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Episode 201: Vegan art
14th August, 2026 • Matt Gray, Rowan Ellis and Kip Heath face questions about slipper sizing, traffic troubles and acting amateurishness.
Transcription by Caption+
Tom:
Why did Amy knit some slippers that were twice the size of her feet?
The answer to that at the end of the show. My name's Tom Scott, and this is Lateral.
This is Lateral News, bringing you the latest developments in a puzzling world. Tonight's headline: three members of the public have voluntarily assembled in the name of national service despite having received no prior training. Our guests exchange pleasantries, unaware that they will shortly have to join forces against a fearsome common enemy: the questions. And now, as the nation holds its breath, we introduce today's brave warriors.
First, returning to the show, clinical scientist and science communicator, Kip Heath. Welcome back.
Kip:
Thank you for having me.
Tom:
Apologies for the sudden change in accent there. Sometimes I get handed a script where it just says, "Act like you're on a newsreel."
Kip:
And you did very well.
Tom:
(chuckles) How are you doing, Keith? What are you up to these days?
Matt:
Did you just say Keith?
Tom:
Yeah, I did, because 'Kip Heath' got abbreviated in my head, and I just completely automated... that.
Oh my god, it's been a day!
We might just leave that in, depending on how Kip feels about it.
How are you doing, Kip? How— What are you up to lately?
Kip:
I've been slightly busy. I'm currently on holiday. You can't see, but the Temple of Zeus is right outside my window, so... taking some much needed downtime and coming to speak to you lovely people.
Tom:
Well, thank you very much for taking time while you're on holiday to come and play a quiz.
Kip:
I'm from a quizzing family. It's what we do for fun.
Tom:
(chuckles) Well, good luck with the show today.
Also joining us, from the Queer Movie Podcast and her own YouTube channel: Rowan Ellis. Welcome back.
Rowan:
Thank you. Thank you for having me. Very excited to be... hopefully smart and also hopefully funny in various measures today.
Tom:
This is unrelated to anything to do with your work or Lateral, but you have the most amazing chair.
Matt:
(laughs)
Rowan:
Yes.
Tom:
It looks like it's been pulled from a country house, and you are the detective about to deliver the verdict at the end of a mystery.
Rowan:
Mhm, yes, I've gathered you all here today to tell you, that I got this on Facebook Marketplace. This and a sofa that matches, for £250. So, yes, thank you very much for your compliments on the very cheap armchair that is absolutely delightful.
Tom:
Tell me about the podcast. What have you been watching lately?
Rowan:
So I just watched a movie called Lesbian Space Princess, which is exactly what it sounds like.
I saw you perk up, Matt. It's so delightful.
It's gonna be at Flare Festival, which is the BFI's LGBTQ+ festival, which is happening in March. So I'm very excited to see it on the big screen as well.
Matt:
Big fan of a sapphic plot.
Tom:
Well, good luck to you on the show today, Rowan.
And as referenced there, the last member of our panel today, welcome back to the show, Matt Gray.
Matt:
Hello! Thank you for having me.
I was thinking that... now I've been on Lateral, that means, I think I've now been on half of all of the podcasts I listen to.
Tom:
(laughs)
Matt:
I listen to two podcasts.
Tom:
Two podcasts. I was...
SFX:
(group laughing)
Tom:
I worked that out just like a fraction before you said. I was... The words, "Oh, what other podcasts have you been on?" have— was halfway to my mouth, if I'm honest.
Matt:
Oh, I've been on more podcasts. I just don't listen to them.
SFX:
(both cackling)
Tom:
Well, today apparently I'm just teeing up Matt for the bit. So, good luck everybody.
Matt:
(giggles)
Tom:
There's gonna be a high bit quotient in this one. With formalities concluded, we return you now to scheduled puzzlement, beginning with question one.
Matt:
Newsreel, sounds more like a news fake.
Tom:
Thank you to Gareth Williams for this question.
In January 2025, why did a UK government agency produce a list that banned anything ending in -LUT or -HAG?
I'll say that again.
In January 2025, why did a UK government agency produce a list that banned anything ending in -LUT or -HAG?
Matt:
I know this one. I'm gonna sit out.
Tom:
Alright. Kip, Rowan, it's up to you.
Kip:
And Rowan's cat, most importantly.
Tom:
It's—
Rowan:
Yeah, and Rowan's—
Tom:
Kip, Rowan, and Rowan's cat that has come to sit in Rowan's lap.
Rowan:
And Persephone has come in to say hello.
Okay, interesting. I'm wondering— So I'm thinking about the... the American banning of a bunch of words and stuff on the American government website recently. But it was that they were taking things like— words like 'diversity', but that was also including other uses of the word 'diversity' from what I think they were attempting to target. So, like, 'biodiversity' also ended up— the pages end up getting deleted or censored, and I'm wondering if, like, the -HAG or... What was the other one? -LUT?
Kip:
Yeah. That's...
Tom:
-LUT.
Rowan:
Mm, that doesn't work so much, but I was wondering if it was, like, something to do with that, like, when you... trying to search a word, and it's— it kind of accidentally is putting all of the words that have that in it. But again, I guess it wouldn't be that it necessarily ended with those words.
Kip:
I guess our first thing is, are those words being targeted? Like, is it an accidental thing like the biodiversity, or is it intentionally... older, unmarried women, I suppose?
Rowan:
(chuckles) I'm trying to think of words that end in 'hag'.
