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Episode 178: The woodland mirror
6th March, 2026 • Charlotte Yeung, Annie Rauwerda and Alexis Dahl face questions about serial sequences, picture purchases and washed-out words.
Transcription by Caption+
Tom:
In what way is 100 the first, and 38 the last?
The answer to that at the end of the show. My name's Tom Scott, and this is Lateral.
Lateral is the podcast that fits perfectly into your daily routine, whether you're commuting, cooking, or in the case of one of our long-term listeners, working out. She told us she times her exercise sessions to the exact length of the show.
So today, in her honour, we've prepared a two-hour special! Good luck out there, Katie. Your quads won't thank you, but our listening stats will.
Meanwhile, our guests today are under no such physical pressure. They are firstly: from ITV's The Genius Game, PhD student and current Miss London, Charlotte Yeung, welcome back to the show.
Charlotte:
Hello. Thank you very much for having me again.
Tom:
I say current Miss London. How long does that last for?
Charlotte:
It's a 1-year reign.
Tom:
Alright.
Charlotte:
And I'm still hoping to keep my crown.
Tom:
What kind of things do you get to do as Miss London?
Charlotte:
Oh, I have done a couple of photo shoots with some celebrity photographers. I've gone and... (laughs) I've gone and done some pictures for a dental clinic as well.
SFX:
(Tom and Charlotte laugh)
Charlotte:
We're also hoping to do some inter-city crowned queens kind of things, with Birmingham, Manchester, all of those things. So, yeah, it's been fun. It's pretty good.
Tom:
How do you balance that and a PhD? That feels like too much going on for one person there.
Charlotte:
Yes. I've actually recently passed my upgrade. So that's been a huge sigh of relief from my side. But—
Tom:
I don't know what that is.
Charlotte:
When you start your PhD, you're technically on an MPhil course. and then one to one and a half years in, you have to do some sort of a 'viva', where it's you defending what you've done against two professors, and they basically either say you failed badly enough that you won't even get an MPhil; you failed, but you are good enough for an MPhil; or you can upgrade into your PhD. So I have recently upgraded into my PhD.
Tom:
Congratulations.
Charlotte:
Thank you.
Annie:
Yay.
Tom:
Well, thank you for taking the time (laughs) to come and play Lateral again. It is wonderful you're able to carve something out the schedule.
You are joined today by two other returning players:
Alexis Dahl from Michigan, and your channel about the history and the science up there. Welcome back to the show.
Alexis:
Thanks, joy to be here.
Tom:
This is your second episode. How did the first one go for you?
Alexis:
It was precisely as confusing as I was expecting it to be.
Tom:
(laughs)
Alexis:
And just as much of a good time.
Tom:
We talked last time about the things you're working on, and then about a ski jump that randomly I have also visited in the UP.
Alexis:
Yeah!
Tom:
You handle both bits of Michigan. It is this slightly disconnected state.
Alexis:
Mhm.
Tom:
Does the UP feel like it's part of Michigan? This is the Upper Peninsula, the other bit.
Alexis:
Yeah. In some ways it does, and in other ways it feels more culturally similar to Wisconsin. The best tidbit I can give to illustrate that is, so, the Detroit Lions are the American football team of Michigan. The entire Lower Peninsula generally will root for the Lions. Some of the Upper Peninsula will. The western Upper Peninsula roots for the Green Bay Packers.
Tom:
The Green Bay Packers.
Alexis:
In Wisconsin.
Tom:
Yep. The guy I knew up there had a giant foam block of cheese to wear on game days.
Alexis:
That sounds about right.
Tom:
Well, thank you for taking the time out to come and play. Our third player today... I always introduce you as from the depths of Wikipedia, because it's just such a wonderful phrase.
Annie:
You can, I like it. It makes me feel like I'm just crawling up from the depths. The first sunlight I've ever seen.
Tom:
I asked Charlotte at some point, what being Miss London and being a, you know, finalist for Miss England gets you access to and things like that. Do you get connections from being the Wikipedia person there?
Annie:
That's a good question. People call me "Miss Depths" sometimes.
Tom:
(laughs breathily)
Annie:
Which always is fun to me. I— Oh, okay. So the first time... when someone wrote a draft of a Wikipedia article about me, it was not somebody that I know well. 'Cause if you have a conflict of interest, you're not supposed to write it.
But it was somebody that I at least shared Discord servers with. And so they messaged me, and they said, "Can you upload some photos? I'm writing a draft of an article about you". And I said yes. And a lot of people don't have that courtesy and then get stuck with some random public domain blurry shot from years ago.
So that was a nice heads up that I got. I should have just uploaded them myself, but... So maybe that's a thing.
Tom:
I will admit to being a little bit grumpy that my Wikipedia article describes me as "YouTuber".
Alexis:
Mm.
Tom:
Because this is not on YouTube. This is a podcast. This is not the correct definition. And yet I would have a conflict of interest were I to wade in with that.
Annie:
Well, okay. So you can go on the talk page, but also Tom Scott, your audience and Wikipedia editors – that's a circle, so...
SFX:
(group laughing)
Annie:
I think that something will happen.
Tom:
Well, good luck to you and all three of our players today.
Let's begin today's marathon – sorry, episode – with question one.
