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Episode 173: Hairdryer on a pole
30th January, 2026 • Rowan Ellis, Jarvis Johnson and Jordan Adika face questions about missing money, medical manoeuvres and mangled magazines.
Transcription by Caption+
Tom:
In 2016, Henry saved a woman's life with the Heimlich manoeuvre, even though he'd never been taught this special technique. How?
The answer to that at the end of the show. My name's Tom Scott, and this is Lateral.
Tonight, we reopen the file on a case that has baffled investigators for years: Who on earth booked these three guests together? Experts agree, it could only be the work of a criminal mastermind, one who struck without warning, leaving behind nothing but a spreadsheet labelled "Guest list – FINAL – FINAL v7 (USE THIS ONE).xls".
But now with new testimony and the best reenactments $100 could buy, we may finally uncover the truth as we interrogate our three suspect— guests. As we interrogate our three guests.
First, hoping to get her alibi straight, video essayist about sociology and social justice. Rowan Ellis, welcome back to the show.
Rowan:
Thank you for having me once more. My crime spree was not enough to stop you booking me again.
Tom:
(laughs) It is always a delight to have you back on. I know that description has changed. Have you found yourself doing wider subjects lately?
Rowan:
Yeah, it turns out there are so many fascinating ways in which the world is messed up, and I love to talk about them.
Tom:
What have you been covering lately?
Rowan:
I had a video around the ways that the alt-right in America is using food as a method of indoctrination and recruitment. And I've just recorded one about the politics of rest and laziness. So, if you're feeling not very rested, that's alright, because that's what they want you to be.
Tom:
Ooh. As someone who is currently very much not feeling rested, I appreciate that. Well, good luck on the show today.
Next, trying to control their heart rate, our second guest— So I was gonna say half of the Sad Boyz podcast, Jordan Adika. But as we record, you have also returned to YouTube.
So, please welcome YouTuber and half of the Sad Boyz podcast, Jordan Adika.
Jordan:
Yeah, I suppose I'm... two thirds myself at this point.
Tom:
(cackles)
Jordan:
I'd say... Fractions is not my strong point.
Tom:
I mean, let's be clear. After that hustle comment, you are many other things besides.
Jordan:
Yeah, no, I'm... a prolific criminal, murderer.
Tom:
(laughs)
Rowan:
Mhm, mhm.
Jordan:
I'm now realising that that was a joke.
Tom:
(laughs)
Jordan:
And so, I'm not one.
Tom:
How is the podcast going?
Jordan:
It's good, I'm— I've got my issues with my co-host.
Tom:
(laughs)
Jordan:
That's kind of a private topic that I wouldn't wanna explain too much. I should point out I'm not, you know... I have a really strong prescription. I don't know who else is on the call, but I just gotta say, I'm kind of— I love the guy unconditionally, conditionally. He's becoming extremely difficult
Tom:
(giggles)
Jordan:
in general, and has this... Oh, and softness, like, "Stop disparaging me on podcasts. Chill out." You know what I mean? It's really getting my goat. But otherwise, no, it's going really good.
Tom:
And finally, rapidly cleaning their phone history and scrubbing down some walls, the other half of the Sad Boyz podcast, and also YouTuber, Jarvis Johnson.
Jarvis:
Hello, hello.
Some friends of mine recently returned from a job at the Louvre. Sorry.
SFX:
(others laughing)
Jarvis:
This is a private call amongst friends, right?
Tom:
Of course, of course.
Rowan:
Mhm, yeah, yeah.
Jarvis:
Yeah, okay. Yeah, doing great. Content creating, reevaluating my professional relationships as of information revealed thus far on this call, but excited to be here. Excited to think laterally.
And also excited for my coffee to kick in, because it's early in the States.
Tom:
I was gonna say, from the Jarvis Johnson YouTube channel, but I just looked that up, and you are now from the Jarvis Johnson Gold YouTube channel.
Jarvis:
(laughs) Guilty, yeah. I unfortunately have not posted in two years on my main channel.
Jordan:
Second crime identified.
SFX:
(Tom and Rowan laughs)
Jarvis:
Yeah, that's... the classic YouTuber thing of... your— the stress gets too big on your main channel.
Tom:
Mhm.
Jarvis:
And so you make a second channel that then becomes as big as your main channel. And then now I've gotta create Jarvis Johnson Silver.
Tom:
Oh yeah.
Jarvis:
And I'm gonna hide in the back in the shadows, you know?
Tom:
Well, good luck to you and your Gold variant, and to the future of your podcast together.
Good luck to all three players. Let's start with exhibit— er, question one.
A magician cut out small narrow sections from a glossy magazine and stuck them all around a room. Why?
And one more time.
A magician cut out small, narrow sections from a glossy magazine and stuck them all around a room. Why?
Jordan:
They're just a bit weird, aren't they?
Tom:
(laughs)
Jordan:
(wheezes)
Tom:
Magicians in general, or this specific magician?
Jordan:
Oh yeah.
Jarvis:
Yeah, magicians are... They can do a lot of weird stuff under the guise of being a "magician".
SFX:
(Tom and Jordan laugh)
Jordan:
This also, I think, relatively low on the weirdness spectrum for a magician. Have you seen that stuff they'll do where something disappears in their hand? I mean, that's as weird as it gets.
Jarvis:
I saw them cut someone in half.
Jordan:
(giggles)
Jarvis:
I saw a guy who held his breath for a long time, and I was like, "That's not much of a magic trick, but okay." So, holographic... holographic sections. Did you say vertical sections of magazines?
Tom:
I didn't say the word "holographic" at all. I said "narrow sections from a glossy magazine".
Jordan:
Glossy.
Jarvis:
Glossy. Again, I— Coffee's not kicked in yet, but, when I...
Tom:
But that's someone with Pokémon card knowledge, immediately.
Jarvis:
I'm thinking— Listen. So, so the glossiness—
Okay, so the glossiness makes me think that information is relevant. And I wonder about... a big glossy... wall collage of magazines. Could that create some sort of mirror... mirroring effect?
