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Episode 168: Removing the roof
26th December, 2025 • Michelle Wong and Dani Siller & Bill Sunderland from 'Escape this Podcast' face questions about Soviet spats, spot situations and spoiled science.
Transcription by Caption+
Tom:
In what non-medical location might you see vomits, nosebleeds, and spots?
The answer to that at the end of the show. My name's Tom Scott, and this is Lateral. On today's show, we have three players from the continent of Australia; a land of big skies, big barbecues, and even bigger opinions. But that's enough bigging up of the guests. Let's get on and meet them. We start returning from Lab Muffin Beauty Science, Michelle Wong. Welcome back to the show.
Michelle:
Thank you for having me.
Tom:
Last time you got some really good solves in on your first show. How are you feeling?
Michelle:
Well, now I'm intimidated, but I was confident three seconds ago. Thanks, Scott.
Tom:
Oh, oh, that's—
Michelle:
Did I call you Scott? I called you Scott 'cause I'm looking at your name. Well, you deserve that. You deserve that. (laughs)
Tom:
Thank you very much for coming back on the show. What's going on with the channel? What are you working on at the minute?
Michelle:
The usual terrible long video editing life. (laughs)
Tom:
Oh, yeah, the—
Michelle:
Just—oh yeah just—
Tom:
The curse of the video essayist.
Michelle:
Yeah, I am turning into a video essayist now, yeah. It's become video essays about beauty, which apparently there is an audience for.
Tom:
Yes. There's an audience for a lot of things that are far more niche than making sure you look good.
Dani:
And on that note—
SFX:
(group laughing)
Tom:
Also from Australia and here since the first episode, Dani Siller from Escape This Podcast. Welcome back.
Dani:
As niche as they come, I feel. Thank you so much.
Tom:
What is the nichest escape room you've had on the podcast?
Dani:
I'm probably gonna say, I mentioned it last time we were on, that I recently for National Science Week wrote a room that was all centered around the idea of goat genetics where you have to interpret some goat family trees and find out some genetic fraud that has gone on in the species.
Tom:
I realised a moment later that you said 'centered', as in, with an R in there.
Dani:
Revolving around.
Tom:
Yes. Not scented as in—no.
Dani:
Scented. A goat-scented room.
Tom:
Goat genetic-scented room. That's even worse!
Dani:
(cackles)
Tom:
Also joining us, the other half of Escape This Podcast, Bill Sunderland. Welcome back to the show.
Bill:
I'm excited to be back. When you started talking about all the big things in Australia, I thought you were gonna talk about the fact that we have a whole cultural landscape of big things in Australia as you drive around.
Tom:
Oh, you do! Yes!
Bill:
The Big Merino and the Big Prawn and the Big Banana and the Big Pineapple. It's just what we do.
Tom:
I've seen the Big Pineapple.
Bill:
It's a big pineapple.
Tom:
I've seen the Big Penguin.
Dani:
Have you seen the Big Poo?
Tom:
No.
Bill:
Don't worry.
Dani:
Do you want to?
Tom:
Not really.
Michelle:
Is it in your house?
Bill:
Big Prawn, though. The Big Prawn is pretty good.
Tom:
At some point... could you do a big escape room? Like an escape room themed around the big thing?
Bill:
We probably could.
Dani:
Challenge easily— definitely accepted. I'm writing it down now.
Bill:
The benefit of the audio escape room medium is we can say, "Alright, you're in a really big space. It's like 100 kilometres wide," and it's just as true as it would be if we said they were in a small room.
Tom:
Well, best of luck to all three players today.
And before we get into an argument about whether Penguin biscuits or Tim Tams are better, we'll start the cultural exchange that is question one.
Dani:
(snickers)
Tom:
Thank you to Ghostbear for this question.
In the Netherlands, Beatrix is choosing between a goat saying 'Ciao' and a sheep saying, '¡Hola!'. Below each one are up to five black circles. What do the circles mean?
I'll say that again.
In the Netherlands, Beatrix is choosing between a goat saying, 'Ciao' and a sheep saying, '¡Hola!'. Below each one are up to five black circles. What do the circles mean?
Bill:
Alright.
Dani:
Michelle, how are your farm animals?
Michelle:
Pretty good. I actually went to an agricultural high school. So that works.
Tom:
(laughs)
Dani:
Oh, yeah. Off the recording I asked what high school you went to. I didn't get an answer, but I know the answer now.
Bill:
There's only one.
Michelle:
There's actually four. No—
SFX:
(guests blurt laugh)
Michelle:
Yeah, so, well, I know we had sheep, but we didn't have goats 'cause they smelled too much, but I mean you just did a goat genetics escape room so—
Dani:
I know everything about the goat smells.
Tom:
Sorry, it's taken me this long as the Brit to go, "I'm sorry, agricultural high school?"
Dani:
Oh, yeah. That's a thing.
Michelle:
Yeah, a very strange Australian thing where one of the biggest nerdy high schools, like, traditionally, it was agricultural. And so all these nerds, including me...
Tom:
(laughs)
Michelle:
Little 12-year-old nerds just go to this high school and they've just done math and then they see a sheep and the teachers take great joy in making us touch the sheep. Someone has to put a hand up a cow's butt. (cracks up) It's–
Dani:
(gasps) Really? That's so cool!
Michelle:
Well, it's also year seven, so everyone's trying to— everyone's like, nervous at this new school. So the nerdiest kids all really want to be the person to put the hand in there.
Dani:
Amazing!
Michelle:
And you touch the cow and make sure its head is in the right spot and stuff. It's really bizarre. But we did learn a lot about sheep.
Dani:
That's so cool!
Michelle:
You have to stand in a row and you shake your hands and then they— that's herding sheep. They run away from you. So when you don't have a sheep dog, you just do this in a row and you all have to be very short, I guess. I'm not sure that makes a difference.
Tom:
(laughs)
Dani:
(giggles) Well, I don't know a huge amount about dealing with sheep and goats. Black circles, on the other hand, surely, we can deal with that.
Bill:
Oh, you're an expert.
