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Episode 169: Blue peacock
2nd January, 2026 • Hannah Crosbie and Evan & Katelyn Heling face questions about jewellery japes, needle needs and treasured tags.
Transcription by Caption+
Tom:
When Hope goes on a business trip abroad, she finds it convenient and time-saving to wear stud earrings. Why?
The answer to that at the end of the show. My name's Tom Scott, and this is Lateral.
We have three fantastic guests on today's show. One is a wine writer for The Guardian, and the other two are perhaps best known for looking at objects and thinking, "We need to put that in resin."
SFX:
(Evan and Katelyn laugh)
Tom:
Or to put it another way, one appreciates things that change with age, and the others trap things in plastic to make sure they don't. Let's meet them now!
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Tom:
First of all, let us start with the resin trappers, Evan and Katelyn, welcome back to the show.
Evan:
Hi.
Katelyn:
Hello.
Evan:
Good to hang out again.
Tom:
So, what are you trapping in resin? Will there— As we record this, the time has not approached, but will there be a pumpkin this year?
Evan:
There will be a pumpkin.
Katelyn:
Yes. There will be a pumpkin.
Evan:
This time we're gonna try to... burn it in an oxygen-free environment and basically turn it into just straight carbon.
Katelyn:
Charcoal, yeah.
Evan:
Carbonize it.
Tom:
Wow! Won't that make it really fragile?
Katelyn:
That's why we're gonna put it in resin.
Tom:
Sensible. Yeah. I mean, even for the resin that won't— I was assuming it would crush it, but no. It's permeated, isn't it? It's throughout.
Evan:
Mhm.
Tom:
That's my hand gesture for permeate, those people watching.
Katelyn:
Oh yeah, me too.
Evan:
Now, will it work? I don't know.
Tom:
(cackles) But either way, you got a video out of it.
Evan:
Yes. (chuckles)
Katelyn:
Yeah.
Tom:
Well, very best of luck to you and your pumpkin. People can find you where?
Katelyn:
Evan and Katelyn on YouTube and everywhere.
Tom:
Alright, well, you are joined today by another returning player: wine writer for The Guardian and many other places, Hannah Crosbie, welcome back.
Hannah:
Hello! Thank you so much for having me again, again, again.
Tom:
It is always a joy to have you back on the show. I know very little about wine, so I struggle to find a question for this section.
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Tom:
If I want to look like I know about wine, what are the basics that I should know?
Hannah:
Well, I would say the only thing that you really need to know, and this is something I always say, is how to describe the kind of wine that you like to drink. I think if you're armed with that kind of information, then you can enter pretty much any bottle shop, supermarket, restaurant, and be completely unstoppable.
Tom:
Wow. I don't even know the terms, like the, how it tastes, how it, how— Is there a mouthfeel thing to this?
Hannah:
There's a mouthfeel thing. I think kind of like picking out the dryness of wine that you like.
So when people say like, "Oh, I really like a dry wine." The one thing that a lot of people don't know is that most wine, unless it's denoted as sweet, is dry. So like, unless it's purposefully off-dry or purposefully sweet, then all wine is dry, including whites and reds.
But generally if you can kind of, you know, talk about the spectrum from light and fruity to deep and tannic mouthfeeling, bit more serious, then if you kind of understand what kind of wines that you like along that spectrum, then you're good to go.
Tom:
Well, good luck to you and to Evan and Katelyn on the show today.
Get your corkscrews and your chisels ready as appropriate, because it's time to crack open question one.
Evan:
(pumps arms) Yus!
Tom:
Thank you to an anonymous listener for this question.
On the 3rd of July 1929, the Iola Register ran a story with the headline "Banana Throws Orange Apple". What happened?
On the 3rd of July 1929, the Iola Register ran a story with the headline "Banana Throws Orange Apple". What happened?
Evan:
Is it a... monkey named Banana, who threw... an apple that was painted orange?
Hannah:
To a monkey that was also called— that was called Orange.
Evan:
Oh, oh!
Hannah:
Is it two different— Is it the— There are two things called Banana and Orange, and one of them threw an apple to the other.
Evan:
Ooh.
Tom:
You have miraculously managed to get every bit of that wrong... but in a way that is almost right, if that makes sense.
SFX:
(Evan and Katelyn cackle)
Hannah:
Oh?
Katelyn:
Okay, so—
Tom:
Big picture, you're right. Stupid headline. Something trivial is going on... But every aspect of that, as soon as you go under the details? No. No.
Hannah:
Oh god.
Evan:
(laughs)
Katelyn:
But it does make me think that—
Evan:
Can I write it down?
Tom:
Yes.
Katelyn:
Oh yeah.
Tom:
I'm not gonna prevent you from having a pen and paper.
Evan:
I don't have a pen.
Katelyn:
We don't have a pen.
Tom:
The world, on the other hand, may prevent you from doing it.
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Evan:
Yeah.
Tom:
"Banana Throws Orange Apple".
Katelyn:
Banana Throws Orange Apple.
Evan:
Banana Throws Orange Apple.
Katelyn:
So clearly, there's something interesting going on with the words here.
Tom:
Yes.
Katelyn:
They don't... It's not just names of fruit. It could be names
Hannah:
(gasps)
Katelyn:
of... someone or something. Orange could be a color.
Tom:
Yes, yes. It's—
Hannah:
Orange Apple. Do we mean Apple as in, like an Apple product? I'm thinking—
Evan:
Well, this is 1920-something.
Hannah:
Oh, is it— Oh, sorry. Yeah, yeah, they had those back then, right? Just a very, very rudimentary version.
Evan:
(laughs)
Katelyn:
The iPhone Zero.
Hannah:
The iPhone BC.
Tom:
It's just a backpack with a gramophone in it.
