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Episode 187: The lion and the poet
8th May, 2026 • Matt Gray, Rowan Ellis and Verity Babbs face questions about pervasive players, biscuit barrels and foreign flags.
Transcription by Caption+
Tom:
Although he retired in 1974, Hall of Famer Jerry West has appeared on every NBA team since 1969. How? The answer to that at the end of the show. My name's Tom Scott, and this is Lateral. Welcome to Lateral, which your podcast app has very confidently categorised under "comedy". This feels bold. Yes, there are jokes. But there are also long pauses, confused guessing, and the occasional moment where someone earnestly explains a fact about pigeons. So if you came here expecting tight punchlines and perfectly structured humour, I fear the comedy label may count as false advertising. But we're gonna do our best! And today's guests have agreed to help maintain the illusion that this is in fact intentional comedy. First we have... I have to go to you first, Verity, because I know this is not what you're on here for, but I know you are in an improv group with previous Lateral contestant Sophie Ward. So, please welcome to the show for the very first time, Verity Babbs.
Verity:
Hello! Thanks for having me.
Tom:
As you're here for the first time, we should do the blatant plug. Tell me about the book.
Verity:
The book is about being friends with Sophie Ward.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Verity:
And a lifelong obsession with her. No, the book came out in October. It's called The History of Art in One Sentence. So I'm an art historian who I hope is at least mildly amusing. So it's a sort of funny whistle-stop tour through 500 years of art history, of artists behaving badly, basically.
Tom:
And I have to ask, because every time we get a new player on, have you heard Lateral before? You know what you're in for today?
Verity:
I've done my revision. I've done my revision.
Tom:
Well, very best of luck to you on the show today. We're joined by two returning players. First of all, video essayist on... I think it was sociology and society. I can't remember how you phrased it last time. Rowan Ellis, welcome back to the show.
Rowan:
Hello! It's so exciting to be back. Thank you for having me again.
Tom:
What have you been working on recently?
Rowan:
What a great question.
Tom:
(chuckles)
Rowan:
I'm currently— I just worked on a video essay about the ethics of like AI and empathy, that was tentatively titled, "Would You Kick a Robot Dog?" Which is a question that I now love to ask everyone that I ever encounter, because the answers are very, very fun. And currently working on a video about moral panics, which is, you know, just two real gut punches to the psyche in a row.
Tom:
(chuckles) Would you kick a robot dog?
Rowan:
Yeah, 100%.
Tom:
Okay.
Rowan:
After working on this video, I'm— as I think I say in the video, I would punt that hound right into the Sun, is what I concluded.
SFX:
(Matt and Tom wheeze)
Tom:
Also joining us today... Nope, I got— Good, we've got the comedy label going. This is fine.
Rowan:
(cackles)
Tom:
Because collapsing out of their chair, please welcome to the show, Matt Gray.
Matt:
Hello! I would also be a robot hound punter.
SFX:
(Matt and Tom giggle)
Matt:
Wait, punters to mean a crowd means people that kick. But the people that kick are on the pitch.
Tom:
Oh, yeah. I mean, punter also means someone who bets on something.
Matt:
Oh.
Rowan:
I think it'd be really fun if every single question this episode was accidentally about the etymology of 'punt' and things like that. This all became crazily relevant throughout the episode.
Tom:
There are a lot of meanings of that word, and I only just realised that. Anyway Matt, the last time I saw you, you were plugging a kettle into a public car charger.
Matt:
(giggles deeply) Yes. I've just had a video go up this week, where I convert an electric car charger into something I can use with my electric bike. That way when I've cycled to the end of my battery, I don't have to lug it on a train home. But to test it, I couldn't be asked to carry my bike the whole way to a lamppost charger. So I did try it with a kettle, which was... intriguing.
Tom:
(chuckles)
Matt:
(giggles)
Tom:
Very best of luck to all three of you on the show today. It's time to start today's comedy of errors. We'll test the genre classification immediately with question one. Thank you to Jordan Cook-Irwin for this question. What is the similarity between the Big Bang, the Tories, Cubism, and the Quakers? I'll give you that one more time. What is the similarity between the Big Bang, the Tories, Cubism, and the Quakers?
Verity:
This is almost the ideal question for me as an art historian and a Quaker, but not a Tory.
SFX:
(others giggling)
Verity:
And not involved...
Rowan:
The Big Bang.
Verity:
...in the Big Bang. But almost half. Two outta four ain't bad.
Tom:
(laughs)
Matt:
Well, I am aware of the Big Bang. Of Tories, of Cubism, and of Quakers, and—
Rowan:
Oh, that's it. That's the answer. Matt's aware of them. That's—
Tom:
Thank you, alright! We'll move on to question two!
Rowan:
There we go.
Matt:
I know there's a whole thing about Quakers not speaking much, but I'd have to say that the Tories are certified yappers.
