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Episode 195: Dumped pizza
3rd July, 2026 • Annie Rauwerda, Jen the Archaeologist and Emily Graslie face questions about emergent emoji, fiddly film and competitive careers.
Transcription by Caption+
Tom:
How did a sea creature called the geography cone get the nickname the 'cigarette snail'?
The answer to that at the end of the show. My name's Tom Scott, and this is Lateral.
Today's episode of Lateral is like a stunning home for the mind. This intellectual property features open plan thinking, original features, and several structural weaknesses in basic logic. It also boasts spacious guest opinions, an owner who insists everything has great potential, and a question room that needs some serious renovation. Although, the corridors are highly appropriate, as they are full of dead ends.
Let's meet the brave buyers who've agreed to take on this mental fixer-upper.
Returning to the show: from The Brain Scoop, Emily Graslie.
Emily:
Hi, it's me! That's me. Thanks for having me. I'm so excited to be back. Ha! Let's do it.
Tom:
It— We're so excited to have you back. How is everything going with The Brain Scoop? We— For the— It's been a while. We should talk about what The Brain Scoop is.
Emily:
I have a YouTube channel that's the behind-the-scenes research and science of natural history museums. But also, I've been branching out to other science facilities, national parks, that kind of thing. Science nerdery, interviews, shenanigans, and more.
Tom:
What is the best thing you have seen for that recently?
Emily:
My favorite fish fact.
Tom:
Ooh.
Emily:
My favorite fact in the world has to do with fish.
So, there are around 68,000 species of vertebrate animals in the world, which is only 5% of all animal life, because there's like 300,000 species of beetles. Anyway, half of all vertebrates are fish. There's like 34,000 species of fish. Half of all fish live in freshwater, so that's like 15-18 thousand species.
But as you know, the planet is 97% saltwater, so it's only less than 1% of all available freshwater environments in the world house half of all fish species.
Tom:
That is a good fish fact. I appreciate your fish fact.
Emily:
It's been on my mind. So that's what I've been thinking about.
Tom:
I also, unfortunately, now have to just throw out a question from later.
SFX:
(paper crinkling)
Tom:
So just, put that one away.
Emily:
Sorry.
Tom:
Good luck with the other questions on the show today.
Also joining us: from the depths of Wikipedia, welcome back, Annie Rauwerda.
Annie:
I've emerged. I'm here. I'm so happy to be back.
Tom:
(laughs) I'm gonna ask the same question that I always do, which is like, favourite Wikipedia thing you've found recently?
Annie:
Oh, once again, it's like choosing your favorite child. They're all my favorites, but the— I don't have a particular item on this list that is my favorite to tell you, but just the whole list of circus disasters is incredible.
Tom:
Oh? Wow!
Annie:
You seem like a guy that would know probably most of them, but I imagine...
SFX:
(Tom and Emily laugh)
Annie:
There might even be some new ones for you.
Tom:
The greatest compliment and insult in the same sentence. And I can't be mad.
Annie:
That was not an insult!
Tom:
I can't be mad. Because you're right. I probably do.
Annie:
Mhm.
Tom:
Well, joining the two of you today is a brand-new player to Lateral: Jen the Archaeologist, welcome to the show.
Annie:
Hi! Thanks for having me.
Tom:
This is your first time here, so you should absolutely plug the YouTube channel, plug everything you do. You are Jen the Archaeologist. What do you do?
Jen:
I post on both TikTok and YouTube, primarily on TikTok. I do short-form content mainly because I am getting a PhD, so I don't really have time for long-form content at the moment. But yeah, I post daily. If you like archaeology or history, come check me out.
Tom:
Good luck to all three of you on the show today.
It's time to step inside and imagine the possibilities with question one.
Thank you to Dave Byrne for this question.
As a young boy, Leonard was told to keep his eyes closed during a religious ceremony – but he peeked. How did this lead to the creation of an emoji?
One more time.
As a young boy, Leonard was told to keep his eyes closed during a religious ceremony – but he peeked. How did this lead to the creation of an emoji?
Emily:
I don't know.
Annie:
(laughs)
Emily:
I just think of— I think of winking. I don't know if that has anything to do with an emo— like...
Jen:
Yeah.
Emily:
"He-heh!"
Jen:
Yeah, like peeking through fingers maybe or...
Annie:
See, that feels too obvious for Lateral.
Jen:
Is Leonard important?
Tom:
(laughs)
Jen:
(chuckles) Yeah.
Tom:
Jen, it's not that, but that's starting to move along the right lines.
Annie:
The idea of Leonard being important?
Tom:
The idea of looking through your fingers.
Annie:
Leonard doesn't matter. Nobody cares about that guy.
Tom:
Oh, Leonard absolutely matters.
Annie:
Okay, I was just kind of joking. Everyone matters, by the way.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Jen:
Is it Leonard Nimoy, and is it this?
Tom:
Yes, it is. Yes, Jen.
Jen:
(laughs)
Tom:
Do you wanna describe what that is for the audience at home?
Jen:
So, for Star Trek fans, it is the "live long and prosper" sign.
Tom:
Yes, that is—
Emily:
So, what is the... What is the connection between that and emojis and Leonard Nimoy?
Jen:
There is a emoji that is this.