Tom:
That will help, yes.
Kip:
I can think of one.
Tom:
What would that be, Kip?
Kip:
Oh, I couldn't possibly say on a PG-rated— Is it a PG-rated podcast?
Tom:
Well, it might help if you did.
Kip:
I mean, the British teenage place to go is 'shag'.
Rowan:
Mm.
Tom:
It is, yes.
Rowan:
Which I guess 'slut' is the other one, if you're doing -LUT.
Tom:
Yes it is.
Matt:
I know one of them's a type of bird.
Tom:
Yes, yeah, the...
Rowan:
Hmm.
Matt:
No, that joke has two meanings, and I wasn't— Oh, god.
SFX:
(group laughs uproariously)
Matt:
No! Take that (bleep) out.
Rowan:
No, take it out. Take it out.
Kip:
We're just gonna cancel Matt Gray on this podcast. It's all good.
SFX:
(guests cackling)
Rowan:
What was the exact wording of the question? It was...
Tom:
In January 2025, why did a UK government agency produce a list that banned anything ending in -LUT or -HAG? And you have identified the reason why.
Kip:
We just haven't identified the agency or the reason that they did it for. Right?
Tom:
Yes.
Kip:
I guess which agency is likely to have... Which agency is likely for this to have come from? Is it a double meaning for words?
Tom:
If you solve the agency, you will immediately solve the question. But short of iterating through every UK government agency, I suspect that may not be the best approach.
Rowan:
And it was the— that they had... banned the words? What was the...
Tom:
They had created a list that banned anything ending in those letters.
Rowan:
I— Maybe I'm being stupid, but that's confusing to me. It's like they ba— like, as in they banned the use of it? They ba— There was a list that had banned the words from where and from when
Tom:
Yeah.
Rowan:
and from—
Tom:
And only for 2025.
Rowan:
And only for 2025.
Kip:
Oh, is this to do with the fact that the date, because it's 2025...
Tom:
Yes, yeah.
Kip:
or something? Oh, I had a thought and then now the thought is gone. It's just disintegrated into the Grecian air.
Tom:
It was the start of a very good thought there. The year is important.
Kip:
Is it 'cause a '5' looks like an 'S'? Is that— Are we really going—
Tom:
Yes, it is.
Kip:
We are going for that.
Rowan:
Hmm.
Kip:
Okay.
Tom:
Yep. And in a video of mine you were on many years ago, Rowan, I think Kip's gonna be the one qualified to answer this.
Rowan:
Is it something to do with driving?
Tom:
Yes, it is.
Kip:
Oh.
Rowan:
Excellent, excellent, excellent. (giggles) This is on you, Kip, I fear.
Kip:
Oh, so it's the DVLA then. So it's a driving...
Tom:
Yes, the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency. So what are they banning?
Rowan:
Oh, the licence plates from being like 5L8... yeah.
Tom:
Yes. Yes.
Since the year was 2025, the licence plate would have the number 25 in the middle, so it would be 'AB25' and then three letters. And so they banned '25LUT' or '25HAG' to prevent licence plates with the words 'slut' and 'shag'.
Other plates banned at the same time: 'BA25 TAD' – I'll let y'all work that one out – and 'AA25 HOL'.
How much of that do we need to bleep? Couldn't tell you.
Rowan:
(laughs)
Matt:
What I will let you know though is there are... certainly will be ones they haven't thought of.
Tom:
Absolutely.
Rowan:
Mhm.
Matt:
(giggles)
Tom:
A friend of mine ran the numbers on the most expensive plates that the DVLA sells, and they are all the ones that are DR-numbers-WHO.
Matt:
Ah.
Tom:
Ones on resale may be more expensive, but the Doctor Who ones are top of the list.
Rowan:
This is also, the Tom's reference to a driving joke I made was we learned how to horse ride together to learn how to joust together for a video, and the person who was teaching us was using a lot of driving metaphors, and I joked that I didn't know— they were lost on me 'cause I'm gay and I don't know how to drive.
And then poor Thomas' comments were full of well-meaning straight allies trying to explain how their sister was a lesbian and could actually drive very well. And that this was...
SFX:
(Rowan and Matt laugh loudly)
Rowan:
Which was so funny to me and continues to be very funny to me to this day.
Tom:
Rowan, we will go over to you for the next question. Whenever you're ready.
Rowan:
This question's been sent in by Morgan Cole-Jones.
In old theatres, actors might hurriedly study their upcoming part if they were suddenly called upon to replace another. However, often there was not enough time to do this. Which modern term did this give rise to?
I'll read it again for you.
In old theatres, actors might hurriedly study their upcoming part if they were suddenly called upon to replace another. However, often there was not enough time to do this. Which modern term did this give rise to?
Matt:
I might have that instantly.
Tom:
I mean, we're all thinking the same word here, but it doesn't feel like a Lateral question if we're all thinking the same word.
Matt:
'Cause what I'm thinking is understudy, because you were studying under the stage.
Tom:
And I was thinking understudy because of something like that. Kip?
Kip:
It felt too easy, and it...
Matt:
Yeah.
Tom:
It all feels too easy, doesn't it?
Kip:
And also an under—
Rowan:
And it was, because...
Tom:
(laughs)
Rowan:
that's not the word.
Tom:
Right.
Matt:
Ahh, okay.
Kip:
Also, an understudy would normally have studied the part. That is kind of the point.