Verity:
(blurts laugh)
Matt:
That's a difference.
Tom:
Very, very Gen Z little slang going in there, Matt.
Matt:
(giggles) Yes.
Rowan:
Whoa, hang on, remind me again. It's the Big Bang, Tories, Quakers and...
Tom:
Cubism.
Rowan:
Cubism.
Matt:
Which is... an art style where everything looks a bit odd and mixed up sometimes, and with perspectives, as I understand it.
Tom:
I mean, I'm gonna ask the art historian for a definition there.
SFX:
(group chuckles)
Verity:
Yeah.
Rowan:
What is the cubism?
Verity:
So, cubism was invented by Picasso and Georges Braque. And they were basically like super, super besties. And then they fell out and never spoke about it again. So, so maybe there's something here about lovers' tiffs. But fundamentally, with Cubism, you can see the same thing from multiple perspectives at one time, so... Which is why it all looks a bit blobby, but... Cubism?
Matt:
Maybe they all started in France.
Rowan:
(laughs heartily) Notoriously, the Big Bang.
Matt:
It's got French energy. (giggles) It's the centre of everything.
Tom:
(laughs)
SFX:
(Matt and Rowan wheeze)
Tom:
Technically it should be called Le Grande Bang, but...
Rowan:
Ah!
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Matt:
Le Grand Pouf.
Tom:
Thank you. I was really hoping that someone would come up with a translat— Because I started that sentence, and by the time I got to the end of it, I didn't have the French word for 'bang'.
SFX:
(Verity and Rowan giggle)
Rowan:
So I know obviously the Tories is not... I'm interested in that phrase as opposed to 'conservatives', because technically it's kind of the same as saying like the GOP for the Republicans. Like it's a nickname or it's another name for it. And so I'm wondering if this is kind of like a suffragette style thing where... it's not the original name for the thing. It got named by someone who was in opposition to it, or named as a nickname that wasn't meant to be good. And then they were like, "I guess this is us now."
Tom:
Yes. Yes.
Rowan:
Oh.
SFX:
(group laughs heartily)
Tom:
Do you wanna talk more about the— Do we start with the Tories there?
Rowan:
I'm not gonna lie to you, Tom. I truly don't know. This wasn't like, I knew that that was true for one of them, and so I extrapolated. I truly didn't know that was true for any of them. But I was like, I just know that this is maybe something that wasn't, 'cause the big bang also, it's not necessarily like an officious sounding thing for quite an important theory. So yeah, that was just a guess into the darkness that turned out to be correct.
Tom:
The 'Big Bang' was popularised by astronomer Fred Hoyle on BBC Radio in 1949. He was sceptical about it. He thought it sounded ridiculous. Thank you, Producer David. The Big Bang in French is 'Le Big Bang'.
Rowan:
Thank you.
Matt:
Never!
Rowan:
Thank you so much.
Tom:
Or alternatively, 'Le Grande Explosion'. But 'Le Big Bang' is what people use. You mentioned Georges Braque, Verity, who is in my notes here.
Verity:
Yeah.
Tom:
I also have Louis Vauxcelles.
Verity:
Yeah, so he basically... he was a writer, and then he basically named loads of art movements being like, "I think this is no good." And then they were like, "I like the name 'no good'. We'll use that." So he's all over the place.
Tom:
Yeah, and that's what happened with Cubism. 'Tory' was originally... I mean, it says in my notes, it's a 'slur', which I feel is a strong term to use. But it comes from the Irish 'tóraidhe', which I'm probably mispronouncing, for outlaw or robber. And—
Matt:
Oh, it's quite accurate then.
Tom:
(cackles) And 'Quaker', I'm gonna ask the Quaker, do you know where that name came from?
Verity:
Well, it used to— back in the 17th century, when the Quakers were founded by George Fox. And the idea is that you sort of, you're having a think, and then maybe you'll sort of have some sort of revelation about the way we live and the world we live in, which can cause you to basically have a bit of a flutter. So I imagine it was a slightly eye-rolly, "All of this quaking they're doing. Oh."
Tom:
Yep. Quaking or trembling in a religious context. Absolutely right, Rowan, out of nowhere, congratulations. They all came from derisive nicknames. Each of our guests has brought a question along with them. Rowan, after that solve, I think it's gotta be over to you.
Rowan:
This question has been sent in by Joel Haydon. In 2012, a token is taken out of a biscuit tin near the Beehive in Wellington, New Zealand. The following year, Lynley and Ally get married. How are these events connected? I'll read it again. In 2012, a token is taken out of a biscuit tin near the Beehive in Wellington, New Zealand. The following year, Lynley and Ally get married. How are these events connected?
Matt:
Is that Lily and Ally?
Rowan:
Lynley.
Matt:
Lynley?
Verity:
Lily Allen.