Rowan:
Mm.
Jarvis:
Mm.
Rowan:
I second Jarvis's idea that the words in the question are important. I think that that's key.
Jordan:
It's gotta be.
Rowan:
And I think that that's a good point.
Jarvis:
This is the type of analysis I bring to the Lateral podcast.
Tom:
(chuckles)
Rowan:
I do— So my question is, so a glossy magazine is also just, it's both the fact it is glossy, but it's also a type of magazine, in that it's often like a women's fashion magazine, or there's like, a "glossy" is kind of the name of the magazine, so...
Jarvis:
Ohh!
Rowan:
Annoyingly, it might also not be relevant in terms of its iridescence.
Tom:
I'd say that's relevant, yes.
Rowan:
Erm?
Jordan:
Is the— I was thinking of... I didn't know that shorthand, but I do associate... the gloss texture of a page with more of a tabloid than a newspaper. Do you know what I mean?
Tom:
Yes, definitely.
Jordan:
With like, "She said what?" And then a surprise person stood next to a scandalous royal or something.
Tom:
Definitely that kind of magazine.
Jordan:
Okay, like with that film.
Rowan:
Maybe he was cutting out the images of skinny women to put on his wall to try and figure out who was gonna be his next assistant.
Jordan:
Oh, murderer.
Rowan:
In an extremely old timey... classic misogynistic magician show, in which he was figuring out who to disappear and cut in half.
Jordan:
I do like the idea that he's running an internal interview process. He's vetting
Rowan:
Mhm.
Jordan:
through a hiring service. Like who, okay, what proportions are they?
Rowan:
Yeah.
Jordan:
Where would I slice? Okay, interesting.
Jarvis:
Okay, but what if he's like a down on his luck magician, and he doesn't have the funds necessary to cut a real woman in half. So he's like, I'll cut women in half in the magazine.
Jordan:
He's misunderstood the assignment.
Rowan:
Yeah.
Tom:
Your characterisation, Jarvis, is... I would say better of the two.
Jordan:
Oh.
SFX:
(Jarvis and Rowan blurt laugh)
Rowan:
He's a down and out magician.
Tom:
Mhm.
Jarvis:
Judging by the fact that I was kidding, that doesn't bode well for me.
Tom:
There are certain skills that a magician needs to have...
Jarvis:
Hmm.
Tom:
that he didn't have yet. He's still learning.
Jordan:
Oh, without magic, you're one of the worst magicians. you're one of the worst magicians. That's so cool. Oh, is it, is this a fame— Can we ask if it's a famous one? Is that— Would they be known by name?
Tom:
It's not a famous magician.
Jordan:
Okay.
Tom:
No.
Jordan:
Like I would know any.
Tom:
This is actually a technique that is taught on a magic DVD from way back when.
Jordan:
Oh.
Rowan:
Incredible. Magic DVD. There is such a small period of history in which a magic DVD is something that exists. I'm delighted that it's made it into this podcast.
Tom:
I think they may still— I think they're mostly online downloads now. There's probably still a few DVDs out there, but yes.
Jordan:
There is that, yeah, that golden era of, like... public access to recording equipment.
Tom:
Mhm.
Jordan:
That starts in like the early VHS era, and then like most especially in the mid '90s, right? And I love the idea that... someone has spent all of their money on acquiring the video itself, and then was like, "Oh, Jesus."
Jarvis:
I gotta— Wow.
Jordan:
It's like downloading a plugin for Premiere or something, and then going like, "Wait, there's three others I also need?"
Jarvis:
And I need Premiere as well.
SFX:
(guys laughing)
Jordan:
Mirrors and a woman? What am I gonna do?
Jarvis:
Okay, so maybe he's not down on his luck, but maybe he's up and coming so much so that he's a child.
Jordan:
(snickers)
Rowan:
Mmh.
Jarvis:
You know? 'Cause children do like to do magic. It's one of the things that children do when they're trying to decide what their life is gonna be like, and sometimes, they choose magician.
Jordan:
When they're cool. When it's like a couple of cool guys specifically who were maybe looking for an affect.
Rowan:
What I'm getting from this is that you two tried to be magicians as chil— You're like, "Yeah, I don't know. It's just something that kids, cool kids do."
I don't if that's the thing you are picking up on.
Jordan:
It's like an early to mid 2000s kinda, yeah.
Rowan:
Mm.
Tom:
Something like current YouTuber podcaster may, you know, start their career as a magician.
Jordan:
Something.
Tom:
Up and coming is right. Not necessarily age, but certainly... has not developed all the skills needed yet.
Jordan:
Was it that they were trying to... predict the future of these possible scandals of these celebrities, question mark, maybe?
Tom:
No, but you have correctly identified that he's cutting out celebrities.
Jordan:
Okay.
Tom:
Pictures of celebrities. Parts of celebrities.
Jarvis:
Parts of celebrities.
Rowan:
Parts of celebrities. Terrifying.
Jordan:
(giggles) Really scary.
Tom:
Early on, Jarvis, you did ask, horizontal or vertical? These are horizontal strips.
Jarvis:
So I'm imagining, and I don't know why a magician would be doing this, but I'm imagining you could be creating kind of a Frankenstein's, no, not a Frankenstein's monster. More like if you were to... collate a bunch of vertical strips, slices of a celebrity, you could—
Tom:
Horizontal strips.
Jarvis:
Horizontal strips of a celebrity. You could create something that looks... looks like an average of a... celebrity. Like someone that looks famous, but you don't—
Tom:
What might that help you do?
Jordan:
Cold reading? Is it to give them an advantage on what the average traits are that you would use, or something like that?
Tom:
No, not in this case. It doesn't necessarily need to be a magician here. I guess a stand-up comic could do this as well.
Rowan:
Oh, is it just like being nervous about doing something in front of people, so he's got all the eyes and like a crowd?
Tom:
Yes!
Rowan:
That he puts on a wall?
Jarvis:
Ahhh.
Tom:
Yes.
Rowan:
'Cause he's too scawwed?
Jordan:
That's so much scarier than a crowd.