Alexis:
(snickers)
Tom:
This question was sent in by Nick Tozer. Thank you, Nick.
A sporting trophy that is awarded every year was won by Australia in 2014. However, Australia will almost certainly never win it again. Why?
And one more time.
A sporting trophy that's awarded every year was won by Australia in 2014. However, Australia will almost certainly never win it again. Why?
Annie:
Okay, so my first thought was how Australia's in Eurovision, despite not being in Europe. And so I thought, oh, maybe they tightened the rules about that. But this is sports. And I do think that Eurovision kind of is a sport. It's a sport to me, but...
SFX:
(others giggling)
Annie:
But that's probably not it.
Tom:
Australia's in a surprising amount of things that you would feel would not be geographically in their area, but they turn up, they show willing.
Annie:
Good for them.
Tom:
Still haven't won Eurovision. But, you know, one year.
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Charlotte:
My first thought was maybe it's some sort of dangerous sport that post-2014, after winning, they were like, we can't do this anymore. Let's put a ban on this kind of sport. And that would stop all young talent from ever winning again. Tom looks at me with a blank stare. So it's not that.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Tom:
I have learned to let everyone just have a chat 'round it first.
Alexis:
I was trying to figure out if it's the sport was canceled, or something happened in Australia, and my little Upper Peninsula brain was like, ah, it's hunting related. Happy deer season, everyone. And there are no more of this animal in Australia. I'm sure that's incorrect.
Tom:
I mean, it's not right...
Alexis:
(giggles)
Tom:
It's not even close to right. But as ever, saying the crazy thing has sort of vaguely pulled you a little bit closer.
Alexis:
Okay. Best case scenario.
Annie:
So they're never gonna win again. And I—
Tom:
Australia will almost certainly never win again.
Annie:
Which I just tend to hold out hope in general. So 'never' is a big word there.
Tom:
Mm, almost certainly. Almost certainly.
Annie:
Oh, okay. May they might.
Tom:
It will— You keep saying 'they'.
Annie:
I'm thinking Australians. In Australian.
Tom:
It's not won by a team. It's won by Australia.
Charlotte:
It's won by Australia.
Tom:
Mhm.
Charlotte:
The country.
Tom:
(stammers)
Annie:
Did you de— So it's not a single person that won it.
Tom:
It's definitely not a single person that won it.
Charlotte:
Is it something like... I dunno, that's not— Oh, no, but it's a sport.
Tom:
What were you gonna say?
Charlotte:
I was gonna say like GDP. They have the highest GDP.
SFX:
(Tom and Charlotte laugh)
Charlotte:
They're not winning again.
Tom:
Not won by a team. And I'm being so careful with how I phrase this.
Alexis:
Okay.
Annie:
So the entirety of Australia won a sport?
Tom:
Nope. That's not what I said.
Charlotte:
(blurts laugh)
Tom:
I said it was won by Australia.
Alexis:
Like the landmass?
Tom:
Nope.
Alexis:
Okay. Is there a person whose name is also Australia?
Tom:
Now you're getting closer.
Annie:
(gasps)
Alexis:
Okay. Okay.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Annie:
Has Australia died?
Tom:
I'm not sure how Australia is doing right now.
Annie:
Okay. Well sorry, Australia, if you're listening and you're alive.
Tom:
In the same race, the second place was Kingston Hill, and it is a race we're talking about here.
Alexis:
Oh.
Annie:
Oh. I was imagining a person named Australia. And I guess you could have a person named Kingston Hill, but now it's starting to seem more unlikely.
Tom:
Oh, thank you, Producer David. Australia is still alive.
Annie:
Hi, Australia.
Alexis:
(laughs)
Tom:
Australia wouldn't really understand that.
Alexis:
Hmm.
Annie:
Is Australia an animal? Well, humans are animals. But is Australia... a little creature?
Tom:
Yes. That's why I said Alexis was a bit closer than you might think with mentioning hunting and deer. It's not a deer though.
Annie:
And a sport where animals compete. Is it a horse?
Tom:
It's a horse. Australia is a horse.
Annie:
Okay. That's fun.
Tom:
You are absolutely right. So, why is it unlikely that Australia will ever get the trophy again?
Annie:
Well, 10 years is a long time in horse racing.
Tom:
10 years is a long time. And not only that, you cannot name a horse the same name as a famous horse.
Alexis:
Ohhh.
Annie:
Oh, that makes total sense! But I haven't thought about it.
Tom:
This is the Epsom Derby in 2014. It's one of the world's most prestigious horse races. It was won by a colt named Australia, trained by Aiden O'Brien, which led to the headline "Australia wins the Derby".
Once a horse wins a Group 1 race, like the Epsom Derby, its name is protected for up to 25 years, to prevent confusion. And the names of famous horses are off-limits forever, which means that it is very, very unlikely that any future derby contender will have the name Australia.
Annie:
Oh no, I'm gonna have to change the name of my horse, Seabiscuit.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Tom:
Charlotte, we will head over to you for the next question, please.
Charlotte:
This question has been sent in by Kristen Asplin.
Kristen took her extended family to a fancy steakhouse. People sitting around one of the three tables received the wrong meals. When asked why, the server responded, "You touched the pig". What happened?