SFX:
(Tom and Matt laugh)
Verity:
Just trying to think of what kind of— A token out of a biscuit tin. So is it a token that was meant to be there? Like a winner... winner... find a golden biscuit in a biscuit tin kind of situation?
Matt:
But why was the biscuit tin in or near a beehive?
Tom:
That bit I can clue you in for. 'Cause I've been to the Beehive in New Zealand.
Matt:
Is it not a beehive?
Tom:
It is the nickname for the parliament building in Wellington.
Verity:
Ooh.
Matt:
Oh.
Verity:
So is it a sort of lucky "find an engagement ring in a pack of biscuits" vibe?
Rowan:
I can say no to that one.
Verity:
Okay.
Rowan:
I think the idea of, you know, this wasn't a... a surprise to be finding something in the biscuit tin.
Matt:
I'm wondering, let's say, it sounds like these two events are connected, tenuously, let's say laterally... but not necessarily directly related. Now, do all biscuit tins in New Zealand have tokens?
Tom:
I've got this vague memory of... I never did the tour of the parliament building. I was in Wellington for a good few days, didn't do the tourism, didn't go, and I just have this vague memory of biscuit tin being something important to legal stuff in New Zealand. It's— But I— (growls) It's flailing around somewhere in my head.
Verity:
Is that how they do— all marriages in New Zealand have to be like, it's like a "draw a wife from a..."
Tom:
(guffaws)
Verity:
"Oh, it's Lindsay." You know, like they find out through the— Is it some kind of like a—
Matt:
A marriage tombola?
Verity:
Yeah, oh! That'd be so nice!
SFX:
(group laughing)
Rowan:
Imagine if it was yes. Imagine if I was like, yeah, no, that's exactly right. Every single one is like a married at first sight lottery.
Tom:
Ever since same-sex marriage came in, it's become really awkward, because now people are getting matched up in all sorts of ways with the tombola. It's a complete nightmare.
Matt:
(snickers)
Verity:
That's what people who were against gay marriage were like, "It'll ruin the tombola. We can't do it."
Tom:
(cackles)
Matt:
Won't somebody please think of the biscuit tin!
Verity:
Come on.
Tom:
(giggles)
Rowan:
So here's an interesting thing, Tom, is that through your A+ first grade comedy, you have actually stumbled upon a relevant element to this question.
Tom:
Okay, so Lyn— What were the names again?
Rowan:
Lynley and Ally.
Tom:
And you said this was 2012?
Matt:
Aah. Okay, so I'm wondering if tokens and biscuit tins are something to do with approval of laws and bills, and Lynley and Ally might've been the first gay marriage.
Rowan:
That is exactly, exactly correct.
Tom:
Yay.
Matt:
Yay.
Verity:
Very good.
Rowan:
So the biscuit tin is something that is used a lot in that it is the method through which private member bills are drawn randomly. And the bill that was drawn was to let kind of gay marriage law be legalised. And so Lynley Bendall and Ally Wanikau made their vows on a plane, a special flight between Queenstown and Wellington in a ceremony that... My favourite thing about some of these questions is truly the context that gets given for the answers by the wonderful people who send them in.
Tom:
(chuckles)
Rowan:
And the piece of context that they've given is that it was attended by Modern Family actor Jesse Tyler Ferguson. And I just think that's so perfect. So there were actually 30 other couples got married on the same day. It was the 19th of August in 2013. It's this biscuit tin, an ordinary biscuit tin, but it's filled with numbered bingo tokens. And when there's a time for a member's bill to be debated in the New Zealand Parliament, that associated bill gets a first reading in the house. Like it get— they get picked out of the biscuit tin.
Matt:
And I bet that's not the first time a relationship started with drawing a private member and ended in marriage.
Rowan:
Wow. Wow.
Tom:
Ohhh.
Rowan:
Snaps for you. Wow.
Matt:
(laughs uproariously)
Tom:
Thank you to Charlie Brodersen for this next question. Jason visits an international event. Upon arriving, he changes his clothes so that people can understand him more easily. Why? One more time. Jason visits an international event. Upon arriving, he changes his clothes so that people can understand him more easily. Why?
Rowan:
Okay. So my first instinct is: International event, it's a language thing. And potentially it's to do with, the clothes are like some kind of cultural clothes, or have some indicator of like, language that he might be speaking, or dialect that he might be speaking, in order for people to clock on exactly what's going on. But I dunno if that would make them understand him better. It might just immediately make the language more apparent. So it's... And that doesn't necessarily make sense.
Matt:
I was thinking similar, because... English and Dutch can sound very similar if you don't know which one you're listening to. So if you're going to somewhere that isn't either, then if he was to dress in a top hat, people know to look— listen for English. If he was to dress in... think of a stereotype here.
Tom:
Bright orange, Matt. Bright orange.
Matt:
Bright orange. There we go. Yeah. I was trying to think of the name of the flower actually, but...