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Evan:
Threw Orange Apple.
Katelyn:
Banana Throws Orange Apple. Also, so this was in the 1920s. It was July.
Tom:
Mhm.
Katelyn:
So it was summertime. And this is a headline. Where was the headline again?
Evan:
But I mean, people back then were trolling too.
Tom:
Well, no, they ran a story with that headline. This was not front page read all about it.
Evan:
Yeah.
Hannah:
Okay.
Katelyn:
Okay.
Evan:
So then, you know, back then people were making jokes and trolling and stuff too, so it's like...
Tom:
Yeah.
Evan:
It's not only people recently invented trolling sensitive humors, you know.
Tom:
(laughs)
Evan:
People would've found that headline funny back then.
Katelyn:
They're being cheeky with it.
Evan:
They're being cheeky with it.
Tom:
Yes.
Evan:
Yeah.
Tom:
Yes, they are.
Evan:
We need to figure out what words don't mean fruit.
Hannah:
Okay.
Tom:
Yes.
Katelyn:
Yeah, what words are fruit and what are not fruit?
Tom:
And I think I'll give you something you said earlier. When I was like, all the details are wrong, well, yes, names was definitely right.
Hannah:
So Banana is the name of something and—
Tom:
There's a name in there, is all I'll tell you. At least one of those is a name.
Katelyn:
Okay.
Evan:
At least one is a name. Okay, so... Banana Throws Orange Apple.
Katelyn:
Banana Throws Orange Apple. So it could be, I mean, earlier, were saying like Banana's the name of a monkey. It could be some sort of pet name, but it could also be a nickname for something.
Hannah:
Or a banana has thrown someone.
Tom:
(stares silently)
Katelyn:
Oh.
Hannah:
So I'd—
Katelyn:
Or someone threw a game.
Tom:
Hannah's very close there. How might the word 'throws' be interpreted there?
Hannah:
Slipping on a banana peel.
Tom:
Slipping on a banana peel.
Hannah:
Yay, the old classic.
Tom:
You've got 'Banana Throws'. The rest is actually, well, you've kind of already said it.
Evan:
Okay, okay. So banana— Banana is a banana peel.
Tom:
Yep.
Evan:
Banana is a real thing.
Tom:
Yep.
Katelyn:
Throws as in like...
Evan:
Slips.
Tom:
Mhm.
Evan:
Slips someone.
Katelyn:
Banana like throws off.
Evan:
'Orange Apple'.
Katelyn:
Orange Apple, Banana Throws—
Evan:
So one of those, Orange or Apple, is a name.
Tom:
Well, actually, at least one of those is a name.
Evan:
At least one of those is a name.
Katelyn:
(whispering) Orange Apple.
Hannah:
So someone called Apple, but is orange?
Tom:
Okay, more than one of those is a name.
Hannah:
Okay. (laughs)
Evan:
(laughs)
Katelyn:
Okay.
Evan:
'Banana Throws Orange Apple'.
Katelyn:
There's not someone named Orange Apple is there? First and last name?
Tom:
Yes, there is.
Hannah:
Oh, wow!
Evan:
Oh my gosh! Banana throws Orange Apple.
Katelyn:
What?
Evan:
So there's a person named Orange Apple, and he slipped on a banana.
Tom:
Yep. A young boy was hospitalised after slipping on a banana peel in Chicago and sustaining only minor injuries. His name was Orange Apple. And the newspapers were like, that's a headline!
Hannah:
They weren't wrong.
Evan:
Well you know what's so funny? Tabloids these days are like, "This celebrity named their bird— their child this weird name, Apple Orange."
Tom:
Yep.
Evan:
You know? But they're doing it back then too.
Tom:
Yep. Also marks the Pittsburgh Sun-Telegram for: "Orange Apple Slips on Banana Peel, Falls Plum."
Katelyn:
(laughs heartily)
Hannah:
Nice. Nice. Yeah, that's great.
Katelyn:
Oh my gosh. Wow. Poor kid.
SFX:
(group chuckles)
Tom:
Katelyn, we will go to you for your question, please.
Katelyn:
This question has been sent in by Kira B.
Since Olive was using hooks instead of needles, she had to remember to buy 'Z', not 'S'. What does this mean, and why is it important?
Again.
Since Olive was using hooks instead of needles, she had to remember to buy 'Z', not 'S'. What does this mean, and why was it important?
Evan:
Is this a sewing question?
Tom:
I was thinking knitting or sewing or something like that. Hooks and needles, surely.
Hannah:
I was wondering, if she's kind of like spelling things out, then obviously a hook is better for— sorry. For purposes of the recording, I am trying to— so like hooks are rounded, so that makes an S. Whereas Zed or Zee is straight. So you would need needles. Is it spelling things out? Or have I gone too literal?
Evan:
(snickers)
Katelyn:
Maybe... It's not that you're too literal, but it's not spelling things out.
Evan:
Is it the type of stitching pattern that she's gonna create?
Katelyn:
She's not stitching.
Evan:
Okay.
Hannah:
She's not stitching.
Tom:
But it— this is something fabric arts wise, with hooks and needles. Have we got that?
Katelyn:
Yeah, you're on the right track with hooks and needles. It is... a soft craft.
Tom:
Okay.
Hannah:
Soft craft.
Tom:
But you can just flip that. Unless you're actually using a letter, an S is just a Z backwards. What do you buy that isn't flippable like that? For a fabric art?
Evan:
Maybe there's like an S-type thread and a Z-type thread. And why would they be different, and why are they labeled that way?
Hannah:
Is it called S and Z, or do they just call it S because the symbol looks like a flowing thing, and Z looks like this?
Tom:
Oh!
Katelyn:
You guys are getting very close. Both of you.
Tom:
Just clarifying, Hannah. You're like, S is like a sine wave, and Z is like sawtooth?