One more time.
Kristen took her extended family to a fancy steakhouse. People sitting around one of the three tables received the wrong meals. When asked why, the server responded, "You touched the pig". What happened?
Tom:
I love it when the name in the question is the same as the person who sent the question in. This is someone who had this thing happen and went, "That's a Lateral question".
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Tom:
Thank you. Thank you, Kristen.
Annie:
I'm just thinking about Finding Nemo, and it's like, "You touched the butt!"
SFX:
(Charlotte and Alexis giggle)
Annie:
But, "You touched the pig". It's probably not anything like that. I just figured I'd get the ball rolling.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Alexis:
I was wondering if it's a positive change, like by "the wrong meal", they received somehow a better meal... because of something with the pig.
Tom:
Yeah, did they say they complained, or they just... were like, were they just reacting to it?
Charlotte:
I would class this as complaining.
Alexis:
Mhm.
Tom:
Oh, okay.
Annie:
Is it a prohibition thing, where it's like you're not allowed to actually order alcohol, but if you order something, and you're touching the pig, we'll give you a martini?
SFX:
(others laughing)
Annie:
But it's, I guess if Kristen's writing the question, Kristen's probably not still alive if she were ordering drinks in the 1920s, so...
Tom:
Yeah, yeah, that's fair. It can't just be a gimmick that the steakhouse does, that we treat people badly if they happen to do this thing. That feels like, I don't want my meal to be an escape room.
SFX:
(Alexis and Charlotte laugh)
Tom:
Although I'm pretty sure that some people do, and that's actually a business idea that I should probably patent.
Alexis:
Oh yeah. Fancy steakhouse, escape room.
Tom:
Mhm.
Alexis:
It's going places.
Tom:
Es-steak room!
Alexis:
(gasps)
Charlotte:
Es-steak!
Alexis:
Yes!
SFX:
(group laughing)
Annie:
Copyright that now!
Charlotte:
Tom, can you make one, and we'll go do it?
SFX:
(group laughing)
Annie:
They're complaining about this. And so one thought is like, people that work at restaurants always try to know who's the reviewer. Like if there's a big-name reviewer, and sometimes reviewers will be anonymous for their whole career, but there are tells, like maybe this reviewer... I don't know, always touches a pig.
SFX:
(others giggling)
Annie:
But if they're complaining about this, 'cause I would think that you would wanna make the best food for the reviewer. And so if they're complaining that it's incorrect or something, that doesn't really fit. Is it like a health inspector that is always touching pigs?
SFX:
(group blurts laughter)
Charlotte:
Not quite. I will say, the pig wasn't part of any kind of food dish.
Alexis:
Okay.
Tom:
It's a metaphorical pig or something like that, or... pig is like— it's not like there's a toy pig in the corner, and that's the—
Charlotte:
That's actually closer. It's more like there's a toy pig in the corner. But it's not in the corner.
Tom:
Okay!
Alexis:
Is it properly a toy pig, or is it like a piggy bank situation?
Charlotte:
I would say a decorative pig.
Alexis:
Oh, okay.
Tom:
Okay, okay. Fancy steakhouses do not mess around with their diners.
Alexis:
Mhm.
Tom:
There are restaurants which do the comedy thing of, yeah, we'll treat you badly, deliberately. That's the shtick here. You know, there's tourist attraction restaurants like that, but fancy steakhouse does not overlap with that.
Annie:
And yet they have this gimmicky code language, where if you're touching a pig, it's opposite day or something.
Tom:
(laughs)
Annie:
Another thing that pigs bring to mind is kosher and dietary restrictions.
Tom:
Mm.
Alexis:
Mhm.
Tom:
But again, you wouldn't mess about with that, with a—
Alexis:
Right.
Tom:
The secret code for having a dietary restriction is you must know to do this.
Annie:
(giggles)
Tom:
That feels...
Charlotte:
So the table that received the wrong meals was the table that had younger family members sitting at it.
Tom:
Oh, okay.
Alexis:
Okay. Is this suggesting like a kids' menu situation?
Charlotte:
So if we go from what we know, we know that there is a literal pig, a decorative pig. We know that the table that had the wrong meals were the ones with children.
Tom:
So they'll run up and play around and touch the pig. They will—
Charlotte:
That's correct. They will—
Tom:
They will cause a disruption in the restaurant.
Charlotte:
But why would touching the pig cause... the wrong meals to be received?
Tom:
You cannot control yourself. You get the kids' menu now!
Alexis:
Right?
SFX:
(guests giggling)
Annie:
You're funny. Did the pig— so this decorative pig, maybe it held... order. I don't— when you're stacking all the orders for the kitchen people, was the pig involved in that? And maybe the kids messed it up?
Charlotte:
The pig was involved with that. It has got to do with ordering.
Annie:
What type of fancy— I need to know what steakhouse this is. Because what fancy steakhouse has a pig involved in the... The waitstaff is using a decorative pig. I'm just... I'm very confused, but intrigued.
Alexis:
Yeah. Is the pig holding menus in some way or... like holding an item?
Charlotte:
The pig— (cracks up)
Alexis:
(wheezes)
Charlotte:
(laughs heartily) The pig is holding something, but it doesn't— it's— that's not— I would say it's not related to the question.