Rowan:
Some tulips.
Matt:
Tulips, that's the one. Yeah, tulips and bright orange. Then they would just assume it was Dutch.
Tom:
Not my joke, but you know, thank you to the Netherlands for being obvious in every international competition. Red, white, and blue. Is it the US? The UK? Slovenia? Russia? It's the Netherlands. They're in bright orange.
Rowan:
Mhm.
Verity:
I wonder whether it might be noisy clothes. Like if he's at a, like is he a Morris dancer? Like if he's covered in bells? And just has to take 'em off.
Matt:
Ah yeah, so understanding would mean, "Oh god, it's one of them." And everyone could run away.
SFX:
(Tom and Verity crack up)
Rowan:
Maybe the clothes have printed on it... his diary entries, so that people can understand him better. That they get what's in his soul. And they're like, "Wow, okay. That's really beautiful. I kind of get you now."
Tom:
I did once meet someone who went to a conference with a write-on T-shirt. So just for the initial questions that were like, "Who are you? What do you do?" Everything like that, he just scrawled it on. Could he have given out business cards? Yes, but that was a talking point, and that's what he was trying to do.
Verity:
I was, the other day, I was doing a tour around a gallery with Mr Doodle, who's the guy online who doodles all the things. And he was stopped near constantly. And I was telling people that— or he's being stopped all the time by fans. They're like, how do they know it's him? It's because he's wearing a head-to-toe doodle outfit. He's not shying away from the attention, you know.
Matt:
Isn't it like a full suit with shirt and everything doodled, and a hat that's doodled, or something like that?
Verity:
It was like a windbreaker and trousers and shoes.
Matt:
(giggles)
Verity:
It was a look.
Tom:
That's good though! He's not gonna get recognised out of costume, is he?
Verity:
But how convenient to have a brand that works on clothes. You know, that it's like, "I do drawings. I'll draw on the clothes." It's harder for like a mathematician, I guess.
Tom:
Mhm.
Matt:
I suppose it's like when you're invisible, when you're not wearing red, Tom.
Tom:
Ah, if only, if only.
Matt:
(giggles) So, another option, if he's changing his clothes, is it to understand the situation? Is it one of those "I'm with stupid" T-shirts?
SFX:
(others laughing)
Tom:
Rowan, actually going along the right lines quite early there. It's definitely to do with language.
Matt:
So is it traditional clothes? Is he wearing like a dishdashah, or like Norwegian Sámi dress, or something cultural, so then they can tell which of a varied but similar region he's from? He's called Jason.
Tom:
He's called Jason.
Matt:
Is he wearing Argonauts merch?
Tom:
(laughs)
Rowan:
(giggles)
Tom:
Not relevant. I believe this is a specific Jason. But in this case, it's not one you'd know.
Verity:
It's— So he's taking his clothes off.
Tom:
Oh no, he's just changing his clothes.
Verity:
Oh. So I was like, he's just taken them off to be better understood.
Tom:
(laughs)
Verity:
In which case I thought maybe it was tattoos.
Tom:
Oh?
Verity:
And then it might have been Jason Momoa.
Matt:
Ahh.
Rowan:
Who I have actually seen at a conference, not on purpose. The YA Conference happens at the same time as Comic Con in London, and they use the YA Conference to get celebrities through, and Jason Momoa had to interrupt a bunch of panels just to go through a back door. And every time, the first time, it was like, "Oh my god, Jason Momoa." And by the end, everyone was like, "Jason, come and be on the panel. Don't be shy. We know— You're always here. Come and join us." And he was like, "I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry." He was very cute.
Tom:
YA is young adult literature?
Rowan:
Yeah. Young adult literature is, yeah. I was wondering whether, is this— Okay, first question, clarifying question. Is this that he swaps one time, or is it like cons— he's having to swap multiple times?
Tom:
No, just when he arrives.
Rowan:
Okay. And my second thing is international event. Does that... Is that just that it's somewhere where he isn't native to, or is it that it's an event where there's gonna be multiple languages being spoken?
Tom:
Weirdly, the international part isn't actually that relevant to the answer. It didn't have to be international for this. But it did help you clue in very early on languages. I think that's why it was in the question.
Matt:
Okay. So the dress is a language signifier.
Tom:
Signifier is probably not the right word there.
Rowan:
It could be less that it's like a cultural dress, and more that it's something kind of like the Mr Doodle thing, where it's like a T-shirt that has QR codes that you scan, to get to like a English to whatever your language is translator app or something. It's something that's like a technology or something that isn't— the cultural dress isn't the thing, but it's written on where it's like, you know, "hello" in different languages, or how to ask questions, or something that indicates or makes it easier for someone to conduct the conversation.
Matt:
Or along those lines, a T-shirt that just says like a disability. Like, "I'm deaf" or "I'm blind".
