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Episode 147: The blank homework
Published 1st August, 2025
Ali Spagnola, Evan Heling and Katelyn Heling face questions about edible engineering, careful characters and African airlines.
HOST: Tom Scott. QUESTION PRODUCER: David Bodycombe. EDITED BY: Julie Hassett at The Podcast Studios, Dublin. MUSIC: Karl-Ola Kjellholm ('Private Detective'/'Agrumes', courtesy of epidemicsound.com). ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS: Raquel, Matthew B., Crashington, Jacob, Lucas, Bob Weisz. FORMAT: Pad 26 Limited/Labyrinth Games Ltd. EXECUTIVE PRODUCERS: David Bodycombe and Tom Scott.
Transcription by Caption+
Tom:
What rule gave rise to the self-proclaimed title of 'salad engineer'?
The answer to that at the end of the show. My name's Tom Scott, and this is Lateral.
This is something of a maker special on Lateral, as we welcome back three familiar faces to the show who are all looking to better their performance from their last appearance.
Like a butcher's shop on Mount Everest, the stakes have never been higher.
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Katelyn:
Br​avo.
SFX:
(Evan and Katelyn laugh)
Tom:
Here to face a grilling once more, we start with Ali Spagnola. Welcome back to the show.
Ali:
Hi, thanks. So glad to be here.
Tom:
Last time on the show, I don't think we really appreciated just what a wide range of ridiculous things you build and make and work with. What have you been doing lately?
Ali:
I'm trying to make Crocs out of wood. Because that's sensible.
Katelyn:
(applauds lightly)
Tom:
Ooh.
Evan:
(chuckles)
Katelyn:
I love that.
Tom:
I was trying to portmanteau 'Crocs' and 'clogs' there, and it really doesn't work. Crogs?
Ali:
(wheezes)
Tom:
Crogs.
Katelyn:
Cl​ocs? Yeah, that's difficult.
Ali:
So we'll see. But the— yeah. the world's most comfortable shoe. I'm just trying to make them extremely uncomfortable.
Tom:
(chuckles)
SFX:
(Evan and Katelyn laugh)
Tom:
Is that carving and polishing and everything?
Ali:
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm not even that far into it, but it... it's happening, hopefully.
Tom:
Well, very best of luck to you with the project and with the show today.
You are joined by two people in the same room who will always hide their notes from each other when they ask the question.
Evan and Katelyn.
Katelyn:
Ye​s.
Tom:
Welcom​e back to the show. How are you doing?
Evan:
We're​ doing good.
Katelyn:
We​'re good. Happy to be back.
Evan:
I'm ready to exercise my brain again.
SFX:
(Tom and Katelyn laugh)
Tom:
Well, thank you very much for coming back.
Last time I saw you, you had just completed the annual pumpkin.
Katelyn:
Oh​ wow, yeah.
Evan:
That'​s crazy.
Katelyn:
(giggles)
Evan:
A lot's happened since then.
Tom:
Yeah?
Katelyn:
Ye​ah, we've... been working on a few interesting things. Evan built a custom ergonomic laptop... that is transforming.
Tom:
Okay, so that— How do I describe this to the people watching in audio? That...
Katelyn:
(blurts laugh)
Tom:
Is that so you don't have to look down at the screen?
Evan:
Yes.
Tom:
You can keep your— So it's on telescoping arms, the screen. It just kind of comes up to any height?
Katelyn:
Ye​ah, it's selfie sticks.
SFX:
(Evan and Katelyn laugh)
Tom:
That's​ wonderful!
Wait, so hold on. Now I'm confused. Did you reroute all the wiring through the selfie sticks? Where does it go?
Evan:
It's Bluetooth. So it's wireless. It's actually just a tablet on top and a Bluetooth keyboard joined together with laser-cut parts and selfie sticks and camera hinges.
Tom:
That is magical!
Evan:
(cackles warmly)
Tom:
That's​ so good! Alright, well, very best of luck with the show today.
No more mincing of words. We will get straight to the meat of the matter.
There's a lot of meat puns I'm butchering there.
SFX:
(Evan and Katelyn laugh)
Ali:
I'm so— Ohh!
Tom:
Chop chop! Here's question one.
This question's been sent in by Jacob.
Why could the flag of Guinea be seen on Air Mali airplanes?
I'll say that again.
Why could the flag of Guinea be seen on Air Mali airplanes?
Evan:
First​ off, I need to figure out, what is an Air "Marley" airplane?
Katelyn:
Ye​ah, where is that airline from?
Evan:
Becau​se it would make sense if it was from Guinea.
Katelyn:
Ye​ah.
SFX:
(group laughing in turn)
Katelyn:
Th​at would be very obvious.
Ali:
There you go.
Evan:
It's just two words I don't fully understand. Ali, do you have any insight?
Ali:
Yeah, the— It is a word salad. Didn't we open with the salad thing?
Katelyn:
Ye​ah.
Ali:
Sounds​ like you threw magnetic poetry onto my fridge, and now it's a question.
Tom:
I think this might be an accent thing. Because you will have heard that as the name "Marley" with an R in it, because I have a British accent.
This is M-A-L-I, the African country.
Evan:
Oh! Mali!
Katelyn:
Oh​!
Evan:
(laughs heartily)
Tom:
Yep.
Katelyn:
Ye​p.
Ali:
Okay.
Katelyn:
Th​at's what happened.
Evan:
That makes more sense.
Tom:
You know what? I don't actually know what the local pronunciation of that country is. I just said it with my accent.
Ali:
I was just trying to hide the fact that I didn't know geometry. Geo— geography.
SFX:
(others laughing)
Tom:
Geogra​phy. So yes, this is the flag of Guinea, the country, seen on Air Mali, which is the now-defunct national airline for the African country.
Evan:
Well,​ I know that... in Africa, there have been a lot of rearranging of countries and renaming of countries, and there's been more shuffling of that in Africa to some degree than in other continents, as political and geopolitical situations change and stuff like that.
So I wonder if it was something like that.
Katelyn:
Or​, I wonder if it's just something where... you know, one line of planes was purchased by...
Evan:
Oh, one country.
Katelyn:
an​other country or something.
Evan:
Yeah.​ I can see that too.
Ali:
Is the Mali flag... Is that how you pronounce it?