Matt:
Yeah.
Kip:
This kind of feels more
Tom:
Oh, yeah.
Kip:
like someone that was asked 45 minutes before the show started recording, for example.
Tom:
Mm.
Matt:
Oh, and the theatre's got loads of— I can't think of a single one right now, but it's got loads of terms that people use to...
Tom:
Yes.
Matt:
Like limelight and stuff like that, that people use these days without realising it's theatre-related.
Kip:
I mean, like a rush job or a botch job. They all feel a bit...
Matt:
Mm.
Kip:
not lateral, right?
Tom:
But if you don't know your script... you're gonna have to either have someone cueing you off stage... Like, either you need someone down in the front with cue cards...
Kip:
Oh.
Matt:
Yeah.
Tom:
Or, I mean, this is an old term, so it wouldn't have been an audio prompt, or you need to literally be holding the script and just ask the audience to accept that.
Matt:
Or auto cue or auto script or...
Tom:
Did you say this was an old term, Rowan?
Rowan:
It does say in old theatres.
Tom:
Okay.
Rowan:
The first record there— I do know when the first recorded use was, and it— I guess it depends, considering that theatre is as old as humanity, I guess it depends on what you think of as old, but it's, let's say late 1800s is what we're looking at.
Kip:
Pre-autoscreens then.
Rowan:
Mhm.
Kip:
So— But it says, as Tom has said, you can either go on with the script, which they did in some of the Shakespearean days, didn't they?
Tom:
Did they?
Matt:
They just winged it, didn't they, a bit?
Kip:
Yeah, you only had your part. So you didn't know... how it lined up with everybody else's necessarily.
Tom:
Did Matt just say the answer?
Matt:
Oh, winging it.
Rowan:
Matt did just say the answer.
Tom:
(laughs heartily)
Matt:
Because you come in from the wings or the answer— (laughs) Yeah!
SFX:
(Tom and Matt laugh profusely)
Rowan:
You— That is truly the most stumble into the answer I've ever seen on this podcast, truly.
Tom:
You didn't even trip over the answer. You just walked over it and kept going.
Rowan:
You just flew through it. Yeah, yeah.
Matt:
Wow!
Rowan:
That's exactly it.
Tom:
You were right. A lot of things in English come from theatre.
Matt:
Oh, 'cos the wings are the side parts of the stage, right?
Rowan:
Exactly, exactly.
So they would learn their part from the sides of the stage known as the wings. Sometimes they might have to improvise their part if they couldn't remember exactly, and so the concept of having to improvise to cover up for unpreparedness became known as 'winging it'.
And yeah, 1885 is the first recorded usage of it.
Kip:
Hm.
Rowan:
And there's a— What's really interesting to me as a theatre person is there's a lot of superstition and mythology around theatre.
But a huge part of it, which is still very controversial as to how true it is, is that we get a lot of our words from the theatre – that then go outside of the theatre – with sailing with the idea that, a lot of the time, the sailors were the ones who would come in when they came off ships and weren't on like a job, they would come and be the backstage stagehands for the theatre because they would know how to use ropes and tie knots, and they would be strong enough to pull open stuff.
And so a lot of ideas about—
Matt:
They know the ropes!
Rowan:
They know the ropes. Theatre rigging is the same as like, ship's rigging.
Matt:
Rigging!
Tom:
(laughs)
Rowan:
There's a load of things, but it's really controversial as to how accurate this is and whether it's not just a really fun thing. 'Cause, like, even whistling in the theatre is meant to be bad luck, and the idea was, like, whistling is, like, the boatswain's whistle of the ship that you didn't wanna, like, go over the commands that were being put down. But yeah, it's quite controversial as to what that is.
But theatre etymology is very interesting if people are looking to have a little look into after this question.
Tom:
This question was sent in by Sander Famil.
With the council's help, a child did something to slow down traffic in the Belgian town of Lo-Reninge. However, in 2025, it actually caused some cars to drive much faster. How?
I'll give you that one more time.
With the council's help, a child did something to slow down traffic in the Belgian town of Lo-Reninge. However, in 2025, it actually caused some cars to drive much faster. How?
Matt:
So the first question is, are both words of 'The Council' capitalised? Because if it's The Council, it sounds way more ominous than the city council.
Tom:
(laughs)
Matt:
(chuckles)
Tom:
With the assistance of The Council, a child will slow down these cars.
Matt:
(giggles)
Rowan:
The cou— Okay, I think that the child... was just— would just go out in front of traffic at random, and the drivers learnt, "Hey, we gotta slow down because we don't want the child to die."
But in— then at the very end of 2024, the child did something truly terrible. And they were like, "In fact, in 2025, we will be deliberately trying to speed to run over this evil child who's kicked a bag of cats or something."
And the council was like, "Fair enough. We're gonna figure something out for 2026."
Matt:
The council demands that the child be killed.
Rowan:
The council demands.
Tom:
(chuckles)
SFX:
(Rowan and Matt laugh profusely)
Kip:
I suppose one thing we don't know yet is how old the child was in 2025. Is this something a child did 50 years ago?
Matt:
(chuckles) Yes. And he's now a fully grown adult.
Rowan:
It's a 50-year-old man. I'm wondering if it is that, like, the council— You know one of those competitions where the council's like, "Hey, kids," you know, "design a poster that makes people wanna slow down," or, "Design something so that, that they have to read it," or something like that.
