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Episode 180: A curved bridge
20th March, 2026 • Rowan Ellis, Jarvis Johnson and Jordan Adika face questions about Disney decorations, cartoon casts and birthday backs.
Transcription by Caption+
Tom:
For what purpose does Disney use colours called 'Go Away Green' and 'Blending Blue'?
The answer to that at the end of the show. My name's Tom Scott, and this is Lateral.
Welcome to Lateral, or as it's known in France, "La Pensée en Zig-Zag".
In Italian, it's called "Il Quiz della Curva Improvvisa", which means "The quiz that takes a corner sharper than a Vespa on cobblestones".
But of course, the most precise translation comes from Germany, where it's officially titled "Die Sonderfragen- Denksportshow".
Jordan:
(snickers)
Tom:
Rolls right off the tongue.
And appearing in every version are our wonderful guests.
Firstly, it is a Guten Tag to: one half of the Sad Boyz podcast, and... on Jarvis Johnson Gold, Jarvis Johnson, welcome back.
Jarvis:
That's— I— yeah. I'm now going by Jarvis Johnson Gold, as my YouTube channel is my identity. And there's nothing more than the man on the screen.
Tom:
It was a while back when I was on the podcast. I was on Sad Boyz with you. With a Z, with a Z.
Jarvis:
With a Z.
Tom:
And at some point I would love to come back on because I did not know that the Patreon bonus we did was weird game show clips.
Jordan:
Yeah.
Jarvis:
Yeah.
Tom:
I'm like, if I ever come back, I have so many clips to prepare to send you. Prepare for an entire 90-minute deep dive on obscure European game shows.
Jarvis:
Complete— Completely improvised, Tom just had so many, we joke privately that Tom just randomly knows, like, "Oh yeah, that was a weird show that was produced by Bimbly Frog Johnson, in..."
SFX:
(others giggling)
Jarvis:
"And what's crazy is that later he got cancelled."
SFX:
(group laughing)
Jarvis:
It's like, oh cool.
Tom:
I appreciate how the accent there divided between mine and also Dick Van Dyke in Mary Poppins. It was halfway between the two.
Jarvis:
I wanted everyone to feel represented, you know?
Tom:
(cracks up) Well also joining us, the other half of the Sad Boyz – with a Z – podcast, Jordan Adika. How are you doing?
Jordan:
With a Z. "Jordan Zadikaz" is fine with me.
SFX:
(Tom and Rowan chuckle)
Jordan:
Yeah, I'm good man. How you doing?
SFX:
(group blurts laughter)
Tom:
No one ever asks that! No one ever asks that!
Jordan:
I, the empath.
SFX:
(group laughs uproariously)
Tom:
I will spare you the... the thousand-word diatribe on exhaustion and just say, "Yeah mate, I'm fine." Same as everyone else in England does.
Jordan:
You're alright, safe, yeah.
Tom:
What have you been talking about on the podcast lately?
Jarvis:
Lots of AI.
Jordan:
A lot of AI stuff. It is occupying—
Tom:
Oh, don't say that. No one— The trouble is that's the least appealing thing you could say.
Jarvis:
Can't help it. Can't help it.
Jordan:
But if we are— The reason it comes up so much is because, I think the show is at its best when we are... psyched up. When we are fired up about something. And right now, it is such a nice go-to for things that are annoyingly funny to us. So that's been a focal point.
Same with, I finally got back to posting on my channel. That video is a very long video of me ranting about a creepy AI product that I saw. And... I don't want to do other stuff.
Tom:
(laughs) Well, thank you for being here and away from the world of AI for a while.
Jordan:
No problem.
Tom:
The last member of our trio today: from the Queer Movie Podcast and her own YouTube channel, Rowan Ellis.
Rowan:
Es tut mir Leid— Kann nickte Englisch sprechen.
No, I was literally just in Berlin do— as a creative— doing a creative residency with a research project about AI. So what I've really done is used my life combined, to make this a really relevant introduction accidentally.
Yeah, no, I'm doing great. So good to be here.
Tom:
Do you actually speak German, or have you just memorised the line?
Rowan:
Not at all.
Tom:
The same way I've memorised "Pardon, je parle seulement un petit peu de français".
Rowan:
Yeah, I've memorised it. I don't even know if that's right. And what's really funny about Berlin is... you can say a single syllable, and they'll be like, "Don't speak German to me. You're clearly English."
SFX:
(others laughing)
Rowan:
And so you cannot even— you can't even practice it.
Jordan:
Stolen valour.
Tom:
Well, very best of luck to all three of our players on the show today.
We'll begin today's show with a universal phrase we all understand: question one.
Sam worked in a retail store in Vancouver. In 2012, a customer chose to post his business card online. Why did this go viral?
I'll say that again.
Sam worked in a retail store in Vancouver. In 2012, a customer chose to post his business card online. Why did this go viral?
Jordan:
Okay, so Vancouver, Canada. Canada only just got the internet.
Tom:
(cackles softly)
Jordan:
What are they into? Mostly moose and stuff like that.
Jarvis:
Maple syrup.
Jordan:
By doing— But having a greater quality of life than us.
SFX:
(Jordan and Tom chuckle)
Rowan:
It was 2012, right?
Tom:
Yeah, yeah.
Rowan:
Okay. So again, year the world ended. Okay. Yeah.
Jordan:
Yeah. You guys doing alright after that?
Rowan:
Famously, famously. I mean, it was— okay, so the viral elements of this, it's something to do with the business card, but was it like a— If we think about why things go viral...
Jarvis:
Yes.
Rowan:
It's either very funny, like ironic or anger inducing.
Jordan:
Mhm, yeah.
Rowan:
I feel like there's a kind of a variety of reasons why virality is like...
Jarvis:
Yeah. Or he's like a missing person or something.
SFX:
(others laughing)
Jarvis:
Someone who hasn't been seen.
Rowan:
Oh my god, it was— He was Amelia Earhart.