Dani:
Oh, absolutely. Initially I heard the name Beatrix and I was going, "Oh, I don't care if that's a common name. I'm assuming that this is about Beatrix Potter," because we're talking about animals so I'm thinkin' paper. So I'm thinkin' black circles on paper, or there's Morse code going on here. That can probably go up to five dots.
Beyond that... appropriately enough, I have, "Dot, dot, dot," in my head. I don't know what's happening next.
Bill:
Again, there's clearly language stuff going on, right? We have both the fact that this is happening in the Netherlands where they'll be speaking Dutch or Flemish.
Dani:
Dutch? No, that's Belgium.
Bill:
Get—well, they're close.
Tom:
(laughs)
Bill:
They're speaking Dutch.
Dani:
They love to hear that. Let's offend as many European countries as possible.
Bill:
When— I don't think— but also, I don't think they are explicitly... don't like hearing it. I don't know if that's a long-standing feud.
"Flemish!" I think it's just me being dumb.
So they're speaking Dutch. Then we have two animals. So we could have the words for those animals or the sound they make in— 'Cause every language has its own sounds that animals make. Cats say, "Myep!" In some language somewhere. And then the animals themselves are speaking... Spanish or Italian or both?
Tom:
Italian and Spanish. Ciao and hola.
Bill:
Ciao and hola. So maybe it's about not the word but, like, the Dutch word for goat is the same as their word for Italy?
Michelle:
(snickers)
Dani:
Ah!
Bill:
Goatland?
Tom:
(laughs)
Michelle:
You don't really think of goats when you think of Italy, do you?
Bill:
Not really.
Dani:
I don't.
Michelle:
Maybe you do 'cause, like, sheep, Spain, wasn't there the golden fleece or something? I might be mixing five countries.
Bill:
Golden Fleece was Greece. We're jumpin' all over Europe together.
Michelle:
Yeah.
Bill:
So it— Surely there's a language element to it, right? It'd be strange for a Dutch goat to say, "Ciao".
Tom:
Yeah, "Hello" and "Bonjour" are also available.
Bill:
Initially I was hoping that there'd be as many dots as letters and there's some, like, highlight which ones are— but it's five dots, four letters for hola and—
Dani:
It said up to five dots, didn't it?
Bill:
Oh, that's interesting.
Michelle:
It's almost like a score.
Tom:
It is. Eh, score's not the right word. But, yes. That— that's more towards it.
Bill:
Rate this goat one out of five?
Dani:
Rate my pet.
Tom:
Yes, a rating, I think would be a thing here. Maybe not like— maybe not like how good it is, but certainly how something it is.
Bill:
How correct it is. How many—
Michelle:
How loud it is.
Tom:
The cow is also common here. Very common. Probably the most common.
Dani:
The most common. Is it cheese-related?
Tom:
Yes, it is, Dani!
Dani:
Interesting! I just—
Tom:
Where did that come from?
Dani:
I really like cheese, and you have listed most of the animals whose cheese I have eaten.
Tom:
Yes!
Bill:
So goat cheese comes from Italy.
Tom:
Yes.
Bill:
And sheep cheese comes from Spain.
Tom:
This particular one does. Where might we be seeing these animals and circles?
Bill:
Are they, like, in a supermarket, labelling the cheeses?
Tom:
Yes.
Bill:
Or a deli?
Tom:
Yes! These are on the labels for the cheeses.
Bill:
And is a rating of firmness of cheese?
Michelle:
Or how aged they are?
Bill:
Or age of cheese?
Tom:
That's it! That's the last thing.
Dani:
Really?
Tom:
It's the strength of the cheese. This is the Dutch supermarket Picnic who put labels on their cheese. The animal indicates the type of cheese. The language indicates the country of origin. And the dots are the strength or the age of the cheese. You are absolutely right. That came from nowhere! Well done!
Dani:
I love that you get a little bit of language education as you scarf it down.
SFX:
(Tom and Bill laugh)
Tom:
Yeah, the label is just an outline of a cow with a speech bubble that says, "Bonjour!" and one dot underneath because it's mild. We'll go to our players for a question and we'll start today with Michelle. Whenever you're ready.
Michelle:
This question has been sent in by CherimoyaZest. A scarf's knitting pattern uses 20% red, 60% white, and 20% black. A few extra colours might be used before the red. However, the design can't be appreciated while the scarf is worn. Why? I'll say that again. A scarf's knitting pattern uses 20% red, 60% white, and 20% black. "A few extra colours might be used before the red. "However, the design can't be appreciated while the scarf is worn. Why?
Bill:
Well, 'cause if it's too worn, the colours will have faded away!
Tom:
Eyyy!
Michelle:
That's it. That's— we're done.
Bill:
Next question!
Tom:
(laughs)
Dani:
Just trying to draw it, which is not easy when you only have a lead pencil.
Tom:
Yeah, I've got one colour of pen here.
Dani:
Ehp!
Tom:
But we know the percentages that are in there. We don't know the pattern at all.
Bill:
No, which presumably will be very relevant. What, it was 20% red, 60% white, and then another 20% black?
Dani:
But then it said that a couple of other colours might be used before the red, which does sound like we've got sort of an ordering to it, which is curious.
Tom:
So what is this imitating? This has to be a pattern of a thing that appears somewhere else in the world.
Bill:
My first thought of something that you wouldn't be able to notice as easily if the scarf was being worn 'cause you would wrap it around yourself to wear it – but if you splayed it out, what if it was— Well, I was gonna say something stupid like, what if it was 1–1 from Mario? People very often reference the first level of Super Mario Bros. – Super Mario 1–1. And so you could do that whole thing as one long horizontal strip of the full level.
What if it's the Bayeux Tapestry? And you can't quite – if you extend it, you're like, "Look, there's— he's being shot in the eye with an arrow." But if you wrap it up, it's like, it's just a mixture of colours. Can't quite tell. Orientation seems to matter.
Michelle:
That's a good guess, but I feel like there's more colours in the Bayeux Tapestry.
Dani:
Well.
Bill:
Maybe.
Tom:
Yeah, the colours here are red, white, and black. So what's black and white and red all over?