Hannah:
Yes, yes, exactly. So maybe the product isn't technically S and Z, but that's what the iconography is.
Tom:
Yeah.
Hannah:
So she's buying Z.
Tom:
Yeah.
Hannah:
And she has hooks.
Tom:
Yeah, she switched to hooks, which means she has to switch to Zee, Zed, instead of S.
Evan:
So it must be like, it must be knitting of some sort, is my guess. Not that we've done any knitting.
Hannah:
You said it was like a soft craft, right, Katelyn?
Katelyn:
It's a soft craft.
Hannah:
Yeah.
Evan:
So I wonder if it's like yarn type, and there are different yarn types used for different needle work.
Katelyn:
You are on the right track.
Hannah:
Oh.
Evan:
Okay. Does it have to do with the diameter or the thickness? No, I can't ask you that many questions.
SFX:
(others laughing)
Evan:
I'm guessing, but—
Hannah:
"What's the answer?"
Evan:
Yeah, it's like, ask the question master 20 questions, and we'll get it.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Katelyn:
You're on the right track with yarn type.
Evan:
Okay.
Hannah:
'Cause there are different thicknesses of needles when you're knitting.
Katelyn:
There might be, but that's...
Hannah:
That's not relevant.
Katelyn:
not really part of the question.
Tom:
I've just drawn lots of sharp angles, lots of swirly sine waves on my paper in front of me, as if that's gonna help.
Katelyn:
So think about the activities where you could use hooks and needles.
Hannah:
Darning, knitting.
Tom:
Crochet.
Hannah:
Crochet.
Katelyn:
And then think about why you might need different types of yarns.
Hannah:
For different temperatures. If you are knitting something that needs to be particularly durable, if you're knitting with... Maybe not necessarily like typical yarn, but something a bit more hardy like... tweed or... I don't know, some kind of a woven metal.
Tom:
Oh, chain mail. She's making chain mail. That's not a soft craft.
SFX:
(Evan and Katelyn cackle)
Hannah:
That's the hardest craft there is.
Katelyn:
It more has to do with... the act of knitting or crocheting, rather than how the garments will be used.
Tom:
We had an accessibility question last time y'all were on the show. And I'm wondering if similarly, it's some kind of adaptation, some kind of changed method that means you're now... hooking stuff in rather than poking it through.
Katelyn:
It is not an accessibility issue. It's a technique-based issue. And if you bought the wrong yarn, you would have a lot of issues in your craft.
Evan:
You need it to be S or Z. Stranded or singles?
Katelyn:
The S and Z—
Hannah:
Zingle.
Katelyn:
Zingles?
Evan:
Zingles.
SFX:
(guests chuckling)
Tom:
I think you get a vaccine for that these days.
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Katelyn:
The S and Z do not stand for longer words.
Evan:
Okay.
Hannah:
Oh.
Katelyn:
It does have to do with how the yarn is stranded.
Evan:
Okay. So is it like—
Tom:
This can't be this technical. It's Lateral. There's gotta be something we're missing here.
Katelyn:
It has to do with the visuals of an S and a Z. And it's not pointy versus curvy. So think about the other...
Tom:
Oh, okay.
Katelyn:
differences between the letters.
Evan:
Oh.
Hannah:
They're flipped. S and Z are flipped. Is that something to do with it? Like we were—
Katelyn:
They are flipped, and that is relevant.
Tom:
Has she switched to going left-handed or something like this? And hook and needle is the phrase for... which way you are leading in?
Katelyn:
No, but it does have to do with the fact that the two of these yarn types are flipped. And you would use... What you use depends on the craft.
Evan:
Wait, wait.
Tom:
Please save us.
Hannah:
Go on, Evan.
Evan:
My brain is coalescing knowledge right now.
Tom:
(belly laughs)
Evan:
It's collating it. Yarn...
If you're using— making yarn from wool, you have all these strands and then you bind them together and you twirl them on all these different things. And my guess is that some yarn is twirled one way, and some yarn is twirled the other way. And if you use the wrong yarn twirl direction, it'll come un-twirled while you're knitting it.
Hannah:
Please say, that's it.
Tom:
Come on.
Katelyn:
That's it.
Evan:
Yay! Oh, gosh!
Hannah:
Yes!
Tom:
We didn't need to know what the details were. We just need to know what yarn was.
SFX:
(guests laugh uproariously)
Katelyn:
Yeah!
Evan:
Think about the makeup of the yarn.
Tom:
Yeah.
Katelyn:
Yes, so... The S and the Z represent the shape that the yarn makes when it's twisted. So when it's twisted one way the diagonal in the twist is like the diagonal in the S, and on the other way, the diagonal is like the diagonal in the Z.
Evan:
Wow.
Katelyn:
And so... the yarn itself can untwist if you buy the wrong type for the craft that you're doing – hooks and needles used in crocheting and knitting respectively. Multithread yarn used in hobbies come in two types, S-plied and Z-plied, and you can tell which one is which by looking at the yarn and comparing the middle part of the letters to how the twist is directed.
So when knitting using the most common Western method, you should use S-plied, which will add twist as you knit, so it tightens it. But if you use Z-plied, you'll remove the twist and make it slack. So you should use Z-plied yarn and avoid S-plied when making crochet 'cause it uses a different technique.
Tom:
Thank you to Peter Scandrett for this question.
In the 1980s, the UK insurance company Guardian Direct advertised their phone number, 0800 28 28 20. What was their mascot?
I'll say that again.
In the 1980s, the UK insurance company Guardian Direct advertised their telephone number, 0800 28 28 20. What was their mascot?
And no, this is not a sponsored question, and to the best of my knowledge, that number no longer works.