Tom:
We'll go with it.
Ali:
Sure. Really simple. Could you accidentally put that in your branding? Because it is just a logo that you designed. And oops, it's also a flag.
Tom:
So... not that. But it is something about designs and flags. It is a property of...
Katelyn:
Ok​ay.
Tom:
(laughs) the flag and the plane. I can't say more than that right now!
Ali:
Oh, so it's not that the countries are so close that you just look out the window, and there's a flag down on the ground
Tom:
No.
Ali:
from the other— okay. Because that was my other option.
Evan:
Is it— Is one country's flag a subset of another country's flag? Is a portion of one flag... the flag of another country?
Katelyn:
Wi​thin the design?
Evan:
Withi​n the design?
Tom:
Subset​ is not the right term, but you're starting to think in the right area there.
Evan:
Ooh.
Tom:
It's not like one of those things where Australia and New Zealand have the Union Jack in the corner. It's not like that.
Evan:
Yeah.
Katelyn:
Ok​ay, okay.
Evan:
Okay,​ okay. That's where I was going with the thought.
Ali:
I wonder if it's backwards. The logo was first, and then the flag happened.
Tom:
I'm gonna keep my mouth shut.
Ali:
Oh!
Evan:
(guffaws)
Ali:
Are we on the right track?
Katelyn:
I feel like we are.
Tom:
You are, but not in the way you think.
Ali:
Dang it.
Evan:
(laughs)
Ali:
That's​— He's saying that I'm on the right track, and it's not useful.
SFX:
(Ali and Tom laugh)
Tom:
You said the right words.
Evan:
I wonder if one of the flags is pretty simple. Like it's just one color, and there's a circle cut out of it, but the circle is a window that's cut out in the airplane. So the airplane makes another country's flag on accident or something. 'Cause I think—
Tom:
Now you're getting close.
Katelyn:
Oh​.
Ali:
Oh.
Evan:
Okay,​ okay. 'Cause something that Tom said made me think that it has to do with the airplane specifically. So there's a feature
Tom:
Yes.
Evan:
on the airplane that modifies one flag and makes it look like another flag.
Tom:
Yes, absolutely right.
Katelyn:
Mm​.
Ali:
The flag's printed on the headrest in a way that moves it around. Printed?
Evan:
No, it's on the outside of the plane.
Katelyn:
On​ the outside. It could be—
Tom:
It is.
Katelyn:
It​ could be on the tail, and the tail cuts something off. Because the tail isn't like a rectangle, and it cuts off an identifying feature that differentiates the two flags?
Tom:
No, sorry. But you're starting to think in the right direction. It's a quirk of how the flag is painted on the plane.
Ali:
Does it have to do with degrading over time, it becomes... perhaps sun... bleached? And it changes the color?
Tom:
No, the— Both the flags were on the plane.
Evan:
Both the flags were on the plane?
Tom:
Mhm.
Katelyn:
Hm​m. And they're painted on.
Tom:
Yep.
Evan:
And we got the most positive response when I said...
Katelyn:
Wh​en you mentioned a window.
Evan:
Somet​hing like a window or something like that. But it's not gonna be a window.
Tom:
it's a quirk of how flags are painted on planes. Basically anywhere.
Ali:
How are flags painted on planes?
Katelyn:
Wh​ich makes me think it either has to do with how... it would have to work around and accommodate around features like windows, or how it would have to work around or accommodate the curvature of the plane or the shapes of the tail or the wings or something like that.
Tom:
Not quite that. Have a think of...
Let's say it wasn't painted on there. Let's say that they actually just put flagpoles on the side of the plane. 'Cause that's what they're trying to emulate.
Katelyn:
It​— They put it on backwards, so that the plane flying forwards, it's like going the other direction.
Tom:
You said earlier, Ali, "I wonder if it's backwards."
And I went, "Ah—" And then you said something about a different topic.
I was like, oh, that's not what you meant by that. But you said the right word.
SFX:
(Katelyn and Evan laugh)
Tom:
You absolutely said the right word.
Yes, flags on planes are painted as if they were flying from a staff, and the plane is going forward. So if you ever look at the right-hand side, the starboard side of a US Army plane... then the flag will be apparently backwards. Because you are seeing it as if it's flown from a staff.
So put it together. What's special about the two flags?
Evan:
They are inverses of each other.
Tom:
Yes, they are both tricolour flags with three vertical bars. They are the reverse of each other. So Air Mali painted backwards to look like a flagpole is the flag of Guinea.
Evan, it is over to you for the next question.
Evan:
This question was sent in by Matthew B.
In 1915, ANZAC forces evacuated their position in Gallipoli, now part of Turkey. One soldier improvised a device consisting of two tin cans, one of which had a small hole in it. How did he save tens of thousands of lives?
In 1915, ANZAC forces evacuated their position in Gallipoli, now part of Turkey. One soldier improvised a device consisting of two tin cans, one of which had a small hole in it. How did he save tens of thousands of lives?
Tom:
Now, I feel like for the Americans on the call, I need to give a little bit of context here.
SFX:
(Tom and Evan laugh)
Evan:
I had to do a little bit of digging on this too, to refresh some memories.
Tom:
Yes. So, ANZAC is the Australia and New Zealand Army Corps. I don't know, the 'AC' might be something else, but it's Australian and New Zealand forces.
And Gallipoli was... a bloodbath. It's, in popular culture, just... a very dark time in ANZAC's history.
If you would like to feel very bad for a while, if you listen to "The Band Played Waltzing Matilda", it is... in Australia and New Zealand popular culture as... the bloodbath.
So this is... a dark question. But you said save tens of thousands of lives?
Evan:
Yes.
Tom:
Okay.
Evan:
One soldier improvised a device.
Katelyn:
Wi​th two tin cans, and one has a hole in it?
Evan:
Yeah,​ a little bit of an inventor-tinkerer.
Katelyn:
Ok​ay.
Ali:
I mean, I did this exact thing I'm sure when I was six. And it's telephone.
SFX:
(others laughing)
Ali:
Is it not speaking between the two of them? Obviously, that's the first thing that comes to mind, but it would be two holes.
Katelyn:
Th​at's what came to my mind too. Yeah.
Evan:
No, there was still a piece of string.