Dani:
(cackles)
Tom:
It's a newspaper. Like, the red is the tabloid red title at the top, and the rest is news print somehow.
Dani:
And the other colours are maybe if they had a photo on the front page.
Tom:
Yeah, yeah.
Bill:
Yeah.
Dani:
I do like the idea of going into this mosaic vibe of you've gotta lay it out and then walk really far back to be able to appreciate it.
Bill:
It's one of those Magic Eye puzzles.
Dani:
Oh, no. I can't do those.
Bill:
Yeah. What do— Surely there's something— some image that we know collectively as a trio.
Michelle:
You definitely know it.
Bill:
It's red, white, and black. Or black, white, and red.
Michelle:
The bit with the order of colours was a good place to go down.
Dani:
Well, yeah, as soon as we started listing colours in an order, I was thinking of flags, but the ratios are unusual for flags as is the – and maybe there's some other colours. Flag designers usually don't appreciate that.
Bill:
Usually you know the colours in a flag. Red like a sunset. White like the white sands the Atacama Desert. And black... like... something.
Tom:
There are football scarves as well, which have team logos or something like that. So you have to hold it up to get the message out.
Bill:
Oh, that's true.
Tom:
But I don't see that as, like, white, black, and red. There are definitely teams with those colours, but... 60% white.
Dani:
Well, if it was about a sports team colours, then I would hope that Michelle would have enough tact to say, "You might know this," and not, "You do know this image."
Tom:
I've been assuming that these are... I mean, I don't know how to describe it as horizontal or, like— they could be latitudinal. Like, as you move down the long part of the scarf...
Bill:
Oh, like it's red for a while and then it's white for even longer and then eventually it's black at the end?
Dani:
Oh, that was how I drew it.
Tom:
Yeah, but you could flip that 90 degrees. As you draw the scarf out horizontally, it could be red at the top, then white, then black at the bottom.
Bill:
Yeah. I think I was picturing the latter.
Tom:
Which would be... That would be a white centre with red on one side, black on the other side.
Bill:
But that would be just as noticeable worn as it would be not worn, right? No one's like, "Is that red, white, and black?" "Oh, my gosh, it is! You took it off, and now I know that it is." It can't just be three blocks of colour. That's just as interpretable...
Tom:
When you're wearing the scarf, yes.
Bill:
Worn or not. There's gotta be some, like, if you...
Dani:
Are we going fame— Is it a mosaic of some sort of a famous artwork? That's all I've got in my head right now, and I can't think of what famous artwork is primarily red, black, and white.
Michelle:
It is actually blocks, like Bill said.
Bill:
Ooh!
Tom:
Oh, okay.
Dani:
Oh, okay. So it's a Mondrian painting. Gotcha.
Bill:
So is it like, for a while it's just red, and then for a while, it's just white?
Michelle:
Yeah. So think about if you're not wearing the scarf, how might you... arrange the scarf?
Dani:
You could fold— they actually have it folded. Like, a MAD magazine folding effect is happening rather than... circled around a neck.
Bill:
Or just hanging up from its centre?
Michelle:
Keep going.
Tom:
Okay. So you've got it hanging on the washing line or hanging— or, like, hung up half of it... So it's white... down both sides. Then one of the ends is black. The other end is red, maybe with a bit more stuff at the bottom.
Dani:
Another way of storing it could be if you hyper roll it up so that it's, you know—
Bill:
Oh, it's like a snail that's red in the centre and then white and then black.
Tom:
Oh, which would make it look like a target?
Bill:
Which would make it look like a target!
Michelle:
Are targets red in the middle and then— Aren't they usually red and—
Bill:
Or a dartboard?
Dani:
Red, then green?
Michelle:
You're getting there.
Bill:
You actually roll it up, red in the middle, then this ring of white, and then a thinner ring of black. Black, white, red – that's a target.
Michelle:
Sometimes the red is a little bit pinker, if that helps. It doesn't— It could be lots of different colours. Plus the extra colours. But you're getting extremely close.
Bill:
It's like— yeah. It's like a black ring with a white centre and then a red thing in the middle of that that might have other colours in it which makes it an eye. It looks like an eye. Like a red eye to promote the movie Red Eye starring... whoever's in that. Starring... starring...
Dani:
Rachel McAdams.
Michelle:
So a popular choice of colour for one of the other colours might be green.
Bill:
Hmm.
Tom:
Black ring around the outside. Big white section.
Michelle:
Yep, so 20%. Yeah. 60% white. Little bit of red in the middle.
Dani:
Maybe green.
Bill:
Green like the eyes of Cillian Murphy who I've remembered is the person who starred in the movie Red Eye.
Tom:
(laughs)
Dani:
Yes.
Michelle:
Coincidentally, I'm holding one.
Dani:
What?
Michelle:
(laughs) I actually have one.
Tom:
What? Is this a flag?
Michelle:
It's not a flag 'cause it's circular. But what else do you associate with specific countries?
Bill:
Yeah, a coat of arms. A...
Tom:
A map, a...
Michelle:
Go away from symbols. Things that you enjoy from different countries. And every country has one of these.
Bill:
Snacks.
Michelle:
Or multiple of these. Mm!
Tom:
Food. It looks like a food of some sort.
Dani:
That's a disappointing pizza.
Tom:
It's a sushi roll!
Michelle:
(laughs) Yes.
Dani:
Ohhh!
Bill:
Ohhh! It's a sushi roll.
Dani:
Aww.
Michelle:
Yes. (holds up roll)
Dani:
Oh, wow! You really do have that!
Michelle:
So I'm holding one, which I made a really skinny one because I was just trying to get the design right. But yeah. It's like once you roll it up, you've got, like, the reddish salmon in the middle, then you've got, like, a bit of avocado, lettuce, and then all the rice. My one doesn't have much rice. And then the seaweed on the outside.
Tom:
Because the seaweed is 20% when you pull it out. But it's the widest part. It's a circumference. So the 20% on the outside looks tiny. The 20% on the inside looks big. That's infuriating! How do you have one of those?
Dani:
I didn't consider that.
Tom:
Did that question just get sent to you and you're like, "Oh, I have one"?