SFX:
(guys laughing)
Rowan:
So true!
Jordan:
This would be scarier than a crowd!
Jarvis:
Eldritch horror to look at.
Tom:
You haven't quite got it. It's not Eldritch horror. You've nearly got there. You're right that it's about not being shy, about performance skills, everything like that.
Rowan:
Is it like eye contact specifically?
Tom:
Yes.
Rowan:
Cutting out the eyes?
Tom:
Yes, spot on. This is a tip for magicians to improve eye contact when performing. So this is a shy magician, if you have problems maintaining eye contact, you cut out the eyes, which you would find in celebrity magazines or things like that.
Rowan:
Terrifying.
Tom:
And you pin them up. 'Cause then you can't look at anything else. You can't go, "Oh, I'm close enough. I'm looking at their chin. I'm looking at—" You've got to actually match the eyes.
Jordan:
Is there any chance that this is just a flimsy defence on the part of a real serial killer?
SFX:
(Tom and Rowan laugh)
Jarvis:
Yeah.
Jordan:
Who bought, you know, a magic starter set with the little black-and-white wand "Your Honour, Your Honour. It's for magic. The bones in my fridge are for the— for a trick or something."
Tom:
That's a different kind of magic.
Jordan:
Yeah, it— (laughs) very talented.
Tom:
Jordan, it is over to you for the next question, please.
Jordan:
This question has been sent in by Mac.
When composer Dean Hurley showed David Lynch a representation of a computer file, he replied, "It's cosmic! It's cosmic!" What caused this reaction?
When composer Dean Hurley showed David Lynch a representation of a computer file, he replied, "It's cosmic! It's cosmic!" (imitates cigarette puff) What caused this reaction?
Tom:
(laughs heartily)
I really appreciate the character work. That was lovely.
Jarvis:
Okay, so it's a composer... is showing... So a composer is a composer of music. Theoretically they're working together on some sort of film project, and it's David Lynch.
We're in the early days of computers being integrated into maybe the workflow of film.
Jordan:
Mm.
Jarvis:
And production. And this composer is showing David Lynch a representation... of— Is that the word? A representation of a computer file?
Jordan:
He— Yes. A representation of a mu— of a computer file... implying music?
Jarvis:
Yeah, what could it— What could cause him to represent something as, it's co— or say that it's cosmic, other than like, faking the moon landing?
Rowan:
(snickers)
Tom:
Okay. I am thinking about what you would see.
I'm assuming this is 80s, 90s, something like that. You would have file extensions, like .doc files for Microsoft Word and .ppt for PowerPoint, and music and audio would be a—
Jarvis:
MIDI.
Tom:
I was thinking .wav, wave file.
Jarvis:
Wave!
Tom:
The cosmic wave thing.
Jarvis:
Oh, interesting.
Jordan:
Yeah, it was a MIDI file.
Tom:
Oh, okay.
Jarvis:
It, a representation of MIDI... could, is like... Isn't it like little dashes?
Tom:
Oh, it depends which program you're using. It could look like an old player piano thing, or it could be a full music score.
Rowan:
I truly don't know what you're talking about.
Tom:
(laughs heartily)
Rowan:
I don't know anything about files or music. So I have really nothing to give here.
Tom:
Yeah, you've got two former computer nerds here, haven't you?
Jarvis:
Yeah.
Rowan:
I'm like, wow. Space orbits, planets, stars, cosmic. That's what I've— That's what I give to you today.
Jarvis:
And I think that those are valuable contributions.
Jordan:
I think it's definitely worth, Rowan... any familiarity you might have with David Lynch's... It's tied to a specific project of his. It's not a general...
Rowan:
Is it Twin Peaks?
Jordan:
I can tell you that it is related to Twin Peaks.
Tom:
Oh, this is unhelpful because I've not seen Twin Peaks.
Rowan:
Mm, neither have I.
Jarvis:
So, okay. But I haven't seen Twin Peaks, but I know things about it.
Jordan:
Mm, and I will say, you have also mentioned... you've de— the three of you have definitely identified the two factors. Twin Peaks being the thing it's related to, and the music file that it is tied to.
Jarvis:
So, so Twin Peaks is like... I think about how it inspired Lost. I think of Twin Peaks as a very mystery driven, like eerie type of vibe. And so hearing 'cosmic' as a description of something, that's what he's going for, maybe, in terms of... the environment, crafting the soundscape, maybe, but...
Jordan:
I think I'll reference, you guys also referenced the... when you're saying dots, that's the piano role typically?
Tom:
Yeah.
Jordan:
So it is the... Jarvis's mention of the format. It is that format. It is in the piano roll format.
Jarvis:
Ah. Okay, so is it— Okay, here's a thought. They made some eerie music for Twin Peaks, that the MIDI looks like a shape of a face or something.
Jordan:
You are really in the right area.
Jarvis:
(laughs)
Rowan:
Mm.
Jarvis:
I... feel like a music track that when represented as MIDI, looks like a monster or looks like the monster from Twin Peaks.
Jordan:
You are so close, and I'll tell all of you guys, the fact that you've not seen Twin Peaks, it does not matter.
Rowan:
Okay.
Jarvis:
Oh, okay.
Tom:
Are there just twin peaks? It's twin peaks.
Jarvis:
Two twin peaks.
Tom:
It's the mountains.
Jordan:
It is.
Rowan:
Okay.
Jarvis:
Yeah, yeah. It's the theme song, represented as a MIDI, is two peaks because a scale goes up and down.
Jordan:
It's so funny. Because yes, that's exactly correct.
Jarvis:
Yes.
SFX:
(Tom and Jordan laugh)
Jordan:
I think, so I think one thing is you were being too generous by thinking it was an Easter egg. And instead it was just the fact that it's a synth, that it's arpeggiating up and down.
Jarvis:
Yeah, it's like—
Tom:
(laughs)
Jordan:
David Lynch was like, "Oh my god! The computer's seen my TV show."