Tom:
Very close there, Matt.
Rowan:
I was thinking about whether there was any kind of sign language indicators on there.
Tom:
Rowan, keep going.
Rowan:
I was... Indicators on...
Matt:
Which sign language, BSL versus ASL versus...
Tom:
Wouldn't matter for this.
Matt:
Oh, he's blind. (belly laughs)
Tom:
You know what? I think that— I think I'm gonna give it to you. Between all of you there, I think you've got close enough. Jason is a deaf presenter visiting a European deaf-blind youth camp for a documentary.
Rowan:
Mm.
Tom:
Many deaf-blind people are not completely blind. They still rely on visual signing. So what is Jason changing about his clothes?
Rowan:
Oh, is it so that they can see his hands easier? Like the contrast between the T-shirt and his hands is clearer?
Tom:
Yes, spot on. It is changing into a dark shirt. Because he has light skin – it'd be the other way around if he had dark skin – to contrast between his hands and his clothing, so that a deaf-blind audience has better chance of making out what he's saying.
Verity:
I love that you said that you were gonna share the points among us for having worked together, whereas all I got was he's a tattooed Morris dancer.
SFX:
(others laugh heartily)
Verity:
So well done, Matt and Rowan, because I'm really sticking to a tattooed Morris dancer.
Matt:
We don't know that he isn't.
Rowan:
I would love— I was gonna say, it turns out, Jason rings in, is like, "Hey, just point of information. I am all of those things."
Verity:
Also.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Tom:
Jason Momoa doing Morris dancing.
Rowan:
I'd pay to see it.
Tom:
Matt, we will go to you for the next question, please.
Matt:
This question has been sent in by Nico. France's flag is the familiar blue-white-red 'tricolore'. Yet when the French president is photographed or filmed, the flag behind them often looks slightly different. What is the difference, and why is it used? France's flag is the familiar blue-white-red 'tricolore'. Yet when the French president is photographed or filmed, the flag behind them often looks slightly different. What is the difference, and why is it used?
Rowan:
Is it because sometimes if you take a picture, or you film stuff, it can get reversed? So they have to make sure it doesn't look like the flag that's the other way? The same like three, but the colour's the other way around, which I'm sure they're... Just knowing the amount of flags that are blue, white, and red, as Tom pointed out earlier, seems like there'll be at least one flag that could be like different reverse inversions of it. So it has a, something in the corner or something, to show that it's... that's the way it's meant to be, and if it's the other way around, it is reversed?
Matt:
It isn't that. So, you are thinking along the right lines vaguely there.
Verity:
Surely they're not going old school and using like the fleur-de-lis they used before the Revolution, and they're like, "Bring back the monarchy." They're like going old school.
Matt:
No, and it's not like an official presidential flag or anything like that.
Verity:
Right.
Tom:
I've got a vague memory that the width of the three stripes on the French flag is not officially one third, one third, one third, or something like that. Or it changes for some reason. I don't know how that relates to filming, or why it would just be the president, but I feel like they're gonna tweak the columns on the flag, or the thirds of the flag somehow.
Matt:
Keep going.
Tom:
That's where my brain runs out. I don't know why you'd do that.
Matt:
You're right.
Verity:
Do they make the white column really broad, because it goes better with outfits? If you're still in front of it?
Tom:
(laughs) Because it's slimming.
Verity:
Yeah, because it's slimming.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Matt:
It's that the white band is really thin. Why would they want that?
Rowan:
Oh, is it something to do with a green stream— green screen style thing nowadays, where if he's in front of just one single colour, it's way easier to edit it into an embarrassing situation in the background?
Tom:
Yeah, that's the only reason Libya changed its flag a few years ago. It used to be completely green. Used to be really embarrassing every single time.
Matt:
I can't tell if that's true, or if you're just being funny.
SFX:
(Tom and Rowan blurt laugh)
Tom:
Sorry, I used my authoritative voice, didn't I? Libya did change its flag from a completely green band. I'm pretty sure that wasn't the reason.
Matt:
(giggles)
Rowan:
I'm also realising, I don't know whether it's coming up or like the— anything for anyone else, but it does look like Tom is in front of a reverse French flag right now.
Tom:
(laughs)
Rowan:
On that left side of you.
Tom:
Yeah, the studio just has a load of stripes in our colours. It's just a very... It's a very strange flag, this one.
Matt:
So Rowan, you were actually quite close at the beginning... when you were saying about being photographed or filmed.
Verity:
Is it like when David Attenborough made the tennis balls bright yellow, because it looks better on TV? Like, does white fundamentally film badly?
Tom:
Sorry, David Attenborough?
Verity:
David Attenborough, when he was in charge of the BBC, was like, everyone used white tennis balls, and he was like, "This is gonna look terrible on telly. Let's make them neon yellow." And that's why tennis balls are yellow.