SFX:
(Evan and Katelyn laugh)
Evan:
I'm guessing it has to do with like, you know how 'A' is like... You know how on the old cell phones, they used to be like, "call 1-800-I-LOVE-PIZZA", and you'd like type out
Katelyn:
Yeah.
Evan:
the numbers to the letters. I wonder if it's something to do with that.
Katelyn:
That's what my brain went to also. Either that those numbers spell something that could be the mascot. Or even like, could those numbers be in the shape of something that's a masc— that's the mascot? Like if you're dialing it on the phone.
Hannah:
I was gonna tap out.
Evan:
I don't have any notepads.
Hannah:
Because I thought that I might...
Tom:
Oh.
Hannah:
I might already get— yeah, yeah, yeah. So, but then I think that you just had a very similar thought to me, Katelyn.
Tom:
Oh, were you tapping out?
Hannah:
I don't know the answer, but I thought—
Tom:
You should stay in. You should stay in.
Hannah:
Should I stay in?
Tom:
Yes.
Hannah:
I thought that 28, 28 maybe looks like a swan or like a peacock or something like that. 'Cause it's got like the little thing and then the tail like that. The fanning tail.
Tom:
Yeah, they did advertise the number.
Katelyn:
So they advertised the number, not—
Evan:
Oh, they advertised it.
Katelyn:
1-800-I-LOVE-PIZZA.
Evan:
Okay, okay. They advertised the number.
Tom:
Yes.
Hannah:
Mm.
Katelyn:
Okay. Is it spelling something?
Evan:
Like in leet?
Katelyn:
Yeah, like in leetspeak.
Tom:
Man, that's a reference I haven't heard in a few years.
SFX:
(Evan and Katelyn cackle)
Tom:
For the younger folks in the audience, do you wanna explain what that is?
Katelyn:
That's writing things using numbers and symbols instead of letters.
Evan:
So 3 is an E.
Katelyn:
3 is an E.
Evan:
A is a 4, et cetera.
Katelyn:
In this case, 2 would be a Z, 8 would be a B. But that's—
Evan:
Bz-bz-bz.
Tom:
Zb-zb-zo.
SFX:
(Evan and Katelyn laugh)
Katelyn:
It's a bee!
Evan:
It's a bee!
Hannah:
It's a bee!
Katelyn:
Hmm.
Hannah:
So it's not like they look like anything. 'Cause that was gonna be my initial thoughts. 'Cause the 28-28 kinda maybe looked a bit birdlike.
Tom:
It's not, no. And unfortunately you can rule out the T9 texting thing as well.
Evan:
Okay.
Tom:
'Cause there's a zero in there, and that is a space.
Hannah:
Oh.
Katelyn:
Okay.
Evan:
So it's 28 28 28 20?
Tom:
0800 28 28 20.
Hannah:
28 28 20.
Katelyn:
Which would— So, 0800 28 28 20. That would also be— if you're writing it out like a normal number, it'd be 0800... two-eight-two... eight-two... Wait.
SFX:
(Tom and Katelyn laugh)
Katelyn:
I need to write this down.
Evan:
Wait, is that— How many numbers is that? 28, 28, 20?
Tom:
Yeah, we had shorter phone numbers back then.
Evan:
Whaaat?
Tom:
(laughs)
Evan:
I was like, that's only six!
Tom:
Yeah, yeah.
Katelyn:
Okay, yeah.
Tom:
And 0800 for the Americans is just the 'this is a free phone number' code. So the relevant part is that 28 28 20.
Evan:
28 28 20.
Katelyn:
28 28 20.
Evan:
28 28 20.
Tom:
Katelyn... I think you were starting to be on the right lines there.
Katelyn:
Just now going like this?
Tom:
(laughs)
Katelyn:
With my finger?
Tom:
Well... I have been a bit sneaky in how I phrased this.
Hannah:
Phrase it again, please Tom.
SFX:
(group guffawing)
Tom:
Well, Katelyn was doing quite a good job of phrasing it there.
Evan:
Well what did you just say, Katelyn?
Katelyn:
I don't...
Evan:
Use your strong memory.
Hannah:
Oh, is it bouncing? Is it like a... kangaroo or something, 'cause you're kind of going up and down and up and down?
Katelyn:
'Cause I'm just thinking, the '2' would be at the top. The '8' would be towards the bottom.
Evan:
And the '0' is even further down.
Katelyn:
The '0' is even further down.
Tom:
Yep, that's—
Katelyn:
So it is kind of bouncing from top to bottom.
Tom:
It is. And I love that you've also so far named the swan, the peacock, and the kangaroo. The mascot is an animal.
Hannah:
The mascot is an animal.
Evan:
Is it a frog?
Tom:
Why do you think that?
Evan:
Because it's hopping back and forth.
Tom:
Ah, no. Katelyn, you kinda said the number in a different way earlier.
Katelyn:
Oh, okay, so when I was reframing it. Now I was reframing it to be like a seven-digit number.
Tom:
Mhm.
Katelyn:
So I was thinking two-eight-two... and then... eight-two-zero.
Tom:
Mhm.
Katelyn:
282 820. If it was a six-digit number.
Hannah:
(gasps) Oh, oh, oh! I think I've got it.
Tom:
(laughs) I think you've got it as well.
Hannah:
I think I've got it.
Tom:
You see, we— we wouldn't use zero for there.
Hannah:
Oh, we'd say 'oh'. So is it 'to-wit to-wit to-whoo'? Like an owl?
Tom:
It's an owl, yes.
Hannah:
An owl. Yes!
Tom:
Absolutely right.
Evan:
Ohhh!
Tom:
This was phrased as 'oh-800 2-8 2-8 2-oh', which sounds like how we would describe the sound of an owl.
Hannah:
That's so funny.
Katelyn:
Oh!