Tom:
(laughs heartily)
Jarvis:
That's really funny. 'Cause it is just up and down like a, yeah, a scale goes, and then he's going, "Whoa!" Like two, it's like a... it's like the... More like a black mirror, this cell phone actually.
Jordan:
Oh, these days. Anti-social media.
Rowan:
The fact that it was "That's cosmic", in my head, I was like, when you were talking about the MIDI stuff, I was like, oh, maybe it's like literally constellations, based on the night sky and whatever. It's just two...
Tom:
It's just two peaks.
Rowan:
It's just two incredible cosmic points.
Jordan:
It's like ancient cave drawings.
SFX:
(Tom and Jordan laugh)
Jordan:
And David Lynch was freaking out.
Rowan:
Davey.
Jordan:
Yeah. So David Lynch co-created the surrealist TV drama series Twin Peaks. If you take the theme of the show, Laura Palmer's theme, and take that into MIDI file format, you get on the piano roll, a— those two spikes, and then all of the foundation chords mostly line up.
I mean, looking at it now, it does have some depth to it because so much of the riffing is higher and lower on the scale. So it is creating not just this line with two little spikes on it, but it is line, spike, line, spike, line, and then beneath that, a series of unaligned spikes that make it look, in my opinion, a little like grass or like boulders all darting the landscape.
Jarvis:
That's fun.
Jordan:
It's cosmic, to be honest.
SFX:
(Tom and Rowan laugh)
Jarvis:
Wow. Well said.
Jordan:
This was, however, completely accidental, and when it was pointed out to the theme's composer, Angelo Badalamenti, he said, "Whoa, whoa!" (laughs) Imagine this. "Whoa, this is scary, but very cool."
SFX:
(Tom and Jordan laugh)
Jordan:
Which is the normal person way of saying it's cosmic.
Tom:
Thank you to Corey Dabrowski for the next question.
In 2006, how did American Marines use a hair dryer mounted on a long pole to protect themselves from slugs?
I'll say that one more time.
In 2006, how did American Marines use a hair dryer mounted on a long pole to protect themselves from slugs?
Jarvis:
Hair dryer mounted on a long pole?
Rowan:
I feel like that is important. I also would love to question why they needed protecting from slugs. What were these slugs doing that was so dangerous to the Marines? Was it, they were eating their lettuce? The supplies?
Jordan:
(laughs over words)
Rowan:
Like space slugs?
Jarvis:
Were they eroding some sort of metal or equipment? 'Cause my thought about the hair dryer is that... I don't know enough about slugs, but if they're attracted to moisture or humidity or something, then I can imagine a world where they're trying to create a environment that, kind of like moths to a flame, they would attract the slugs over here, and not to the area that the slugs are ravaging, let's say.
Tom:
That's, I think, very accurate in all but one very major detail. But I would certainly go with moths to a flame. I would certainly go with trying to attract them to an area.
Rowan:
Moths to a flame, slugs to a hair dryer, as the saying goes.
Jordan:
(snickers)
Tom:
Yeah!
Jarvis:
As the saying goes.
Jordan:
Oh, how could I have— I always forget The Grapes of Wrath or whatever. (cracks up)
Jarvis:
Right.
Jordan:
Is it... Slugs, I don't know. Maybe I'm generalising. And that's just, it's, you know... (pfft) I'm not that politically correct. But am I generalising when I say that leeches live within the subgenre of a slug?
Tom:
(laughs)
Jordan:
I feel like they're kinda like the evil slug, you know what I mean?
Rowan:
Mm. Like a wasp is an evil bee. Yes.
Jordan:
Yeah, wasp is an evil bee.
Tom:
(laughs)
Rowan:
That's science, yeah.
Jarvis:
That's cosmic.
SFX:
(others laughing)
Jordan:
That's cosmic, right? Yet the killer bee is like an evil wasp.
Rowan:
Mm, mm.
Jordan:
The bumblebee, the hero of the format.
Jarvis:
Yeah, I think the word 'killer' is doing a lot of heavy lifting.
Jordan:
Yeah, that's...
Rowan:
Yeah, that makes sense. Could it be, I mean, I feel like slugs in, within foliage, like if the hair dryer is blowing something, like blowing leaves away to uncover them. So they're like, "No, I'm so delicate." And then they slug away.
Jordan:
(snickers) They do slug a lot.
Rowan:
Love to slug, those slugs.
Jordan:
Is it a case of— I suppose it's, yeah. This kinda improvised device implies that it was a problem, identified when deployed, not something that they were prepared for.
Jarvis:
Right.
Jordan:
Or doing it at base. So maybe...
Tom:
Yes.
Jarvis:
They're on the open seas in my mind.
Jordan:
Yes. And then they were like, "Oh geez!"
Rowan:
The Marines?
Jarvis:
Oh.
Jordan:
Oh, I'm thinking of the Navy SEALs.
Tom:
You're thinking of the Navy SEALs.
Jarvis:
Yeah, what do the Marines do?
Tom:
Well, what did the Marines do in 2006?
Jarvis:
The war on terror.
Tom:
Yes. This was in Iraq.
Jarvis:
The war on terror.
Tom:
I hadn't realised you were all picturing the Navy here. To be clear, you are about as far as it's possible to get away from that in terms of—
Jordan:
Marine, I think, got in my brain.
Jarvis:
No, that's on my mind, because the word 'marine', unfortunately. I was thinking of marine biology.
Tom:
Yeah.
Jordan:
Okay. So, we've identified that they were... Can we confirm that... was there killing? Did they kill the slugs?
Tom:
Now, I feel like there's one major word in this question you haven't really drilled down into yet.
Rowan:
Oh?
Tom:
Slugs.
Rowan:
Oh, is it slugs from a gun, but like a bullet, slugs?
Jarvis:
Yeah, from a gun.
Jordan:
A shotgun.
Tom:
Yes.
Jarvis:
Yeah.
Tom:
Yes.
Rowan:
Wow.
Tom:
There is more than one use for the word 'slug'.
Rowan:
But the whimsy! The whimsy, Tom!
Tom:
(laughs)
Rowan:
You've ruined the whimsy.