Alexis:
Okay.
Charlotte:
Yeah. It's just decorative. I think that's the key.
Alexis:
Cool, cool.
Charlotte:
Yeah.
Tom:
Hmm, raagh!
Alexis:
(wheezes)
Charlotte:
I feel like Annie, you were getting really hot with an order kind of thing, so...
Annie:
Mhm.
Charlotte:
So if I was to say that the pig was placed in the middle of the table, and it helped...
Annie:
Do you turn— Oh. Is it like one of those things where you... I forgot the name of this.
Alexis:
Is that a lazy Susan? Those...
Annie:
Yeah, lazy Susan.
Tom:
Okay, but if that happens... then maybe the way that the serving staff note which diner requested which dish is based on the direction of the pig. 'Cause, some restaurants take notes of like, "diner wearing this", or "seat number two". But if it's like...
Annie:
Mhm.
Tom:
If they're going with like, "number one is just to the right of the pig's head", and they go around or something like that. The kids have played with the pig. They've put it in the wrong thing. They're getting the wrong dishes.
Charlotte:
Ding-ding-ding.
Alexis:
What?
SFX:
(Alexis and Charlotte laugh)
Annie:
Wow.
Tom:
Thank you for the tee-up there, Annie. That was on you.
Annie:
Well, you know, it's all— We have to bump, set, and spike. So it was teamwork.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Alexis:
That's wild! I'm just imagining the waitstaff being like, "Ah yes, and to the east of the pig, we have this dish".
SFX:
(group blurts laugh)
Charlotte:
So the nose of the pig is pointed to seat number one of the table, and the pig here is a decorative candle holder in the centre of the table. The servers use the nose of the pig to say which seat is number one when they take their orders.
However, the children at the table had been playing with the pig. And the nose was turned to face the wrong seat. This confused the next server when putting down the food.
The question writer, Kristen, says, "We have an inside joke of 'don't touch the pig' to say, 'don't mess with things'."
Annie:
See, this is actually a happy ending. 'Cause they can just rearrange and get what they ordered.
Alexis:
That's true.
Charlotte:
Yes.
Tom:
Thank you to William Jefferies for this question.
Jim, Jerry, and David bought the rights to the mediocre 1957 disaster movie Zero Hour! for $2,500, even though they had no intention of re-releasing it. Why?
I'll say that again.
Jim, Jerry, and David bought the rights to the mediocre 1957 disaster movie Zero Hour! for $2,500, even though they had no intention of re-releasing it. Why?
Alexis:
So I'm just gonna tell you the first thing that came into my head.
Tom:
Mhm.
Alexis:
They wanted to make a Muppets version of this movie.
SFX:
(group laughs heartily)
Annie:
Yes, please be correct. Please be correct.
Tom:
It's not quite there, but that is a very big step forward, Alexis.
SFX:
(Alexis and Annie laugh)
Tom:
Were you thinking Jim Henson there?
Alexis:
I was.
Tom:
It's not Jim Henson, but it is someone that film buffs will recognise.
Alexis:
Okay, okay.
Annie:
So they're making a version of it. They're adapting it.
Tom:
Yeah, that's safe to say.
Annie:
And it's somebody that film buffs would recognize?
Tom:
Yeah, I think so.
Annie:
Hmm.
Tom:
Most people I think wouldn't get the reference, but yeah, if you're well into your film directors, you'd know Jim, Jerry, and David.
Charlotte:
The only Jerry I know is Tom and Jerry.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Tom:
So you're right. They're not planning to make a profit directly off the old movie, but honestly, Muppets version is... Surprisingly close.
Alexis:
Okay.
Tom:
So this is a 1957 disaster movie called Zero Hour!.
Annie:
Is it like a parody, like a Sharknado situation? or some—
Tom:
Oh... yep, yeah. We're getting closer.
Alexis:
Okay, okay.
Annie:
Okay, Sharknado.
Tom:
But arguably, if you're doing a parody... you don't need to buy the rights. Like the folks who made the Scary Movie series didn't necessarily need to buy the rights to every movie they were parodying.
Annie:
And Dumb Starbucks didn't need... permission from Starbucks.
SFX:
(Tom and Alexis laugh)
Tom:
Well, that's also very arguable, but yes.
Alexis:
Is this like a sequel situation?
Tom:
Mm, not quite.
Alexis:
Okay.
Tom:
Honestly, you're just so close with 'Muppets version'.
SFX:
(guests laugh in turn)
Tom:
This happened in the late 1970s. I think is a— we're looking at the timeline there.
Annie:
So $2,500 is a lot more.
Tom:
Yes. But that film hadn't really done well.
Annie:
So, some sort of— what are adaptions— that were happening in the late '70s?
Alexis:
That's what I was wondering.
Annie:
Are there any '70s fads?
Tom:
Sort of, but I think it would be too much to ask you specifically what that— what the fad for the— for movies in the '70s was, for particularly disaster movies.
Alexis:
Hmm.
Tom:
If I tell you Zero Hour! has an exclamation mark in the title... that could technically also help.
Alexis:
Interesting, okay.