Katelyn:
Ok​ay. And I'm assuming that these were connected into one singular system. 'Cause it's referred to as a device.
Evan:
Mhm.
Katelyn:
A singular device. So it's not like you throw one over there, and you keep one here.
Evan:
Now, the two tin cans did interface with a third thing besides the string.
Tom:
The inventory we have is two tin cans with one small hole. And there's something else, and a piece of string involved.
Katelyn:
Ye​s.
Ali:
My initial idea would be that it would be super complex, and the tin cans are just one small piece of a really big, complex, confusing thing. But not if it's just three things or four things.
Katelyn:
An​d so whatever this device did... it allowed, what was it... Did you say 10,000 people to retreat?
Evan:
Yeah.
Katelyn:
So​ they were able to run away? And... So that makes me think, did this... I wonder if it imitated something that it wasn't. Like, if something about the hole made it like... you could spin it around, and it would make a sound, like it's something else.
Tom:
(chuckles)
Evan:
Katel​yn was kind of a little bit on the right track generally. I think you guys are getting there ...slowly.
Katelyn:
Ok​ay. So maybe it imitates something else or... seemed like it was something other than two tin cans. And a piece of string.
Tom:
It can't be something as simple as a trip wire or something like that, that detected something.
Katelyn:
Ye​ah, I'm also trying to think of... Why is there a hole in one of them?
Tom:
Mm.
Katelyn:
Yo​u know? Is it 'cause... Was that hole an attachment point and attached to something else? Or did something go in— need to go into the hole or come out of the hole? Could they put something in there and swing it around and...
SFX:
(group laughing)
Evan:
There​ was— I'll say this. There's no swinging.
Katelyn:
Th​ere's no swinging it? Okay.
Evan:
I don't want you to go too far down that rabbit hole.
Tom:
Okay, 'cause I was briefly thinking remote minefield detector, where you're just swinging a thing around.
But this is a Lateral question. It's not gonna be something grim. This is gonna be about saving lives.
Evan:
One can was placed above the other.
Katelyn:
Ok​ay.
Tom:
Okay.
Katelyn:
On​e above the other.
Tom:
Water filtration?
Ali:
When it's tipped, you hear it?
Katelyn:
It​ specifically allowed them to retreat?
Evan:
I didn't say that.
Katelyn:
Or​ did it just— Oh, that— well, that's what I'm clarifying. Or did it just say it saved them?
Evan:
It saved tens of thousands of lives.
Katelyn:
Ok​ay, just saved. Okay, okay.
Ali:
If one's unstacked tenuously, and it gets tripped and falls, that's a meerkat being like, "Hey, something's coming." And then 10,000 people.
Katelyn:
Ye​ah. Yeah.
Evan:
Tom was on somewhat of a tangential track with water. Water is involved somehow.
Tom:
Okay.
Katelyn:
Ok​ay.
Tom:
It's not filtration or sanitation, it's...
Katelyn:
So​ what else would you find? You'd have helmets. You'd have rope. You'd have...
Rope is just big string. (chuckles awkwardly)
Ali:
Was it in a river of some sort?
Evan:
Nope.​ I'll give you a small hint. The can with the hole is the one that had the water in it.
Katelyn:
Ok​ay. So the hole is either for putting water in or pouring water out.
Tom:
You could also use it for telling time? If you have a can that drains at a known speed.
Katelyn:
Oh​.
Tom:
You could use it for... I'm running outta things to use it for! (chuckles nervously)
Evan:
(laughs) Tom's on the right track a little bit. There was a little bit of a time element to it. The drip over time was a key part of the design.
Tom:
You're​ making tiny stalactites.
SFX:
(Evan and Katelyn cackle)
Katelyn:
An​d so the other can is fully closed?
Evan:
No, no.
Katelyn:
Oh​, it's an open can.
Evan:
So, the— There's an open can.
Katelyn:
So​ it has an open top.
Evan:
So there's a can that has a hole in it, and water's dripping out of that.
Ali:
That makes a sound. So it's something to do with the audio.
Evan:
You know, I'm gonna go back and add a clarification. 'Cause Katelyn did point something out.
So in 1915, ANZAC forces evacuated their position.
Tom:
Oh?
Evan:
So you were right. It was during an evacuation.
Katelyn:
Ok​ay, okay, yeah. So they did... leave where they were because of this can thing?
Evan:
Yes.
Katelyn:
Ok​ay.
Tom:
This is trench warfare. Are they trying to convince someone that there's still someone at home?
Evan:
(hides behind notes)
Tom:
Are the people still in there? But how would you do that with—
Katelyn:
Oh​, could—
Ali:
They'r​e making sounds.
Katelyn:
Co​uld the sound of the dripping water somehow... mimic the sound of...
Evan:
(clears throat)
Katelyn:
an​ army being there in some way?
Ali:
Yeah, like Home Alone, when he puts all those people up in the windows, and it's like, definitely a family here.
Evan:
It is very Home Alone-ish.
Katelyn:
Ok​ay.
Tom:
Okay.
Katelyn:
I'​m noticing you're having to cover your face, Evan, so you don't give anything away.
Evan:
I'm covering my face.
SFX:
(both laughing)
Tom:
Well, okay. So the only Home Alone things are either convincing people that you're still in or setting booby traps.
Katelyn:
Ye​s.
Ali:
(snickers)
Tom:
Is this a way to make the trench unsafe for someone following, so they've got time to retreat?
Evan:
So it's not a booby trap.
Tom:
Okay.
Evan:
It's more... convincing someone that's home. But dripping water isn't really that loud. What would be around that would really make a louder sound during trench warfare?
Katelyn:
A gun.
Ali:
This device pulls a gun trigger somehow via water and string?
Katelyn:
(gasps loudly)
Tom:
On a delay!
Evan:
Keep on going!
Katelyn:
Oh​, oh!
Tom:
It's on a delay!
Katelyn:
Ye​ah! So it fills the can without the hole, and the weight of that, once it's enough, it pulls the trigger.
Evan:
You guys got it!
Tom:
And that convinces the enemy that you're still there. There's still that noise, and it's not safe to come in. Because someone might be shooting at you. Which gives the troops time to retreat.
Evan:
Yes.
Katelyn:
Oh​h! Okay.