Tom:
Yes, unfortunately, this is not a particularly whimsical question.
Rowan:
Potentially the hair dryer is moving something. So it looks like something is... like people are somewhere that they aren't. There's kind of like, these moving sheets or something, or things that make shadows, so that the slugs are going towards the thing that is being moved by the hair dryer.
Tom:
Yes, absolutely.
Jarvis:
It's to affect the heat signature on...
Jordan:
Ohhh.
Tom:
(nods) Yes.
Jarvis:
On systems where they're... They basically wanna create a false... pretend that they're somewhere they're not.
Jordan:
For the thermal vision on a sniper or something.
Jarvis:
For the thermal vision or whatever, yeah.
Tom:
Yeah. I think I can give you that. When you said moths to a flame, Jarvis, and slugs to a hair dryer.
Jarvis:
Mm.
Tom:
...Yes. We're not talking thermal vision here, or cameras or snipers. What was one of the other major things that US troops had to deal with?
Jarvis:
Oh, like landmines and stuff, or...
Tom:
Exactly right, IEDs.
Jordan:
Oh, right!
Tom:
These were actually called EFPs, explosively formed penetrators, which are roadside bombs that project a slug of molten copper and which react to the heat from vehicles.
Jarvis:
Wow.
Jordan:
The heat. I was gonna say, is, I was wondering if the hair dryer element wasn't even related. It was just that hair dryers were readily available, moreso than— (cracks up)
Tom:
Yes! Eventually, there was a military spec thing designed for this. But until the Rhino Passive Infrared Defeat System came along...
Jordan:
It's okay.
Tom:
They— that was the eventual thing. A convoy would put a long pole with... maybe the heating element from a toaster or maybe a hair dryer or something on the end, and whatever was aiming at them would fire before they got there.
Jordan:
What was the name of the device? The eventual military device?
Tom:
The Rhino Passive Infrared Defeat System.
Jordan:
The Rhi-puh-di-duh?
Tom:
It could have a better acronym.
Jarvis:
Rhino Passive Infrared Defeat System, wow. The Rhu-pi-dih.
Tom:
Rowan, whenever you're ready, your question please.
Rowan:
So, this question was sent in by Kate.
In the early 1700s, horticulturalists at the Royal Gardens in Paris carefully tended strawberry plants reproduced from a Chilean specimen famous for its giant fruit. Yet despite perfect care, none of them produced berries. Why?
In the early 1700s, horticulturalists at the Royal Gardens in Paris carefully tendered strawberry plants reproduced from a Chilean specimen famous for its giant fruit. Yet despite perfect care, none of them produced berries. Why?
Jordan:
Hmm, I'll be the first to admit. My horticulturalism is a little wonky these days. You know, just 'cause social media and stuff. I haven't paid attention in my classes.
Tom:
(chuckles)
Jordan:
Is it possible that... (cracks up) this special Chilean plant just doesn't make berries? It grows fruit... upside down or something?
Tom:
Oh, this can't be one of those technical questions, right?
"It's a strawberry plant, but strawberries are not technically berries." That doesn't feel like a lateral question to me.
Jarvis:
I'm thinking, and I think the straight ahead thing... answer is that the climates are different, and so it just doesn't work, right? And so it can't be something like that. There has to be some lateral way of thinking about this.
Rowan:
Oh my god, title of the movie.
Jordan:
(imitates bass drop) Lateral, this summer.
Jarvis:
And it's the 1700s, so...
Jordan:
Yeah, that's true. Everyone was pretty bad at stuff in the 1700s.
Tom:
Okay, but yeah, you're right. They would've been bad at stuff.
And I don't know where strawberries... are originally from, like which part of the world. I don't know if they're originally European fruit or originally South American. Maybe they would— Maybe they just didn't understand how this thing worked.
Jordan:
Yeah, I'm wondering if they legitimately... (giggles) they got the wrong plant. Like people were just like, "We saw some strawberries, and so we got some of the seeds. What the hell is going on here?" And it was like...
Jarvis:
Yeah.
Jordan:
It was like a potato foundation.
Jarvis:
Yeah, they didn't know that the seeds on the strawberry were like the little parts on the outside of the strawberry, and they thought the seeds were something else. But the perfect care aspect is throwing me.
Jordan:
Yeah.
Rowan:
So I can confirm from what you were just saying, that... it's not that this wasn't a strawberry plant, but this species of strawberry plant did behave differently from European strawberry varieties.
Jarvis:
Ahhh.
Tom:
It keeps going, "Feed me, Seymour!"
SFX:
(Jordan and Jarvis snicker)
Jordan:
It sounds like its distinctive trait is that it doesn't grow.
SFX:
(group giggling)
Rowan:
That's it.
Tom:
For a plant, not great, evolutionary.
Jarvis:
Terrible.
Tom:
But it does troll 1700 horticulturalists in Paris.
Jordan:
(laughs) Yeah, it was a prank.
Jarvis:
I'm wondering, is it a situation where there's like a plant that, it looks like a strawberry? But it's actually like not a strawberry? And so they were caring for it, as if it was a plant that it wasn't?
Rowan:
Nope, these were strawberries.
Jarvis:
Okay.
Rowan:
And as it— as— kinda it says in the question, it— this was also a strawberry plant that was famous for having really good fruit. It definitely did produce fruit.
Jordan:
Was there any nefarious things at play? Was there any— there was no scammers or
Rowan:
(shakes head)
Jordan:
con artists and— Okay.
Tom:
This is not some kind of fruit-based heist.
Jordan:
Yeah, I dunno what it says about me that that's my instinct.
Tom:
This does seem to be the true crime episode, to be fair.
Jordan:
Yeah, and I love to lie.
Tom:
(laughs)
Jarvis:
Yeah, it's not a story of sabotage.
Jordan:
(giggles) Yeah. Oh, man.
Tom:
Okay. They were bad at it. They were bad at something. They were caring for it perfectly, but they didn't understand... something that was going on with this plant. Is that fair to say?
Rowan:
Yes. There was a key piece of botanical knowledge that was missing.