Annie:
Well I love anything with an exclamation point in the title, like Jeopardy!, Oklahoma!. But I don't know Zero Hour!. I'm gonna have to watch it now.
Tom:
You don't, but if— I honestly thought you might stumble across it with that. 'Cause you're right. We're looking for something with an exclamation mark in the title.
Annie:
I don't love exclamation points and titles that much that I'm an expert in all of them. Maybe someday though. Maybe next time if I'm on the show again, maybe I can learn all of them.
Charlotte:
You're gonna Wikipedia all of the exclamation marks.
SFX:
(Tom and Charlotte laugh)
Annie:
Uh-huh. And if there are any copyrighted exclamation marks that aren't there, I will write all of the articles.
Tom:
It wasn't a Muppets version. But... it was certainly... heavily based on that original script.
Alexis:
Okay.
Annie:
Was it a film that they were making?
Tom:
It was, yes.
Annie:
Okay.
Tom:
And it was about an air disaster.
Alexis:
Did Airplane! come out in the '70s?
Tom:
Airplane! did come out in the '70s, Alexis.
Alexis:
Oh!
Annie:
Ohhh.
Tom:
For those that don't know, what is Airplane!?
Alexis:
I've seen it once. It's a stupid, wonderful comedy movie about a crashing airplane.
Tom:
Yes, it is one of the first Abrahams–Zucker–Zucker movies – Jim Abrahams, Jerry Zucker, David Zucker – who were working on a spoof disaster movie. And if you know Airplane!, which is if you're a comedy buff, you know that movie. That movie is Zero Hour! with jokes added.
Alexis:
Ohhh!
Tom:
If you've seen the joke of, "I just wanna tell you, good luck. We're all counting on you." Of Leslie Nielsen coming in and doing that line five times, that line is in Zero Hour!. Loads of the jokes are just Zero Hour!'s script with a punchline added on.
Alexis:
That's wonderful! I now want to go watch that movie and also Airplane!.
Tom:
It's a really bad movie!
Alexis:
Perfect!
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Tom:
Alexis, whenever you're ready, your question please.
Alexis:
Alright!
So this question has been sent in by Emily.
Goldie walks into a woodland and holds a small concave mirror. She is careful to ensure that her face doesn't appear in the reflection. What is she doing? And again. Goldie walks into a woodland and holds a small concave mirror. She is careful to ensure that her face does not appear in the reflection. What is she doing?
Tom:
Until you said "she", in my head, this was Goldie, the English producer and... I don't— Is he a— I dunno if he's a rapper or a producer. I don't know enough about him other than recognising the face of Goldie in my head and going, "Is it Gold—" No, she, never mind.
Alexis:
(laughs)
Tom:
This is a very different story.
Annie:
Well, I heard "Goldie walks", and I thought...
Charlotte:
Goldilocks!
Annie:
No, it's supposed to be Goldilocks.
Charlotte:
Yeah. And then she said, woodlands. And I was like, this is the— this is Goldilocks.
SFX:
(group giggling)
Tom:
And clearly if you want to avoid being trapped by the fae, then you go in with a concave mirror, so they can't see you directly, and your face isn't in it, yeah.
Alexis:
(giggles) Perfect. That's exactly it.
Charlotte:
Was she using the mirror to reflect light in some way, if not as a reflection of her face?
Tom:
Oh, to burn things with the sun's rays. 'Cause you wanna make sure your face isn't in that.
Annie:
She's in arson. (laughs)
Charlotte:
I'm gonna say no.
SFX:
(Tom and Alexis laugh)
Annie:
Okay. So concave is when it goes in like a cave. And usually when people have those security mirrors... those are convex, I think, but I could be wrong. I don't have one of those.
Tom:
No, you're right there. Convex is the ones that you— so you've got a wider field of view for getting around tight corners. Concave is gonna give you really odd reflections. Concave is what you use to focus the sun's rays or something like that.
Annie:
Mhm.
Tom:
You can also use concave, I mean, mirror's a questionable word here, but you can use concave surfaces to focus sound. If you're listening for bird calls or something like that.
Charlotte:
Goldie, what are you doing?
Alexis:
I will say, sound is not involved. As cool as that would be.
Tom:
Okay.
Annie:
Oh, that'd be cool.
Charlotte:
Is Goldie playing very competitive... paintballing? And doesn't wanna get caught by anyone else, but she wants to see everybody?
Alexis:
Alas, no. She is doing something work-related.
Tom:
She's confusing insects. You just put the concave mirror down over the anthill, and they don't know what's going on.
Alexis:
(guffaws)
Annie:
And that's my job, 9-to-5.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Annie:
Just mess 'em up.
Alexis:
Not quite the right direction, alas.
Tom:
Oh, then up. She's confusing birds!
Annie:
(chuckles)
Alexis:
No birds. But she is looking up.
Annie:
She's looking up
Alexis:
while she's doing this?
Tom:
Huh.
Alexis:
Or she's using the mirror to look up rather.
Charlotte:
Oh, she places the mirror on the ground, so she can get a better— No, I dunno. You could just look up to do that. (laughs)
Tom:
Yeah, that'd hurt your neck though. Maybe it's a viewing thing, so she doesn't have to constantly crane her neck upwards.