Evan:
When the troops decided to evacuate in December 1915, Lance Corporal WC Scurry invented what became known as the 'drip rifle'.
Water slowly drained from one can into another. That eventually became heavy enough to pull the trigger of a mounted rifle via a string.
The sporadic firing of rifles convinced the Turkish forces that the lines were still occupied long after the evacuation finished.
Ali:
Wow.
Evan:
Since​ the Turkish troops were close by, it's estimated that without the distraction, up to half of the 80,000 ANZAC troops would've died. In reality, only half a dozen casualties were taken 'cause of this invention.
Tom:
That's​ incredible.
Evan:
Maker​s!
SFX:
(group laughing)
Ali:
Yeah! Let's go.
Evan:
Yeah,​ yeah!
Tom:
Thank you to Lucas for sending in this next question.
When filming the Endor scenes for Star Wars: Return of the Jedi, one character often had to be accompanied by workers in hi-vis vests. Who was it, and why?
One more time.
When filming the Endor scenes for Star Wars: Return of the Jedi, one character often had to be accompanied by workers in hi-vis vests. Who was it, and why?
Evan:
Okay,​ so the Endor scene is snowy, white.
What blends in with white? More white.
Was it the... Was it the snow monster? And he had to be escorted by people in hi-vis vests, 'cause he wasn't visible?
Tom:
You have unfortunately confused Endor with Hoth.
Evan:
Oh my god!
Ali:
Oh, that's embarrassing.
Evan:
Oh my nerd credentials.
Katelyn:
So​ embarrassing. I was gonna say something, but you know.
SFX:
(Evan and Tom cackle)
Tom:
What I like is we all let Evan just carry on with that. It was like, well, someone's gonna have to tell him.
SFX:
(Evan and Katelyn laugh)
Katelyn:
I was like, he's gonna get it.
Evan:
I was like, "Aah, aah!"
Katelyn:
Yo​u were so confident. Okay, so Endor.
Evan:
That'​s the forest one, right?
Tom:
Yes, the Forest Moon of Endor.
Katelyn:
Ok​ay.
Evan:
I love that scene.
Tom:
(chuckles)
Ali:
The thing that they're around is dangerous. Other people need to see whatever they're surround— surrounding the character. What character would be dangerous to other people, versus... the other way around?
Evan:
Hmm. It could also be that they're blending in too. 'Cause in that battle, there were Ewoks? Were those the small—
Katelyn:
Ye​ah, Ewoks.
Tom:
Yes.
Evan:
Okay.​ Ewoks were present in that scene. And maybe they were too small, or they blended into the forest too much. So it could be that.
Katelyn:
It​ could go either way.
Evan:
It could go either way, either—
Katelyn:
It​ could be that it was dangerous for the character being escorted. Or the character being escorted... everyone else needed to be aware of where they were, 'cause there was a danger if they didn't know.
Ali:
Do we think it would help if one would have seen Star Wars when answering this question?
SFX:
(Tom and Evan laugh)
Katelyn:
Pr​obably.
Evan:
Proba​bly.
Katelyn:
I mean, I've seen it, but it's been so long.
Tom:
Even as someone who's never seen all the Star Wars films all the way through... I know this, and I think most people who've— If you know pop culture, you would be able to answer this one.
Katelyn:
Ok​ay.
Evan:
So I'll describe some scenes that I remember.
So there's the AT-AT walker. It gets smashed by two logs. But I think that might have been a miniature. 'Cause they were doing practical effects back then.
There were a lot of battle scenes. There was a lot of fighting.
Katelyn:
A lot of Ewok fighting.
Evan:
A lot of Ewok fighting.
Ali:
Were the Ewoks kids? They're small, right? Were they child actors?
Tom:
I don't actually know.
Ali:
Okay. But it seems like that doesn't matter.
Tom:
It doesn't, no.
Evan:
(guffaws)
Katelyn:
Ok​ay.
Tom:
Which means you can rule out Ewoks.
Evan:
Okay,​ rule out Ewoks.
Katelyn:
Ok​ay, okay.
Evan:
Okay,​ okay.
Katelyn:
I was really going hard into the Ewok direction. 'Cause I was thinking...
Tom:
(laughs)
Katelyn:
so​mething everyone knows if you haven't watched it.
Evan:
So now there's the Rebels or the Empire forces.
Tom:
Yes.
Evan:
Mainl​y Stormtroopers and stuff like that.
Katelyn:
I'​m also trying to think of stuff that's iconic to Star Wars that you would know even if you don't watch.
Evan:
Yeah.
Tom:
There'​s also something that is iconic... that is outside the world of Star Wars here. And have a think about where they might be filming this. They need a forest scene. Where are they gonna go for it?
Evan:
Redwo​ods maybe. The trees were big.
Katelyn:
Th​ey were big.
Tom:
Yeah.
Evan:
And that makes me think of Redwoods.
Katelyn:
We​re they... There's not... My brain was about to say, were they wearing hi-vis vests, so that hunters didn't shoot anyone on set? But I don't think there's hunters in the Redwoods?
Tom:
Keep thinking.
Evan:
No, yeah.
Katelyn:
Th​is could be a different forest where there are hunters.
Evan:
Oh my gosh, wait.
Katelyn:
Or​ maybe there are hunters there.
Evan:
Wait a second.
Tom:
(chuckles deeply)
Evan:
I'm gonna let you keep on going.
Katelyn:
Oh​, oh, wait! No, I know! I think I know. I think I know, okay. Well, I don't know where the forest is, but—
Tom:
It is the Redwood State Parks. It is northern California, yes.
Katelyn:
Ok​ay, I think the character at risk was Chewy.
Tom:
Yes, Chewbacca.
Katelyn:
Ye​ah, and I think it's because they were worried that hunters would shoot him, thinking he was like a large animal. Or like Bigfoot.
Evan:
Like a bear.
Tom:
Bigfoo​t!
Ali:
Bigfoo​t!
Tom:
Bigfoo​t's the key word there, yes.
Evan:
Oh, that's great. I love this question.
Tom:
Yes.
Katelyn:
Th​at's so good.
Tom:
The crew were worried that Chewbacca, or actor Peter Mayhew, would be mistaken for Bigfoot in the dense forests of northern California. Because Bigfoot hunters had searched in there.