Evan:
Tw'eight, tw'eight.
Katelyn:
Tw'eight, tw'eight. See, we say...
Hannah:
I like the accent as well.
Katelyn:
Hoo-hoo!
SFX:
(group laughs heartily)
Hannah:
That's what British owls say, yeah.
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Evan:
There are different accents.
Tom:
I did check with David before this question. It's like, we've only got one Brit here. It's like, we'll be fine. We'll be fine.
Katelyn:
Oh yeah. We got there. We got there.
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Katelyn:
That's awesome.
Tom:
Hannah, your question whenever you're ready.
Hannah:
This question has been sent in by Kim.
In 2024, Keegan found a red tag worth 1 million Australian dollars in Northern Territory, Australia. It wasn't placed in a hidden location, and could have been discovered by anyone. What vital piece of equipment did Keegan use?
I'll say it again.
In 2024, Keegan found a red tag worth 1 million Australian dollars in Northern Territory, Australia. It wasn't placed in a hidden location, and could have been discovered by anyone. What vital piece of equipment did Keegan use?
Katelyn:
Okay.
Evan:
So what is a red tag? Is it just like a clothing tag? Is there a certain thing I'm not knowing as an American?
Hannah:
I wouldn't say— Yeah, I wouldn't say so. I don't think that there's— I think it just means a red tag.
Evan:
A red tag, okay.
Katelyn:
A red tag. I mean, I'm like, did this fall— Did it fall off of a spacecraft? And it just happened to land in Northern Territory, Australia? And it's worth a lot of money?
Evan:
And it was 2024.
Tom:
Oh, that's happened before. There's a place in... southwest Australia, I can't remember exactly where it is, called Esperance. And Skylab, when it was deorbited, left a load of debris all over there. And they sent NASA a fine for littering.
Evan:
Oh?
Katelyn:
(chuckles)
Tom:
But now they have a museum with a lot of Skylab debris in it, and tourists visit, So it worked out quite well for them. No one got harmed as far as I know. My first thought was Google Earth. Like vital piece of equipment. Is this like some... not Geoguessr, but someone who looks around Google Earth for interesting things, like, "Oh, that's a weird thing in the desert. What's that?"
Hannah:
Get Geoguessr right off the chat on this one.
Tom:
Agh, okay.
Hannah:
(giggles) No, it is a literal red tag.
Tom:
Hmm.
Evan:
A literal red tag.
Katelyn:
A literal red tag.
Evan:
Is it a drone?
Tom:
We don't know whether this is worth $1 million to him. Which is what I first thought, like it's a prize.
Katelyn:
Mm.
Tom:
Or whether this is just something that's worth $1 million that's fallen off a truck somewhere.
Katelyn:
That's more the direction I was thinking, with falling off a spaceship. But it could be either. It could be... something where he knew it was valuable and was purposely looking for it, or it could be incidental. It happens to be value— valuable. He happened to find it.
Tom:
Radiation. Radiation. There was an incident... a year or two ago? I don't know if the timeline's right. Where some company lost a radioactive source on a road train in Australia? Am I remembering this right?
Hannah:
Who kn— I dunno. That is such a great story, but unfortunately it's—
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Tom:
Okay, I don't— I can't remember. It was somewhere remote in a desert. I dunno if it was a truck in America or a road train in Australia or something like that.
They'd lost a radioactive thing. Not like dangerous, dangerous, but you wouldn't wanna get too close to it. And all they knew is it was somewhere off a truck on a thousand-mile road. And they had to just drive down it very slowly with a Geiger counter and hope it beeped. And they did. And they found it.
And I was just like, is this that story? This is not that story.
Hannah:
That's great.
Katelyn:
(laughs)
Tom:
Oh, thank you to Producer David.
This is Rio Tinto, a mining company in Western Australia, 1,400 kilometre route. And it was found after several days.
Hannah:
Wow.
Evan:
Wow.
Katelyn:
Wow.
Tom:
But that's not this.
Hannah:
(laughs) I mean, to kind of go back to the two theories that you guys put out there, whether it was 1 million Australian dollars to Keegan, or whether it was 1 million Australian dollars, just anyway: It was 1 million Australian dollars, and... it was a sort of treasure hunt, but not in a traditional sense. He was looking for this.
Tom:
Okay.
Evan:
I wonder if it's like a social media stunt or something like that. You know, that's the type of thing that people are doing these days, to get attention and stuff.
Tom:
Oh, that newfangled social media!
Katelyn:
Yeah.
Evan:
(laughs) So, but the question is, what essential tool did he use? So what are some tools you could use in Northern Australia that would help you find a red tag? Which makes me think—
Katelyn:
We don't know—
Tom:
Tame kangaroo. Sorry, Australia. I just, I went for tame kangaroo.
Hannah:
Second kangaroo mention of the podcast.
SFX:
(guests snickering)
Katelyn:
Now we don't know, was the red tag alone? 'Cause when you said kangaroo, it made me think of like... You know how animals will be tagged to track and study them?
Tom:
Oh?
Katelyn:
Was this tag on an animal?
Hannah:
The tag was on an animal.
Tom:
Oh, I went for the lazy stereotype, and it paid off!
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Katelyn:
Was it a kangaroo?
Hannah:
It was not.
Tom:
Okay.
Hannah:
It was not a kangaroo.
Evan:
So, okay, what about a drone with a thermal camera on it? 'cause I know that a lot of times these days, drones with thermal cameras are being used to find missing dogs, missing people, all sorts of stuff. And I feel like a drone mounted thermal camera would be able to find an animal from very far away.
Katelyn:
But how would it know that's the animal with the tag?
Evan:
You have a... The drones nowadays have a thermal camera and a zoom camera.
So what you do is you find the hotspots, you find the animals, and then you zoom in with the zoom camera, and you're like, "Is that the one that was tagged?"