Jarvis:
Right, exactly.
Tom:
Business card just says DB Cooper.
Jarvis:
Yeah, DB Cooper.
SFX:
(Rowan and Jordan laugh)
Jarvis:
Dave N. Busters Cooper.
Rowan:
Oh my god. It's all coming together.
Jordan:
What a huge slipup on DB Cooper's part. He got away with it, and then started giving out his name.
Jarvis:
He was carrying business cards.
Jordan:
"Hey, I'm DB. I'm a criminal."
Rowan:
He was watching a DVD about being a good businessman. He was like, "I gotta get business cards. The DVD told me to."
Jarvis:
The funny thing about that is that DB Cooper didn't even go by DB Cooper. His name was Dan Cooper. And DB Cooper became his name after they started talking about him.
So him later adopting DB Cooper would be a poor decision.
Jordan:
(blurts laugh)
Jarvis:
Okay.
Jordan:
"Hi, I'm the Zodiac Killer."
Tom:
Is this like how assassins always get known by three names? Like John Wilkes Booth, Lee Harvey Oswald?
Jordan:
Jordan Thomas Adika.
Tom:
(laughs)
Rowan:
Mhm.
Tom:
Which I think is just, the FBI give the full name out and the press just kind of latch onto that.
Jarvis:
Well, FBI is three names as well.
Jordan:
Oh, what the hell?
Tom:
That's true. That's true. You said funny, ironic, or anger-inducing, Rowan. I would go with funny and ironic.
Jordan:
Okay.
Tom:
Probably anger-inducing for the guy who's had his business card posted. But funny and ironic.
Jordan:
Retail. So he works at a retail store and has a business card that presumably is related to another gig that he has, and that induces, it's hilarious. He's a magician, mayhaps?
Tom:
It's related to... something, yes.
Jarvis:
I'm wondering if it's like, he has a name that's like another store, or like a competing store.
Tom:
Yes. We're absolutely getting towards it now.
Jordan:
Bro, good get, oh man.
Rowan:
Oh, is his name Tim Horton?
Tom:
(cackles) His first name is—
Rowan:
If it's Canadian?
Jarvis:
And he's a Starbucks employee?
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Tom:
Oh, now, it's not that. But Tim Horton working at Starbucks? Yeah, same gag, different names. And remember, the first name is Sam.
Jarvis:
Sam.
Jordan:
Sam's Club.
Jarvis:
Sam's Club. So he's working at Costco. A guy named Sam working at Costco.
Tom:
It'd have to be Sam Club for that to work out.
Jarvis:
That's true. That's true.
Rowan:
S Club.
Jordan:
Yeah. Is it S Club 7?
SFX:
(Tom and Jarvis laugh)
Tom:
Oh yeah. S Club 7 is of course short for Sam's Club 7.
Jarvis:
Sam's Club 7.
Tom:
That's a reference that you have to know both British and American trivia to get that joke.
Jarvis:
Yeah. Ain't no party like a Sam's Club party.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Tom:
'Cause a Sam's Club party costs two bucks, but has like five lanes of alcohol!
Jarvis:
The Sam's Club 7 is what I called me and my ragtag group of misfits when we go shopping.
SFX:
(Tom and Jordan laugh)
Jordan:
"Hey, we're hittin' the grocery store."
Tom:
Okay. Not Sam's Club.
Jordan:
Sam's Club, I mean, is this a regional reference that—
Tom:
No, not— in fact—
Jordan:
Okay, good.
Tom:
It's a global reference.
Jarvis:
Sam.
Tom:
I don't think there's a... You know what, I actually don't think there's a country in the world where there isn't someone who'd get this reference.
Jordan:
Is it McDonald's?
Tom:
It's a very high-end store that he works at.
Jarvis:
High-end store.
Jordan:
McDonald's.
Tom:
(guffaws)
Jordan:
Want the McRib?
Jarvis:
Retail store. High-end retail.
Rowan:
I was gonna say Marks and Sam's Club.
SFX:
(guys crack up)
Jordan:
Yeah, his name's Marks and Sparks.
Rowan:
(giggles)
Jarvis:
Sam's short for Samuel. Samantha. I'm trying to— Sammy.
Jordan:
Sam Target.
Jarvis:
The only stores that I know that have Sam in the name are Sam's Club and Sam Goody.
Tom:
Not necessarily a store here.
Rowan:
Oh.
Jarvis:
Oh, right. It's retail though, right?
Tom:
He certainly works in a retail store.
Jarvis:
I see.
Tom:
The name is still ironic. I'm sure the other brand does have some retail stores somewhere, but...
Jarvis:
Got it.
Tom:
This one's famous for—
Jarvis:
So he's working at a retail store, but he has a very hoity-toity sounding, high class sounding name.
Tom:
(grumbles) How do I phrase this? I think... most people on this call... will own one of these products. Knowing what I know about you all... I think most people on this call will have walked into one of these stores.
Jordan:
Does he work at an Apple store? But his name is like Johnny Android?
Tom:
His name starts with Sam.
Rowan:
So much for...
Jarvis:
Sam...
Jordan:
Samsung?
Rowan:
Samsung!
Tom:
Sam Sung!
Jarvis:
Samsung!
Tom:
Absolutely right.
Jordan:
That is awesome.
Jarvis:
Wow.
Tom:
Yes. His full name was Sam Sung. A customer found it amusing that he worked at an Apple store and posted his business card online with his phone number on it.
Rowan:
Oh no.
Jarvis:
That—
Rowan:
Oh, poor Sam.
Jarvis:
I'm a little mad at myself I didn't put that together, but very funny.
But don't dox people. Can we have this as a PSA? Regardless of the... regardless of clout... don't allow yourself to be blinded by clout. Think of, it's a human being, okay?
Tom:
A year later, Sam left retail, changed his surname to Strung, and now works as a recruitment consultant.