Tom:
Wow!
Matt:
Would that have been Richard Attenborough?
Tom:
Yeah, but yeah. David Attenborough ran... yeah, I think BBC Two for a while.
Verity:
Yeah, so does white fundamentally film badly?
Matt:
No. All of the colours and the order are the same. It's just the proportions that change.
Tom:
Bleed. If I say the word 'bleed', does that make sense to you, Matt?
Matt:
Not immediately.
Tom:
If you're framing up a shot of the French president... and you have a camera... and what he has is the French flag behind him... if you just put a normal French flag behind him, every single camera operator— Right, you see my background here? You look— you pointed at my background, the 'flag' behind me. There's two orange bars on the outside. Those orange bars keep going for a while, because I won't always frame the camera up the same way. Do they make the blue and the red wider, so that the camera operator doesn't have to risk getting what's behind the flag out of shot, in shot? I'm explaining this really badly, Matt, help me!
Matt:
Yes, you are correct. You are correct. Yes. Although the official flag of France has three equal vertical bands, the version often placed behind the sitting president uses a slimmer central white stripe, typically about one-fifth of the total width instead of one-third. During speeches and photo ops, cameras naturally centre on the president's face. With a standard tricolore, That framing would frequently land almost entirely on the white middle band... making the flag look washed out or even monochrome on screen. By narrowing the white stripe, both the blue and the red edges remain visible in tight shots. And they've been using that design since the 1990s. Which means they were ready for vertical video way before everyone else.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Tom:
Oh yeah, now it's all done vertical. Unfortunately, the French flag is now just blue and red with a single white line down the middle.
Rowan:
Mm.
Matt:
(giggles)
Rowan:
I really enjoyed the fact that it— that there is a clippable moment in that answer, where Tom just goes, "Bleed, Matt. Does that mean anything to you? Bleed, Matthew!"
Tom:
Despite the fact that I work with video, my brain went to print first.
Matt:
Yeah!
Tom:
Like the term, the— To explain that, the term in printing is 'bleed'. You also push the colours outside the margin, just in case it doesn't line up.
Matt:
That's because everything you get printed ends up getting chopped. So then the ink goes to the edge of the paper, rather than printing to the edge of the paper.
Tom:
Thank you to Ben W for this next question. The poem "Lion-Eating Poet in the Stone Den" begins: "Living in a stone den is a poet scholar named Shi, addicted to pork. Having lost his official post, he vowed to eat ten lions." Why is it amusing? I'll say that again. The poem "Lion-Eating Poet in the Stone Den" begins: "Living in a stone den is a poet scholar named Shi, addicted to pork. Having lost his official post, he vowed to eat ten lions." Why is it amusing?
Matt:
So normally, I will write down all the key information from a question. I cannot write down an entire poem.
Tom:
No. And the good news is you don't need to.
Matt:
Yeah.
Verity:
I've got an idea. Does it— Is it about s— Does it sound audibly amusing, rather than the words being funny? Like, is it not in— is it not written in English?
Tom:
Yes. And I think you can probably guess which language from some of the context clues in there.
Verity:
Is it in Mandarin?
Tom:
It is, yes.
Verity:
And so, are all the words the same word?
Tom:
Yes, they are! (giggles)
Verity:
(whew)
Tom:
Do you want to try and guess which word?
Verity:
Shi.
Tom:
Yes! Complete solve outta nowhere!
Verity:
I just need to— I need to come back from Morris dancers. I just need, I need a win so badly.
Tom:
(laughs)
Matt:
Now, is it the same word, exactly the same word with the same tones each time? Or is it different tones on the top of the word?
Tom:
And Matt comes in just to kick the ball back in the goal after it's bounced out. Absolutely right. Tell me about tones, Matt.
Matt:
The way you say a word changes the meaning of a word in Chinese. I do not know Chinese, but it would be like the difference between shi and shii.
Tom:
Yes.
Matt:
Would be two different words. But there are like four of them, five of them?
Tom:
Four plus a neutral tone.
Matt:
So you can pronounce the same word four different ways, to get four different words, which could also be even more words based on context.
Tom:
Yes, spot on. This was written in 1916, to demonstrate the limitations of writing Mandarin Chinese in Romanised form.
Matt:
Ahhh.
Verity:
I'm so pleased we went into more detail, because otherwise it makes it sound like I said, "Does it sound funny, 'cause it's not in English?"
SFX:
(group laughs heartily)
Verity:
Just foreign noises.
Tom:
So why is it showing off the limitations of Romanisation, of changing it to English?
Matt:
Because it's probably just written as X-I with no indication of tone.
Tom:
S-H-I in that method, yes.
Matt:
Okay.
Tom:
And there are tone markers, sure. But what would it look like in the original language?
Verity:
Is it more like visually nice?
Tom:
Well, sort of. Kind of by default.