Tom:
There is. There is a Vulcan hand salute emoji. It probably doesn't have that exact title. It'd probably have something very clinical to describe it, but yes. The index and middle finger together, and the ring and little finger together, that is the Vulcan salute. And you're right, the Leonard in this question is Leonard Nimoy. Let's try and track a little bit more of the process here. Where might he have found that gesture?
Annie:
And this is during a church service?
Tom:
It's during a religious ceremony.
Annie:
Ohhh, 'cause I was thinking like, "This is the church, this is the steeple, open—"
SFX:
(Jen and Tom laugh)
Annie:
So, but that's a completely different hand symbol. Alright.
Emily:
(blurts laugh)
Annie:
And then praying is kinda another emoji. Or is it clapping? That's the question. I don't know of any religious ceremonies that have this, except for Star Trek ones.
Jen:
I'm like, if he's holding his hands in front of his face for some reason, if he did that, he would then be able to see through them. But I don't know what ceremony would involve holding your hands in front of your face.
Tom:
I'm not gonna ask for deep religious knowledge here, but I'm gonna ask, there's maybe one more connection. You have all said "church". Not technically the right term.
Annie:
Temple? I'm just gonna name terms. Mosque.
SFX:
(Tom and Emily laugh)
Emily:
Facility.
Tom:
(laughs)
Annie:
Oooh. Tom, it better be a facility.
Tom:
A religious facility. I'm not quite sure that's right.
Annie:
Funeral home?
Tom:
Church is close, but you've all been in the Christian tradition so far.
Jen:
Oh, was Leonard Nimoy Jewish?
Tom:
Yes, and when he was a child, his grandfather took him to an Orthodox synagogue.
Jen:
Okay.
Tom:
I'm not gonna ask for the details of the ceremony here. Because first, no one here is gonna know it, and second, traditionally, worshipers close their eyes while there is a sacred hand gesture symbolising a Hebrew letter representing the Almighty.
Young Leonard disobeyed and looked. And years later, while filming Star Trek, he felt that his character needed a uniquely Vulcan gesture, and he drew from that childhood memory and introduced the Vulcan salute, which, like you said, is now an emoji.
Annie:
So this is supposed to be a secret?
Tom:
The secret did get revealed at some point, yes.
Each of our guests brought a question along with them. We will start with Emily.
Emily:
So this question was sent in by Robyn.
Robyn often learns music backwards. No one around her thinks this is particularly strange or noteworthy. Why?
So, once again.
Robyn often learns music backwards. No one around her thinks this is particularly strange or noteworthy. Why?
Annie:
Robyn has a bunch of awesome hippie friends that don't mind if you live to the beat of your own drum.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Emily:
I mean, that might be true, but I don't think that has anything to do with the answer to this question.
Annie:
Okay. Well—
Jen:
Is Robyn a bird? Is Robyn a literal robin?
SFX:
(group laughing)
Emily:
That is a... no. But that's a really fascinating conclusion.
Tom:
Robyn is left-handed. So, she has to learn the music... backwards on the strings of the guitar, and no one else notices unless they're also left-handed?
Emily:
That's somewhat... The ambidextrousness has something to do with the answer.
Tom:
Okay. 'Cause I assumed when you said it was gonna be backwards temporally, as opposed to physically.
Emily:
They're related in a way.
Annie:
So they're not playing the recording of her performance in reverse. They're not doing that.
Tom:
Okay. It's physically backwards.
Emily:
No. Mhm.
Jen:
Drums? (laughs) I mean, that would matter which direction.
Emily:
Well, that's... You're... similar.
Annie:
Okay, I'm hearing percussion. I'm hearing percussion.
Tom:
The triangle. She plays the triangle.
Emily:
(belly laughs) No! I mean, she might, but not in this instance.
Annie:
We don't know what else Robyn does with her time.
Jen:
The xylophone or something like that?
Emily:
Yeah, bingo.
Tom:
Oh?
Jen:
Okay.
Emily:
Exactly.
Tom:
Okay.
Jen:
Is there two people? So it's like one that's...
Emily:
(nods)
Jen:
Is it one that's so complicated that you need two people, so one person playing on one side of the xylophone and one person on the other?
Emily:
That— I know that those exist. So that could be a second answer to this, but you're— I think you have hit it, where there are people on opposite sides of the instrument, but like, but why? If it's not to combine into a single piece.
Tom:
That has to completely mess up everything about learning it. Like, having the high notes on the left.
Emily:
If you're learning it.
Tom:
Well, just switching over. It's like those backwards bikes, where you sudden— where the handlebars suddenly go the wrong way. If you've got it locked in on one side...
Emily:
Yeah.
Tom:
It's gonna be really difficult to learn it the other way.
Emily:
But what if you don't have it locked in on one side?
Annie:
What if it's a spinning xylophone? So you switch every time?
SFX:
(others laugh heartily)
Emily:
You were getting so close, and then it's like— and then it kinda went that way.
Tom:
On which axis, Annie?
Emily:
No, I can picture what you're talking about. It's like if you had somebody in the middle of it, and it was spinning, and it had the scale, and then you could be playing. It's like Rob Swanson in the— or Ron Swanson in the— that scene in The Office, where people come in, and he's in a circular desk. Anyway.