And there were some shots where he's off in the distance, so... they put a couple of folks with hi-vis vests near him at all times, just in case there were some hunter nearby who was like, "I'm gonna bag Bigfoot."
Ali:
I would feel like that's not enough. If I'm playing... If I'm playing Chewbacca, I feel like we need a better contingency plan.
SFX:
(Evan and Katelyn laugh)
Katelyn:
Th​at's great.
Tom:
Ali, whenever you're ready.
Ali:
This question has been sent in by Raquel.
Sarah is spending a relaxing evening at home. After a while, she sighs and decides she needs to tink. After tinking for a while, she sighs again and decides she needs to frog. What is causing her to tink and frog?
Evan:
Yoga positions. (guffaws)
Katelyn:
(wheezes)
Ali:
And again.
Sarah is spending a relaxing evening at home. After a while, she sighs and decides she needs to tink. After tinking for a while, she sighs again and decides she needs to frog. What is causing her to tink and frog?
SFX:
(guessers laughing)
Evan:
Very interesting question. Very interesting.
Katelyn:
So​ we can use some context clues. We know tinking is something that takes a while to do. 'Cause it says she tinks for a while.
Tom:
Yes.
Katelyn:
So​ it's not like...
Evan:
She tinks for a while.
Katelyn:
a single thing you do. She also, before tinking and frogging, she sighs? Which to me, a sigh indicates... It's kind of like
Evan:
Reluc​tance?
Katelyn:
a little bit of a reluctance to... "(loud sigh) Yeah, I should do this."
Tom:
Guess I gotta tink now.
Katelyn:
Ye​ah, gotta tink.
Evan:
Now, I wonder if those are... T stands for something. I stands for something. What are those called?
Katelyn:
Li​ke an acronym?
Evan:
Acron​ym.
Katelyn:
It​ could be an acronym or some kind of... slang that we're not understanding. It's very skibidi.
SFX:
(group laughs awkwardly)
Katelyn:
It​'s very sigma.
Evan:
Oh no!
Katelyn:
Sh​e's rizzling right now.
Tom:
Oh no.
SFX:
(Evan and Katelyn laugh)
Evan:
Tink and frog.
Katelyn:
Ti​nk and frog.
Evan:
I'm trying to think of— Is there any link between those two?
Katelyn:
Ye​ah.
Evan:
T-I-N​-C, F-R-O-G.
Katelyn:
Or​ T-I-N-K.
Evan:
Oh yeah.
Katelyn:
Co​uld be K.
Evan:
Yeah.​ They're both four letter...
Katelyn:
Fo​ur letter words.
Evan:
Words​, maybe acronyms.
Tom:
It was a relaxing evening at home.
Katelyn:
Ye​ah, she's home.
Ali:
I will confirm it is T-I-N-K.
Evan:
T-I-N​-K.
Katelyn:
Th​at makes me think... that maybe it is either an acronym or it's short for something, where like it being a K instead of a C is relevant.
Tom:
Hmm.
Evan:
For some reason, when I was hearing the question being asked, I wanted to add... letters to it to complete it, like 'think' or... I don't dunno what 'frog' would turn into, but... maybe there's like a... What's the... Pig Latin? You know, like where it's—
Katelyn:
Ix​-nay.
Evan:
Yeah,​ you know, like where... one word kind of means another word through some formula.
Katelyn:
Hm​m. Like it's code.
Evan:
Like it's code.
Ali:
You're​ on the right track. The word 'tink' is... has a clue in it.
Evan:
Tink.​ Okay.
Tom:
Okay. Tink— So Tink is... short for Tinker Bell in Peter Pan. I don't know which adaptation of Peter Pan, but...
So now I'm making a load of Disney connections in my head. You've got Tinker Bell, and you've got The Princess and the Frog, and you've got a load of old fairy tales and things like that. But I dunno what that could be a metaphor for.
...Metaphor for.
Evan:
So she pretends to be Tinker Bell for a while, and then she pretends to be Kermit the Frog for a while.
SFX:
(Evan and Katelyn laugh)
Ali:
Okay, no. I would say not that track.
Tom:
Ack.
SFX:
(Evan and Katelyn cackle)
Katelyn:
We​ went too far. Okay.
Ali:
And you're right about the sighing. She's trying to undo some mistakes. So you're thinking correctly here.
Katelyn:
Mm​. She's trying to undo a mistake.
Evan:
So she sighs. She's like, "I'mma tink for a while." T-I-N-K.
Tom:
This is tickling something in the back of my head.
Like crochet. I don't know why my brain has just gone, crochet. That this is...
Katelyn:
Li​ke the noise of needles.
Tom:
It was when you said "undo some mistakes", my brain went to crafting. And then I feel like I've heard 'frog'.
(laughs and stammers) There's a linguistic concept called priming, right? Where you hear one word, and then the bits of your brain associated with other similar concepts just gently light up, so you've got more— And I heard "undo mistakes" and "frog", and my— suddenly, the 'crochet' word in my head lit up.
Ali:
You are so close.
Tom:
Argh! Okay.
Evan:
Maybe​—
Katelyn:
If​ that's the case, my mom is gonna be yelling at the screen right now.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Evan:
I wonder if... You know how when you're tying your shoes, you go, over the this, and you go under the that, and you remember what you're supposed to do in what order by saying... You know, you remember an acronym.
So maybe 'tink' is... together... in... not...
Katelyn:
No​t, starts with an N.
Evan:
K, something, you know what I mean?
Ali:
What action are you doing?
Tom:
Oh my— Oh! Ohhh! You're knitting. You are knitting. You are specifically knitting.
Ali:
That's​ it!
Tom:
Have a look at the words.
Evan:
Tink.​..
Katelyn:
Oh​, it's backwards.
Tom:
It's backwards.
Ali:
There you go.
Tom:
So if you're undoing— If you're undoing knitting... you're tinking.
Katelyn:
Oh​.
Ali:
Yeah.
Katelyn:
Oh​hh!
Evan:
Ohhh!
Katelyn:
Oh​ my god. (guffaws downbeat)
Evan:
Ting is undoing knitting. So what would 'frog' be?
Ali:
Do you wanna try and figure that out too?
Evan:
So if—
Katelyn:
So​ if tinking is undoing knitting...
Evan:
So tinking is knitting backwards.