Jordan:
Is it an ach— Was it an achievable goal? Was it something that they could have done? Anything that could have been different, or was this like a foundational problem? They never could have done it?
Rowan:
So they did achieve it. These plants, these type of strawberries did eventually grow in Paris, but not until a while later. And not with those particular specimens, propagated offshoots that they had of the original plant.
Jarvis:
I'm wondering if the plant was dead or... something of that? Like it's the right species, but it's not— it's matured past being able to bear fruit or something?
Tom:
It only bears fruit once. It's one of those plants that isn't annual. It— You get some strawberries and then you're done.
Rowan:
Neither of you are correct, but you are getting to a point where... if they'd have just picked from a different plant... everything would've been fine. But what was the reason why one of these plants would, and one of these plants wouldn't bear fruit?
Jordan:
It's just probably some kind of dastardly French foolishness.
Tom:
(laughs breathily)
Jarvis:
I'm like... I'm wondering—
Tom:
Sorry, that absolutely— The phrasing just got me, sorry.
Jordan:
You know what they're like.
Jarvis:
Yeah, classic... Okay.
Jordan:
(snickers)
Jarvis:
I guess there could be some sort of genetic defect in the plant that they chose. And I'm also imagining a world where there's two plants that work together in some sort of ecosystem.
Jordan:
Ohhh.
Jarvis:
And they chose the raw— they chose the protector plant rather than the fruit bearing plant.
Jordan:
They chose the gardener, but not the actual fruit. It doesn't— does not— yeah. They chose the butcher, not the chef or whatever.
Tom:
Most plants... are both male and female. They have both parts.
Jarvis:
Mm.
Rowan:
Mhm.
Tom:
Is this a species... that either, it only has one part, and they only brought the male or the female? Or it just required some pollinating insect that isn't in France? I've just thrown two ideas out there.
Rowan:
Tom...
Jarvis:
I like that.
Rowan:
Your first answer was entirely correct. They had managed to import all female plants.
Tom:
All female!
Jarvis:
Ah.
Rowan:
No males.
Jordan:
Oh, that explains it.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Jordan:
'Course they didn't wanna work, huh?
Tom:
(blurts laugh) Oh god!
Jordan:
What kind of show is this?
Jarvis:
(laughs flatly)
Jordan:
I've decided to pivot into being like a kinda alt-right guy. (laughs)
Rowan:
Love podcasts.
SFX:
(Tom and Jordan laugh)
Rowan:
Yeah, so... Amédée-François Frézier – or however that is actually pronounced – brought back five strawberry plants from Chile in 1714.
However, no one, including the royal gardeners in Paris, could grow berries from the specimens or their propagated offshoots because at the time, it wasn't known that many strawberry species outside of the European varieties, were either male or female.
And so, not knowing any better, they just took five female plants, because they were the ones who seemed to be bearing fruit, and they thought, "Oh, look at these amazing fruits that are here."
Jordan:
Is that just like an advancement in the tech that nobody really was aware of at that— the 1700s? Or was this just a kind of regional slip up?
Tom:
I mean, presumably at some point, someone brought a male plant over.
Jordan:
And they're like, "What the hell?" (cracks up)
Jarvis:
Finally a man to fix this problem!
Tom:
Oh!
Jordan:
(laughs)
Jarvis:
It's an alt-right podcast, guys, so, just kidding.
Rowan:
So in fact, it wasn't the work of a man, but a 17-year-old boy who in 1764 used a European plant as an alternative pollinator, and allegedly King Louis XV was so impressed with the size of the resulting berries that he ordered an illustrator to draw them. And I have on my PDF a lovely illustration, and those strawberries are extremely chonky.
Tom:
(chuckles)
Rowan:
They are absolutely enormous.
Jordan:
What happened? Where's the... Are these Parisians hiding the goods? Why don't we have this?
Tom:
(laughs)
Rowan:
I fear they might be.
Tom:
Thank you to Tony Kovačić for this next question.
In 2023, a Croatian game show changed its jackpot prize. Even though a winner would earn more than before, viewers still complained. Why?
And one more time.
In 2023, a Croatian game show changed its jackpot prize. Even though a winner would earn more than before, viewers still complained. Why?
Jarvis:
My first thought is that... there was some sort of stunt associated or some sort of novelty associated with the former prize, that they changed it to something stale like cash.
Jordan:
Oh, like it's the... I guess this is an overly British reference, but like the Countdown teacup or whatever. The Countdown teapot, something that's like, has cultural cachet for the— Maybe the show's been around for 50 years, and it's like, "Oh my god, where's the Croatian teapot?" or whatever. (laughs)
Rowan:
Mm.
Jordan:
Is this a popular ga— I mean, I guess, I dunno if you know, but is this like a... Is it like a institution? This game show, this is a big deal?
Tom:
Oh, absolutely.
Jordan:
Okay,
Jarvis:
Interesting.
Rowan:
I was going in a similar direction in my head, but I— very much more lowbrow that I was like, it was originally 69,000.
Tom:
(laughs)
Jarvis:
Yeah.
Rowan:
Then it was like, "Oh, let's go to 100." And everyone's like, "No, but it was so funny before!" But the teapot thing makes more sense.
Jarvis:
I was thinking of, it's like Who Wants to Be a Millionaire?, but now it's like... 10 million or 1.2 million. And so it doesn't line up with the expectation of the show.
Jordan:
Oh, yeah. People are being pedantic about it.
Tom:
Jarvis, you have the correct game show.
Jordan:
Ooh, what?
Jarvis:
Oh?
Rowan:
Who Wants to Be a Millionaire?
Tom:
Who Wants to Be a Millionaire?, yes. And Rowan, what you were saying, that was about right as well. You're getting close.
Jordan:
Did they change the currency and raise the number or something?
Tom:
Yeah, think about where Croatia is. What might have happened in 2023?
Rowan:
Did it— So it'd be using euros or using a different—
Tom:
Yes. Yep. They switched from the Croatian kuna to the euro. You've basically got it. And you said the prize went up, Jordan. That's not quite right.