Matt:
The same word pronounced the same way is written with different characters.
Tom:
Yes.
Matt:
In Mandarin. 'Cause it's not phonetic.
Tom:
Yes, Mandarin uses different glyphs, if you like, for different words, and there isn't much— I don't think there's actually a relation. I'm not— There's certainly not much of a relation, between how a word is written down, or how a character is written down, and how it sounds. Verity, take it away.
Verity:
This question has been sent in by Frank Fabrizio. In 1986, Margaret Keane won a 'paint-off' in which she was the only participant. As a result, she was given $4 million, but this didn't matter to her. What was happening? In 1986, Margaret Keane won a 'paint-off' in which she was the only participant. As a result, she was given $4 million, but this didn't matter to her. What was happening?
Tom:
Is that like The Great British Bake-Off?
Verity:
It was a competition.
Tom:
Okay.
Matt:
A graffiti clearing competition?
Rowan:
Awwh.
Matt:
You're taking the paint off a wall?
Tom:
Ah.
Matt:
Yeah. Was it just a council contract, and she was just cleaning for fun?
SFX:
(group giggling)
Tom:
I think technically that would be a paint-off-off, but...
Verity:
Is the councils are spending huge amounts on these paint-offs for $4 million. That's where all the money's gone.
Matt:
Oh yeah.
Rowan:
Here's— Okay. So here's... I... There's so many baffling parts to this.
SFX:
(Matt and Tom laugh)
Rowan:
The most baffling to me personally is the fact that she didn't care about $4 million. Which means that... Okay, which means in my head, here are the options.
Tom:
(chuckles)
Rowan:
The $4 million were like Monopoly money, and they didn't count. But that doesn't— That seems like she'd actually care more. 'Cause she'd be like, I was promised $4 million, and you've given me nonsense. Two, she was extremely rich anyway, which means maybe she was a famous painter, but even then you'd think the $4 million mean a lot. My third option is that she's a petty woman. And that the paint— there was some other reason why the paint-off was a big deal, and that was like... a thing where the $4 million are like, "That's great, but I won, and I showed you all that I won, because the doubters were doubting me." And that I think is— I don't— I imagine that's not the actual answer, but I like that that's a part of it, that it's actually not relevant to the question, but her being petty is... is the reason for not caring about the money.
Tom:
Option four, she's dead.
Rowan:
Ohhh!
Matt:
Ooooh.
Tom:
That feels a bit dark for a Lateral question.
SFX:
(Verity and Tom chuckle)
Verity:
Run with petty woman.
Rowan:
(gasps loudly) Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay. Can I ask you, Verity: Is this the kind of competition that would be... that is to do with... Like, her being a woman is significant to this? Because historically and artistically... kind of the vibes of like... of women doing a thing, or being involved in... in art or writing or whatever, and someone else getting the credit or like science or things like that. And this was a way of her proving that she was actually involved in the art, or like she was someone who was— she'd— I don't know what it is, but there's something— I feel like there's... This would make sense if it was the idea of like, she was trying to prove, like people doubted her because they thought that she wasn't actually the person who painted this. So she couldn't— wasn't capable of doing it. And then she was like, "Look at me!" And then it was like the satisfaction of them being like, "Oh yeah, no, you did actually. You were able to paint that specific technique that we didn't think you were capable of doing."
Verity:
Bingo, there is oppression written in.
Tom:
Okay.
Matt:
Oppression written. So the two different things that I was thinking, one of them was, do I recognise that name? And the second one being... 1986 feels a little too late for it to be a patriarchal, "Well, I'm not entering if a woman's entered," but... She could have been the only one to enter, and everyone else didn't enter, because there was a woman involved.
Verity:
There was another participant who decided not to partake.
Matt:
Oh, is it racial?
Verity:
It's not racial.
Matt:
Excellent.
Verity:
It's, Rachel has joined in, and she's not doing it.
Matt:
Margaret Keane. You may have heard the name.
Tom:
I feel like I know that name as well.
Verity:
You may very well have heard the name.
Rowan:
So, what do we know so far? She's petty, but in a fun way, where she's petty against oppression. And she's American. Those, hmm, interesting clues.
Tom:
Okay, she didn't care about the $4 million, but maybe it was already her $4 million, and she was putting it up as the prize if anyone could beat her, and no one tried?
Verity:
A clue for you is that this is not happening in a traditional art making arena.
Matt:
A $4 million prize is not going to be on a kids' competition, is it?
Rowan:
I love it. All the kids were like, "We can't go up against Margaret. She's so good! We back out. We're so embarrassed."
Matt:
Well, you get the thing where you get a design competition that's intended for kids, but like an adult will...
Tom:
Oh, yeah.
Matt:
So there's someone else entered, but decided not to compete. Which to me would be a, "Well, she seems like the rightful winner anyway, so there's no point in me taking that away from her."