Annie:
Is she a birder?
Alexis:
She's not a birder. Does likely work in a related field. And I will say there is also something on the mirror. There are... some lines. There's a grid etched into the mirror.
Annie:
Okay. Is she an arborist? Is she studying trees? Or is she studying the sky?
Tom:
Or the intersection of trees with the sky. How much canopy is there?
Alexis:
Oh, that? Yep. That's it, Tom. You just hit the nail on the head.
Tom:
Oh!
SFX:
(group laughing)
Alexis:
You said it in such a brainstormy way that I was like...
Tom:
Right.
Alexis:
Oh yeah. No, that's it.
Tom:
I didn't think it was that! Oh, okay.
Alexis:
Yeah.
Tom:
That's how you count how much tree cover there is.
Alexis:
Yeah, so this thing is called a densiometer, and it's a curved mirror, and it has a grid of lines etched into it. And it's used by foresters who are trying to estimate the canopy cover in a wooded area.
So the grid has 24 squares on it, and then you sort of visually divide each of those squares into quarters, and then you hold it up, and you look at the canopy in this mirror, and you count the number of quarter squares that are not covered by trees.
So if you take that number, if you multiply it by 1.04, that gives you a percentage of how much of the sky is visible. Then if you subtract that from 100, you get the actual amount of tree cover.
Annie:
They must take these calculations constantly. This must be changing all the time.
Alexis:
Yeah, I'm curious what number of things you can learn from studying the tree canopy. 'Cause I'm sure it's extensive.
Annie:
Maybe I will be buying a densiometer myself.
Tom:
(laughs)
Annie:
Maybe I'll be just like Goldie.
Alexis:
Perfect. Please report back.
Charlotte:
I would love to do that as a job. Imagine you're just walking around the forest, and all you're doing is counting squares.
Annie:
Right?
Charlotte:
And then you get to— And how pretty would it be? You get to see the sky as well from your hands.
Alexis:
Yeah. A couple of years ago, I got to shadow a group of undergrads at the forestry school, at one of the universities up here. And it was, so they take an entire semester, and they go away to this camp in the woods. And I went and I followed 'em around for a day to learn what they were learning.
And it was this delightful experience of just hiking and occasionally having this 19-year-old point at a plant and say, "Oh, that one tastes like peppermint. You should eat that one."
SFX:
(group laughing)
Alexis:
It was really charming. It seems just fun and complicated and interesting to be a forester.
Tom:
Thank you to Bob Weisz for this question.
The Tale of Genji, a 1000-year-old Japanese novel, has been reprinted in dozens of languages. Yet, Chapter 42 – 'Maboroshi' – has never been translated. Why?
I'll say that again.
The Tale of Genji, a 1000-year-old Japanese novel, has been reprinted in dozens of languages. Yet, Chapter 42 – 'Maboroshi' – has never been translated. Why?
Charlotte:
Was the first line of the chapter to say, "Please do not translate this to another language"?
SFX:
(group chuckling)
Charlotte:
Is it to do with the chapter 42? Like for example, numbers have meanings. Like four is an unlucky number in Chinese culture because of the... sound of death. So would 42 be related?
Alexis:
Surely it's not a "this page is left intentionally blank" situation.
Tom:
(grumbles) I mean, what do you mean by that?
Alexis:
I mostly meant it as a joke initially, in the way that some research papers or books are just like, "Eh, this page is intentionally left blank" for printer reasons or something. Is this like, something happened in the story that there was just nothing to say?
Tom:
Yes, basically. I mean, you've made it slightly more complicated than it needs to be.
Alexis:
Checks out. Okay.
Tom:
"This page intentionally left blank" would still be something you can translate.
Alexis:
Oh, sure. So it was just empty? There's just nothing on the page?
Tom:
(laughs) There's just nothing on the page! You're absolutely right.
Alexis:
(giggles)
Tom:
You even hit one of the more subtle points there. It is unknown if that chapter was removed at some point in history. Some scholars believe the author left it blank on purpose to imply the death of the main character. So you even got that while brainstorming. Congratulations.
Alexis:
(laughs) Huh! Weird. Cool.
Tom:
It was written in the early 11th century by Lady Murasaki Shikibu. I am so mispronouncing that, I'm sorry. It is thought to be the world's oldest full novel.
Alexis:
Really?
Tom:
And so it is not known if there was originally a chapter 42, and at some point it was lost. It may just be there deliberately to imply, we don't know. But it has never been translated because it is empty.
Annie:
Well, 42 is conveniently the meaning of life, the universe, and everything, or whatever it is.
Alexis:
Was that the last chapter?
Tom:
There are plenty more chapters. It goes up to chapter 55.
Alexis:
Oh?
Tom:
But the previous chapters are about him aging, and the rest of the book takes place after his death.
Alexis:
Ohhh.
Annie:
Clever!
Tom:
It could be a literary device. It could also be that at some point in history, someone lost chapter 42.
Annie:
Or they censored it?
Tom:
Or censored it.
Alexis:
Yeah. I like to imagine she wrote it out of order and was like, oh, I'll come back to that scene. And was like, "Mm, no, can't do it."
Tom:
Annie, we will go to you for the next question.
Annie:
Okay.