Hannah:
Mm. So that is a very, very high tech way of finding something. But the fun thing about this specific kind of treasure hunt is that anyone who wants to be able to find it can find it. And the equipment that you need is not that high tech.
Evan:
Did they bring food? And that food attracted the animal?
Hannah:
Ohhh! In a way.
SFX:
(group snickering)
Katelyn:
Okay.
Hannah:
But it's not the piece of equipment.
Evan:
Okay.
Katelyn:
The food is not the equipment.
Tom:
Did he have to actually trap the animal somehow? Or is it just enough to take a picture and send it in?
Hannah:
You... (sighs) Yes. So you had to take a photo of the animal.
Tom:
Okay.
Hannah:
And you would only be able to do it if you had, I guess, trapped it in some kind of way.
Tom:
You gotta be close up, okay.
Hannah:
You gotta be close up, yeah.
Katelyn:
Okay.
Tom:
(cracks up) What can you safely do that to in Australia? Everything is trying to kill you. I still go with the lazy Australian stereotypes. Like, sorry.
Katelyn:
I mean, it could be on a bird. Those might not try to kill you, and you would need to get close to that.
Tom:
In Australia, they will. Have ya heard of a cassowary?
Evan:
No.
Katelyn:
No?
Tom:
Oh, imagine an emu, but angrier and with massive claws.
Evan:
Oh wow. I just did a Google search for that. That's horrible.
Katelyn:
Oh yeah. That looks aggressive.
Evan:
Okay, yep, yep.
Katelyn:
Okay, never mind, never mind.
Hannah:
I would go back to the idea that you had about using food.
Evan:
Okay, food.
Hannah:
And how that relates to the equipment.
Katelyn:
Could be like bait on a fishing pole.
Hannah:
Ohp!
Evan:
(cackles)
Tom:
Oh!
Evan:
Oh?
Hannah:
Yeah. So the equipment is...?
Tom:
Bait on a fishing pole.
Katelyn:
A fishing pole?
Hannah:
A fishing pole! (laughs)
Katelyn:
Wow!
Evan:
What?
Hannah:
(laughs)
Evan:
Oh, to draw it near you. So you'd throw the food out, and you'd slowly draw towards you.
Tom:
And this is some fish that someone had tagged?
Hannah:
Mhm.
Tom:
Is this— Wait a minute! This isn't a wild animal. This is like in a fishing pond. Or is this in one of those places where they just stock a pond with fish, so fishermen can have a good time?
Hannah:
So, it is an annual event.
So since 2015, Northern Territory has run the annual Million Dollar Fish event to boost tourism during the off-season. So, barramundi – so sorry if I'm butchering that pronunciation – fish had a numbered red tag attached to them before being released into five popular fishing areas of the region. There are ten of them, and if you're the first person to catch one of them, you won the big prize.
So far, Keegan Payne is the only person to do this.
Participants had to pre-register to take part and could only use a fishing rod or line. 99 other fish worth 10,000 Australian dollars each were also part of the competition.
Evan:
Wow.
Tom:
That's lovely.
Katelyn:
Interesting.
Hannah:
So there are, I mean, it's since 2015, and no one— and only one person has found it so far. So there are potentially hundreds of million dollar fish out there.
Evan:
And can you find them at any time and still get the million dollars?
Hannah:
I don't know. I think maybe it's only off-season.
Tom:
One a year. There'll be a time limit on this. They don't want that price hanging over their heads.
Katelyn:
Yeah, but there's more and more fish out there.
Tom:
Thank you to Alex Sloat for this next question.
Blue Peacock was a British nuclear weapon developed in the 1950s. It was intended to be buried in West Germany to prevent a Soviet invasion. What idea was proposed to solve the problem of cold conditions preventing the mine from working?
I'll say that again.
Blue Peacock was a British nuclear weapon developed in the 1950s. It was intended to be buried in West Germany to prevent a Soviet invasion. What idea was proposed to solve the problem of cold conditions preventing the mine from working?
Evan:
Radioactive material is already warm, right? So could you just put more radioactive material around it, even though that'd make the nuke even more dangerous and horrible if it went off?
Tom:
You could. That would be very expensive.
Evan:
Very expensive.
Hannah:
I'm thinking, 'cause you said mine.
Tom:
Mhm.
Hannah:
So is this a nuclear device that gets triggered when something is stepped on?
Tom:
Yeah, basically. Not always stepped on. There's a few other approaches, but yes. This is the horrible idea of a nuclear mine.
Evan:
That's a really bad idea.
Katelyn:
That's terrible.
Hannah:
And the cold conditions would mean that, yeah, nuclear stuff is usually warmish, but I suppose it's pretty cold in West Germany.
Evan:
I have a horrible idea.
Hannah:
Go.
Evan:
What if you just... made a nest of animals around it? And the animals kept it warm through their body heat?
Tom:
You know how it was called Blue Peacock? Do you wanna take a guess?
Evan:
Oh, oh, oh yeah. Like sitting, like birds sitting on it?
Tom:
Yes.
Evan:
So it might be animals.
Tom:
Yes, it is. You've basically got it.
Evan:
It's just—
Hannah:
Wow.
Evan:
There's just animals, like birds, that sit on top of the nuke?
Katelyn:
Does it look like an egg?
Hannah:
Is it covered in seed?
Tom:
This is a large landmine designed to stop the Red Army from advancing across West Germany. The physicists were concerned it wouldn't work if the components got too cold.
And a document from 1957 suggested, to be clear, suggested that live chickens would generate enough heat to ensure the bomb worked.
Katelyn:
Oh my god!
Evan:
That's so dumb!
Hannah:
Oh my gosh.