Annie:
Wait, Ron Swanson? Parks and Rec, but...
Emily:
Yes.
Annie:
that was very "uhm, actually" of me.
SFX:
(Emily and Tom laugh)
Annie:
I... Okay, so what I was imagining was... what's her name – Robyn is standing. She's standing by herself, but the xylophone is kind of like on a— it's like a Lazy Susan xylophone. And so sometimes when it's backwards, she plays backwards. Sometimes when it's forwards, she plays forwards. Does this make sense? It's not something that I think should exist for any reason, but...
SFX:
(others laughing)
Annie:
But that's what I had in my head.
Emily:
I'm following you, but no, that's not the answer. I see what you're saying.
Annie:
Drat!
Tom:
When you said spinning, my axis was that it's actually rotating kind of in front of her, like it's on a giant wheel, and kind of spinning 'round.
Annie:
Ooh.
Tom:
Like on a steering wheel kind of axis. Also probably not.
Emily:
The instrument itself remains stationary.
Tom:
So it's basically reversed, right? Like high notes are on the left, low notes are on the right.
Emily:
Mhm.
Jen:
And it is a xylophone, to be clear, or something like that?
Emily:
Yes.
Jen:
Okay.
Emily:
Or that kind of percussion instrument. Right.
Jen:
Okay.
Emily:
But why would she be standing on one side of it, facing the correct side?
Annie:
Does she have some sort of physical difference or disability, that is involved? Other than being left-handed. (snickers)
Emily:
No.
Tom:
Well maybe she's teaching it.
Emily:
(applauds)
Tom:
Okay! Because, because, because, because... I said high notes on the left and low notes on the right.
Emily:
Mhm. Mhm.
Tom:
And then my brain filled in, "from her perspective"?
Emily:
Yes.
Tom:
I was gonna say you could just flip the camera, but that doesn't work either. You have to be on the other side for that to make sense, don't you?
Emily:
Mhm, yeah. So, to teach a percussion instrument, oftentimes rather than standing side by side, she as the teacher will stand opposite of the student, and so she has had to learn how to play backwards.
But it's just a standard thing that once you're at the level of percussion playing, it's like par for the course. Most of those musicians can learn it backway and frontways.
Tom:
Wow!
Annie:
That's amazing.
Emily:
Yeah!
Annie:
Good for Robyn.
Emily:
I mean, go Robyn.
Annie:
Robyn, come on the show.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Emily:
Yeah.
Tom:
Thank you to Tain Prefect for this next question.
The BFI Southbank in London is the only cinema in the UK that is allowed to show a certain kind of historic film. Why?
I'll say that again.
The BFI Southbank in London is the only cinema in the UK that is allowed to show a certain kind of historic film. Why?
Emily:
Is it because they're the only one who has the technology? Like, the player? Like, if it's a really old, you know, kind of—
Annie:
Like it's like a VHS, something ancient. (laughs)
Emily:
Yeah, but way, way, way back. I'm talking about like, you know, when they actually had to cut the film together in the booth because it was still on film reels. So is it on a special... Or maybe, is it... I'm... what about like talkies? I don't know!
Tom:
(laughs)
Annie:
Yeah, like remember with silent films, they would have the organist guy? Or woman, maybe. I don't know. I never went to one.
SFX:
(Tom and Emily laugh)
Annie:
Also, I was— Just so you know, I was just kinda joking about the VHSs, 'cause I did those as a kid, so it's not that old.
Tom:
I'm sure there's a hipster cinema somewhere in New York that is still playing with a live organist.
Annie:
There probably is.
Tom:
There probably is.
Annie:
You're right. Ugh! I live in the greatest city in the world.
Tom:
(laughs)
Annie:
And I haven't even explored it. Some old film types are dangerous and flammable, and I know this because...
Oh, shoot. Paul Thomas Anderson, he just had that new movie. It was like— It was a really long runtime. It was— Everyone loved it, and it's called... Shoot, I forgot the name of it. There was that recent Paul Thomas Anderson movie where they had a few showings that used a really old historic movie technology, and multiple cinemas had a problem where it caught on fire.
Tom:
We are rattling through the questions today, aren't we? Absolutely right, Annie.
Emily:
(laughs)
Annie:
Okay. Wow. I couldn't— It's bad I don't remember the name of the Paul Thomas Anderson movie 'cause it just came out. It was a big one.
Tom:
Emily, you were spot on with historic technology and trying to identify— This was not— (cracks up) This was not a genre of film, which was where I think where the question was hoping to mislead you.
It was in fact about technology. And Annie, you got the technology. Cellulose nitrate film stock is extremely flammable and dangerous. It requires specialist licensing and equipment and training in the UK, and the British Film Institute is the only place that has all the permits required.
Emily:
That's cool. I wanna go there.
Annie:
That's a cool fact.
Emily:
I feel like... yeah, watching a film with the added threat of mortal peril...
SFX:
(Tom and Jen laugh)
Emily:
would really heighten the cinematic experience for me!
Annie:
Well, and now I'm so curious about why in the US, it seems like anyone who wants can just play it, and fil— and cinemas are burning. How is there no regulation there?
Jen:
Different laws. There's a lot of stuff that the US takes a lot less seriously than the rest of the world.
Emily:
God bless America.