This question has been sent in by Tim Kelby.
Steve has a terrible memory and couldn't remember if it was the moon, the Cadillac, or the can of paint. After a little thinking, he confidently pressed the submarine button. Where is Steve, and what jogged his memory?
SFX:
(Annie and Alexis giggle)
Tom:
We're all writing this down, right? We're all...
SFX:
(guests giggling)
Annie:
You should— you— these— the— yeah.
Steve has a terrible memory and couldn't remember if it was the moon, the Cadillac, or the can of paint. After a little thinking, he confidently pressed the submarine button. Where is Steve, and what jogged his memory?
(laughs) Good luck!
Charlotte:
This is giving escape room vibes.
Tom:
Right?
Annie:
It is, uh-huh. So this is not— It's practical. Not that that's not practical, but it's kind of... I mean, yeah. I dunno. You sign up for a puzzle. This is just life.
Charlotte:
I'm just thinking, where in life can you confuse these three items? I mean in Cadillac and can of paint, you know, they're physically in front view, so... It's just moon is all very off-putting.
Tom:
Cadillac is such a specific word as well.
Alexis:
Yeah.
Tom:
It's not moon and car and can of paint. It's moon and—
Annie:
It's specifically a Cadillac.
Charlotte:
Is this like, in a song, like in a romance song, these are like lyrics? (laughs) I'm just—
Annie:
Can you sing the entire song of what you're imagining, just for us?
SFX:
(group laughing)
Annie:
So I like what you're thinking. This— It's not like— I don't know of a single song that contains these elements, but...
Tom:
Moonlight on the Cadillac. Paint on the submarine. It doesn't really work as anything but a really obscure country song.
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Annie:
But... keep thinking. I like, I love what you were doing.
Tom:
Okay, so maybe this is some other language, like this is an East Asian language that uses glyphs rather than letters. And he doesn't speak the language, but he knows that this one looks vaguely like the moon. This one looks vaguely like the can of paint.
Alexis:
Oh, interesting.
Tom:
But I don't know a language that looks vaguely like a can of paint, and Cadillac!
Alexis:
Yeah, right.
Tom:
It's not gonna be Cadillac.
Annie:
Think about Charlotte's idea of a love song that is like... (snickers) I don't— you know, incorporating all these elements. That was really not so far off.
Tom:
This is why you say the silly thing, always!
Alexis:
Uh-huh, uh-huh.
Annie:
But it wasn't correct, but it wasn't crazy.
Alexis:
Okay. The only thing I can— I know about submarines in music is "Yellow Submarine" by the Beatles. And I've told you—
Annie:
Okay, that? Boom. You got us a step closer.
Alexis:
Oh, I told you everything I know.
Annie:
We all live in one.
Alexis:
Oh, thank you.
Tom:
No, hold on. You've— There's a song called "Blue Moon".
Annie:
Mhm.
Tom:
There's a song... I dunno what colour it is. I think there's a... Is it "Red Cadillac", "Pink Cadillac"? Something like that?
Annie:
Yes, ding, ding, ding! Okay!
Charlotte:
Okay.
Tom:
I don't know... what colour the can of paint would be.
Alexis:
(wheezes)
Tom:
Black. The Rolling Stones. "Paint It Black".
Alexis:
Oh!
Annie:
Tom, this is why you're Tom Scott.
Okay, that— so yes. All of these things correspond to a famous song.
Alexis:
Okay, was he—
Tom:
Okay.
Alexis:
Is there a jukebox involved somehow?
Annie:
No, but I like... I liked the idea.
Alexis:
Okay, okay.
Tom:
I like how we've pieced this together. We've had Charlotte's song, and Alexis' "Yellow Submarine", and my colours. We... What are we missing?
Charlotte:
He had to find a link between these words and the submarine, and then he was like, oh, they're all colours.
Tom:
He pushed the button labelled "submarine". Is he in an escape room? This feels escape room-ish.
Annie:
No, he's not in a— well, he's not in an escape room, but he is in a place that can feel like an escape room sometimes.
Alexis:
I'm like, so many places in my life feel like escape rooms. The grocery store.
SFX:
(group blurts chuckle)
Tom:
And why would you not just write down the colours? Is Steve completely colourblind, and needs some other thing to tell him which button to push?
Annie:
Well, I have no idea if Steve is colorblind or not, but Steve was trying to recall something from a few hours before.
Charlotte:
He was trying to recall something from a few hours before, and he knows the words moon, Cadillac, and can of paint. And then he ends up pushing the submarine button.
Tom:
For yellow. Meaning yellow.
Annie:
Yeah.
Charlotte:
For yellow.
Tom:
Is it one of those mnemonic devices, where you try and remember stuff by thinking of something else?
Annie:
Yes.
Tom:
But then why... Why have you not just remember the colours? And why would you have a button with 'submarine' on it?
Annie:
Well, the colors are helpful, but this is, maybe this is a mnemonic for many, many people. And so some people that will be using this might be colorblind. Who knows? Some people that might be using this might be blind. You want as many ways to remember as possible.
Tom:
(gasps loudly) Parking!
Annie:
Say more, say more.
Tom:
Okay. The... The parking garages at Universal Studios are named after movies.
Alexis:
Oh?