Ali:
This one's a little obscure. It's not a wordplay thing here. Like... yeah, that.
Katelyn:
So​ it's not gorfing backwards.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Ali:
Ha! Gorf. So, wow, you guys are incredible. I didn't even have to give you any notes here. You got everything that I was supposed to give you as clues.
Tom:
So what's frogging?
Katelyn:
So​ we need to figure out frog.
Ali:
So, Sarah's knitting, and she made some mistakes. You got it. That's why she's sighing. Tink is to go backwards to the place where you made the mistake. So, 'knit' backwards. And frog is to unravel several rows of stitches.
If you realize that the mistake happened much earlier, the name is a pun on "Rip it, rip it, rip it." Unravel it. Rip it back. Mimicking...
Katelyn:
Oh​ my gosh.
Ali:
ribbit​ noise that a frog makes.
Evan:
Rip it, rip it, rip it. Wow.
Katelyn:
Pe​ople who knit are very clever with their terms, and I like it. I like the playfulness.
Evan:
Playf​ul, yeah. Very, very good.
Katelyn:
Th​at's awesome.
Tom:
Thank you to Bob Weisz for this question.
In 2019, a professor in Japan set a class assignment to write an essay about their recent trip to a museum. One student turned in a blank sheet of paper, and she was given top marks. Why?
I'll say that again.
In 2019, a professor in Japan set a class assignment to write an essay about their recent trip to a museum. One student turned in a blank sheet of paper, and she was given top marks. Why?
Ali:
It's a minimalist art museum. And we're just not putting anything on the page, because... that suits that style.
Katelyn:
Or​, I wonder if... there's any reason why the... the... it might have been invisible ink or something.
Tom:
(widens eyes)
Evan:
Ooh! It was a spy museum.
SFX:
(Ali and Katelyn chuckle)
Katelyn:
Sp​y museum. Because we dunno what— It might not be an art museum.
Ali:
Yeah, I know. I assume art.
Evan:
I wonder if it has to do with 2019. This was before the painting—
Tom:
I'm gonna cut you off.
Katelyn, you're right. It absolutely is invisible ink.
That is half the answer.
Katelyn:
Oh​.
Tom:
But I'll let you work out the rest.
Katelyn:
Ok​ay, okay, okay.
Evan:
Oh, whoa.
Katelyn:
So​ what kind of—
Evan:
Good job.
Katelyn:
Th​anks.
Ali:
Yeah.
Katelyn:
So​ that makes me wonder, what kind of museum was it? Like a science... museum somehow, where it's like the ink is revealed with UV light? Like something like that?
Or... a history museum? And, you know, some exhibit in the museum had to do with something where secret messages were needed and...
Ali:
Yeah.
Katelyn:
I don't know.
Ali:
Some sort of old-timey national security museum.
Katelyn:
Ye​ah.
Tom:
Again.​.. Katelyn's the closest there.
Katelyn:
I dunno what's happening.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Ali:
Everyo​ne, chill. She's already done too much. Let her take a break. We'll do it.
SFX:
(Evan and Katelyn laugh)
Evan:
Katel​yn's secret life as a spy confirmed.
SFX:
(Tom and Katelyn laugh)
Tom:
Spy is not the right term.
Evan:
Right​.
Katelyn:
Hm​m.
Ali:
Nation​al Security. FBI. CIA.
Tom:
Those are all spies.
Ali:
Okay.
Katelyn:
I feel like it could go back to... ancient Egyptians and stuff like that. I feel like they would do stuff like invisible ink. They were— They had little sneaky secret things that they did.
Evan:
My guess is that Egyptians didn't have invisible ink.
Katelyn:
I don't know. I feel like they could have used like...
Tom:
(cracks up) They did.
Katelyn:
I don't know.
Tom:
But it was just putting something over your carved hieroglyphics. It's like you carve the hieroglyphics, and then you just plaster over them. ...Plaster over them!
Evan:
I was thinking I don't think they had ink at all.
Katelyn:
We​ll, there was— Wasn't there papyrus?
Tom:
Yeah, there absolutely was. I don't know why I was a dick about that. You're absolutely right. There was.
SFX:
(guests laugh heartily)
Tom:
(grunts)
Katelyn:
Ye​ah, there is just a slab of rock in front of the other rock.
Tom:
I think I was thinking clay tablets. That's just the wrong civilisation.
SFX:
(Evan and Katelyn laugh)
Tom:
The civilisation in question is important though.
Katelyn:
Be​cause the word 'civilization' was used, it makes me think it is an older civilization.
Tom:
This was a professor in Japan.
Katelyn:
Oh​, Japan.
Evan:
Japan​.
Katelyn:
Sa​murai.
Ali:
The calligraphy of some sort is big in Japan.
Katelyn:
Oh​, calligraphy.
Evan:
So it must've been some sort of secret letters between lovers maybe. She said it doesn't have to do with spies. Maybe it's like discreet messages between lovers.
Tom:
(hesitantly) Spies is closer, sadly.
SFX:
(Evan and Katelyn laugh)
Tom:
It's not the right word.
Ali:
Spies is closer?
Tom:
I think—
Ali:
Are they romantic spies?
SFX:
(Evan and Katelyn laugh)
Tom:
I've been hesitating with 'spy', because you've been thinking like CIA and code books and that sort of thing. We're in Japan, and we're talking about Japanese history.
Evan:
Ninja​s.
Tom:
There we go! That's the word I was looking for.
Evan:
(laughs) Yeah.
Katelyn:
Ok​ay.
Evan:
Coole​r spies.
Tom:
'Cause​ you're right. That is basically a spy... but we were looking for ninjas.
This was a museum concerned with Japan's feudal era, 13th to 17th centuries. The professor said he would give high marks for creativity. This was professor Yuji Yamada.
And first-year student Eimi Haga decided to write her essay in invisible ink, employing the ninja technique called aburidashi. She even made the ink herself out of soybeans.
Evan:
Wow.
SFX:
(guests applauding)
Ali:
A-plus​.
Katelyn:
Sh​e deserved— yeah. She deserved that— those high marks.
Tom:
Kately​n, it is your question.
Katelyn:
At​ the National Zoo in Washington, DC, there's a machine that gives you a guaranteed 2% profit on your money. Why?