Evan:
I was like, "Well, I'm just gonna throw this dumb idea out there. That'll be funny."
Tom:
Yep! Yep.
Evan:
What if they peck the nuke?
Hannah:
Oh, then you've gotta look after all those chickens.
Tom:
(laughs heartily)
Evan:
"Dink-dink-dink!"
Tom:
So the nuke could be set off by being disturbed, or by getting wet, or a couple of other triggers. It was not designed to be a step-on landmine. It was designed to be a, "Oh, there is an invasion happening" mine.
Hannah:
Okay.
Tom:
Which is still bad, to be clear. That's still bad!
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Katelyn:
Yeah.
Tom:
It was only ever proposed. But yes, this was Blue Peacock, the files from which were declassified on the 1st of April, 2004, but were not an April fool.
Hannah:
Right, yeah, that was gonna be my next question.
Katelyn:
(laughs) That's wild.
Tom:
Evan, over to you for the next one, please.
Evan:
Emily walks around outside a window holding up a black placard. Meanwhile, Edward bounces on a long, wooden pole. What is this for?
Stated again.
Emily walks around outside of a window holding up a black placard. Meanwhile, Edward bounces on a long wooden pole. What is this for?
Katelyn:
Are they on a playground?
Tom:
(chuckles)
Hannah:
Yeah.
Tom:
I gave up trying to write that down as I heard it. And having said— sketched a terrible diagram of what I think is happening, and it's given me no clues whatsoever.
Hannah:
And it's given me nightmares.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Hannah:
Bouncing around on a pole.
Katelyn:
So we know that there's a window. 'Cause I'm trying to figure out the setting. Like, it could be a house. It could be an office building.
When I heard "bounces up and down on a pole", I pictured some sort of jungle gym kind of scenario. Which I guess that there's like a playhouse. It could have a window.
But I'm also trying to think like, what wooden pole would you jump up and down on?
Hannah:
Is this just like a very lateral overexplanation of something that we all know and are really familiar with?
SFX:
(Tom and Katelyn laugh)
Tom:
You know what? It almost certainly is.
Hannah:
It almost certainly—
Tom:
But it just— it will be something we all have gone, "Oh yeah, I've seen that." It's just, yeah.
Hannah:
Bouncing on a wooden pole. So not like a pogo stick or anything and...
Tom:
Oh— (cracks up)
Hannah:
—stand on a long wooden pole, 'cause that would be impossible and uncomfortable.
Tom:
Oh yes, but in my head, the pole was vertical. That's the little diagram I've got. And it occurs—
Hannah:
Yeah, that's what I was— yeah.
Tom:
Yeah, but it could be horizontal and used as a lever. Like it could be— He could be bouncing on that in order to move something else.
Katelyn:
Yeah.
Evan:
(points)
Hannah:
Or he— Oh, he is connected via a string to the pole. So he's like a puppet or something?
Evan:
(laughs)
Hannah:
No. What was—
Tom:
We got a smile from Evan and a point when it was like, okay, he's moving something.
Evan:
(chuckles)
Tom:
There's a seesaw system going on here.
Katelyn:
I wonder if we're on a construction site or something. And is he using some sort of simple mechanism to move a heavy object?
Hannah:
Why is it—
Katelyn:
Okay, we're getting nothing.
SFX:
(others snickering)
Katelyn:
So I guess maybe not.
Hannah:
But they're not doing this in a vacuum. They're doing it outside a window. So they're being observed? Or they are doing this to warn people or to... Or they're protesting or...
Katelyn:
Mhm. I'm also trying to think about the black square. A black placard.
Tom:
Mm.
Katelyn:
She's holding a black placard.
Hannah:
Does it have anything on it?
Evan:
I'll describe what a placard is. Just 'cause I think the placard is... maybe not a term used a lot for the US maybe. I'm not sure. But it's just a thick piece of black card on a stick.
Katelyn:
Okay.
Tom:
Like a protest sign if you dipped it in ink.
Evan:
Mhm, yeah. Like that.
Katelyn:
Okay.
Hannah:
And it doesn't have anything on it?
Evan:
Nope.
Katelyn:
So I know... in 2020, with all the protests, a lot of people were doing black square Instagram photos. Was this a protest and the black square was related?
Evan:
No.
Katelyn:
Okay. Well we don't— And we also don't have any date for this.
Evan:
No.
Katelyn:
Or location, like city or anything.
Evan:
Emily and Edward are working together on something.
Katelyn:
Okay, they're working together on something.
Hannah:
So she's not got anything. She's not expressing something with the sign. Is she perhaps shading Edward from something? Or is... Yeah, is it to do with shade, or does she need that there?
Evan:
There are strong lights involved.
Hannah:
Is it something to do with an eclipse or something?
Evan:
(shakes head)
Hannah:
Is the sun the light? No.
Katelyn:
So is it like a filming or photography set, and she's trying to
Evan:
Warmer.
Katelyn:
reduce light... on something?
Evan:
Colder.
Katelyn:
Outside this window? Oh, is it... There's filming going on inside of a house. They're backlit by the window. So she's trying to... block the window.
Tom:
No, they're trying to fake something.
Katelyn:
Trying to fake it being nighttime instead of daytime?
Tom:
No, 'cause she's walking about with the pole, right?
Katelyn:
Oh, she's walking back and forth.
Tom:
And the g— And something is being moved by the guy jumping, so...
Evan:
Getting closer. Getting closer.
Tom:
You said there was a window, right?
Evan:
There's a window.
Hannah:
Is it to do with rain or snow or—
Tom:
They're filming inside, and they're faking something outside.
Katelyn:
Also it might not be—
Evan:
Tom's onto something.
Katelyn:
It might not be a house window. It could also be like a car window.
Evan:
Mm, Katelyn's onto something.