Jarvis:
Oh, okay. So, okay. So due to the conversion rate, the— it's like... the euro, it's gonna be like 800,000 euro or something like that.
Tom:
Yes. Yeah.
Jarvis:
Yeah, okay, yeah.
Jordan:
Yeah, okay.
Rowan:
And it's not— yeah. An 800,000 euro-aire is not as catchy.
Tom:
It's actually much less than that. A million Croatian kuna worked out to about 132,000 euro.
Jarvis:
Oh.
Tom:
So even though they put the prize up to 150,000 euro, it is technically worth more money... but people were complaining because it is not Who Wants to Be a Millionaire?.
Jordan:
That's so funny. It's "Hey, who wants some money?" (laughs)
Tom:
Right? (laughs)
Rowan:
I would've loved to have been in the meetings of that— the production of that show, when they realised, they're like, "Our whole thing is to make people millionaires. We don't have the budget to give them 10 times the amount of money. We're gonna have to make a decision."
Jordan:
Just keep using the old cur— I mean, you pay them in euros, but just keep saying it's the old one. I mean, what, you know.
Jarvis:
It's like, Millionaire's one of those things where they've made the show in so many different markets that I'm sure they run up against this issue often.
Tom:
All the time.
Jarvis:
Yeah. (chuckles)
Tom:
Jarvis, whenever you're ready, your question please.
Jarvis:
When staying in an Airbnb, why did Flacko put a bag of frozen vegetables halfway up a wall?
Jordan:
That's the most lateral question I've ever heard in my entire life.
SFX:
(Tom and Jordan chuckle)
Jarvis:
When staying in an Airbnb, why did Flacco put a bag of frozen vegetables halfway up a wall?
Jordan:
Me when I'm the Airbnb owner.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Jordan:
Why did you do that?
Rowan:
Why, why?
Jarvis:
He's so quirky.
Jordan:
Halfway up a wall.
SFX:
(Jordan and Tom giggle)
Rowan:
Truly, so many elements of this question.
Tom:
(cackles softly)
Rowan:
Frozen vegetables, a wall, Airbnb. Put it. Didn't stick it. Didn't nail it.
Tom:
Mhm.
Rowan:
Put it.
Jarvis:
Mhm.
Jordan:
Is there a... there is an understandable... scepticism and anxiety some people have about being monitored in Airbnbs. It's possibly tied to that.
Tom:
Yeah. But why frozen vegetables? The only Flaco I know is the owl that escaped from the Central Park Zoo in New York.
Jarvis:
I will say that this is not a Flacko that you'll know.
Tom:
Okay.
Rowan:
No!
Jordan:
Not a bird. Okay.
Tom:
That's a shame.
Rowan:
Why did the owl put the frozen vegetables on the Airbnb? That would've been— The whimsy! You just destroyed all the whimsy! Every single question!
Jordan:
That's like, it's part of its nesting process is whipping down Iceland and grabbing a couple of... couple bags of frozen peas.
Tom:
That owl was a tourist attraction for a while. Just kept flying about.
Jordan:
Did it keep going? Did they capture it or something?
Tom:
Erm, turns out there's a reason that zoo animals shouldn't be released into the wild. They tend to get ill from rat poison and things like that, so.
Jordan:
Aw, come on.
Tom:
Not great.
Jordan:
It's not fair.
Jarvis:
Same.
Rowan:
I mean, frozen—
SFX:
(group laughs heartily)
Jordan:
You don't thrive.
Jarvis:
Yeah, I— Me and rat poison do not mix.
Rowan:
Mm, not good together. I mean, frozen vegetables are used... for like, wounds and for things like that. But it wouldn't be, unless it was the most trick of a question. It's like "It was technically halfway up a wall, where a person's wound was." I'm like, that's—
Jarvis:
(laughs)
Tom:
Halfway up Mrs. Wall, his wife.
SFX:
(Jordan and Rowan laugh)
Jordan:
Airbnb is an element that I feel like it's so essential—
Jarvis:
What is— Well, Jordan, what is halfway up a wall in an Airbnb?
Jordan:
A TV?
Jarvis:
That's a thing. That's an— That's a thing that's...
Jordan:
The air? Like... Not like 'Air'bnb. The vent, the AC.
Tom:
It's the thermostat. They put it on the thermostat.
Jordan:
Oh!
Jarvis:
They did put it on the thermostat.
Rowan:
So it just kept making the temperature go higher, within the apar— 'cause it thinks it's still really cold. So it's trying to reach a certain temperature?
Tom:
Because the landlord won't let you change the thermostat.
Jordan:
That's...
Jarvis:
Yes, that's exactly correct.
Jordan:
That's awesome! That's such a sly method.
Jarvis:
So why wouldn't they be able to just change the thermostat?
Jordan:
I mean, the Airbnb classic is, you know, the service of the website is, do you want somehow a landlord that's worse than normal?
Tom:
(laughs)
Jarvis:
Mhm, mhm.
Jordan:
I, you know, plenty of— I've had plenty of landlords who are very fussy in a passive aggressive sense about temperature stuff because the tenant agreement says, you know, you don't have to die in the cold. But they will look at the bill and be like, "I don't know, maybe you could do some damage."
So it's... Did— Can you lock them? Is that what they're doing? They're just like... it's available to touch, but it's just locked? And there's— they have no ability to—
Tom:
I mean, the control panel can be separate from the thermostat.
Jordan:
Yeah.
Tom:
So if the landlord has just removed the controls, whether that's physical or digital or—
Jarvis:
Imagine even simpler though. An even more crude solution.
Rowan:
They've just super glued the...
Jarvis:
Okay, slightly less crude, but... you're on the right track.
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Jordan:
Tape?
Jarvis:
There is a product, but it— but in terms of the elegance of the solution, it's not as elegant as like separating the controls or something like that.
Tom:
They've padlocked it. They've somehow locked out the thermostat.
Rowan:
Mm.
Jarvis:
Yeah.
Rowan:
Have they just drilled a cage over it?
Jarvis:
Yeah, there's a box. They put a little box over it.