Michelle:
Yeah. I was like, yeah, actually, I designed one a while back.
Tom:
That's amazing.
Bill:
That's crazy.
Tom:
Alright, here we go.
In 1270, roof sections of the episcopal palace in Viterbo, Italy were removed. The roof didn't need repair, and the material wasn't valuable. Why did the locals feel compelled to do this?
I'll say that again.
In 1270, roof sections of the episcopal palace in Viterbo, Italy were removed. The roof didn't need repair, and the material wasn't valuable. Why did the locals feel compelled to do this?
Dani:
Now, as a famously lazy person, if I had, say, a flood on the floor of a place that I lived and I didn't know what to do about it, and didn't really want to remove the water, I might just open up the roof and let the sun do the work for me. Just think, the roof was fine. Maybe the floor wasn't.
Bill:
Ah, I think the power of God compelled them.
Tom:
Mm, you could kind of argue that very, very loosely. Uh, but you're right to pick up on episcopal palace. This is, uh– this is religious.
Bill:
This is religious.
Michelle:
Who lives in an epis– I can't say that word– palace? Is it like the priest or the king or–
Bill:
I think I'm confusing it with a different word, with, like, ecumenical, which is in reference to bishops. But, uh, maybe bishops! Uh, Episcopalians live in an episcopal palace. Um–
Michelle:
Was his hat too tall?
Bill:
Yeah, oh, brutal hat. Hittin' on the roof. And he just hinted to the townsfolk like, "Oh, my hat just keeps getting knocked off by this darn roof! "If only someone would remove it for me! "No, no, please! It's all right! "Don't worry about it. I'll just straighten my hat and keep giving the sermon."
Dani:
I keep thinking you're done.
Tom:
The character work goes on! I don't wanna mock Bill for it. It's good character work.
Dani:
There is a "Simpsons" episode– he does character work, I do "Simpsons–" where, uh, they wanted to bring God in as a witness to a court case. So they opened up a roof panel to let the sun beam in and the sun beam was God.
Bill:
Is that– is that what happened?
Tom:
No. I–I–I'm staying quiet because there are several things you've said that are sort of related to the answer. Big hats certainly related.
Dani:
What?
Bill:
Was the person doing– were they doing, uh, masses in this building and he just went real hard on the incense? He was swinging the censer over and they were just like, "We gotta let this out!" And so they took the roof off? And the roof was the only way. They didn't think of opening– you can't open a window! They're stained glass!
Michelle:
But the roof– destroying the roof is fine.
Bill:
Pull that roof off. Here we go. Alright.
Dani:
It's not valuable, apparently.
Michelle:
Insurance scam.
Dani:
That's usually the answer.
Bill:
Yeah, what compelled them?
Tom:
The townsfolk had done a few other things in frustration.
Michelle:
Was there a bird stuck in there?
Bill:
There's a dove in this church!
Dani:
How could big hats be related?
Bill:
Oh, wait, was big hats a good–
Tom:
Big hats was actually pretty good, yeah.
Bill:
Oh, no!
Tom:
Um, there wasn't a bird stuck in there.
Bill:
Yeah, did they need to, like, remove the roof to get the organ in or out? A famously large thing in a– in a religious building that you probably can't get through a door. You think an organ's the size of a door?
Michelle:
Is it the pipe organ? 'Cause the pipes were too tall? Like hats.
Bill:
They had–did they have to get something out of or into the church that they couldn't normally?
Tom:
Uh, they definitely wanted to get something out of the church, yes.
Bill:
The palace, I suppose.
Dani:
Was it the people? Were they stuck in the church?
Tom:
Now we're getting close.
Dani:
There's also a "Simpsons" episode where that happens!
Bill:
There's also a Lyle Lovett song where that happens. Um...
Dani:
Oh, my.
Bill:
That's just for me and however–the small amount of Lyle Lovett fans who listen to Tom Scott's "Lateral." I know you're out there. And you know–you know what I'm talking about.
Dani:
I forget. Do we know geographically where we were in this question? I remember temporally, but not geographically.
Tom:
Viterbo, in Italy.
Bill:
And I've forgotten temporally. When are we?
Tom:
1270.
Bill:
Oh, all right! Lyle Lovett wasn't even born yet!
Dani:
I don't know what the weather gets like in Viterbo so I–I don't know if we're dealing with a– did snow freeze this place shut or something?
Bill:
I mean, we're getting early enough that there's a possible level of superstition that might be more, like– they were just like, "Oh, there's a ghost in here. We gotta open the–"
Michelle:
We gotta get the spirits out. The very tall spirits out.
Tom:
Yeah, you block it up, open the roof, and then you fill it with holy water and it'll get it out.
Dani:
Yeah, but the people had– you know, the people had done stuff in frustration which makes me think stuck.
Bill:
Yeah.
Dani:
Stuck and big hats.
Tom:
And wanting to get something out, yes.
Bill:
They wanted to get... (stammering) You know, it wasn't people out, right? It wasn't, like, just escaping, or was it?
Tom:
It was people.
Bill:
Okay, so people needed to get out through the roof.
Tom:
Mm!
Bill:
Because they were being kept in.
Tom:
No, actually, if anything, the opposite problem.
Bill:
They couldn't get in. The priest had barred the door and he said–
Michelle:
Is it like a Quasimodo situation? Like, was someone, like, in there seeking sanctuary and then they needed them out for a court case? A witch?
Tom:
It's not seeking sanctuary. But I think you're right that they wouldn't leave. I'll give you that. They wouldn't leave. The local priest refused to leave, but he was a real bad priest and they're like, "Get outta here!"
Michelle:
And he ate so much that he couldn't get out the door.
Dani:
That's a great– that's a great form of protest.
Bill:
Talk about indulgence!
Tom:
Hey!
Bill:
I dunno. There's a joke there about the church in the 1270s.
Tom:
Yeah! Yeah, there's a solid 13th-century medieval religion joke there.
Bill:
Yeah. We're all enjoying it.
Dani:
This is absolutely my wheelhouse.
Bill:
Anyone who doesn't like Lyle Lovett at least likes church history.