Again.
At the National Zoo in Washington, DC, there's a machine that gives you a guaranteed 2% profit on your money. Why?
Evan:
My guess is it's some sort of donation matching.
'Cause if it was just straight profit for you, then everyone would just be getting infinite money. So there has to be some sort of a glitch.
And the only thing I can think of is some sort of donation matching. Some foundation will say, "Hey, if you give $10, we'll... make it $12 or something."
Tom:
That's​ not profit for you though. I'm gonna sit out of this one, 'cause I think I saw one of these very recently, and it's in my head. If I'm wrong, feel free to mock me. But I'm gonna let you all take this one.
Ali:
A money machine? I need to go there right now.
SFX:
(Evan and Katelyn laugh)
Ali:
Make 2% on whatever I put in.
Katelyn:
Yo​u would only see this type of machine... somewhere where there might be... tourists.
Evan:
Is it one of those things where you stick in a quarter, and you roll it, and it flattens it out and changes it into another shape?
Tom:
I was thinking penny crusher.
Ali:
But 2% increase. You always put in your own penny.
Evan:
Oh, that just destroys— It's no longer legal currency, right?
Tom:
The reason I was thinking penny crusher is that I saw one of these recently. And actually, now I think about it, the 2% profit doesn't make sense, but... I saw one of these where they supply the pennies. Because I think there might be something illegal about... mutilating currency. So they have blanks in there. But that doesn't make sense. That's not 2% profit. I was really sure about this. And now it's all—
Ali:
You're​ still paying the 50 cents to crush it or whatever.
Tom:
Right,​ yeah.
Katelyn:
So​ you guys are very close.
Evan:
So something around the crushers. Something for tourists.
Tom:
Actual​ly... For people who haven't seen these, does someone wanna explain the penny crusher?
Evan:
So basically what it is, is... you stick in some sort of malleable metal currency. Pennies are good, 'cause they're fairly malleable. And you— the person who's paying, turns gears, which pulls the... the coin in.
And there's a die, a metal die on top and bottom, and it re-imprints a new... type of imprint onto the coin.
Ali:
And generally it's fat— flat and oblong versus a coin shape when you're done.
Tom:
Yeah.
Evan:
Yes.
Tom:
They'l​l crush it down and add a little design of wherever you happen to be.
Evan:
Yeah.
Tom:
But yeah. The one I saw just had a credit card reader on it, and they supplied their own penny blanks, which kinda defeats the purpose. It was for the cashless world. You scan your credit card, you turn the gear, souvenir comes out.
Ali:
But for some reason, you're not paying. They're just giving you the penny.
Tom:
Right.
Ali:
Or is there some sort of— Is payment in the work that you're doing? Are you adding some sort of value... and then they give you a penny, so you're actually getting paid for—
Tom:
There was a wonderful bit of artwork that I've heard of, which is the Minimum Wage Machine. It's just a crank on the side of the box with a load of pennies inside. And as long as you turn the crank, it will pay you the current minimum wage in pennies.
Evan:
Wow.
Tom:
Which as an artistic statement, is wonderful and a bit bleak.
Katelyn:
Ye​ah.
Evan:
(cackles)
Tom:
'Cause​ people are not willing to turn that crank.
Ali:
Yeah, trade your life for pennies, wow.
Tom:
Mhm.
Katelyn:
So​, so you guys are... you're...
Evan:
Right​, so close.
Katelyn:
Yo​u're so close. So one thing I will say is there are two machines next to each other.
Ali:
So one's just broken?
Evan:
I have a guess.
Katelyn:
No​.
Evan:
You can swipe a card and pay one dollar for... $1.20 or whatever for a pre-crushed penny. Or you can pay a dollar for a penny that you crush yourself.
Katelyn:
So​ how are you making money?
Evan:
So you're making money by crushing it yourself.
Katelyn:
So​ this is something where anyone... even if you're not crushing pennies... could make this 2% profit.
Tom:
So could it be like a... No, never mind. That's a stupid idea.
Ali:
I would love to hear it.
Tom:
Well.
Evan:
I wanna hear it too.
Tom:
I'm thinking a change machine. You swipe your card, it gives you a dollar to use, or however much— Yeah, it gives you a dollar to use the machine next door and... two pennies? But...
Ali:
(gasps) That's it.
Katelyn:
Th​at's basically it.
Ali:
You put a dollar in, and the two pennies come out with the dollar.
Evan:
You almost didn't say it.
Katelyn:
Yo​u almost didn't say it! So...
The machine in question that guarantees a 2% profit is a machine that supplies pennies for a souvenir penny press machine right next to it.
So basically, it's a change machine. You insert a dollar. It gives you four quarters, which you can use to pay for the penny press and two pennies to use on the penny press.
So technically anyone can use it and make a profit. You could just be putting dollars in there all day and make your 2% profit.
Evan:
(blurts laugh)
Katelyn:
Bu​t it's meant for the penny press.
Evan:
Wow!
Katelyn:
So​ the quarter allows you to pay for the operation of the penny press. The pennies are the coins you crush with it. Given that the zoo makes a substantial profit from the machine, they don't mind losing 2% from the change machine.
Ali:
Yeah.
Evan:
Wow.
Ali:
Nobody​'s going there paying a dollar for a couple of pennies.
Tom:
And you've gotta pay for admission to the zoo.
Katelyn:
Ye​ah.
Evan:
And you need a large wheelbarrow.
Katelyn:
Fo​r all those pennies.
Evan:
For all those pennies. If you're gonna try to actually turn a profit from that? Can you imagine walking into the zoo with a giant wheelbarrow?
Katelyn:
Mi​ght be a little suspicious.
Evan:
Giant​ cash of— a stack of ones.
SFX:
(both laughing)
Ali:
And a convincing disguise. "Ugh, Evan and Katelyn are here again."
SFX:
(others laughing)
Katelyn:
Ye​ah.
Tom:
So, one last order of business.
At the top of the show, I asked a question that was sent in by Crashington.
What rule gave rise to the self-proclaimed title of 'salad engineer'?
Does anyone want to take a guess at that?
Katelyn:
It​ makes me something— think it's something like in a kitchen, like some kind of guideline for kitchen sanitary standards or something. Where like... increased guidelines of strictness were involved.
