misinformation-y for my liking. Churches have... famous people buried in them. Maybe someone got exhumed and didn't fit in through the new door.
Tom:
Matt, I have the horrible feeling you've just solved it again.
Matt:
Surel​y— no! I'm taking the piss here about exhuming someone. How can that be the answer?
Tom:
If this is Westminster Abbey, I.
Daniel:
Mat​t... you're absolutely wrong.
Matt:
Oh, yes!
Tom:
You sold that so well, Dan!
Daniel:
Oh,​ dear.
Tom:
So I was thinking that it was somewhere like Westminster Abbey, where a lot of famous people interred, and they had to move a grave. And the— in the 17th century, the easiest thing to do is just go, "Ah, just, crop that bit off, and it'll be fine."
Daniel:
Yes​, yeah, lovely. Cropping is a great term here.
Tom:
Mhm.
Daniel:
Not​ that, but that's a good idea. I will say, many people today wish this— that this hadn't happened.
Matt:
What I do like is I made a joke about someone being exhumed, and you were all shocked. Not because I made a joke about someone being exhumed, but you were shocked 'cause I might have got the answer right.
Charlotte:
​Many people wish that this didn't happen now?
Daniel:
Yea​h.
Charlotte:
​Is— Was the person alive when their feet was chopped up?
Daniel:
No.
Charlotte:
​So it is from a dead body as well. And maybe it was the body of a rather famous... person?
Matt:
Feat can also mean accomplishment.
Daniel:
Oh!​ You had your accomplishments chopped off. Oh, that sounds painful.
Matt:
Well,​ the door could have been an ornate one, listing someone's— people that have achieved a thing. And the person at the bottom of the door, the door could have been the wrong size, and they could have chopped their feat off this list of accomplishments written on the door.
Daniel:
Cle​ver. And again, absolutely wrong. It is F-E-E-T.
Tom:
So why would someone need to chop the feet off a dead body to install a door?
Daniel:
I'm​ gonna steer you away from the dead body part.
Tom:
Oh, you did say they were dead though, right?
Daniel:
The​y certainly weren't alive.
Charlotte:
​Was the new door like a protective casing to keep hold of a mummified body that you would want to— that you would want to preserve for years to come?
Daniel:
Jus​t an ordinary door.
Tom:
Hmm.
Matt:
I was gonna say, you can have doors to tombs as part of... churches.
Daniel:
I will say that no actual injury took place.
Matt:
Statu​e?
Daniel:
Not​ quite, but we're getting there now.
Matt:
Taxid​ermy? Was it Jeremy Benham? That's a taxidermic human.
Tom:
It is, yeah, that's...
Charlotte:
​He's in UCL too.
Tom:
Oh, yeah, you— Wait, have you seen Bentham's body then, Charlotte?
Charlotte:
​I have, yes. It's in the main campus.
Tom:
Yeah, well, most of it. I think his head's stored somewhere else 'cause it's a bit too gross. But they— it's a wax head on Benham there. But the rest of his body is sat in that cabinet.
Matt:
It's just in a corridor as well. You can just walk in and look at it. So it wasn't Jeremy Bentham? No, he was probably not even born by then.
Tom:
Could this be someone depicted on stained glass or something like this, where they have to crop off part of the artwork to install the door?
Daniel:
We'​re getting there now, yes.
Matt:
Oh.
Tom:
Okay.
Matt:
Well,​ did the door get installed first, and then on the other side of the door, some windows needed going in, and for some reason... the art needed to go through that door, and then it wouldn't fit 'cause the room was small, so it needed to be chopped? You know, when you're trying to get your IKEA furniture around the corner of the stairs? Pivot.
Daniel:
No,​ no stained glasses involved. Just, just this door.
Matt:
The person was dead at this time. This could still be a depiction of the person when they were alive.
Tom:
And it could be some famous artwork that is now missing its feet. Because in the 17th century, it wasn't considered sacrilegious to chop off a bit of an artwork 'cause you need to put a new door in.
Daniel:
Tom​'s getting there. You're getting there.
Matt:
Okay.
Tom:
So the question is, what's the church? What's the artwork?
Matt:
Miche​langelo's David?
Daniel:
Nop​e.
Tom:
Could be the Sistine Chapel though. It could be Michelangelo's, one of... It could be Adam. On The Creation of Adam, because the Sistine Chapel needed a new door.
Daniel:
Get​ting close. It's not the Sistine Chapel, and it's not Michelangelo. But we're in the right realm of things now.
Matt:
My brain just said Botticelli, and part of me is thinking, is that an artist or an F1 driver or both? I'm thinking both.
Daniel:
It'​s a different Ninja Turtle, if that helps.
Matt:
I can't, like, all I can think of is the bloody Chipmunks now.