Jordan:
Okay, and where is that, and what's his phone number and address?
SFX:
(group laughing)
Rowan:
Have you got the business card?
Tom:
He actually auctioned off the business cards for charity.
Jordan:
Oh good.
Jarvis:
Oh, that's great.
Rowan:
Awwh.
Jarvis:
By the way, I thought you were doing a bit, and you were gonna say his name is Sam Strung, and now he works at Guitar Center.
SFX:
(group laughs heartily)
Tom:
Rowan, we will go to you for the next question, please.
Rowan:
This question has been sent in by Rex S.
Why did Carlos spend nine years wearing a shirt with his birthday on the back?
The question again.
Why did Carlos spend nine years wearing a shirt with his birthday on the back?
Tom:
What?
Rowan:
That's all you're getting from me.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Jordan:
And what is the answer?
Jarvis:
Tom just going, "What?" It should be a so— on my soundboard.
Jordan:
Final episode of the show, ever. "Ay, huh?"
Jarvis:
Yes. Five seconds long.
SFX:
(group laughs heartily)
Jarvis:
He just goes, "What?" And then it ends.
Jordan:
(wheezes loudly) You say "What?" And then, the helicopter comes back and you grab the ladder.
SFX:
(audience laughs heartily)
Jordan:
"I changed my mind!"
Jarvis:
Okay. Birthday on the back of his shirt. His name is Carlos. That's probably not relevant.
Tom:
Carlos is not like the name of a month in a language I don't know, right? It's not like...
Rowan:
Carlos isn't.
Tom:
That's a shame. 'Cause if he was a footballer, and...
Jordan:
Ohhh!
Tom:
A footballer... whose last name was March, say, and they were born on March the third.
Jarvis:
Yeah.
Tom:
Give him number three.
Rowan:
Thomas. Thomas, Thomas, Thomas.
Jordan:
Mm-mm.
Rowan:
That's literally the answer.
Jordan:
What?
Tom:
What?
Jarvis:
Yeah.
Rowan:
Truly, you already have it.
Tom:
It can't be because it's got Carlos on the back.
Rowan:
No, because Carlos would be his first name.
Jarvis:
Carlos's his first name.
Jordan:
His name's Carlos Football.
Rowan:
His name's Carlos Football. You quite literally— It's so close as well. The month was almost right. 'Cause it's just the different M month. It was just Carlos May.
Jarvis:
Carlos... May.
Jordan:
He's a May man. Ain't nothing wrong with that. May 5th, baby, 1992.
Rowan:
Damn.
Jordan:
And for '94.
Jarvis:
May 5th.
Rowan:
Carlos was a May 17th.
Tom:
I feel like I've just destroyed the entire concept of this show. I just— I didn't—
SFX:
(Rowan and Jordan laugh)
Jordan:
It was, it was, look. Sometimes you can't help it.
Jarvis:
"It's probably something stupid like—" and then says the exact—
Rowan:
Something so silly.
Jordan:
The thing is is that in Tom's mind, he just left for three hours into his mind palace.
Tom:
(laughs uproariously)
Jordan:
The question was short for the show, but you— I dunno if you knew this. Your eyes rolled back in your head, and you started speaking in tongues.
Rowan:
We've been waiting for you for so long to figure out that answer. Yeah, no. Carlos May spent nine seasons playing for the Chicago White Sox. And he chose the shirt number 17 so that he was able to wear "May 17" on the back of his shirt.
Jordan:
That's so funny. That's like what children do.
Rowan:
I love that, also, my favorite bit of information here is that he's the only MLB baseballer to have been able to wear his birthday shirt, to date.
So there's still possible, anyone with a month as a last name, we're looking for you to break that solo streak.
Jarvis:
Or we make up a new month.
Tom:
(laughs)
Rowan:
That's also possible.
Jarvis:
There is a genre of athletes... having fun phrases or fun jokes in their number. I think of basketball players. There's a Lakers basketball player named Dalton Connect, and his jersey says "Connect 4".
Tom:
That's good.
Jarvis:
It's fun.
Tom:
That's good.
Jarvis:
It's fun.
Rowan:
That's it. Everyone, everyone, game's over. He win— He won. He won the game.
Jordan:
Yeah, he cracked it. We take it back.
Rowan:
Don't need to play anymore.
Tom:
Thank you to Alex from Arkansas for this question.
Which children's song starts with the head of an ox, a house, and a camel, and ends with a sickle?
I'll say that again.
Which children's song starts with the head of an ox, a house, and a camel, and ends with a sickle?
Jordan:
(muttering) ♪ S Club ♪
SFX:
(Tom and Rowan laugh)
Jordan:
♪ We're gonna have a— ♪
Jarvis:
Ain't no party like the head of an ox.
Jordan:
Wait, I'm remembering— (laughs) That was so strange.
Rowan:
Okay, well that's hieroglyphics, I'm assuming.
Jordan:
Ooh, sickle, Grim Reaper. Hi-yah.
Jarvis:
What's the one that's... "Pocketful of poseys, ashes, ashes, They all fall down"?
Tom:
"Ring a Ring o' Roses."
Rowan:
Yeah, "Ring o' Roses".
Jordan:
"Ring Around the Rosies".
Rowan:
Oxey, oxey, house, camel. Yeah.
Tom:
(laughs)
Jordan:
Yeah. You know, it's actually, a lot of people dunno this. That's a metaphor for having a house and a camel.
Jarvis:
There's an— Is "Olly olly oxen free" in a song?
Jordan:
I found myself defaulting to nursery rhyme. But it may not be a nursery rhyme.
Rowan:
It could be "Baby Shark".
Jordan:
It could be "Baby Shark".
Jarvis:
Yeah, it could be "Baby Shark".
Rowan:
Is "Baby Shark" the answer, Tom? Is it "Baby Shark"?
Tom:
It's not. I'll... To avoid any parents who are starting to have flashbacks... I'll just move us on from that and say no, absolutely not.