And so the person felt justified in calling themselves an engineer, because they had to adhere to more rules. I don't know.
Ali:
I went the other way around. It's an engineer that... (wheezes) It's about an engineer, not someone making salads.
SFX:
(Evan and Katelyn laugh)
Katelyn:
Ok​ay, you guys are probably right.
Evan:
I was going the other way too. Like, an engineer who's a salad engineer is a certain variety of engineer based on some OSHA rule or something like that.
Katelyn:
Or​ maybe it's an engineer that does a little bit of everything tossed together in a salad.
Evan:
Hmm.
Ali:
Yeah, toss it all together. Salad is a mix. The rule is you should use many disciplines when engineering.
Tom:
This did involve actual salad.
SFX:
(Katelyn and Evan gasp)
Evan:
Katel​yn's more right!
Tom:
(laughs)
Ali:
Wow, look at that.
Evan:
What rule? So some rule implemented in a kitchen?
Katelyn:
Oh​!
Ali:
Engine​ers with great body fat.
Katelyn:
We​ll, so in kitchens, often you do assembly line.
Ali:
Yes.
Katelyn:
Fo​r efficiency. So maybe there was a new rule about salads needing to be made in more of an assembly line process.
Evan:
Wait,​ I have a guess. The rule is... This is at like Subway or something like that. And Subway allowed employees to set their own job titles, and someone named themselves 'salad engineer'.
Tom:
In the same way they have sandwich artists.
Ali:
Yeah, there you go.
Tom:
Yeah.
Ali:
Is it that the rule is that you have to work through lunch?
Tom:
Ohh!
Ali:
And so you're eating your salad while you continue to engineer?
Tom:
So... I'm hesitant to give hints. Because you're right about... some of the details here.
Katelyn:
Ok​ay.
Evan:
Who's​ right?
Tom:
Honest​ly, most of you.
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Tom:
A lot of the details in there. We're talking about rules. We're talking about assembly lines and things like that. It's just—
Ali:
Yeah, okay. So you can eat with one hand while you're continuing to do something with the other hand, 'cause it's a salad.
The same thing that Earl of Sandwich did while he played poker.
Tom:
But employee is the wrong word.
Katelyn:
Oh​, so is it the customer?
Tom:
(nods faintly)
Evan:
It's like, be your own salad engineer at... Store.
Katelyn:
Ye​ah, at the Salad Mart.
And so... If it is like a salad bar, then you do kind of start on one side and end up at the other. And there are— There is a proper order, in a way, where, you know, you do the dressing last. You don't do the dressing first, like a crazy person, you know?
Ali:
(wheezes)
Tom:
And there's another rule there. Some of these.
SFX:
(Evan and Katelyn laugh)
Evan:
What rule? What rule?
Ali:
Where are there salad bars anymore? Pizza Hut is what comes to mind for me.
Tom:
Yeah, you're right, Ali. This was at Pizza Hut.
Katelyn:
Oh​.
Evan:
What?
Katelyn:
Ok​ay.
Evan:
Pizza​ Hut.
Ali:
Thatâ€â€‹” Back in the day when you could just sneeze on everyone's food. We don't do that anymore.
Tom:
(cackles)
Katelyn:
(laughs sardonically)
Evan:
Yeah,​ what rule?
Katelyn:
It​ makes me think maybe there's some sort of rule placed on the salad bar. Like, oh, there's limits to this, or there's limits to that, or you can't do this or that. And so they were finding clever ways around it. And because they had to carefully calculate how to get around these rules, then they gave themselves the title.
Tom:
All I need you to do is identify the rule.
Evan:
Weigh​t limit.
Tom:
Mm... no.
Ali:
Volume​ limit?
Tom:
The engineering really was on the volume.
Katelyn:
Ok​ay, well I wonder if they put the heaviest stuff on top to crush it down, so that it would fit in the bowl. Like you had to keep it in the size of a smaller bowl.
Ali:
Oh. Has to fit in one plate.
Tom:
Yes, you could only visit the salad bar once. You could get one plate of salad. So, talk me through what they were doing.
Katelyn:
Ok​ay, so they're figuring out how to structurally maximize how much they could fit on one plate, like build walls with chicken strips and things like that to maximize how much could fit.
Tom:
That's​ a hell of a salad.
Katelyn:
Ye​ah! (laughs)
Evan:
(laughs)
Katelyn:
Th​at's awesome.
Tom:
Yes. You are absolutely right.
At some branches of Pizza Hut, they had a one salad plate per person rule, and some customers developed elaborate strategies and operations to stack the food as high as possible on their one plate, and they called themselves 'salad engineers'.
Katelyn:
Th​at's awesome.
Evan:
That'​s awesome.
Tom:
In China, a real life engineer developed a technique that started with a rim of carrot batons to widen the base, stacked circles of cucumber to form a cylindrical tower that could be up to three feet high, using dressing as glue.
Ali:
Glue?!
Katelyn:
If​ someone could pull that off, they deserve that salad.
Tom:
And with that, thank you very much to all three of our players.
What's going on in your lives? Where can people find you? We will start with...
Evan, Katelyn, you're in the same room. Which one of you wants to take it?
Evan:
Go watch my ergonomic laptop video. I'm really proud of it. I had fun working on it. I worked on it off and on for a year or three.
Katelyn:
Mh​m.
Evan:
(blurts laugh) It's one of those background personal projects that I'm just like...
Katelyn:
Th​at we turned into a video eventually.
Evan:
It turned into a video eventually, yeah.
Katelyn:
Ye​ah, so just @EvanAndKatelyn on YouTube.
Tom:
And Ali.
Ali:
Yeah, go see me on all of the things. I'm @AliSpagnola everywhere.
And yeah, my YouTube channel will have me probably making the hardest Crocs on the planet if I can actually pull it off.
Tom:
And if you wanna know more about this show, you can do that at lateralcast.com, where you can also send in your own ideas for questions. We are at @lateralcast basically everywhere, and there are video highlights on YouTube and full video episodes on Spotify.
Thank you very much to Ali Spagnola.
Ali:
Thank you. I'm so glad to be here.
Tom:
To Evan and Katelyn.
Evan:
Thank​s for having us.
Katelyn:
Th​ank you.
Tom:
I've been Tom Scott, and that's been Lateral.
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