I don't know whether it's— the 2025 is significant because it's like, something happened, there was technology in 2025, like something went on, or whether it was just that it had been so long that, like, something wore off on the sign, or something happened that it became less effective maybe.
Tom:
Rowan, you've got the first part of it. Absolutely right, this is what the child did.
It was one of those design contests for, like... I mean... (cracks up) as we've established in this episode, Rowan, you don't drive, but... For those of us who can, you will see those—
Matt:
It's like those crayon drawings you get on a school zone sign or whatever.
Tom:
Yes, exactly one of those.
Matt:
But it's now causing cars to drive much faster.
Tom:
Some of them, yes.
Kip:
Has someone vandalised the sign maybe? Is the sign— Does the sign still look as it did when the child initially designed it? Or has someone changed the—
Tom:
Oh, yeah, yeah. The design hasn't changed.
Matt:
Okay, so it's not, like, a part of a letter rubbing off to reveal another word.
Tom:
No. That... (chuckles) In theory, something like that, like... maybe not rubbing off, that— this could happen, but in this case, the design hasn't changed.
Rowan:
Is it— Okay, so in which case I guess the meaning of the design potentially has changed, in that, like... and if it's only some cars. It's not some cars, it's some drivers, right? Like, the cars didn't magically speed up.
Tom:
No, it's some cars.
Rowan:
Ohh?
Matt:
Ohhh!
Kip:
Ohh.
Rowan:
Dri— Is it driverless cars?
Tom:
Yep.
Matt:
Oh, it's driverless cars?
Kip:
So it's reading it something.
Tom:
What were you thinking, Matt?
Matt:
I've driven some cars that if you're in variable cruise control, it automatically reads the speed limit signs, and then it sets your speed to that, which you have some control over, but it does it, and you realise it's got it wrong. So has it started... I don't know, has a snake and a something else become to look like a 30 instead of a 20?
Tom:
You're basically there. It's not driverless. You're right, Matt. This is the ones with the adaptive cruise control. The design hasn't actually changed. What might the child's drawing actually have had on it?
Rowan:
The speed limit signs.
Matt:
Oh, has the speed limit changed?
Tom:
Not quite. If you're an adult, you wouldn't phrase a safety sign this way.
Matt:
Ahh, is it drawn by Jeff, age three?
Tom:
(cackles)
Matt:
And it sees the three and thinks it's a 30 or something?
Tom:
No, no. The sign is very clear. It's a crayon drawing, but it is very clear. If you're an adult, you wouldn't design it this way. It's kind of saying the opposite of what you want it to say.
Matt:
Is it a fast speed limit sign that's crossed out, but not well enough for the thing to pick it up?
Tom:
Yeah, kind of. I'll give you that, Matt. The child had drawn a 130 sign... with the message, obviously, in the local language, "130 isn't good."
Rowan:
Wow.
SFX:
(Matt and Tom chuckle)
Matt:
Yeah, I—
Rowan:
That's so real, kiddo.
SFX:
(Rowan and Tom laugh)
Tom:
The speed limit itself was 30, and the kid had drawn a sign with an extra '1' in it.
Matt:
Having driven a few different models of cars that have that feature, I'd say pretty much all of them will not just pick up the road signs from your road, they will also pick up ones off to the side. And there's a good one in London where if you're going on the main road, there is a bridge over it with a 30 mph sign on it, and the main road is much faster. And the— I've had two different cars that would read the one from above from a different road pointing in a different direction and automatically slam the brakes on.
Tom:
Yes. In this case, it was the opposite problem. The government marked a 30 km/hr zone with a child sign that said, "130 isn't good." And the cars promptly read the 130 and followed its instructions.
Rowan:
That's terrifying.
Matt:
I've had 30 read as 80 before as well.
Tom:
Oh, yeah, lots of times.
Matt:
But most of the time, it's just showing a number on the screen rather than actually doing anything, but...
Tom:
Matt, your question please.
Matt:
This question has been sent in by Lee and Alex Watson-Jones.
Decades ago, audio engineers at the BBC's Television Centre often rewired mixing desks so that pushing a fader up lowered the volume, and pulling it down made things louder. Why?
Decades ago, audio engineers at BBC's Television Centre often rewired mixing desks so that pushing a fader up lowered the volume, and pulling it down made things louder. Why?
Kip:
For the non-tech person on the call, is that opposite to normal? It feels like it should be.
Rowan:
Mm.
Tom:
Yeah. Usually, you would pull the fader towards you, and down to lower the volume, and moving it up, as it were, like away from you, it would make it higher.
Kip:
Hm.
Tom:
So...
Matt:
Thing up equals volume up, thing down equals volume down is the usual way things like that are done.
Kip:
Just checking in case there was something that I was missing entirely.
Tom:
Does this have anything to do with the Broom Cupboard, Matt? I'm gonna need to explain the Broom Cupboard, aren't I?
Matt:
(chuckles) Please do. I'd like to hear how you explain it.
Tom:
Okay. So, British television used to have in-vision continuity announcers between programmes. So a programme would end, and someone would appear on screen saying, "This is what's next, this is what's coming up", and then they'd go to the next show.
That sort of fell out of fashion, but it stayed around for children's TV programming. There would be a host between the programmes.
And what was originally just a tiny little studio that they did this announcement from became known as the Broom Cupboard, and kids would send in their drawings, and it would get pinned up there. And it was basically a Twitch stream, like 30, 40 years earlier, 'cause you've just got this friendly person who's reacting to the stuff that's gonna be on— that's on screen. They're not in vision during the programme.