Tom:
All right, let me run through what you've got so far 'cause it's been a bit scattershot. There are people in this church.
Bill:
People at church.
Tom:
The locals would like them to leave. You've got that.
Bill:
Get out of my church.
Tom:
That is why they're removing the roof. What might be going on here? Why have they got to this point? What is–what is taking so long inside that church?
Dani:
Ah. What do people do in churches? A really big wedding or funeral. It's the–I don't know what 1270 is like.
Tom:
I'm gonna remind you of the final thing, uh, picked up which was big hats.
Michelle:
Have they not chosen a Pope?
Tom:
Correct!
Bill:
Oh, it's a palace! Of course it's not a church! It's a palace!
Tom:
That was the other clue, yes. This is an episcopal palace in Viterbo. Uh, there was political instability in Rome so the election took place 50 miles north in an episcopal palace.
Dani:
Wow!
Tom:
How long do you think they'd been in there?
Dani:
Oh, no.
Bill:
Oh, how long does it take to choose a Pope? This is noteworthy. Let's start small. They were in there for a week.
Tom:
You know what? I'm gonna steal a joke from another show I do here and do "Price is Right" rules. Closest without going over.
Dani:
Oh, dear God.
Tom:
Bill, are you sticking with a week, or are you going–
Bill:
No, I'm gonna jump up to eight months.
Tom:
Eight months. Michelle?
Dani:
Ooh.
Michelle:
Two-and-a-half years.
Tom:
Two and a half years. Dani?
Dani:
I hate this! Now I have to go huge!
Bill:
No, just go for a day. Get it under.
Dani:
But I don't think that's true. Uh, I'm going– yeah, I'll cheap out. I'll go with exactly–no, squatters rules. I'm going seven years.
Tom:
Michelle, two years, ten months of deliberations in total. Yes. Uh, two factions reached deadlock. They had been in there since 1268. It was now 1270.
In frustration, the mayor closed the city gates, locked the palace, rationed their food, boarded up the windows, and eventually removed segments of the roof to force them to make a decision.
Pope Gregory X was elected after two years and ten months of deliberations. What was one of the things he introduced.
Dani:
Gregory–the calendar!
Bill:
The cale–yeah! The calendar! Um, indulgences.
Tom:
Very relevant to this question and very relevant to the news not that long ago as we recorded this.
Dani:
Uh, just official conclaving?
Bill:
Oh, yeah.
Tom:
Conclaving. Yes.
Bill:
Conclaving.
Dani:
Ah.
Tom:
He introduced the formal process of a conclave which has happened ever since.
Bill, it is your question.
Bill:
This question was sent in by Owen T. Thank you, Owen.
A medical team gave photos of moles and skin cancers to an AI model to improve detection rates. Initially, the results were promising. However, a 2021 report showed that the model was actually quite dumb. Why?
And I'll give that to you again.
A medical team gave photos of moles and skin cancers to an AI model to improve detection rates. Initially, the results were promising. However, a 2021 report showed that the model was actually quite dumb. Why?
Tom:
We've got two Australians on this question, one of whom's an expert in skin science and beauty.
Dani:
Oh, yeah.
Michelle:
I feel like I should know this. I know a lot of people doing research in this area. So, I shouldn't have said that. Now it's extra embarrassing.
Tom:
I feel like I should know this 'cause it's– it's my wheelhouse, this, like, tech stuff, so my assumption is the model is picking up on something else.
Dani:
So you're thinking that's more a false positive thing than a false negative thing. I think that's fair.
Tom:
Or there's–there's a leak in the data somewhere. Like they're–they're picking up something else. Like the–like the files are tagged as "mole one" and "benign one" and actually the model can just read that. And it's just going, "Well, the files given to me with the word 'mole' in them, those are clearly– those are clearly moles."
Dani:
Can't argue with that.
Bill:
Tom, you are– you are fairly close. But I will say I don't believe it was given access to the metadata of these things. It had the visuals to work from.
Tom:
Okay.
Dani:
I was wondering, remember that thing that went around of the, uh, viral picture that everyone was saying, "Here is a closeup of a planet," and then it turned out to be a piece of salami that just happened to look very planet-y? Was something similar going on there? It identified chocolate drops as cancerous moles? Something like that?
Bill:
You're getting further away.
Dani:
Okay, okay.
Michelle:
What on the body looks like a mole that they could be misinterpreting?
Dani:
Depending on–there are– ooh.
Michelle:
There's not much that looks like a mole.
Tom:
It's basically intended to tell the difference between benign mole and cancerous mole, presumably. Like, they're sending– they're sending pictures of blemishes to it.
Dani:
All right, so we can say what some of the things that are meant to distinguish a scary mole. I think we're all of an age where we've had to be paranoid about these things.
Tom:
Yes. Yes.
Dani:
Especially in Australia. So color and shape and change tend to be the things that they ask you to look for. So what could it be doing wrong there?
Tom:
I remember a story from years ago where– possibly apocryphal–where a model had been trained by sending it alternate images of A and B, and A and B. So it just learned that every other image was to be classified one way. It learned the lesson, "Benign, not benign, benign, not benign," and that, "Oh, okay. So the even-numbered ones are the bad ones." But again, that feels like metadata. That feels like–
Bill:
Yeah, it–look, it has a very similar feel to the correct answer, but that is not it. Dani, you were onto something talking about how we talk about moles. Why–what we care about when we're looking at them. I'd also like to point out that on this lateral thinking podcast, not a single one of you questioned whether we were talking about all blemishes. Maybe it was skin cancers and little rodents.
Dani:
Yeah. You're assuming that just 'cause we didn't say it, we weren't all thinking it.
Tom:
Yeah, I was thinking it.
Bill:
I'm still gonna admonish.
Tom:
Okay, what if the photos of bad stuff have, like, a ruler in the picture, or something like that? Or there's something else?
Michelle:
Or a circle. Like a marker circle.
Tom:
Yeah!
Dani:
Something about scale is being really messed up?
Bill:
Tom Thomas Scott. Any time it saw a ruler in a picture, it went, "Well, that must have cancer."