Tom:
(chuckles) Cellulose nitrate is 15 times more combustible than the equivalent weight of wood. So as fuel goes, it is ideal.
Emily:
So pack that if you're gonna, you know, be stranded somewhere. Just bring a bunch of cellulose film as fire starter.
Jen:
Yeah, perfect.
Annie:
Next time I feel like my plane's gonna go down...
Tom:
(laughs)
Emily:
Mhm, yeah. You're like...
Annie:
I'll pack some.
Emily:
Where can I get some historic film?
Annie:
(giggles)
Jen:
Yeah.
Emily:
I gotta source that ASAP.
Annie:
I'm going camping. (laughs)
Jen:
Instead of dryer lint, just old film.
Tom:
(chuckles) That's actually a good question, Emily. Sourcing historic film is more difficult than it might otherwise be.
Jen:
Because it's all caught on fire, or...?
Tom:
Because it's all caught on fire, yes. There have been several cinema fires and warehouse fires over the years. A lot of historic film has gone up in flames.
Annie:
Wow.
Emily:
When I worked at a museum, we had a photo archive, and I know that there was really special handling. They didn't even wanna show you some of the film. It's like you would look at it the wrong way and ignite it for— I don't know.
Tom:
Yeah, the BFI has a cold store, and they have to bring the film up to room temperature over 24 hours to avoid disrupting any of the stuff that's on there.
Emily:
The margin of error that must have gone through, for them to learn all of this special handling.
Tom:
Yes.
Jen, we will go to your question please.
Jen:
Okay. This question has been sent in by Z Vamosy.
In 2026, a common method of dating US archaeological sites for the future became five times more expensive. How?
In 2026, a common method of dating US archaeological sites for the future became five times more expensive. How?
Emily:
The only thing that— or the first thing that comes to mind is, like, some of those isotope sample things that you need to run processes in a lab. Sometimes those... because of, you know, corporate greed, they really increase the fees on lab materials. But that's not a very—
Annie:
Well, like RAM is getting really expensive. Is it RAM- related, for computers? Is it the same chemical that they use to make RAM?
Tom:
I'm gonna sit out of this one, 'cause I think while I don't know it, I think I've worked it out, so I'm gonna leave it to Annie and Emily.
Jen:
Okay. I would focus on the "for the future" portion of the question.
Annie:
Okay. So we really— And I know that they talk about, like, how the difference between the proposed Anthropocene and the Holocene, they— Well, they don't really have— They haven't decided exactly, but they're thinking about doing, like, nukes, because that happened kind of recently.
Tom:
What?
Annie:
Like, I don't know. You know how, like, once atom bombs have— or once nuclear weapons are used, or that it changes a bunch about the fossil record?
Jen:
For, like, carbon dating or—
Annie:
Yeah. The types— like that type of—
Jen:
Yeah.
Emily:
Yeah.
Annie:
That's what I was kind of thinking. And if I'm totally off, tell me if I'm off. This is not— I'm not— Well, I'm not the archeologist here, so...
SFX:
(group laughing)
Tom:
That's probably why the archaeologist got this question.
Jen:
Yeah.
Annie:
Probably.
Emily:
How— Okay. What would make it more expensive if it's not, like, lab-related technology?
Annie:
They also have defunded so much stuff in 2026.
Emily:
I know. I'm like, is it some—
Annie:
Could it be like, you can't get into the national parks as well anymore?
Emily:
Or, like, tariffs.
Annie:
Tariffs. Oh, yeah. I didn't even think about that.
Emily:
These are all really sad answers. I don't feel like this is really what they were looking for. I feel like it's more science... process related.
Tom:
I'm pretty sure I've got this, and I'm just amazed that the one Brit in here is the person who's figured this one out. This is US archaeological sites, right, Jen?
Jen:
Yes.
Tom:
Okay, yeah.
Jen:
Specifically US archaeological sites.
Annie:
Only the American ones, okay.
Jen:
Mhm. I would think more along the lines of excavation and what an archaeologist might do during an excavation.
Annie:
Is it 'cause they defunded a bunch of scientific research?
Tom:
(chuckles)
Jen:
Well, they did do that, but that's not—
Emily:
We're traumatized! I think that Annie and I can't come up with another reason. Anything should be possible!
Annie:
Emily, I think we can do this. I think we can lock in, but maybe not actually.
Jen:
So, when you are done with a site, what might you do?
Emily:
Preserve it?
Annie:
I have no idea. I'm just imagining, they put a flag, and they say, "We just excavated this."
Emily:
"We found it, guys."
Annie:
"Done."
Emily:
"Here we did it. Here we did— Don't touch it. Stay out."
Annie:
"Donezo." "Check mark."
Emily:
What would they do? To publish? To publish about it? Is it because it's more expensive to publish in scientific journals?
SFX:
(Emily and Annie chuckle)
Emily:
Again, these are sad answers. I mean, they might be true, but I don't think it's what they're looking for.
Jen:
It's five times more expensive, but still very cheap.
Tom:
If I can pitch in with a clue, Jen: A few years ago, same price rise happened in Canada.
Annie:
What's something that became cool in Canada and then spread to the US? Justin Bieber, kind of.
Tom:
(belly laughs)
Emily:
I mean...
Jen:
It's more that something was discontinued.