Tom:
The ones in Disney are named after characters, but they also all have numbers next to them, and they also all have colours. Because some people remember numbers, and some people remember colours, and some people remember characters. So is this the parking garage at...
Annie:
Just stop there.
Tom:
No, no, no. I'm trying to figure out where it is. 'Cause it's like, is this at a record store or like Capital Records or something like that?
Annie:
It is a parking garage. It's not— Okay. What I'm— I'm just gonna tell you, because there's— I don't think that you could ever guess which one this is, but it's the multi-storey Erie Ontario parking garage in Chicago.
Tom:
Sure, okay!
Alexis:
Sure!
Charlotte:
Oh yeah, that one.
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Tom:
I tried to Lateral too hard!
Annie:
Yes. So Steve had left his car at the multi-storey Erie Ontario parking garage in Chicago. Maybe you've been there, maybe not.
In the elevator lobby on each floor, while you're waiting for the elevator, a short burst of a famous song plays on loop, which my thought is, I would hate to work there and just have to hear "Yellow Submarine" a million times. Each level has a different song. To further reinforce the mnemonic device, each song title has a color in it. "Blue Moon", "Pink Cadillac", "Paint it Black", or in Steve's case, "Yellow Submarine". There's also, in case you're curious, "Orange Colored Sky", "Brown Eyed Girl", "Band of Gold", "Purple People Eater".
This is very fun. I would have so much fun designing this. When you return to the garage, the elevator has the song titles and their colored symbols next to each button.
Tom:
Which leaves us with the question from the start of the show.
Thank you to Sammy from New Zealand for sending this in.
In what way is 100 the first, and 38 the last?
Anyone want to take a shot at that? With the knowledge that this is one of those... kind of quiz questions that will probably make you hate the author?
Alexis:
(snorts)
Tom:
Sammy has been very clever here. This is one of those things where you're like, that is a quiz question.
Annie:
So it goes from 100 to 138?
Tom:
Nope, 100 to 38.
Annie:
Is it alphabetical? No, never mind.
Tom:
Uhm, keep talking.
Annie:
I was just thinking if you alphabetized numbers... sometimes it's really weird what happens.
Tom:
It is, you're right.
Charlotte:
Is 'A' 1-0-0, and then it's only up to threes, and then maybe 'B' is 0-1-0? And then 'Z' would be 0-3? (laughs)
Tom:
Not quite. That's not quite the mapping of letters to numbers. But you're right, Annie. It's alphabetical order.
Annie:
Oh, really? Are you serious?
Tom:
Yeah!
Annie:
T-38 is the last one?
Tom:
No, not quite. 38 is the last.
Annie:
Is that not what I said?
Tom:
Yes, but like 39 would come after 38 if you were just doing these in English.
Annie:
Oh, you're right. Okay.
Tom:
And 100 wouldn't be the first.
Annie:
So are they being alphabetized in a different language?
Tom:
They are— (grumbles) Oh, you're so close! You're so close!
Annie:
Is it Roman numeral related?
Tom:
It's Roman numerals, yes.
Alexis:
Oh!
Tom:
(laughs) You're absolutely right, Annie. The first Roman numeral alphabetically is C for 100. And the last one alphabetically is XXXVIII. All the other Roman numerals, no matter their size... are earlier in the alphabet than 38.
Annie:
When you alphabetize numbers, and you write them on English, eight is first, which feels so random. There's none that start with A, B, C, D.
Alexis:
I don't like that for some reason.
Annie:
I don't like it at all.
SFX:
(Tom and Annie laugh)
Annie:
It makes me very uncomfortable.
Tom:
Congratulations to our players for running the gauntlet. Thank you very much.
Where can people find you? What's going on in your lives?
We will start with Alexis.
Alexis:
Yeah, you can find me on YouTube at youtube.com/alexisdahl, D-A-H-L. And come learn some fun stuff about my corner of the world.
Tom:
Annie.
Annie:
I am on most social media – TikTok, Instagram, Bluesky – and I'm in your house. Aah!
Tom:
(blurts laugh) And Charlotte!
Charlotte:
You can find me on Instagram at mikichar, M-I-K-I-C-H-A-R.
Tom:
And if you wanna know more about this show, you can do that at lateralcast.com. We are at @lateralcast basically everywhere, and there are weekly full video episodes on Spotify.
Thank you very much to Charlotte Yeung.
Charlotte:
Thank you.
Tom:
Annie Rauwerda.
Annie:
Thanks.
Tom:
Alexis Dahl.
Alexis:
Thanks.
Tom:
I've been Tom Scott, and that's been Lateral.
Episode Credits
| HOST | Tom Scott |
| QUESTION PRODUCER | David Bodycombe |
| EDITED BY | Julie Hassett at The Podcast Studios, Dublin |
| MUSIC | Karl-Ola Kjellholm ('Private Detective'/'Agrumes', courtesy of epidemicsound.com) |
| ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS | Kristen Asplin, Tim Kelby, Emily, Sammy, Nick Tozer, William Jefferies, Bob Weisz |
| FORMAT | Pad 26 Limited/Labyrinth Games Ltd |
| EXECUTIVE PRODUCERS | David Bodycombe and Tom Scott |