Tom:
Oh!
Bill:
That's cancer. They're measuring it.
Yes, that is 100% right.
Tom:
What do you mean? It was Dani saying size!
Bill:
Yes. Yes, exactly. It was all size. Uh–
Tom:
Because if you're just getting, like, the first test done, like, "Oh, let's take a photo of it. Fine." Like, at the point where they're doing more deep sampling, "Oh, yeah, get the ruler on. Get the–" oh.
Bill:
Yes, as soon as you suspect the thing of being– or a blemish of being, uh, cancerous, you would usually have a photo of it taken with a ruler in the photo to show, "Oh, here's the current size of it, this is why we're worried, look at this." That's part of that process.
Dani:
And so that you could take another one later and measure against it.
Bill:
Exactly. So it learned that if there is a ruler in the picture, it is more likely that it is a cancerous growth rather than something benign. It was being distracted, and all it was looking for were rulers.
Tom:
Thanks to Conall Knight for this next question.
Dima, a user interface designer, hung seven colourful paper rolls of varying length on a wall. The longest, which continued onto the floor, was labelled '17,161' and '86'. What did this mean, and what was this public installation's two-word title?
I'll say that again.
Dima, a user interface designer, hung seven colourful paper rolls of varying length on a wall. The longest, which continued onto the floor, was labeled '17,161' and '86'. What did this mean, and what was this public installation's two-word title?
Bill:
Okay. I was busy drawing seven... pieces of... fake paper roll.
Dani:
Beautiful.
Bill:
What was the number? 17,000...
Dani:
17,161.
Tom:
Yeah, you don't need the exact numbers, but it's a lot.
Dani:
Oh, okay.
Michelle:
And was the 86 on the same long one, or was it on the shorter one?
Dani:
Yeah, was it like, ampersand 86, or—
Tom:
Those numbers were both for the long one.
Bill:
Yeah, so—
Dani:
If they are some— If they're some form of measurement, that's a pretty wild difference. Not impossible but... pretty intense difference. It could be really narrow – 86 somethings wide and 17,000 somethings long. Not impossible.
Bill:
And this is like an art installation. Is this my— This is my understanding.
Tom:
Yeah.
Bill:
So it's like, it's trying to make a point. Like, this is how much... paper you use every time you send a text. Ooh, I don't like you!
Dani:
It reminds me— You know what that reminds me of? It doesn't work with seven, I don't feel, though maybe you could abbreviate this.
An xkcd comic that is trying to come up with an illustration of climate change to show exactly where we are in relation to history of the global mean temperature and how much we have increased the temperature or how much it's decreased over time, and you can just see tiny changes for millennia upon millennia and then for the last 100 years suddenly a massive rightward shift.
So that's definitely something if you abbreviated that, yeah. Small changes for the first six, and then one massively long rolling one to show current climate crisis change. Something—
Bill:
There's 17,000 climates!
Dani:
Exactly. Thank you.
Bill:
Or 86° Fahrenheit.
Michelle:
(chuckles)
Dani:
And importantly, "climate change" is two words. I think we've cracked it.
Tom:
(laughs)
Bill:
Yeah, are they— is a— these seven rolls, are they in an— do they get bigger every time or they sort of spread out, do we think?
Dani:
I gotta get a good visualisation.
Bill:
You know, 'cause it's–
Michelle:
Thinking, like, seven— things that are seven, like rainbow colours.
Bill:
Yes.
Michelle:
Continents, maybe. I don't know. That could be completely wrong.
Tom:
These are related to his job. User interface designer.
Bill:
Oh, that's right. They're a user interface designer. So... something to do with user interface!
Dani:
Those are the sorts of words that when they're put together they make my brain panic in that way of, "Oh, no. I am unqualified for this." And I know that you've gotta push past that feeling but—
Bill:
This is a— Hey, if you have this many options on your website, this is how long your drop-down menu will be.
SFX:
(guests snickering)
Tom:
Now, not that, Bill, but closer than you might think.
Bill:
Okay. Alright.
Dani:
Options, or drop-downs. Hmm.
Bill:
Yes. I've got seven things. One of them's really big. Don't do it that way. That's bad user interface.
Tom:
Actually, they're all pretty big.
Bill:
They're all pretty big. Okay.
Tom:
And I wouldn't focus too much on the seven.
Bill:
It's the amount of energy it takes to run a ChatGPT query.
Michelle:
(snickers)
Bill:
It's a lot. Compared to a Bing search, compared to a Google search.
Tom:
I think people would be surprised by the length of the paper, yeah.
Bill:
It is the amount of code needed to be written to make a small widget appear on a website.
Tom:
Now, again, not that, but you've picked up on something there that the rolls were not blank.
Bill:
I could picture that instead of being an art installation by a UI designer, the idea of a coding demonstration of, I'm gonna create this same effect and I'm gonna demonstrate the efficiency of good code writing. If I did it all in just nested if-statements, it's this long, that's insane. But look. This one's better and this one's better. And then the final one is something I don't understand about programming.
Like, I could picture that being a lesson that you would give and everyone'd go, "Whoa, oh my gosh!" But—
Tom:
It's not really public art installation.
Bill:
No, no one walking through is gonna be like, "Alright, cool, man. I guess I won't nest my if-statements."
SFX:
(others laughing)
Bill:
"Uhm, see ya." (chuckles) Like, what...
Dani:
Is there something fun that it could be that more people would just find light and amusing and an interesting thing to say?
Bill:
Or shocking. Horrifying.
Dani:
Here is the code to make your computer play "Happy Birthday". Again, I don't think it's code. We didn't feel like we'd hit on something there, but—
Tom:
Shocking and horrifying, maybe. Perhaps a bit strong, but something like that.
Michelle:
I dunno. I was thinking the if-statements were good. Like, this is how much it takes to code, I dunno... Flappy Bird, if you tried to code it.
Tom:
If you move away from code...
Bill:
Yeah, 'cause it's UI.
Tom:
To something that people are more used to seeing, then yes.
Dani:
God, is it just that certain websites that scroll down really far? Something along those lines?
Michelle:
Length of Wikipedia pages?