Tom:
This is how archaeologists are marking the site, right?
Jen:
Yeah.
Emily:
Is it chalk? Is it some kind of like... like in Japan, where you guys know about that special chalk that all these mathematicians hoard, because it was a special formula that—
Jen:
It writes smoother or something, yeah.
Tom:
Huh.
Emily:
Yeah.
Jen:
But it's not that.
Emily:
People were buying it up because the parent company was retir— Anyway, no, if it's not that, hmm.
Annie:
(laughs) If it's not the special Japanese chalk, what could it be?
Emily:
I don't know!
Jen:
So what information would you wanna pass on to future archaeologists about a unit you just excavated?
Annie:
What you found there, who you are, when you were there.
Jen:
Mhm. When you were there. Stick with that.
Annie:
Okay, so how would we say when we were there? I would write a note, and I would say, "Hey, I was here on this day."
Emily:
I'm like, are time capsules? Is the pr— a fee of time capsules in the ground?
Annie:
(laughs)
Jen:
You're so close!
Emily:
Is it because of precious metals? To... are...
Annie:
Climate change?
Jen:
(chuckles) No.
Emily:
(laughs heartily)
Jen:
Stick with time.
Annie:
Now we're just kind of saying like cute— we're saying buzzwords that get people angry.
Emily:
(laughs)
Jen:
What's something that has a year written on it?
Annie:
A dollar bill.
Emily:
A penny.
Jen:
Mhm.
Annie:
Penny. A penny!
Emily:
A penny.
Annie:
It's pennies. You mark it with pennies.
Jen:
And what has happened to the penny?
Emily:
It's going away!
Annie:
Because they discontinued it, and they didn't announce any solution for replacing the situation for—
Jen:
Yeah. So why would it be five times more expensive if pennies are discontinued?
Annie:
'Cause you have to do it with nickels!
Emily:
Ohhh!
Jen:
(laughs)
Annie:
I wasn't thinking like that at all.
Emily:
Yeah, me either.
Jen:
Yeah, so... I've never actually done this in an archaeology unit, but I have heard of this. So when backfilling in a unit, typically we put something in the unit to mark that we have excavated there, and some archaeologists will put a coin. And the cheapest is of course a penny, so that's one you can easily throw away into this unit.
But since the penny is gone, now people will use the next highest coin, which is a nickel, so technically five times more expensive.
Emily:
Wow. I mean, that makes se— I just didn't know that was a cool thing that archeologists did.
Tom:
(chuckles)
Emily:
I feel like I'm... now I'm part of the cool kid club.
Annie:
I'm so excited. I'm gonna be leaving pennies everywhere, so that people know... people can know what year I was there.
Jen:
Yeah. Coins are actually one of the most precise forms of absolute dating that we can do, because we know that if we find a coin with a year on it, we know that that site can't date to before that time.
Emily:
That's pretty cool.
Tom:
Thank you to Chelsea J for this question.
When Tim was away, a delivery company dumped seven pizzas over his backyard fence, making a racket as they did so. Tim was very thankful for this. Why?
I'll say that again.
When Tim was away, a delivery company dumped seven pizzas over his backyard fence, making a racket as they did so. Tim was very thankful for this. Why?
Emily:
I feel like I know the answer to this.
Tom:
Alright.
Emily:
So I'm not gonna say anything.
Tom:
Annie and Jen, it's on you.
Jen:
Was he getting robbed? And he wanted someone to make noise? Like someone was there, so he called the delivery man?
Annie:
So I was completely off. I just— My only association— When people talk about that many pizzas, I think "My Very Elegant Mother Just Brought Us Nine Pizzas". Just... Do you know...
Tom:
The planets?
Annie:
The planets.
Tom:
Okay.
Annie:
But that's not— That had nothing to do with it. I was just— In my head, I was like, I'm just gonna get the ball rolling. But Jen had a ball that was actually— Seems like it was rolling toward the goal already.
Jen:
If you think you're being robbed, and you could call someone, and not the police, I guess, for whatever reason. If you don't trust the police, you might call the pizza man.
Tom:
You are right that the delivery company was the pizza delivery.
Jen:
Okay.
Annie:
Yeah, I was imagining that he had a Ring camera or something. I don't have one of those, but I imagine that you can see when you're getting robbed.
Tom:
Oh, he wasn't getting robbed.
Jen:
(chuckles) Okay.
Annie:
But he wanted to make a bunch of noise.
Tom:
Yes, yeah.
Annie:
Did he— He didn't have an alarm clock, and he needed to wake up.
Jen:
Were there animals? Like, if a dog or an animal was getting into his house or something.
Tom:
I'd keep thinking vaguely along those lines, Jen, yes.
Jen:
Okay.
Annie:
A bear. He wants the bear to get out of his house and eat the pizzas. That are being thrown over the fence into a backyard, I imagine?
Tom:
(laughs)
Emily:
I know— I feel like I know what this is.
Tom:
That's okay.
Emily:
And I want to say, but I'm not gonna say it.
Tom:
That's okay. Yeah, I think you've worked— you got this one early, Emily.
Jen:
Like, a raccoon or...
Tom:
Seven pizzas. What might... Bearing in mind, Tim's away.
Jen:
Just a bunch of raccoons. Seven raccoons.