Jordan:
You should play it on the show a little bit.
Tom:
(laughs)
Rowan:
(snickers) Yeah.
Jarvis:
That does start and end with "Baby shark, do, do-do-do, do-do."
Tom:
And not head of an ox, house, and a camel.
Jordan:
What does the ox say?
Rowan:
Hmm.
Jordan:
Do-do-ox, scythe-scythe-scythe, sickle, wait.
Jarvis:
Wait, okay, wait. So let's think laterally about this. 'Cause I've just been thinking.
Rowan:
(guffaws)
Jarvis:
That's, by the way, that's like the phrase that we always have to say before we give an answer.
SFX:
(group cracks up)
Jordan:
Yeah, it's like, "and also with your spirit".
Rowan:
Yeah. And then we all put our hands in the air, and we Power Rangers into one lateral—
Jarvis:
Yeah. Earth, air, wind, fire! Well, I was thinking about it very linearly, and I was just thinking about lyrics to a song. But in what way could this be... Could we think outside of the box?
Tom:
Yeah, I think it's fair to say that it doesn't start literally with these. They are ancient presentations of something.
Jordan:
I suppose if it's ancient, then... the song isn't going to necessarily rhyme or resonate in English now.
Tom:
Oh, it does now.
Jordan:
Post-translation?
Rowan:
Oh, okay.
Jordan:
They— Oh, okay. So it's still around as a active thing that people sing.
Rowan:
Is it the idea of like, if you were to figure out what the modern day altern— like the modern day... alternative to like the ox head, whatever capo was, that would be the lyrics. It's not necessarily that the song was ancient, and then has been translated.
It's like the equivalent— Like when people do badly described movie plots, you're like, yeah, technically, I guess that's what that movie is.
Tom:
Yep.
Jarvis:
Yeah.
Jordan:
Yeah. Like, purple Josh Brolin makes Chris Hemsworth's week bad.
Rowan:
Yeah, exactly.
Tom:
Yes, but I think, Rowan, you are far more right than you think there. It's not just a bad translation.
Jordan:
Okay. So maybe it's, what, aside from... Not the literal translation. How about the lateral translation? Thinking laterally.
Jarvis:
Whoa.
Jordan:
Trademark symbol.
Rowan:
Wow, wow, wow.
Jarvis:
Let's think laterally about this.
Rowan:
That's so powerful. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jordan:
(imitates mech suit)
Rowan:
(giggles)
Jordan:
I— Is it— What would you represent with... an ox? I'm guessing... kind of just defaulting to how unnecessary, unnecessarily macabre so many children's songs are.
Jarvis:
Right, that's what I'm thinking about too.
Jordan:
But I guess sickle can also just be like, you know, a harvest or trade or craft, you know.
Tom:
Rowan, you said hieroglyphs earlier, and you're making a hand gesture now.
Rowan:
Yeah.
Tom:
To try and figure— How would you draw the head of an ox? How would you represent the head of an ox?
Rowan:
A little, little... Do they have horns? Is that what oxes have?
Jordan:
Hey, it's your ox. You could choose.
Tom:
I would keep going with that hand gesture. That was pretty good.
Rowan:
It's like one of them little, it's got little horns.
Tom:
Yeah.
Rowan:
Anyone do— Everyone— Ev— Anyone do this for a song? Anyone do a song like that?
Tom:
For those not watching in video, it's difficult to describe that as other than looking like both the head of an ox, and... the thing we're looking for.
Rowan:
(forms oval with 2 horns)
Tom:
Yeah, maybe connect those horns at the top.
Rowan:
Maybe.
Tom:
Maybe disconnect
Jordan:
Oh?
Tom:
the bits you've got at the bottom.
Jordan:
Is it
Rowan:
maybe just. Maybe just...
Jordan:
A, B, C?
Tom:
Yes, Jordan. You are absolutely right. Keep talking. So what children's song are we looking for?
Jordan:
Oh man. Probably the ABC song.
Tom:
Yeah, the alphabet song. Spot on.
Jordan:
Oh! (laughs) The ABC song. I forgot the word for the alphabet.
Tom:
Yes. the letter A, or aleph, alpha – that was based on the pictogram for an ox's head. And you accidentally demonstrated that so well, Rowan. B, beth, bet, beta.
Rowan:
You're welcome.
Tom:
That was a house. C, gimel – that was a camel. And zed, zee, zayin – was a weapon like a sickle or a short sword. Those were the very, very early pictograms that over so many years became the modern alphabet. So the kids' song is the alphabet song.
Jordan:
It kind of kept the A pretty solid. That wasn't too big a—
Rowan:
Yeah, yeah.
Jordan:
All the pieces are there, yeah.
Rowan:
Pretty good.
Tom:
I've done, on some podcast, I've ranted about the alphabet song, and that I knew a different version of it when I was a kid, but I can't remember which podcast that was on. Have I told anyone here about that?
Rowan:
No, you did— you— What possible other alphabet could there be, Thomas?
Tom:
This was wherever I grew up. I think it must just have been the—
Jarvis:
(laughs) Wherever it was!
Rowan:
Allegedly that I grew up.
Tom:
Well the reason I mention is, I don't know if this was local or regional or hyper-specific, is that I learned A-B-C-D-E-F-G... H-I-J-K-L-M... N-O-P-Q, R-S-T-U, V-W-X-Y-Z.
Jordan:
N-O-P-Q?
Rowan:
They've changed it. They've changed it. Tom, they have changed it. There's like a new version of doing the alphabet, that is that version.
Tom:
Yes, but that's also wrong!
Rowan:
that they've now done because they— because too many kids don't actually understand the L-M-N-O-P. That is too difficult for a lot of kids. So they have now changed, I dunno whether they've changed it back to your version of it or—
Tom:
No, I remember finding this. It's not that version either.
Rowan:
Oh, it's a different one?