Tom:
Now we're getting close. Now we're getting close. Normally you would just be scrolling down this.
Bill:
Oh! Oh! Is it to do with—
Michelle:
How long you spend on—
Bill:
On, like, an— on Instagram or TikTok.
Michelle:
Yeah. Yeah.
Bill:
There's, like, a feed as you scroll through.
Tom:
Oh!
Michelle:
Twitter.
Bill:
Or a Facebook page.
Michelle:
Facebook—
Tom:
Not quite, but you've now got what those colours are. They're the corporate identities for Twitter and Instagram and Facebook and Snapchat.
Bill:
How long everybody spends on them every day. How...
Tom:
How long is correct. And you've got the companies, and it's something that everyone here will have dealt with.
Bill:
Let's go— Hey, let's do the answer two words at a time. I'll start. How long...
SFX:
(others laugh in turn)
Dani:
A person... Take it away, Michelle.
Michelle:
Oh, no. Spends on...
Tom:
Okay. How long a person spends on... maybe would spend on if any of us actually did do this.
Bill:
Oh. How long...
Tom:
This is something all of us have just scrolled by.
Dani:
Is it the ads in some fashion? I scroll past those.
Tom:
Maybe you didn't even click on it.
Bill:
Is it how much you watch without actually selecting to watch anything? How much is auto-played at you?
Tom:
The fact that no one's thought of this yet, that is exactly the point of this exhibition.
Dani:
Interesting.
Tom:
Where might you find long, long, long sections of text?
Michelle:
Is it the terms and conditions?
Tom:
Yes, it is.
Bill:
Terms and conditions that you never read!
Dani:
Oh!
Tom:
Yes.
Dani:
That's exciting!
Bill:
That's too long a terms and condition. That should be illegal.
Tom:
What are the numbers on the floor? What's 17,161?
Michelle:
The word count?
Tom:
Yeah. That's the word count. What's 86?
Bill:
How many hours it would take you to read it.
Tom:
How many minutes, yes. That is an 86-minute read.
Bill:
You don't know how slow I read.
Tom:
(laughs)
Michelle:
(snickers)
Tom:
So, last question. What was this public installation's two-word title?
Dani:
"I Accept."
Bill:
Yeah.
Tom:
"I Agree", yes. Spot on there, Dani. Well done. This was "I Agree" by Dima Yarovinsky, a UX designer and visual communications student, to visualise the power of large corporations. Dani, your question whenever you're ready.
Dani:
Absolutely.
This one has been sent in by Vasilii Popov. Thank you so much.
According to Khrushchev's memoirs, Turkey once complained that Armenia's Soviet emblem contained Mount Ararat, which was no longer in Armenian territory. What was the USSR's witty and compelling counterargument?
I'll read it one more time.
According to Khrushchev's memoirs, Turkey once complained that Armenia's Soviet emblem contained Mount Ararat, which was no longer in Armenian territory. What was the USSR's witty and compelling counterargument?
Bill:
I have a thought.
Dani:
Is it witty an compelling?
Bill:
I mean, maybe. Depends what your standards are. It's definitely compelling. Which is them agreeing to fix the error by redrawing the borders of–
Tom:
Oh!
Bill:
Right? Oh, you're right! That is an oversight! We're gonna take Ararat back.
Dani:
Oh, no!
Bill:
That's pretty compelling to stop complaining about it. No, it's fine! Don't worry about it! We can keep it simple!
Dani:
Oh, you're gonna complain? We'll start a war.
Bill:
Yeah!
Dani:
Um, to–to the best of my knowledge, Mount Ararat is still a Turkey thing, right?
Bill:
Well, that's 'cause they stopped complaining.
Dani:
Oh, right.
Tom:
I've been trying to think of puns and it has only just occurred to me that these will not be in English. Whatever this is, it's gonna be translated.
Dani:
Very fair.
Tom:
So it can't just be, like, a pun on what it sounds like.
Dani:
That's reasonable as a thought.
Tom:
Just to be clear, like, Turkey was complaining that it's on Armenia's emblem.
Dani:
Yes, saying, "Armenia, I kind of have a problem "with your emblem. You've got our mountain on it. What's up with that?"
Tom:
Armenia? Hardly knew her. No, that doesn't work.
Bill:
What do we know about Mount Ararat, Turkey, and Armenia?
Michelle:
Is Mount Ararat, like, the Ark one?
Tom:
Yeah, it's where Noah's Ark was purported to have landed.
Dani:
Oh, really?
Bill:
Hmm.
Dani:
You can tell that it's clearly relevant to the answer based on my response.
Bill:
Yeah, what would you say? If–Tom, pretend you're the Soviet Union.
Tom:
Okay. Hold on. Hold on. Let me get into character as–
Dani:
Ah, this old chestnut.
Tom:
Uh, to be fair, we're looking for the Soviet's response, not Khrushchev's response here, right?
Bill:
Yeah, just–you're just a general Soviet Union.
Dani:
Yeah, Khrushchev's memoirs just happened to be where we got this from.
Tom:
I'm the Soviet Union, yes. Go ahead. I'm not gonna do the accent.
Bill:
I'll–I'll be Turkey.
Tom:
Okay.
Bill:
Um, and I will do the accent.
Tom:
Yeah. Michelle, congratulations. You're Armenia.
Bill:
Oh, you can be Armenian.
Tom:
Yeah.
Bill:
Here we go. I'll do–here's– here's the accent. (clears throat) Here's the story.
Alright, so, I'm trying to– I'm gonna get mad already, right? And I'm thinkin', that's in– that's in Turkey, right? But here's Armenia– look at 'em over there. They–they're all like, "Oh, we got Ararat now on our crest," and I find that personally to be a bit disrespectful.
So what do you have for– what do you have to say for yourself, Armenia? Do the accent!
Tom:
I was–I knew you weren't going to go for the accent, but I was like, "What–what route are we going down here?"
Alright, yeah, we're going cockney, whatever. Fine.
Bill:
What if I had a perfect– like–like, pitch perfect absolutely spot-on, like, Turkish, like, "Oh, that's someone from Ankara."