Tom:
(laughs)
Annie:
One pizza for each day of the week.
Tom:
Yes. This was over seven days. This was one pizza per day for seven days, and... "can you make a racket as you throw it over the back fence?"
Jen:
He forgot to feed his dog or something like that.
Tom:
Jen, you are very close.
Jen:
Okay.
Tom:
Very, very close.
Annie:
He forgot to feed his... goat.
Tom:
I mean, name an animal. Name an animal that you can throw an entire boxed pizza at, and it'll probably be okay.
Emily:
A raccoon.
Annie:
Raccoon. Goat.
Tom:
(laughs)
Jen:
Pig.
Tom:
Pig. Yes.
Annie:
(chuckles) Okay.
Tom:
Spot on, Jen.
Emily:
Oh, I was gonna say raccoon. My thought was the— but the fence would be the dumpster, and the pizzas were from the delivery man, and it was the garbage man who delivered seven pizzas into the dumpster. That was what I was gonna say.
Tom:
No, in this case, this was someone online explaining that they were suddenly called away and couldn't find a pet sitter for their pot-bellied pig.
Jen:
Okay.
Annie:
My very elegant man just served us nine pizzas.
Tom:
Close enough.
Annie:
But not nine, but seven.
Tom:
The owner placed one order per day for seven days using DoorDash, adding the instruction, and I'm gonna quote this directly, "Please yeet it over the backyard fence and make some noise."
Annie:
(laughs heartily)
Jen:
Yeet.
Tom:
He texts back and forth with the drivers. And by the time that Tim returned, the pizzas and their boxes were gone. And the pig had gained a little weight.
Emily:
What kind of pizza did the pig like?
Tom:
(laughs) I do not know.
Emily:
But I want— you know?
Jen:
You'd hope not ham.
Tom:
(laughs) Yes.
Emily:
(laughs uproariously)
Tom:
Yes, you would hope not ham. That's fair.
Annie, let's go to your question, please.
Annie:
This question has been sent in by Andrew.
When novelist Emily St. John Mandel got divorced in 2022, she found that she couldn't properly move on with her life without the help of Slate. Why?
I'll repeat.
When novelist Emily St. John Mandel got divorced in 2022, she found that she couldn't properly move on with her life without the help of Slate. Why?
Tom:
I can't believe I have to sit out of a second one. Sorry. I saw the news article.
Emily:
Does it have to do with slate as a building material? 'Cause I have a slate roof on my house, and it is a pain in the butt. But I could let that go...
Tom:
(snickers)
Annie:
(laughs)
Emily:
if my husband croaked. I probably wouldn't need to take the roof with me.
SFX:
(Tom and Annie giggle)
Annie:
This is a different type of Slate.
Jen:
I was gonna ask if it was the difference between slate the physical rock, or Slate, the— Isn't there a news outlet called Slate or something like that?
Emily:
There's that.
Jen:
Okay. Is it that?
Annie:
This is the news outlet.
Jen:
Okay.
Emily:
Was sh— Was her husband an owner, and she needed to leave with the intellectual property?
Annie:
No. (giggles)
Emily:
Oh. What is it with me and the most bureaucratic answers to these questions?
SFX:
(group laughing)
Jen:
Did she write a news article about the divorce or something?
Emily:
Did she write his obituary?
Annie:
(snickers)
Tom:
He's not dead. Just write his obituary anyway.
Emily:
Oh, did she need to— Did she write an— for an advice column? Did she write a question for the person who answers when you write in, when you're like, "Dear..." whatever, I— "my daughter, my adult daughter won't talk to me anymore"? I see that article pop up all the time on my Facebook.
SFX:
(group giggling)
Jen:
Did he slander her, and then she needed Slate to clear her name or something?
Annie:
There was no slander.
Emily:
So it has to do with the news article. Does she know a journalist at Slate that she started dating... and moved on because she found new love... in media as a writer to writer?
Jen:
Yeah, so maybe she wrote an article?
Annie:
Keep talking about why any of this would be required for her to truly move on with her life.
Emily:
Yeah, sometimes people just need to talk it out.
Annie:
True.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Annie:
You tell me.
Emily:
Yeah, or write an op-ed about it, or... advertise for a new thing— ad thing?
Annie:
I'm gonna give you a clue. Other publications could theoretically have helped her too. Think in what way might a divorced person want to move on, especially if she was a public figure.
Emily:
To respond to some kind of controversy?
Jen:
Yeah.
Emily:
Was she— Did this have to do with the Coldplay incident?
Jen:
(chuckles softly) Ohh.
Annie:
(blurts laugh)
Emily:
(laughs heartily)
Annie:
The people that were cheating on their spouses?
Emily:
Yeah. Yeah.
Annie:
Yeah.
Jen:
And she's telling her side of the story or something like that.
Emily:
Yeah.
Tom:
I've not heard that described as the "Coldplay incident" before.
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Tom:
There needs to be a list of bands with incidents named after them. Like, there's the Coldplay one, there's the Dave Matthews Band tour bus. I'm sure there's others.
Emily:
I'm sure there's a Wikipedia article about it.
Annie:
There should be. Yeah. Bands with— that are the namesakes of incidents that don't really have that much to do with them.
Tom:
Mhm.