Jordan:
(giggles) Just... That's such a funny—
Jarvis:
It's like a clear plastic lockbox.
Rowan:
Oh, that's worse that it's clear plastic. So it's like, you can see, you can see, but you can't touch.
Jarvis:
You can see it, yeah.
Jordan:
It's worse than tanking the cost of the AC. This is— It's such an embarrassing thing to have on your reviews of your Airbnb versus just, what, paying a couple extra dozen bucks for the day that they're staying there or something?
Rowan:
I would love just the Airbnb— the reviews are just all pictures of people with frozen peas up against a thermostat. Like, this is the experience!
Jarvis:
The funny thing is this type of security mechanism works exactly one time and then it goes viral, and then everyone gets the solution to how to bypass your system.
So I'll explain who Flacko is. Instagram user Flacko Shahin was staying at an Airbnb in Wisconsin. He was annoyed to find that the Airbnb host had put the thermostat inside a locked Perspex box. Flacko put a bag of frozen baby okra on top of the box to cool down the air inside. Thinking the room was colder than it actually was, the thermostat turned on the heating once more.
Jordan:
Oh, respect. Oh!
Rowan:
Mhm.
Jordan:
That's, honestly, that is, that's like, it's like medieval science approach.
Tom:
(laughs)
Jordan:
It's getting rid of like the ill humours just by putting up a...
Jarvis:
It is lateral thinking. I think it's a very clever solution.
Tom:
Which means that all that's left is the question I asked the audience at the very start of the show.
Thank you to Forest Davis for sending this in.
In 2016, Henry saved a woman's life with the Heimlich manoeuvre, even though he had never been taught this special technique. How?
Any guesses from the panel before I give the audience the answer?
Rowan:
He was trying to do something else. He was try— They were doing quite sexually suggestive dancing on the dance floor.
SFX:
(guys crack up)
Rowan:
She was choking. He didn't realise and sort of accidentally saved her life.
Jordan:
Mm.
Jarvis:
Ah, mm. What, he was having like a heart attack, and there was some sort of heart arrhythmia that they managed to fix...
Jordan:
(snickers)
Jarvis:
with a botched Heimlich maneuver.
Jordan:
He fell forward because of his heart arrhythmia. Grabbed them, they stopped choking. The impact against his chest cured his problem.
Rowan:
Mm.
Jordan:
And then the— both— the two of them were able to step away from an act of God.
Tom:
It wasn't amateur or an accident. He executed this like a professional.
Jordan:
Is it his— He'd come up— This is old Heimy himself.
Tom:
Yes, it is, Jordan!
Jordan:
Okay.
Tom:
You're spot on. This was Henry Heimlich.
Rowan:
(wheezes)
Jordan:
But he—
Jarvis:
Wow.
Jordan:
Had this been established yet, or he was like, "I could do this."
Tom:
He'd never been taught it because he came up with it.
Rowan:
Because he invented it.
Jordan:
The genius.
Tom:
Yeah. He came up with the technique in 1974.
In 2016, 87-year-old Patty Gill Ris was dining in a steakhouse in Ohio. As she began to choke, Dr. Heimlich stood up from another table, pushed on her rib cage three times to dislodge it, and used the Heimlich manoeuvre at the age of 96.
Jordan:
He's gotta be pretty excited, huh?
Rowan:
An icon, a legend.
Jordan:
(wheezes) He's gotta be rubbing his little hands together.
Jarvis:
That's like on the airplane, when they're like, "Is there a doctor on board?" And he goes, "I'm a doctor!"
SFX:
(Tom and Jordan laugh)
Tom:
Thank you very much to all of our players. Congratulations on running the true crime gauntlet today. Where can people find you? What's going on in your lives?
We'll start with Jarvis.
Jarvis:
You can find me if we're eating dinner at the same restaurant, and you start choking, I will attempt the Heimlich maneuver, but I have not been taught it, and I won't be able to help very much.
I'm at @Jarvis on the social media.
Tom:
(cackles)
Jordan:
(snickers)
Tom:
Jordan.
Jordan:
You can find me choking, and then my friend runs over and saves me at the restaurant, and it kind of ruins the whole vibe of the Cheesecake Factory.
Tom:
You should probably plug the podcast. I'm just gonna throw that one in.
Jordan:
Oh yeah, that's true.
Jarvis:
Hey, you started with that though. They know!
Jordan:
I don't know. Yeah, we have a podcast called Sad Boyz with a Z at the end. Not an S. Don't mess it up. You find that on YouTube, and we also—
Jarvis:
You can listen to an episode with Tom Scott where he tells us way too much about theme parks.
Tom:
That's true. That happens a lot if people invite me on podcasts.
Jordan:
That's a great ep.
Tom:
And Rowan.
Rowan:
You can find me staring directly into the eyes of a magician. Anywhere where you can find good magicians. And you can find me online if you just search Rowan Ellis.
I also have a podcast. It's called the Queer Movie Podcast. And if you like queer movies, check it out.
Tom:
And if you wanna know more about this show, you can do that at lateralcast.com where you can also send in your own ideas for questions. We are at @lateralcast basically everywhere, and there are free video episodes every week on Spotify.
Thank you very much to Rowan Ellis.
Rowan:
Thank you!
Tom:
Jordan Adika!
Jordan:
Ta-ra!
Tom:
Jarvis Johnson!
Jarvis:
Not a doctor.
Tom:
(cracks up) My name's Tom Scott, I'm not a doctor, and that's been Lateral.
Episode Credits
| HOST | Tom Scott |
| QUESTION PRODUCER | David Bodycombe |
| EDITED BY | Julie Hassett at The Podcast Studios, Dublin |
| MUSIC | Karl-Ola Kjellholm ('Private Detective'/'Agrumes', courtesy of epidemicsound.com) |
| ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS | Kate, Mac, Forest Davis, Corey Dabrowski, Toni Kovačić |
| FORMAT | Pad 26 Limited/Labyrinth Games Ltd |
| EXECUTIVE PRODUCERS | David Bodycombe and Tom Scott |