Tom:
How would I know?
Bill:
But wouldn't it be cool?
Tom:
Oh, it's be great.
Bill:
So yeah, how did that go?
Tom:
Um, you've teed me up to give the answer here and unfortunately I'm imagining myself a Soviet diplomat and the first thing as this formal request comes in over the wire or by post and just go, "Oh, no, now I've gotta deal with this." That's like–
Bill:
Mm-hmm.
Dani:
And don't forget you are the most witty and compelling diplomat that there could ever be.
Tom:
That sounds like you're giving me an AI prompt.
Bill:
Please respond to Turkey's complaints about Mount Ararat.
Dani:
Certainly.
Bill:
You are a witty diplomat. Like, 'cause presumably, like, what did it compel them to do? Just stop complaining about Mount Ararat?
Dani:
I think that's fair. I don't think that you should look at compelling insomuch as making them– like, compelling them to do something, but just making them go, "Yeah, all right. Fair enough."
Bill:
Good point. Was the response... "Mate, every mountain looks exactly the same. That's just a different mountain." "Oh, oh, it's got a peak." "Yeah. It's a mountain, dummy." Was that it? That witty and compelling?
Dani:
It's not that. Uh, I think you can do it like if I'm typing into my, uh, chat prompt, "One step wittier."
Tom:
Hah!
Michelle:
Is it like "Thanks for putting our nice mountain on there?" "It's a good mountain. Glad you like it?"
Dani:
Uh, definitely more retort-y.
Tom:
At least they didn't try and steal the real thing.
Dani:
What do we know about Turkey?
Bill:
It's–they said, "Well, you don't have a picture of a bird on your flag, idiots." Like that? About Turkey?
Tom:
It's across two continents.
Dani:
Annoyingly, Tom, yours is great geographical information but Bill is closer to the correct answer.
Tom:
Okay.
Bill:
Uh–oh! Turkey has, uh– does Turkey have a crescent moon on its flag?
Tom:
Yes.
Bill:
And they said, "Hey, Turkey, you got a moon on your flag. That's not in Turkey."
Dani:
You are correct.
Tom:
Hey!
Dani:
They said, "Uhm, you've got the moon on yours. Do you own the moon, Turkey?" And, uh, yep, fair enough. What were they gonna do about that?
Yeah, this is an anecdote that's apparently been around for going on nearly 100 years from now. The truth of it, who can say? But I hope so. 'Cause, fair enough!
Tom:
Which means there's just one order of business left.
Thank you to Ben for sending in this question from the start of the show.
In which non-medical location might you see vomit, nosebleeds, and spots?
Anyone taking a shot at that?
Dani:
Again, Michelle, this isn't beauty exactly, but it feels closer to your things than ours.
Michelle:
I was thinking manga.
Dani:
You're not wrong. There's a lot of nosebleeds in manga.
Bill:
I was thinking it could be, like, in a– like, a concert hall theater. Like, in the nosebleeds section.
Michelle:
Oh, nosebleed section.
Bill:
And the vomit–
Tom:
Yes!
Bill:
Section? Oh, great.
Tom:
Yes, it is. So–
Bill:
It's the nosebleed section. I've listened to Hilltop Hoods.
Tom:
Yep, the nosebleed section is the highest seats in the auditorium where people who get nosebleeds have to lean forward and look down at the stage, so what is a spot?
Dani:
Light?
Tom:
Spotlights are known as spots. Vomit or vomits is a little bit more obscure. Anyone wanna take a guess?
Bill:
It's the exit like in a vomitorium.
Tom:
Yes! Yes, it is. It's the passageways or openings that lead to the seating areas because they are designed to allow people to disperse quickly and that– and ejection is– has the same sort of root as we use vomit for now. That is the vomitorium.
Dani:
Now, I will say, the nosebleed section is something that has caused some contention because some people have learned it as the highest up far away seats. Others have learned it as the super close in section.
Tom:
Oh!
Dani:
That definitely ends up being a divisive argument. I don't know–like, I don't know who ended up being correct. The far off one sounds like it's got more of an origin, but I don't know. Maybe mosh pits are very nosebleedy and that's where that one came from.
Tom:
Yes, vomit, nosebleeds, spots are all theater terms.
Thank you very much to our players. What's going on in your lives? Where can people find you?
We'll start today with Bill.
Bill:
I've often talked about Escape This Podcast, but we also have a show called "Solve This Murder" where we solve murder mysteries, one of us taking the lead as the detective, and if you haven't given that a listen, go and check it out. It's a lot of fun. We write original murder mysteries, try and solve them, and we don't do it brilliantly, but we don't do it poorly.
Tom:
Dani, where can people find you?
Dani:
You can find us at consumethismedia.com or you can just search "Escape This Podcast," "Solve This Murder." We've got good SEO on our side.
Tom:
And Michelle, where can people find you, and what do you do there?
Michelle:
I'm @LabMuffinBeautyScience, I'm on YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok, and I talk about the science behind beauty products, I debunk misinformation, and I talk a bit about how to work out what is and isn't true.
Tom:
And if you wanna know more about this show, you can do that at lateralcast.com where you can also send in your own ideas for questions. We are @lateralcast basically everywhere, and there are full video episodes every week on Spotify.
Thank you very much to Michelle Wong–
Michelle:
Thank you.
Tom:
Dani Siller.
Dani:
Thank you so much.
Tom:
and Bill Sunderland.
Bill:
Thank you. It was wonderful.
Tom:
I've been Tom Scott, and that's been Lateral.
Episode Credits
| HOST | Tom Scott |
| QUESTION PRODUCER | David Bodycombe |
| EDITED BY | Julie Hassett at The Podcast Studios, Dublin |
| MUSIC | Karl-Ola Kjellholm ('Private Detective'/'Agrumes', courtesy of epidemicsound.com) |
| ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS | CherimoyaZest, Vasilii Popov, Owen T., Ben, Ghostbear, Conall Knight |
| FORMAT | Pad 26 Limited/Labyrinth Games Ltd |
| EXECUTIVE PRODUCERS | David Bodycombe and Tom Scott |