Emily:
Except for the tour bus thing. That was foul.
Tom:
(laughs)
Emily:
Okay, why would they need a news— If it's not to clear your name or advertise something, like a book or a review.
Annie:
"Clear her name" is interesting. 'Cause she doesn't need to clear her name, but she does have to do something...
Jen:
Like, tell her side of the story or something.
Annie:
There's— Okay. She was finding it surprisingly hard to update her status... via one organization in particular.
Jen:
Oh, is this a Wikipedia thing, where it's like, she needed to cite something to edit Wikipedia on the fact that she is divorced now?
Annie:
Yes. Wikipedia was asking for a credible source that she was divorced. I have some thoughts to add on this if you want. Would you like—
Jen:
Yes, please!
Annie:
So when this happened, it was— This was 2022, so I was— I've been involved in Wikipedia for, I don't know, maybe six or seven years. So I was very much watching all this happen.
And I think if she had said, "Hey, I'm Emily St. John Mandel"... There's an email that you can email if you want. You can also go on the talk page. and if you say, "This is a personal detail that isn't really a controversial thing. I can provide evidence"... You don't always have to go to Slate. You should be able to say the situation, and they'll trust you.
But I think she was being anonymous, as many Wikipedia editors are, and so they were like, "Well, how do we know you're being legit? You need to have a source."
Emily:
Yeah.
Annie:
But if you are listening to this, and you, like, I don't know, if the name of one of your kids is wrong, or some other central personal detail that you want removed or changed, you can email Wikipedia editors or put something on the talk page. And you don't have to go to Slate, but... you can. That's another way to do it.
Emily:
Wow.
Annie:
And maybe this explanation isn't helpful, or maybe it is. I don't know.
Tom:
(laughs)
Emily:
No, I mean, I had no idea. Because people ask me all the time, they're like, "Who wr— Who edits your Wikipedia page? Do you?"
And I'm like, one, that's weird, and two, I have no— I don't know. I don't know.
Annie:
I can check, and I'll tell you if they're my friends.
Emily:
(blurts laugh)
Tom:
(laughs)
Annie:
Emily St. John Mandel, the author of novels such as Station Eleven – that's a really good one – was previously married to writer Kevin Mandel. When they divorced in 2022, Mandel found she couldn't simply edit her own Wikipedia page. Wikipedia's rules require that personal information about living people be supported by reliable, published secondary sources.
And as I said, there is a tiny caveat, which is, like, if you're like, "This is a big deal for my life, I need to move on", then, sometimes people will listen to you. And self-edits are discouraged, especially from the subject.
That's true. (cracks up)
Tom:
(laughs)
Annie:
To solve the problem, she gave an interview to Slate.com entitled – it's a very funny interview – "A Totally Normal Interview with Author Emily St. John Mandel", which spelled out her divorce and new relationship in blunt language. Emily married Laura Barisonzi in 2025.
Tom:
There were some very quick solves in this episode, so we have unlocked the shiny bonus question.
Thank you to CJ Mina for sending this one in.
Dylan has a brother, and Ashley has a sister. As a result, all those children are more likely to be employed in the US in their competitive industry. What specific benefit do they offer to their employer?
I'll say that again.
Dylan has a brother, and Ashley has a sister. As a result, all those children are more likely to be employed in the US in their competitive industry. What specific benefit do they offer to their employer?
Emily:
I was gonna say, I think I know this one too.
Tom:
(chuckles) Okay.
Emily:
I'm gonna shut my mouth.
Annie:
I guess what I'm gonna say is, like, if you need a... you know, a kidney, if this is a job that really messes up your kidneys, and you're, like, gonna need a kidney donor... often family members are good donors of organs.
Jen:
Yeah, I was also thinking medical testing. Like, if— 'Cause I know, twins and stuff are great for medical testing, 'cause you can give one something and not the other, And if they're identical twins, but these are not identical because... or...
Tom:
They are identical twins.
Jen:
Okay.
Tom:
Yes, they are.
Jen:
Okay, identical twins. So that would be good for medical testing, because there's one that is, you know... But if they're identical, then the DNA's the same, so hypothetically, if you test something on one, the other should be, you know, a good control.
Tom:
I'm not sure you can employ children to do that, though.
Jen:
Ah, okay.
Annie:
Oh, and they're kids. And Dylan has a sister, right?
Tom:
Dylan has a brother. Ashley has a sister.
Annie:
They're child actresses, child actors.
Jen:
Oh.
Tom:
Yes, they are. Emily, did you have that one?
Emily:
Yeah. I was gonna say that or models.
Jen:
Oh, Dylan Sprouse.
Annie:
I shouldn't have—
Jen:
Got it.
Tom:
Yes.
Jen:
It's the Sprouse twins.
Tom:
And Ashley?
Annie:
Mary Kate and Ashley.
Emily:
Mary Kate and Ashley.
Jen:
Mary Kate and Ashley.
Tom:
From the Olsen twins. Yes, absolutely. So, why is that important for their industry?
Jen:
You can only work so many hours during... when you're a child, as a minor.
Annie:
Those darn politicians screwed up my business, where I was hiring kids to work 12 hours a day in the factories, ugh. It's tough out here for robber barons like me.
Emily:
Now they just volunteer. They're just volunteers!