Anyway, point being, here's where I think— here's why I think this, Matt. If you— Like the early days, they would've had both an engineer and an announcer in the studio.
Matt:
(nods silently)
Tom:
And the mixing desk would've been between them. So when they went to having one person doing that, could they... Like, it was either rotate the entire desk so the presenter runs their own microphone, or rewire just the fader they're gonna use. Is it for the presenter being on the other side?
Matt:
No.
Tom:
Oh.
Matt:
(belly laughs)
Tom:
Well, that was—
Rowan:
That was fun, then. That was nice.
Tom:
That was a minute and a half diversion about the Broom Cupboard that nobody needed. Carry on.
Matt:
(laughs) It wasn't done for any broadcast quality or sound engineering reason direction.
Rowan:
Is it— Was it just for pranks, Matt?
Tom:
(laughs)
Rowan:
Was it just that sound engineers are really fun jokesters, and they were like, "Tee-hee-hee, it's April the 1st"?
Matt:
(laughs)
Tom:
We're gonna blow out every speaker in this building. Good luck.
Rowan:
Mhm.
Matt:
I would say it was almost the opposite, 'cause it helped avoid embarrassing moments on air.
Rowan:
Is it because it's easier to push in a panic, if someone's doing something or saying something, and they should be muted or whatever, that it's easier to, like, "B— Oh, okay, let me just slam it, slide it to mute them"?
Tom:
Oh no, I can... I mean, Matt may say that's right now, but my thought on that would be immediately, oh, hell no. You learn very quickly what that feel— Like, I have accidentally hit – back when I was doing university radio – accidentally hit a track, realised that there was a swear word coming up that I'd forgotten about, and suddenly gone, "Whoa, well, no, grab, grab!" Like, you grab instinctively.
Matt:
Rowan, you're getting close, actually.
Tom:
Okay.
Matt:
And modern studios don't usually do this anymore.
Tom:
Huh.
Matt:
Like, I've got a background in radio, and I've— one of my tasks is training people how to use studios, and training someone who's been away for a while or not done their own technology for a while, who has used, what I would call the back-to-front way of doing things, takes quite a lot of practice to get that as their muscle memory again.
Tom:
Huh.
Kip:
Was this unique to the BBC, or is this something that was done in multiple networks? Were they doing it just...
Matt:
It's known for being a BBC thing, yeah.
Kip:
Okay.
Rowan:
Mm. Yeah, 'cause I was kind of wondering if it was the— it was a time at which the BBC was... the people who would be controlling the fader were people who were maybe more used to using commercial type... like ways of listening to audio, and that the— it was the opposite way around. But I guess if it was specifically the BBC, that wouldn't necessarily make sense.
Matt:
It is partly about protecting the expensive equipment.
Tom:
Huh.
Matt:
If you go back, Rowan, to what you were thinking of earlier, of something that might happen in a studio maybe.
Tom:
Knocking over a mug of tea into the fader.
Matt:
The BBC training materials did mention health and safety.
Kip:
Oh, 'cause the BBC Cymru Studios, they deliberately put the cupholders underneath. They're in a separate space for that reason.
Tom:
(laughs)
Kip:
Look who went on the tour.
Matt:
In my career, I have lost count of the number of mugs of tea that I have cleaned out of the desk. In this case, this isn't the answer that we're looking for, but it is studio accidents category.
Tom:
Huh.
Kip:
Is it falling on it and accidentally hitting that one particular fader up?
Matt:
Yeah.
Kip:
You're nodding.
Matt:
In short, yes. It was designed in this way so then... that any accidents would reduce the sound levels to zero.
Tom:
Huh.
Kip:
You can tell the accident prone person.
SFX:
(Matt and Tom laugh)
Tom:
Oh, yeah, 'cause I'm 100% Grace here(!)
Matt:
(laughs)
Some decades ago, the BBC's old TV studios deliberately reversed their mixer faders, so then pushing them upward reduced the volume. The idea was that if an engineer slipped, fainted, sat on the desk, or accidentally caught a sleeve on the controls, the volume would be lowered. And this was a fail-safe design to help prevent feedback, blown speakers, and accidental on-air noise.
The practice died out as studio layouts improved, and also 1970s-style shirt cuffs became a thing of the past.
SFX:
(Tom and Rowan guffaw)
Matt:
So I've heard this several times from people that have been in the industry ages. People getting their sleeves caught on a fader...
Tom:
Ahh.
Matt:
was very common because people used to turn up to work wearing shirts. And you can catch it under a fader very easily. These days you don't really get that. (laughs)
Tom:
'Cause everything's compressed to the same volume anyway.
Matt:
(chuckles) Yeah.
Tom:
Thank you to Marcel for this question.
In the 1990s, a Polish advertising agency decided to set up a yacht charter company and shoot an ad about boats for the brand Bols. Why?
I'll say that again.
In the 1990s, a Polish advertising agency decided to set up a yacht charter company and shoot an ad about boats for the brand Bols. Why?
Kip:
Bols, as in the Dutch drink company?
Matt:
Yeah, I thought spirits is Bols.
Kip:
B-O-L-S.
Tom:
Yes.
Matt:
Like, the reason I would set up a yacht charter company rather than charter a yacht from a yacht chartering company would be tax fraud, I think.