Tom:
The version I got taught... The version I got taught slant-rhymes M and Zed. And it— everything lines up, but anyway. (clears throat)
It's the alphabet song. The answer to the question is the alphabet song.
Jarvis:
The version I learned was like... ♪ Ox head, scythe... ♪
SFX:
(group laughing)
Jarvis:
And that was kind of it. Yeah.
Jordan:
Yeah. You were the— Mesopotamia, right?
Jarvis:
Yeah, that was us.
Tom:
Jordan, we're gonna go to you for your question, please.
Jordan:
Hello, hello. This question has been sent in by Jacob Star.
In Hanna-Barbera cartoons, you'll often see the main cast inside a very small box. When does it appear, and why?
In Hanna-Barbera cartoons, you will often see the main cast inside a very small box. When does it appear, and why?
Rowan:
Okay. This is Flintstones cartoon... company, right?
Jarvis:
Yeah. Or like Tom and Jerry.
Jordan:
Yogi Bear.
Jarvis:
Yogi Bear.
Tom:
Yeah.
Jarvis:
I don't know if Tom and Jerry counts.
Tom:
So I think those were Hanna-Barbera. They're just not— I think that— I think those were made by I think it's Joseph Hanna and William Barbera. I'm not sure on that. I think they were the animators, and then they formed their own company.
Jarvis:
Right, exactly.
Tom:
And Hanna-Barbera is what we know from The Flintstones, The Jetsons, that kind of more limited animation style.
Jarvis:
Yeah, Hanna-Barbera is the production company.
Tom:
Yeah.
Jarvis:
Yeah. But there were, yeah.
Jordan:
All the ones that are... plagiarised from comedians of the era.
Tom:
Right, yeah.
Jordan:
Yeah.
Rowan:
So thinking outside the box...
Jarvis:
Wow.
Rowan:
What do we— Wow, wow. That's pretty powerful.
Yeah, no, I guess if it's— is it the kind of thing where it's in every one, because it's one of the things that's in every one of these cartoons? Like it's a thing that happens before or after a break, within the title sequence, or within the credits? Or is it something that's almost like an Easter egg that appears in all of the cartoons? Because it's not always the same every time, or always in a specific place, but it's like a funny little bit that they show, because they always have a box somewhere within the show?
Jordan:
It is in the... It is related to the— you were correct in that it is in the end credit sequence.
Jarvis:
Yeah, so I was gonna say, if this was like Looney Tunes, they have those concentric circles that then shrink, and they play with them, you know. Like where they're trying to stay within the frame, and then it closes on them.
But I don't know the box version of that.
Tom:
We've previously had a question on Lateral about Hanna-Barbera cartoons all having neck lines. Yogi Bear wears a tie. So does Fred Flintstone. So they can swap out the heads.
So I was trying to think, is this a money saving thing, the same kind of way? When you said "in a small box", I was thinking one of those scenes where it's all very dark, and all you can see is the cartoon eyes blinking, which is a really good way to save money on animation.
Jarvis:
Yeah.
Tom:
But if it's the end credits?
Jordan:
I'd say most people... in alignment with what you're saying, Jarvis, as opposed to the Looney Tunes, like how prevalent it is, most people will not notice this.
Jarvis:
Hmm.
Tom:
Hmm.
Rowan:
Okay. Is it 'cause it's all the way at the end, people have switched off, or it's gone into the next programme before it actually gets to the box bit? Or is it so small or so... unnoticeable, I guess, that's—
Jordan:
The— yes, in the latter. It is a very small box, and it is amongst a pretty... It's pretty crowded. It's not the only thing on screen.
Jarvis:
You see the main cast inside a very small box.
I think going back to Tom's thing about animation cost-saving measures... I wonder if they do a collage of characters that is composited with little boxes of each of the animation cels that are maybe just... I don't know, reused or shrunk down or something.
Tom:
Jordan didn't say characters. Jordan said cast.
Jarvis:
Cast, yeah.
Tom:
That's the humans doing the voices.
Jordan:
I will say... Jarvis, you are correct on assuming... It is the characters. It is the cast within the universe, but...
Tom:
I was thinking it was some credits thing, where technically they had to put the names in the credits, and then so they just shrunk them down and down and down until it was legally okay.
Jordan:
It is tied to... It is a legal tool. This has a legal utility.
Tom:
So it's gonna be the copyright or something like that.
Jarvis:
Yeah, I was gonna say. Is this like a watermark for preventing copying...
Jordan:
You guys, honestly, you've all cracked it.
It's essentially the... a equivalent of a little... a little TM or copyright symbol, but with kind of an even greater amount of specificity.
So, Hanna-Barbera and their licensing partners registered trademarks of the characters using outlined art of the core cast as an ensemble. And then—
Tom:
Yes!
Jordan:
That is plopped right next to "1989, Hanna-Barbera" and the RCA label and the production and outfitting companies and stuff like that. And they're model sheets that would usually be used for size comparison reference for staying on-model and things like that.
Jarvis:
Right.
Tom:
Because if you rip off a Hanna-Barbera cartoon, they can try and get you for copyright, or they can try and get you for trademark abuse or both.
Jordan:
Yeah, yeah.
Tom:
So if you've copied that outline onto something, you are using a trademark, not just copyright infringement.
Jordan:
Yes. And the trademarks are inherently very difficult to see on the— on TVs of that era, because small size, limited resolution, the analogue signal itself is pretty limited.
So really what you're looking at is... to the... I'd say the average viewer that's become so desensitised to seeing copyright symbols at the end and in credits, You would— it would all blur into a single line, because it is, it's bookmarked, or bookended with super generic, company name, "1989 Hanna-Barbera".
And then there is just this tiny little image, same blue and white, but if you look in detail, it's the gang hanging out.
Rowan:
And it, I mean, that ironically kind of does make meta sense in the ca— famously, cartoon characters from that era, the outline of them, the shadow form of them is meant to be unique. That is the thing that people often associate. That's like a marker of good character design within these cartoons.