Katelyn:
And the movement of a black square would suggest that the car is moving past something.
Evan:
Mhm. Keep going.
Katelyn:
I don't know what they might— it might look like you're moving past, some sort of vertical...
Tom:
Is it like a fake train window, and they're showing like... tunnels and things going past, or—
Evan:
You're very close. Emily isn't the only one walking around with a placard. There are multiple people walking around with black placards.
Tom:
(sighs)
Katelyn:
Oh?
Evan:
Edward is only bouncing slightly.
Katelyn:
On a wood pole.
Evan:
Remember.
SFX:
(guessers laughing)
Evan:
Pull it all together. You guys are— You guys have it.
Hannah:
What's the pole doing? Is the pole creating noise?
Katelyn:
Is it causing the vehicle to move? Like it's wedged under a car, and he's bouncing it to make it move?
Evan:
Katelyn's onto something.
Katelyn:
To make it look like it's driving. And then there's people outside with black placards walking around in one direction, so that it looks like the car is moving in one direction?
Evan:
Yes. I think Katelyn got it.
Katelyn:
And the multiple people there are like... I'm assuming the camera's looking at a single window, so Emily can't go back and forth. You need to have a bunch of people all going in the same direction. So it looks the car
Evan:
All walking in a circle.
Katelyn:
is going in one direction.
Evan:
Yes.
Katelyn:
So they're circling the car.
Evan:
Yes. Okay. You got it. I think I can call it. You got it. To simulate a moving vehicle shot on a film set.
Hannah:
Goodness. And what's the pole?
Evan:
The pole is to bounce the car a little bit.
Hannah:
Oh, okay.
Evan:
To make it look like it's moving.
Katelyn:
That's so interesting.
Evan:
And then, you said that earlier. You said all of the component parts.
SFX:
(Tom and Katelyn laugh)
Evan:
It just took a little bit to merge them together for the why.
So basically, you know, if you are on a lower budget set, and you can't have— you can't close the street down, downtown... and you wanna simulate a moving car shot, that's what's going on. It's the poor man's process used for TV or film production.
When you can't afford a real vehicle, such as a car or train on location, actors walk in circles, taking turns to block out the spotlights, giving the impression that the vehicle is moving past trees or bridges or et cetera.
Meanwhile, one of the grips bounces on the pole to cause the vehicle to wobble like it's driving down the road.
Tom:
Which just leaves us with the question from the start.
Thank you to Hope for sending this in.
When Hope goes on a business trip abroad, she finds it convenient and time-saving to wear stud earrings. Why?
Evan:
Ladies?
SFX:
(Evan and Katelyn laugh)
Katelyn:
I mean, is it because it's easier to sleep in studs than hoops, and you can sleep on the plane more easily? On this abroad trip?
Hannah:
Is Hope a horse? And she has to wear her earrings as like to identify her, so that she can move through security quicker?
Tom:
This is a personal anecdote from question writer Hope.
Hannah:
Aw.
Katelyn:
Oh, okay, Hope. So, she's not a horse.
Hannah:
She's not a horse.
Katelyn:
She's not a horse. She's a human person.
Evan:
So I wonder if they're more convenient than wearing no earrings. Or are they just more convenient than... wearing other earrings?
Tom:
Strictly, you'd only need one earring.
Evan:
Does the earring have an identity card or a tag or... something that she would need?
Tom:
Yeah, yeah. It's got something definitely.
Evan:
Okay, so the earring has something that she needs.
Hannah:
Is it related to her work?
Tom:
Well, it's relates to the fact she's going abroad.
Katelyn:
Okay, she's going abroad.
Evan:
Going abroad. Is it like an RFID tag, security tag or an identifier?
Tom:
Regular stud earring.
Evan:
Regular stud earring.
Katelyn:
Regular stud earring. Is it that in her passport photo, she only has... one ear pierced for some reason? And she has to take out all of her other earrings so that she matches her photo?
Tom:
No, she actually uses the earring once she gets to her destination.
Katelyn:
Okay, she's not using it as an earring. Is it to get out her SIM card?
Tom:
Yes, it is!
SFX:
(guests cheer and applaud)
Tom:
Yes! The earring post on a stud earring. It's a strong, thin piece of metal. It is the right size and shape to pop open the SIM card tray on your phone.
Well done, everyone. Thank you so much for being here. Where can people find you? What are you up to?
We will start with Hannah.
Hannah:
Yeah, you can find me writing every week for The Guardian. I have a column where I talk about wine and drinks and all things completely un-lateral related.
Tom:
And Evan and Katelyn.
Evan:
Evan and Katelyn everywhere on YouTube. But you might not know that we have a second channel where we do more crafts and cooking videos. So check that out.
Katelyn:
It's not just resin everything.
Tom:
And if you wanna know more about this show, you can do that at lateralcast.com. We are at @lateral[cast] basically everywhere, and there are full video episodes every week on Spotify.
Thank you very much to Evan and Katelyn.
Evan:
Thanks for having us.
Katelyn:
Thank you.
Evan:
I feel like my brain has been worked out.
Tom:
And Hannah Crosbie.
Hannah:
Yes, my brain has been very stretched. Thank you for having me.
Tom:
I've been Tom Scott, and that's been Lateral.
Episode Credits
| HOST | Tom Scott |
| QUESTION PRODUCER | David Bodycombe |
| EDITED BY | Julie Hassett at The Podcast Studios, Dublin |
| MUSIC | Karl-Ola Kjellholm ('Private Detective'/'Agrumes', courtesy of epidemicsound.com) |
| ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS | Kim, Kira B., Hope, Peter Scandrett, Alex Sloat |
| FORMAT | Pad 26 Limited/Labyrinth Games Ltd |
| EXECUTIVE PRODUCERS | David Bodycombe and Tom Scott |