Tom:
(belly laughs)
Matt:
(laughs) So, was this tax fraud?
Tom:
Lateral: the answer is tax fraud.
Matt:
(giggles)
Tom:
Oh, that's gonna be out of context. Never mind.
Rowan:
(laughs) I, as someone who has watched the terrible reality show Below Deck, I do know that on chartered yachts, it's almost required that you drink alcohol. And so it's clearly not the case that it's like, "Oh, you know, for safety, they don't allow you to have alcohol on yachts," so they had to do their own charter thing. I'm like, no, I think that's kind of the whole— their whole deal, is that they get drunk, and that's kind of what you do on a yacht.
But is it something to do with, like... having only that type of alcohol, if it is an alcohol company within the yacht, in order to be able to... to do advertising on it maybe?
Kip:
Because setting up your own chartered yacht company is either tax fraud, as Matt says, or it's just very, very poor financial planning.
Tom:
(laughs)
Kip:
Y'know?
Matt:
Or if not tax fraud, then like... bankruptcy fraud and stuff like that. Like, you just bankrupt the company and just don't have to pay for hiring the yacht. Is...
Tom:
(giggles) Thanks for that tax advice, Matt.
SFX:
(Matt and Rowan laugh loudly)
Tom:
I will move you away from tax advice.
Matt:
I mean, I don't know this much about high value fraud.
SFX:
(Tom and Matt laugh)
Tom:
Your Honour.
Matt:
(blurts chuckle)
Tom:
You've twigged alcohol very early. Good knowledge, Kip, that Bols is an alcohol company.
It is not to do with fraud. Certainly, you're... (sigh) you're along the lines on technicalities and regulations here.
Matt:
Licencing. Oh, no, but that— Alcohol licencing's normally about selling it, and they're not selling— Well, they're selling it 'cause it's an advert, but they're not directly selling it in the advert, are they?
Kip:
Yeah. It's... I mean, so Bols is a Dutch company, so... Although it's a Polish...
Tom:
Mhm.
Kip:
advertising company, so they might not be filming off the coast of the Netherlands.
Matt:
International waters?
Rowan:
Mm.
Kip:
That was what I was wondering, 'cause you have— it's like those booze cruises off to France from the UK, isn't it, where you go off, and you— but you can't bring any of the alcohol back. You have to drink it first. This makes it sound like I drink a lot more than I actually do.
SFX:
(Tom and Rowan laugh)
Tom:
Again, certainly the right area. Certain restrictions in certain countries, yes, but you don't need international waters for this one.
Rowan:
If it's— If you're chartering a yacht, rather than just it being a company where you have— it's to do with going somewhere specific, is it the destination that's useful or important rather than a—
Tom:
Oh, no. This is very much about the journey and not the destination. What might have been restricted in Poland?
Matt:
A percentage of alcohol.
Kip:
Alcohol that's not vodka?
Matt:
'Cause I know Sweden's got booze shops where you can get, like, beer and low-volume wine in supermarkets, but anything stronger has to be very licenced. Is it similar in Poland?
Tom:
I don't know about sales, but something about alcohol certainly was.
Matt:
Storage of quantity?
Tom:
Remember this is an advertising agency.
Rowan:
Is it the advert where you can't advertise alcohol, in the way that you can't advertise cigarettes in the UK?
Tom:
(nods silently)
Rowan:
You— It kind of is a thing that you're not allowed to advertise alcohol. So in order to shoot the commercial, they had to be not in that country anymore.
Tom:
Okay. Very close.
Matt:
Did they make an advert for a yacht charter company that just happened to be full of Bols stuff, and actually the yacht charter company's entire purpose was to make an ad for Bols subliminally?
Tom:
Okay, yes. You are so close, Matt. That's basically what happened.
Rowan:
That's so funny.
Tom:
They set up a yacht charter company so they had something to genuinely advertise, and they are genuinely advertising these boats. This is Poland. I don't expect anyone here to speak Polish. But could you take a guess at what they might have been doing there?
Kip:
Were they recording something in Dutch over the top?
Tom:
Something about the Polish language.
Rowan:
Is it that the word for boat is the word— or the word for yacht is 'bol'? There's some connection where it's like the same word that means that they can say phrases, and they can do— and it ends up basically saying, "Buy our alcohol"?
Tom:
Kip, you said vodka specifically earlier, and you're right. That is also the Polish word for 'vodka'. The Polish word for 'boat' is 'łódka'.
Matt:
Ohh.
Tom:
So what might this have sounded like?
Matt:
Buy our vodka rather than buy our boat.
Tom:
Yes. It— Could you—
Matt:
"Have a lovely evening with our vodka" rather than "have a lovely evening with our boat".
Tom:
Yes. That was basically what they did.
They advertised the boat. They advertised the hell out of these boats. They said many good things about the boats that they were providing.
And every single time, it sounded very, very close to vodka.
Matt:
It's like Santander using Ant and Dec.
Tom:
Yes.
Matt:
But worse. Or better.
Tom:
(laughs) Better. Definitely better. Kip, we will get your question please.
Kip:
So this question has been sent in by Lindsay Castle.
In 1841, an American named John G. Rand made painting more vegan, which helped to spark the Impressionist art movement. What did he invent, and how did it change art forever?
I'll read that one more time.
In 1841, an American named John G. Rand made painting more vegan, which helped to spark the Impressionist art movement. What did he invent, and how did it change art forever?