And so the idea of using the silhouette itself, which is what they're using for the trademark, within another character would be a particularly egregious reuse of that kind of IP.
Jordan:
I do enjoy the idea of somebody stealing the Flintstones.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Tom:
Pretty sure that was a plot of one of the episodes.
Jordan:
Really stop being stolen by the future.
Tom:
Literally there was a Jetsons meet the Flintstones.
Jordan:
Oh, that's right.
Jarvis:
I remember that, yeah.
Tom:
Thanks to Hugh for sending in this question.
In 1956, while test flying a new F-11 Tiger off the coast of New York, a pilot's windshield suddenly shattered, and his engine failed completely. Investigators ruled out a bird strike – the real cause was far stranger. What happened?
One more time.
In 1956, while test flying a new F-11 Tiger off the coast of New York, a pilot's windshield suddenly shattered, and his engine failed completely. Investigators ruled out a bird strike – the real cause was far stranger. What happened?
Jordan:
Big sneeze. Huge.
Tom:
(laughs)
Jordan:
Strong guy, big sneeze.
Jarvis:
The plane had allergies. Yeah, so a bird strike...
SFX:
(others laughing)
Jarvis:
A bird strike is the aviation term for when a bird flies into an engine or something like that.
Tom:
Yes.
Jordan:
Like a Sully style.
Tom:
It is not when the birds stop working to demand better pay.
Jarvis:
Right, exactly, yeah.
Jordan:
The method of seeking guild representation is threatening to blow up every plane.
Tom:
(giggles)
Jordan:
That's a pretty big threat.
Rowan:
So either it's that the thing that is causing it, the strangeness is from that being unusual. So you'd expect birds to be around. But if it was like, it was turtles...
Jordan:
(guffaws)
Rowan:
that crashed into it, that's kind of strange. It's like the thing was stranger that did a similar thing to bird strikes. Or that it's strange that this should happen, like, they just sort of forgot to glue in the windscreen on the test.
Like there's some strange thing, I dunno whether there's, like, I'm thinking there's different directions we could go with. Like, what made it strange?
Jarvis:
Yeah, something being like it's not pressurized properly or something, feels very... normal plane stuff.
Tom:
Yeah.
Jarvis:
Mainstream. And so I'm like...
Rowan:
We've gotta get more alternative with it.
Jarvis:
Yeah, did the engine fall off and then hit the windshield?
Jordan:
(giggles)
Tom:
Ooh.
Jordan:
How embarrassing.
Jarvis:
No, Jarvis, but...
Tom:
surprisingly a little closer than you might think.
Jarvis:
Okay.
Rowan:
Did the windscreen fall off and hit the engine?
Tom:
If you just start guessing parts of an aircraft, you won't quite get this. but you are—
Rowan:
(giggles) Okay.
Tom:
You are closer than you might think.
Jordan:
Was the pilot accidentally flying from the outside of the plane?
Tom:
(laughs)
Jordan:
And so, when you know, he's like, "oh, butterfingers", tries— has to take the windscreen off to get the controls. And that's like, they don't even do that in Top Gun.
Tom:
You wouldn't wanna do that in an F-11 Tiger.
Jordan:
It's not gonna be ludicrously fast because of the era, but this is post... World War II innovation on... jet combat. I don't know that point.
Tom:
Yes.
Jordan:
Is it a—
Jarvis:
We've broken the sound barrier at this point, right?
Tom:
That is key. This is Grumman's first supersonic jet fighter, the F-11 Tiger.
Jarvis:
So is—
Tom:
And jet fighter.
Jarvis:
Jet fighter.
Jordan:
So they did have to investigate. It wasn't something like, it's riddled with bullets. So clearly there was some kind of combat.
Jarvis:
Fighter is interesting specification. 'Cause where I was gonna go – lemme just get this out, maybe it's wrong – is something about the resonance or of going... breaking the sound barrier. A sonic boom or something could cause... The sonic boom, it wasn't prepared for... the shock waves, and then the shock waves caused it.
Jordan:
I think the speed is it. It's a fighter, and so it was meant to test its guns. And the— it was traveling faster than the bullet velocity.
Tom:
Yes, it was!
Jarvis:
Oh, yeah!
Jordan:
So it fires out, and just straight back into— (wheezes)
Rowan:
No! Oh no!
Jarvis:
That's so funny.
Jordan:
(laughs) That's so bad! Oh my god.
Jarvis:
That's so funny.
Rowan:
Oh no.
Tom:
It was a little more complicated than that, but I'm absolutely giving it to you, yes.
This was test pilot Lieutenant Thomas Attridge. He fired a four-second burst from the 20mm cannons towards the ocean surface, and then descended rapidly along his flight path at near supersonic speed. The cannon shells slowed down 'cause of air resistance. The Tiger caught up.
And when you said riddled with bullets, Jordan. Yeah! It was—
Jordan:
Yeah, right.
Tom:
It became known as the plane that shot itself down.
SFX:
(guests crack up)
Jarvis:
That's hilarious.
Rowan:
Oh no.
Tom:
Attridge was fine, by the way. He crash landed, but he was— he survived the accident with injuries. He returned to flying.
Jordan:
I don't think I'd wanna survive. I'd be so humiliated.
Rowan:
Oh no.
SFX:
(Tom and Jordan wheeze)
Tom:
The bullets struck the windshield, pierced the airframe damaged the engine, caused total power failure.
Jordan:
There are not enough thumb screws in the world to get that story out of me. I would be like, I just bumped into like, did you know a new war started? We actually— It actually just started.
Jarvis:
Yeah, I think aliens, it was, actually.
Jordan:
Look out. They're in the sea.
Rowan:
It was so crazy. The fish were coming with guns. I didn't even know. I was just— I was flying a normal non-fighter plane.
Jordan:
Don't worry guys. I killed all of them. So don't look into it. They're all gone, and it's all set.