Verity:
'Entered' might be the wrong phrase. There was another person there who was also meant to paint.
Matt:
Were they hired? Was it like to paint a photo of the pr— a painter painting of the president? They were both hired, and one went, "Well, I'm not gonna do it If she's doing it – she'll be way better."
Verity:
The other participant did essentially wimp out, knowing that she would be better.
Rowan:
Was it like a legal thing?
Verity:
Follow that, follow that.
Tom:
Ohhh.
Matt:
Ohhh! Is she the most prolific court artist, and she's the reason why court artists look like court artists?
Verity:
No, but I love that.
Tom:
Paint-off. Was she proving that she was the artist of something in court?
Verity:
Yep, yep. She was there to prove that she had made the artworks.
Matt:
And then the person who was also brought in to give it a go and, "Well, I'm not— there's no point in me even trying – she did it." (giggles)
Verity:
Mhm.
Tom:
Oh, and $4 million prize must be like the settlement or something like that, or she's awarded the terms of the contract that weren't— that wasn't fulfilled.
Verity:
Exactly, and people might recognise the name because in 2014, the story was turned into Tim Burton's Big Eyes.
Rowan:
Big Eyes!
Verity:
So, Margaret Keane painted figures with great big eyes, which is what she was known for. And her husband at the time started to sell them, and told her that he was selling them under her name. But actually he'd been taking the credit for years. So after they divorced, she took him to court for defamation. The judge ordered them both to do a painting. Margaret finished hers in less than an hour, and he said that he couldn't because he had a bad shoulder.
Tom:
(chuckles)
Verity:
So the jury ruled in her favour and awarded her $4 million in damages. It was reduced on appeal, but Margaret said, you know, "I don't need the money. I just wanted the legal victory."
Matt:
She still took the money anyway, I suppose, but...
SFX:
(Matt and Tom laugh)
Verity:
It would've been nice.
Matt:
Yeah.
Tom:
Yeah.
Matt:
"I don't need it. I'm having it, but I don't need it."
Verity:
Yeah. That's not why I'm here.
Tom:
One last order of business, then: the question right at the start of the show. Thank you to Jimmy Dailey for sending this in. Although he retired in 1974, Hall of Famer Jerry West has appeared on every NBA team since 1969. How? Any quick guesses from the panel? Matt?
Matt:
Is it the person batting icon of the NBA? Is that his silhouette?
Tom:
Ah. So... You are so correct and also so wrong at the same time.
Matt:
Wrong sport!
SFX:
(group wheezing)
Matt:
I thought baseball. Basketball, the person...
Verity:
Basketing.
Matt:
doing a dunk?
Rowan:
Dribbling.
Tom:
Yes, that logo of the NBA, the blue and red logo with the silhouette of the basketball player on it, is based on a photo of Jerry West taken by Wen Roberts. The NBA has never officially acknowledged it as him, largely to avoid licensing issues. Thank you very much to all of our players. Where can people find you? What's going on in your lives? We will start with Verity.
Verity:
So, if you search Verity Babbs, I'll come up... (chuckles) summoned in a mirror. If on online, @VerityBabbsArt, online. And yes, my book, The History of Art in One Sentence, is available in all sorts of places. And please buy it.
Tom:
Rowan.
Rowan:
Hi, if you search Rowan Ellis, similarly, I would appear, but only online. And if you are particularly interested in hearing me and not seeing me, I co-host the Queer Movie Podcast, which is a podcast about queer films.
Tom:
And Matt.
Matt:
I am no longer the top result for Matt Gray on most platforms.
Tom:
Oh no!
Matt:
So you need to type in MattGrayYES, or go to mattg.co.uk for links to everywhere where you'll find me.
Tom:
And if you wanna know more about this show, you can do that at lateralcast.com, which is hopefully still the top result for "lateralcast"... where you can also send in your own ideas for questions. We are at @lateralcast basically everywhere, and you can get full video episodes on Spotify. Thank you very much to Matt Gray.
Matt:
Yea!
Tom:
Rowan Ellis.
Rowan:
Hello, bye-bye.
Tom:
Verity Babbs.
Verity:
Thanks.
Tom:
I've been Tom Scott, and that's been Lateral.
Episode Credits
| HOST | Tom Scott |
| QUESTION PRODUCER | David Bodycombe |
| EDITED BY | Julie Hassett at The Podcast Studios, Dublin |
| MUSIC | Karl-Ola Kjellholm ('Private Detective'/'Agrumes', courtesy of epidemicsound.com) |
| ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS | Jimmy Dailey, Frank Fabrizio, Joel Haydon, Nico, Jordan Cook-Irwin, Charlie Brodersen, Ben W |
| FORMAT | Pad 26 Limited/Labyrinth Games Ltd |
| EXECUTIVE PRODUCERS | David Bodycombe and Tom Scott |