Rowan:
Okay, so things that could be non-vegan...
Tom:
Yeah.
Rowan:
That are— that do— that is art, is paintbrushes in terms of animal hair used...
Tom:
I was thinking, yeah.
Rowan:
Where I guess depending how strict the vegan is, in terms of animal products of horse hair brushes. Also paints, because I know that... I don't have any id— Okay, this is a word that I've never heard said out loud. Only written down, but it's... is it like... cochineal or...
Matt:
Oh, cochineal.
Rowan:
Cochineal.
Matt:
It's a red colouring, yeah.
Rowan:
Yeah, like that was beetles, right? Like, so I'm wondering, I feel like those are two really obvious ones. I don't know if there's any other art supplies we can think of that might be non-vegan to begin with.
Matt:
And I was wondering about... You can get a lot of thickeners made from animal products as well. So if it's...
Rowan:
Mm.
Matt:
Or like oil paints, did the oil actually come from oil of snake or whatever? I'm imagining witches making paint now.
Tom:
(laughs)
Matt:
Snake oil is the phrase I'm looking for, isn't it? So yes, that would be what the vegan paint stuff is called. That would be the snake oil.
SFX:
(Matt and Tom laugh)
Tom:
I did once see someone actually selling snake oil. It was at a crafts market in... I think somewhere in Australia. There were just all, you know, it's all those little independent stalls set up, and I swear one of them was selling like oil from snakes as some sort of beauty treatment entirely unironically. And I just didn't wanna approach in case it was like a prank for a TV show, 'cause it just did not seem real.
Matt:
Does sound Australian, though. (guffaws)
Tom:
It does, yes.
Matt:
The other thing I can think of is canvases. 'Cause they can paint on canvas linen...
Tom:
Oh, yeah.
Matt:
Wooden boards. But they generally get coated or covered. So like you'll get a canvas that's covered in white goo as a painting base.
Tom:
I think there's still vellum used in some places for canvases, which I think, I'm pretty sure is an animal product, but... it's not like that's a— like, you— The fabric is canvas. It's called canvas because it is canvas.
Matt:
Hmm.
Tom:
I think. If that's wrong, that's gonna be really embarrassing.
Matt:
So the other thing I'm thinking of is, it mentions Impressionism here. And the Impressionist paintings I can think of are... more on the smearier end of...
Tom:
(laughs)
Rowan:
This is true.
Matt:
paintings rather than the detailed end.
Tom:
The last time you were on, Matt, we had an art historian on the panel. And I just...
Matt:
(laughs profusely)
Tom:
It's a shame she couldn't make it for this one, because "on the smeary end" is just such a wonderful phrase.
Rowan:
I was thinking that as well.
Matt:
Oh, come on, you're not gonna look at any Monet or Turner and go, "Yeah, there's some definition in that." You're going, "No, I can see the cataracts in those lilies."
Tom:
Ooh, good deep cut on Monet there.
Matt:
(guffaws)
Tom:
As indeed was his cataract operation.
Matt:
(laughs uproariously)
Rowan:
Mm, mm, mm. I don't know if this is relevant, but as someone who also doesn't know about art history, but as well as smeary, I feel like a lot of the Impressionist paintings I can think of are very... on location, shall we say? Like, they're outside, or they're...
Matt:
Yeah.
Rowan:
Someone's travelled somewhere. Even the ones that are of people are, like, of ballerinas at the ballet or stuff like that, and I'm wondering if it's something to do with the portability of something or the... If that makes sense. Something— there's a reason why that made it easier to do, where you were able to go somewhere and make something fast enough.
Like, it dried fast enough or it was portable enough to be able to go out and do these kind of quick paintings of the landscape that wasn't so detailed. It was more impressionistic. And then be able to return, rather than, like, going somewhere, setting it up, and then having to, like, do that sort of, like, posing for a portrait for a million hours kind of energy.
Matt:
Yeah, you no longer need your live cow with you for the beef gelatin.
Tom:
(laughs)
Rowan:
That's so— That's it. You've— We've cracked it, Matt. We've cracked it.
Matt:
Are we on the right lines here, Kip?
Kip:
I would say the outside section, it's a little bit like the question earlier. It's a backwards solving.
Tom:
Someone figured out vegan sunblock, and all the artists were okay spending time outside now.
Matt:
Leather.
Rowan:
Hmm.
Matt:
Would you wrap your tools up in leather, or...
Kip:
What do you mean by tools?
Matt:
Like, brushes and pots and...
Tom:
But in 1841, there wasn't a big vegan movement. Like, there were some religious vegans. There were a few practicing vegans for ethical reasons, but it's not like it was anything even close to mainstream. Like, most of the painters would not have cared if something was vegan or not.
Matt:
Unless it's, by being vegan, that makes it more disposable, so you can have more of them, or could ruin them?
Tom:
Or cheaper or better or, yeah.
Rowan:
Hmm.
Matt:
So, like, if your brushes, you have to kill a horse every time you want to paint something. Sorry, you don't kill a horse for its hair, but—
Tom:
Or it made it much cheaper. Like, painters used to reuse canvases all the time, right? You can X-ray some famous paintings and find other versions of the thing they would scrape off and paint over.
Kip:
You've talked a lot about the different types of tools and the canvas, but what's the most important thing?
Matt:
Your eyes.
Tom:
Having something to paint. Having a subject.