Tom:
Alvin,​ Simon, Theodore. The famous artists, yeah.
Matt:
Rafae​l?
Daniel:
No.
Tom:
Charlo​tte, help us out. What are the other Ninja Turtles?
Charlotte:
​I'm so sorry. I think I was four.
Matt:
April​—
Tom:
Oh no!
Matt:
April​ O'Neill.
Tom:
Leonar​do. Leonardo da Vinci. It's gonna be Leonardo da Vinci.
Daniel:
Uh-​huh.
Matt:
Oh, the man. The man.
Tom:
The Vitruvian Man.
Matt:
Vitru​vian Man.
Daniel:
Not​ that one.
Matt:
The other man.
Charlotte:
​The man without his feet.
Daniel:
So this took place in Milan.
Matt:
The Milan man.
Daniel:
The​re is a very famous work by Leonardo that's on a wall. People think it might be a painting. It's a mural.
Matt:
Just a sec. I've been to the cathedral in Milan. Is it that cathedral?
Daniel:
Bas​ilica is what it says here.
Tom:
Oh, it's the, the— It's the painting with the, the, the, the disciples and the—
Matt:
Oh!
Daniel:
Yes​.
Matt:
The Last Supper.
Tom:
Thank you!
Daniel:
The​re it is!
Tom:
Are Jesus's feet not in The Last Supper because someone needed to install a door?
Daniel:
Cor​rect.
Matt:
Wow!
Daniel:
Cor​rect.
Matt:
It's like... any women posting photos of themselves on the internet these days because of freaks, but with Jesus, and in the 1600s.
Daniel:
If you take a look at The Last Supper, Jesus' feet are not there. And they would have been there. The church wanted to put a door there instead. And it's this giant mural, so it's— it easily fits there.
Matt:
Is there just a little gap in the painting, so then the door can fit in underneath it?
Daniel:
It'​s underneath the table. I encourage you to take a look at it 'cause it's something you just won't have spotted about the picture.
Tom:
Fortun​ately, The Last Supper is definitely out of copyright these days. So in the video version, I think we can actually see it. And now I'm looking at it, oh yeah, that's a door.
Daniel:
It'​s a door. There's no feet there. You could see other disciples' feet.
Matt:
There​'s a door!
Tom:
How have I never noticed the door at the bottom? I mean, just content aware fill it. It'll be fine, but.
Daniel:
So Leonardo da Vinci painted The Last Supper in the 1490s on a wall of the Basilica de Santa Maria delle Grazie in Milan.
And then in 1652, they just put a door at the wall, and they put it in this lower centre of the fresco so that Christ's feet are now no longer visible.
Tom:
Which brings me to the question from the top of the show, sent in by the very Finnish sounding Leo Taanila.
In Finland, what food item is sometimes jokingly called 'Moomin meat'?
Does anyone want to take a quick guess at that before I tell the audience?
Matt:
Tofu?
Daniel:
Oh.​ Yeah, it'll be something white and squishy. Because Moomins are white. So I'm assuming... something.
Tom:
What are the Moomins, for the audience that don't know?
Matt:
They'​re white, hippo-like creatures that live in a mysterious area in the north of Finland.
Tom:
Yes, you did miss the word fictional there, but yes.
Daniel:
It'​s like the haggis in Scotland.
Matt:
What?​ They're fictional!
Charlotte:
​They sell cards, you know, like greeting cards, moomin.com.
Tom:
Yes, there's a huge number of novels, comic books, TV adaptations. They are white, soft, and round.
Matt:
Mozza​rella.
Tom:
Yes!
Daniel:
Who​a!
Tom:
Yes, why?
Matt:
They'​ve got big round noses, and mozzarella balls are spherical and white and squishy.
Tom:
Yeah. Moomins are known for their white, soft, and round physique, which can jokingly be compared to the texture of mozzarella cheese.
Congratulations to all our players for running the gauntlet.
What's going on in your lives? Where can people find you?
We will start with Dan.
Daniel:
You​ can find me on Twitch at quizzydan, and various social medias. Just search for quizzydan. That's where you'll find me.
Tom:
And Matt.
Matt:
Go to mattg.co.uk to find links to all of my social media and my YouTube.
Tom:
And Charlotte.
Charlotte:
​You can catch up on episodes of The Genius Game on ITVX.
Tom:
And if you wanna know more about this show, you can do that at lateralcast.com. We are at @lateralcast basically everywhere, there are regular video highlights at youtube.com/lateralc​ast, and there are full video episodes on Spotify.
Thank you very much to Charlotte Yeung.
Charlotte:
​Thank you!
Tom:
Matt Gray.
Matt:
Also soft, round, and white.
Tom:
And Dan Peake.
Daniel:
Tha​nk you.
Tom:
I've been Tom Scott, and that's been Lateral.
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