Tom:
It tends to be quite difficult to lie to the air accident investigation branch.
Jordan:
(snickers)
Tom:
They tend to be quite good at figuring these things out.
Jordan:
Yeah, they're so good at plane stuff.
Rowan:
I really want anyone who is watching this to watch Tom's face as Jordan said the phrase, "riddled with bullets". It was one of the funniest, it was like if you looked to dictionary definition of the opposite of a poker face. That was what Tom was doing in that moment, and it was very funny to watch.
Tom:
Jarvis, it's your question. Whenever you're ready, please.
Jarvis:
This question has been sent in by anonymous.
Opened in 2021, the Kazungula Bridge was the first direct connection between Zambia and Botswana that didn't require a ferry. Why is the bridge curved, even though a straight bridge would've been shorter and cheaper?
Opened in 2021, the Kazungula Bridge was the first direct connection between Zambia and Botswana that didn't require a ferry. Why is the bridge curved, even though a straight bridge would've been shorter and cheaper?
Jordan:
Bit of fun, isn't it?
Rowan:
I think I actually know this one, so...
Tom:
Okay.
Rowan:
I might have to bow out. At least until I definitely know whether I do know the right answer.
Tom:
I have a... guess... But I've already suddenly got one question in this one.
Jarvis:
(snickers)
Tom:
Alright, no. I'm gonna go for it.
Jarvis:
Okay.
Tom:
Is it near a famous waterfall? 'Cause I'm thinking that it's at Horseshoe Falls. It's not gonna be Angel Falls. It's gonna be something, some big famous waterfall. And while technically the best route is over the falls, that would ruin the falls. So they put a curve 'round there.
Jarvis:
That is not. There's no waterfall
Tom:
Okay, okay, alright.
Jarvis:
to be seen here, to my knowledge.
Jordan:
Okay. What is— Is it, I guess in that vein, did they do this to preserve some kind of national tourist attraction, something, that they— it wasn't like a logistical requirement, but they didn't want to... screw up some good thing they had.
Jarvis:
No, this is not to avoid... some sort of attraction or nat— like a waterfall or any other sort of thing. That's not why they curved the bridge.
Tom:
Okay. Zambia and Botswana. I...
Jarvis:
If you were a GeoGuessr right now.
Tom:
Yeah, I started saying that and realized, I know very little about either of those countries.
Jordan:
It's good to— It's like you're manifesting. You're seeking the inspiration. You're in your mind palace again, with the corkboard.
Tom:
(cackles)
Jordan:
What is the killer's motivations?
Jarvis:
Since it probably won't help anyway, I'll give you the clue that this is a normal bridge over the Zambezi River.
Jordan:
Oh, it's not a normal bridge. It's weird.
SFX:
(Tom and Jordan laugh)
Jordan:
It's-a wonky.
Tom:
I was gonna phrase this, it's got a wonk in it, which I don't think is how that word works, but...
Jordan:
It's a real wonker.
Tom:
(chuckles)
Jarvis:
You guys sound like you've never seen a curved bridge before.
Jordan:
(chuckles)
Tom:
Also, it's on a border. So there's gotta be customs controls and... I don't like how Rowan nodded during that!
Rowan:
It is on a border!
Tom:
It is on a border!
Jarvis:
It is on a border!
Jordan:
It's the border of the place.
Tom:
Customs and passport checks. Do they happen on the bridge?
Jarvis:
No. Not to my knowledge.
Jordan:
Is there a legal distinction between what they would be allowed to do at that part of the water? Like, the moment they hit that point, you're not allowed to smoke in your car or something?
Tom:
Oh, Zambia only allows bridges that are strictly east–west or north–south.
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Jarvis:
It's funny because... there is a legal reason that it's not straight, but it's not... It would be lateral of me to say that it's a legal reason.
Tom:
Okay.
Jarvis:
So I'm being a little cute when I say that.
Rowan:
From Jarvis saying this, I, yeah, 1000% know what this bridge is. So I'm gonna hush up.
Tom:
(cracks up) Dammit.
Jordan:
Me too. Yeah, no. I just don't wanna mess with...
Jarvis:
Right, you just don't wanna ruin it.
Jordan:
Zambia, you said.
Jarvis:
Mhm, yeah.
Jordan:
Right, right, right.
Tom:
Why would you curve a bridge over a river that's a border? Has the river moved? That happens a lot. There are plenty of borders in the world, which follow the river and follow the river's movement. But there are also borders that were laid down in law. And as the river moves, the borders do not.
So maybe the bridge has to— But why would you not just build a straight bridge anyway?
Jarvis:
Right. So I will say that the border between these countries of Zambia and Botswana is only 150 meters.
Jordan:
There's no intersection with another country, is there?
Tom:
It's nearly a tri-point, but it isn't.
Jordan:
There's some— if they would cross it directly, it would also—
Tom:
They would go into a third country.
Jordan:
Ohhh! And we— And I know geography well enough. Let's think about it. Africa, Africa, Africa,
Jarvis:
Those are the three countries.
Jordan:
(wheezes) Is it my dad's house in Nairobi?
Jarvis:
I'm gonna guess Namibia. Well, Namibia is there. And Namibia is actually to the west. So you're in the right geographical area, but... you are also right in that this is a diplomatic solution.
Tom:
So the only way that they can avoid the third country is to put a curve in the bridge?
Jarvis:
That's right.
Tom:
(deflates)
Jordan:
That's gotta feel bad for the other country.
SFX:
(guys laughing)
Jordan:
It's gotta feel— "We don't like you, man."
Jarvis:
Yeah, they went out of their way to avoid me. Nobody wants to hang out anymore.
Jordan:
That's truly like... inviting somebody's roommate to a party, and they'd be like, "Don't tell 'em about it."
Tom:
So does Zambia and Botswana, do they only have like a 150-metre border?