Matt:
An easel? Eyes. Paint.
Kip:
Yeah.
Matt:
So it's vegan paint?
Kip:
The paint is not vegan.
Matt:
It's what you're carrying the paint around in.
Rowan:
Yeah. Was it like— Okay, okay. Oh, oh! As someone who has bought paints, has ADHD, has decided to be a painter for approximately a week, and then has forgotten about it, and has come back seven years later to unusable paints...
Tom:
(laughs)
Rowan:
Is it some way of stor— But I guess— Well, I guess maybe the— Okay, I'll just say this 'cos I guess what I'm realising is that I don't know how paint used to be stored. But is there, like, a storage... that is used to be stored in something that would have to be airtight or...
Matt:
Haggis.
Rowan:
Yeah, like organs. Oh, I feel like they were always making, like, balls out of organs and bladders and hearts and lungs and stuff. So is it— Was it in—
Matt:
Yeah. Like an intestinal tube.
Rowan:
Yeah. Was it always— Yes! Was it in, like, sausage meat intestines or something, and then they—
Tom:
That's— No! But that's if you need a tube to squeeze paint out of, what are you gonna use before 1841? You're gonna use an intestine. You're gonna use a sausage casing. Did they invent artificial tubes for paint?
Matt:
Yes, 'cause the sausage casing will go off, and then you'll have smelly sausage and smelly paint. Well, and it would go rancid. It'd probably make it look different as well.
Rowan:
Well, it wouldn't necessarily because if you'll— If you think about, like... organs were used a lot of the time as, like, ways of storing liquids of some kind. Because they were watertight in many ways, and that they could be dried out or anything like that. So was it that it— that Tom's absolutely right, it was nothing to do with needing to be vegan. It was actually the problem they were solving was something different in terms of it lasting long enough in order to, like, store the paints for a long time, that you could take them back out with you, and then you could... And it just happened to be vegan?
Kip:
Yeah. So I think Matt slightly earlier said about paint tins, which was the answer, but not in the way that he was saying. So in 1841, John Rand patented the collapsible metal paint tube. Before this, artists stored mixed paints in fragile pig bladders, which were pierced to dispense colour and then quickly dried out when they were exposed to air.
Tom:
Pig bladders?!
Kip:
Mm, delightful, isn't it? Rand's tin tube, the ancestor of today's aluminium and plastic versions, allowed paint to stay fresh, resealable, and ready to use. This made it easier to paint 'en plein air'. Apologies to my French family. Outdoors. Helping fuel the rise of Impressionism. Artists could now carry a full palette into fields and streets. Renoir's son later said, "Without paints in tubes, there would be no Cézanne, no Monet, no Sisley, or Pissarro."
Tom:
One final thing then, which is this question sent in by Annette Lee. Thank you, Annette.
Why did Amy knit some slippers that were twice the size of her feet?
Any quick guesses from the panel before I give this to the audience?
Rowan:
Is it that they wanted the shoes to be extremely solid, and that they could— they already had huge knitting needles, and so there was loads of space between the knits, and then they would shrink them in the wash? So when it was shrunk, it would be tight and perfect.
Tom:
Yes. Yes, it is, Rowan.
Matt:
Wow!
Tom:
Absolutely right. Some knitted slippers—
Rowan:
I—
Tom:
Oh, sorry, go ahead.
Rowan:
I have very recently shrunk a woolen thing in the wash.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Rowan:
And that's how I know.
Tom:
Deliberately or accidentally?
Rowan:
Accidentally, Tom.
Tom:
Ohhh!
Rowan:
(giggles)
Tom:
Yes. Some knitted slippers are designed to be felted or fulled after construction. So you make an oversized loose pair using wool yarn. You run them through hot cycles in the washing machine. The wool fibres mat together, and the slippers come out at the right size.
Thank you to our players. What's going on in your lives? Where can people find you?
We will start with Matt.
Matt:
Go watch my YouTube videos. Type in 'Matt Gray is Trying' into YouTube, and you will find me having a go at people's weird and wonderful jobs.
Tom:
Rowan.
Rowan:
If you type up 'Rowan Ellis' into the internet, I guess, you can find me, on YouTube especially is where I do my video essays. You can find me over there.
Tom:
And Kip.
Kip:
You can find me on most social media channels as Kip Heath and occasionally around London on comedy nights.
Tom:
And if you wanna know more about this show, you can do that at lateralcast.com, where you can also send in your own ideas for questions. We are at @lateralcast basically everywhere, and there are full video episodes on Spotify.
Thank you very much to Kip Heath.
Kip:
Thank you.
Tom:
Rowan Ellis.
Rowan:
Thank you very much.
Tom:
Matt Gray.
Matt:
You are very welcome.
Tom:
I've been Tom Scott, and that's been Lateral.
Episode Credits
| HOST | Tom Scott |
| QUESTION PRODUCER | David Bodycombe |
| EDITED BY | Julie Hassett at The Podcast Studios, Dublin |
| MUSIC | Karl-Ola Kjellholm ('Private Detective'/'Agrumes', courtesy of epidemicsound.com) |
| ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS | Annette Lee, Lindsay Castle, Morgan Cole-Jones, Lee & Alex Watson-Jones, Gareth Williams, Sander Famil, Marcel |
| FORMAT | Pad 26 Limited/Labyrinth Games Ltd |
| EXECUTIVE PRODUCERS | David Bodycombe and Tom Scott |