Tom:
That's Roblox I think you've described there.
Jen:
Mm.
SFX:
(Emily and Annie laugh)
Tom:
Due to labour laws, children can only be on set for a limited number of hours per day. So for roles featuring young children, it is common to switch in an identical twin, so the studio can continue shooting for longer.
Which means there is one question remaining from the start of the show.
Thank you to Van Thompson for sending this in.
How did a sea creature called the geography cone get the nickname the 'cigarette snail'?
Anyone wanna take a guess at that?
Emily:
Okay, so the first thing that came to mind is that there are a number of organisms that will live... This is so inappropriate. That will live in the butt of certain sea snails and slugs. And I was there sometimes.
Jen:
Sea cucumbers, yeah.
Emily:
People just need a cigarette after...
Tom:
(chortles) Oh! Oh, wow! Okay.
Emily:
(laughs) So I don't...
Tom:
Yeah, see where you were going there. See where you were going. I'm gonna divert us very quickly away from that one.
Emily:
So it doesn't have anything to do with—
Tom:
But I appreciate the lateral thinking. That's good. That's good.
Emily:
Well, but there are— But the fi— There are fish that live in...
Tom:
Yeah, yeah.
Emily:
butts.
Tom:
(chuckles)
Emily:
Is— Does it, like, secrete nicotine?
Tom:
It secretes something. Well, actually secrete's not the right word. So no. But...
SFX:
(group laughing)
Tom:
But in terms of substances. There's certainly a substance involved here.
Jen:
Is it like the ink that they shoot out, or something, that looks like smoke, so it's like they're smoking or something?
Annie:
That seems very plausible to me. Jen, you kind of have been the goat of Lateral, I think.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Tom:
Unfortunately, in this case, it does not resemble a cigarette in any way. Not the cigarette itself, not the smoke, nothing like that.
Jen:
So is it something cigarette-adjacent, like Camel or something like that?
Tom:
I would keep going on substance.
Annie:
Geography cone.
Tom:
Yeah.
Annie:
Should we talk about geography cone?
Tom:
It's a cone snail.
Emily:
A cone snail, okay.
Jen:
So those are the really poisonous ones, though, right?
Emily:
Venomous ones.
Jen:
Venomous ones, yeah.
Tom:
Yes, they are. Yes.
Emily:
Does it cause lung cancer?
Tom:
It causes something.
Jen:
Respiratory failure or something.
Tom:
It is highly venomous.
Jen:
Well, it's— I know they're highly— They will kill you if you get stung by one of these.
Tom:
Yep.
Jen:
Okay.
Tom:
Certainly before modern medical treatment.
Jen:
So like you have long enough for one last cigarette? (laughs) Is that it?
Tom:
You have long enough for one last cigarette. Absolutely right.
Jen:
(laughs) Oh, no.
Emily:
Oh.
Annie:
Oh my gosh, new thing to be grateful for today. At least I didn't get bit, stung, infected. What's the word?
Tom:
Sting, sting, yes.
Annie:
IYeah, I am so glad I haven't been... No matter how bad your day is going, at least you didn't get stung by a geography cone recently.
Tom:
At least you didn't get stung by the geography cone.
Thank you very much to all our players for running the gauntlet of surprisingly dark questions today.
Where can people find you? What's going on in your lives? We will start with Jen.
Jen:
Hi. I am @JenTheArchaeologist on both TikTok and YouTube. I primarily post on TikTok, but I also post the videos on YouTube as well. I do short-form just because grad school's hard. (laughs) So yeah, find me there.
Tom:
Annie.
Annie:
I am Depths of Wikipedia online on most social media sites. Instagram, TikTok, Bluesky, Twitter, YouTube maybe.
I'm gonna write a— My book will be out at some point. Don't really know when, and that's me.
And @AnnieRAU if you just wanna see what I'm thinking about, which is not always Wikipedia, believe it or not.
Tom:
And Emily.
Emily:
Hi, you can find me on my YouTube channel, youtube.com/thebrainscoop. I am also on Instagram posting shenanigans and short-form content, at egraslie, G-R-A-S-L-I-E. That's me!
Tom:
And if you want to know more about this show, you can do that at lateralcast.com, where you can also send in your own ideas for questions and join the Lateral Producer's Club. We are at @lateralcast basically everywhere, and there are full video episodes every week on Spotify.
Thank you very much to Emily Graslie.
Emily:
Hi, thanks so much for having me!
Tom:
Annie Rauwerda.
Annie:
Thank you!
Tom:
And Jen the Archaeologist.
Jen:
Thanks for having me.
Tom:
I've been Tom Scott, and that's been Lateral.
Episode Credits
| HOST | Tom Scott |
| QUESTION PRODUCER | David Bodycombe |
| EDITED BY | Julie Hassett at The Podcast Studios, Dublin |
| MUSIC | Karl-Ola Kjellholm ('Private Detective'/'Agrumes', courtesy of epidemicsound.com) |
| ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS | Van Thompson, Andrew, Z. Vamosy, Robyn, Dave Byrne, Tain Prefect, Chelsea J., CJ Mina |
| FORMAT | Pad 26 Limited/Labyrinth Games Ltd |
| EXECUTIVE PRODUCERS | David Bodycombe and Tom Scott |