Rowan:
It's Zimbabwe, right? It's the other country that they have to avoid.
Jordan:
if I'm remembering it right.
Jarvis:
It is, it is, yeah. Yes, that's correct.
Rowan:
And then Namibia's like just there.
Tom:
(cracks up) Right, okay.
Jarvis:
Namibia is just there. And then Botswana and Zimbabwe are right next to each other. And if you were to draw a straight line... across this border between Zambia and Botswana, it would cross into Zimbabwe. So they curve ever so slightly to avoid Zimbabwe.
Jordan:
"Oh, pardon me. Sorry. Just..."
Jarvis:
Yep, just if you don't mind a little scooch.
Jordan:
Oh, thank you for the dance, anyway.
Jarvis:
Yeah. (snickers)
Jordan:
it's very polite of them.
Jarvis:
The border between Botswana and Zambia is only about 150 meters in length. So any bridge between the two countries has to be at this one spot. But due to the geography of the area, the shortest possible bridge across that border is curved. A straight bridge would be cheaper to construct, but would've gone through Zimbabwe, and they didn't want to involve a third country.
Jordan:
That's gotta genuinely be so strange for Zimbabwe. Just be like, "Wait, where'd the bridge come from? Why is it all wonky?" Like, "Ah, no reason. Don't worry about it."
Tom:
Which means there is only one question left, and it's the one I asked at the start.
Thank you to both Brian and Ayasa for sending this in.
And Rowan, your face did light up when I said this, so perhaps hold back for just a moment. For what purpose does Disney use colors called go away called 'Go Away Green' and 'Blending Blue'?
On the assumption that Rowan, who is giggling, already knows this, Jarvis or Jordan, do you wanna take a shot at that before Rowan tells the audience?
Jarvis:
'Go Away Green' made me think of Monsters, Inc.
Jordan:
(chuckles) Wait, is it Disney... Disneyland?
Tom:
Yeah, this is at the theme parks.
Jordan:
Okay.
Jarvis:
Ohhh. So 'Go Away Green'—
Jordan:
We could take a real quick drive to Anaheim and just check this out.
Jarvis:
Yeah, I mean, it's like they've psychologically engineered colors that they use to disincentivize people from entering certain areas, and incentivize people in going along the path that they want them to.
Tom:
Kind of. It's not necessarily entering areas.
Jarvis:
Mm.
Tom:
Rowan, do you wanna kick it home?
Rowan:
I was gonna say, it literally is to stop people noticing things.
So often on the backside, because the parks, the way they're oriented, you'll have, you know, the front of a beautiful setpiece. But the back, they don't necessarily want to do the back 'cause no one's technically needing to look at it. And so they'll paint it these colours that are meant to blend in with the kind of average colours of the foliage and sky within these particular parks.
Tom:
Yep.
Rowan:
And it's so wild when you look at examples because you'll suddenly realise there's just a massive electrical unit and a water tower that you've never seen before, because it's just painted this magical colour.
And you're like, oh yeah! And it's like, yeah, this is the back of Big Thunder Mountain. Don't even question it. Don't worry about it.
Jarvis:
Rowan, I didn't notice before, but I do think that you're wearing a sweater that's Go Away Green, and you have hair that's—
Tom:
(laughs)
Rowan:
You haven't seen me this whole time.
Jarvis:
Yeah, I actually have just been seeing a floating face this whole time.
Rowan:
This is what's so, so funny about this is, my dad accidentally, not knowing this, chose this exact colour green paint, because, and he said to me, "I'm gonna paint the fence in the garden this colour, because I really feel like it blends in." And I had to be like, "Are you Walt Disney? They froze him, and he became my dad?"
Tom:
(laughs)
Rowan:
How did this happen?
Jarvis:
That's incredible.
Jordan:
Father Imagineer.
Rowan:
I know, right?
Tom:
Thank you very much to all of our players for running the gauntlet one more time.
Where can people find you? What's going on in your lives?
We'll start with Rowan.
Rowan:
Yeah, you can find me online. Just search Rowan Ellis. I'll be there. I have a bunch of videos come up, including one around the politics of rest. So, everyone go have a snooze after this. You deserve it.
Tom:
We all do. Jordan.
Jordan:
Hello. Sad Boyz podcast, Sad Boyz with a Z. Don't mess it up, or we'll be angry.
Tom:
(giggles)
Jordan:
It's the motto. And then also my channel, Jordan Adika, A-D-I-K-A. You can say it however you want, I don't care.
Tom:
(laughs) And Jarvis.
Jarvis:
You can find me in the woods behind your house painted in Go Ahead Blue.
SFX:
(others giggling)
Jarvis:
You can also find me on the Sad Boyz podcast and on YouTube, if you just search Jarvis Johnson or Jarvis Johnson Gold, I'll pop up.
Tom:
And if you wanna know more about this show, you can do that at lateralcast.com where you can also send in your own ideas for questions. We are at @lateralcast basically everywhere, and there are weekly video episodes on Spotify.
Thank you very much to Jarvis Johnson.
Jarvis:
Bye-bye.
Tom:
To— He said I could say it however I wanted. Jordan Ahh-dee-kaah!
Jordan:
Finally, someone gets it. Thank you, Tom.
SFX:
(group giggling)
Tom:
And Rowan Ellis.
Rowan:
Thanks.
Tom:
I've been Tom Scott, and that's been Lateral.
Episode Credits
| HOST | Tom Scott |
| QUESTION PRODUCER | David Bodycombe |
| EDITED BY | Julie Hassett at The Podcast Studios, Dublin |
| MUSIC | Karl-Ola Kjellholm ('Private Detective'/'Agrumes', courtesy of epidemicsound.com) |
| ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS | Rex S., Jacob Star, Bryan, Ayasa, Alex, Hugh |
| FORMAT | Pad 26 Limited/Labyrinth Games Ltd |
| EXECUTIVE PRODUCERS | David Bodycombe and Tom Scott |