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Episode 202: A sudden square
21st August, 2026 • Sage the Bad Naturalist, Evan Heling and Katelyn Heling face questions about perilous pieces, mysterious Mercedes and culled cookware.
Transcription by Caption+
Tom:
Which game contains 54 identical-looking pieces that must be manufactured deliberately badly?
The answer to that at the end of the show. My name's Tom Scott, and this is Lateral.
Welcome back to Lateral, which is technically a panel game, but also feels increasingly like a social experiment to see how long polite people will tolerate confusion. Participants are presented with strange prompts, rewarded with mild satisfaction, and sent home with at least one fact they're not entirely sure is true.
Today's volunteers have agreed to take part under laboratory conditions, although 'laboratory' here just means a room with some cables and a microphone in it.
So first, welcome to our laboratory... Ah, now, see, last time, I got called out for treating them as one unit, but I'm gonna do it anyway. Welcome to the lab, Evan and Katelyn.
Evan:
Thanks for having us.
Katelyn:
Hello.
Evan:
You know, Tom, I— It's more than mild satisfaction. I feel pride.
Tom:
(laughs)
Evan:
I give myself a solid pat on the back after solving these questions.
Tom:
Which, given you're wearing a shirt that says, "Words are hard"...
Katelyn:
(chuckles)
Tom:
Are you repping your own merchandise here? 'Cause that's a good—
Evan:
Yeah.
Katelyn:
Always. Always.
Tom:
(laughs)
Katelyn:
I'm also— I chose this one on purpose in case we don't get a question right. It says, "I don't want solutions. I just want to be upset."
Tom:
(belly laughs)
Evan:
See, the thing is, this merch is me. I identify with this.
SFX:
(group giggling)
Tom:
It's not so mu— You don't have your own names on there. You don't have your own advert on there. It is just your – ooh, I hate the words – but personal brand.
Katelyn:
Yeah.
SFX:
(Evan and Katelyn chuckle)
Tom:
Now, we're recording this several months before this episode goes out, so, with the slight trepidation that I always ask this question, what are you working on? What might be coming out soon, or what might be out by now?
Evan:
Well, what do you think we could make with 16 gallons of resin and 30 days worth of time?
Tom:
(cracks up) I don't know, but I'm scared.
Katelyn:
It's a solid resin bench that we're trying to carve to look like the ocean. We're currently in the middle of this project. It should be out by the time this episode is out. So I hope that future us are like, "We did it,"
Evan:
And it looks great!
Katelyn:
'Cause right now, we're like, "What are we doing?"
Evan:
It was worth it.
Tom:
Well, very best of luck to you with the show and you with the bench. I feel like that was one of you each, and I— that's not how I meant it, but...
Joining us, coming back to the show for a second time, Sage the Bad Naturalist. Welcome back.
Sage:
Hello. Hi.
Tom:
How did you find your first episode last time?
Sage:
It was fantastic. I had a great time.
Tom:
As we record this, you are getting perilously close to 100,000 YouTube subscribers.
Sage:
Ya-hah.
Tom:
You are now doing so much all of a sudden. Like, how is it working for Crash Course?
Sage:
Oh, dude, it's like, again, winning— I keep saying this, winning the nerd lottery. It is exactly what I hoped it would be. Everyone is an absolute dweeb. I can pull out all my—
Tom:
Brackets, [complimentary].
Sage:
Yes! I can pull out all my nerdiest and nichest humor, and it lands. (gasps) Oh my gosh.
Tom:
(chuckles)
Sage:
Yeah, no, and an honor, a pleasure, and a dream come true.
Tom:
Well, very best of luck to you on this show as well.
As you don your lab coats, it's time to begin experimenting with question one.
Thank you to Jacob Star for this question.
In November 2025, a red square formed in Oslo that meant several vehicles were unable to move for several minutes. Why?
I'll say that again.
In November 2025, a red square formed in Oslo that meant several vehicles were unable to move for several minutes. Why?
Katelyn:
So this was very recent.
Evan:
Oslo.
Sage:
'Formed' is an interesting word.
Tom:
Mhm.
Evan:
A red square emerges.
Tom:
(chuckles)
Evan:
Or formed.
Sage:
Materialized.
Katelyn:
Is it... So it's something that caused traffic issues. Like, cars weren't able to move. Was it a— Was it, like, people forming a red square as a protest? In the streets? That blocked traffic?
Evan:
So it didn't exist before, and then it did exist.
Tom:
Mhm.
Katelyn:
And it prevented cars from moving.
Evan:
'Cause yeah, 'cause yeah, 'cause—
Sage:
Oh, wait. Was it like a— Are— What color are the buses in Oslo?
Tom:
They are red.
Are you remembering something you may have seen here, Sage? Or is this just a good guess?
Sage:
No, it's just a guess.
Tom:
Oh, brilliant! Okay. 'Cause this went around like, the nerdy infrastructure parts of the internet. I got this question through, and was like, "Oh yeah, I remember this!"
But if you're guessing this, go for it.
Sage:
Well, is it, like, at a roundabout where the buses are the equivalent of, like, if you were to make, like, transcribe a square around the roundabout where all the buses ma— got stuck, and they're like...
Did the buses make a square around the roundabout, and then they couldn't round...?
Tom:
Yes, they did.
Sage:
(laughs) No!
Tom:
And if that's a guess out of nowhere...
Sage:
That's so embarrassing!
Tom:
I have no idea how you got that! Yes!
Now, this wouldn't happen with most things. Like, yes, you're right, the buses in Oslo are red. What else might be true about those buses? This is— I— There are only a few cities that have these.
Sage:
Are they accordion buses?
Tom:
Yes, they are. They are the big, long
Sage:
I love a bendy bus.
Tom:
bendy buses.
Sage:
Ooh, I love a bendy bus.
Tom:
Well, can I ask, Sage – you may not want to answer this. Whereabouts in the world are you that you have an American accent, are, like, several time zones behind me, and know about bendy buses?
Sage:
I have a degree in urban planning.
Tom:
There we go!
Evan:
Ah.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Tom:
And it all makes sense!
Sage:
I live in Los Angeles, but yes, I have a bachelor's degree in urban planning. That's why.
Tom:
There we go, yes.
Four articulated buses converged on the same small roundabout, and it gridlocked the road junction so perfectly that they made a red square
Sage:
That's awesome!
Tom:
and none of them could move forward.
Several vehicles were inside the square of buses.
Sage:
No! (laughs uproariously)
Like, in the inner lane? Was it a double lane roundabout?
Tom:
Yep, it was a double lane roundabout. And eventually, they managed to negotiate it, and the blockage was cleared.
The same thing happened at the same roundabout in 2019.
Katelyn:
Oh, no!
SFX:
(Evan and Katelyn laugh)
Evan:
Those bus drivers need to look out for each other, you know?
Katelyn:
They need a sign of the red square that formed as a reminder.
Sage:
No more than two buses may enter at once!
Evan:
(chuckles)
Sage:
Wow. I was— If you had not said the year, I was so sure this was gonna be about the day that, I think it's Norway, the day they switched which side of the road they drive on.
Tom:
That was Sweden... and the reason that is not a Lateral question is because on the form, on the Lateral website, on lateralcast.com, where you can send in your own ideas for questions, there is a list of the questions we have received a lot. And unfortunately, the day Sweden changed sides is on that list. (chuckles)
Sage:
Fantastic.
SFX:
(Evan and Katelyn laugh)
Tom:
Sage, after that brilliant solve out of nowhere, it is absolutely your question. Take it away.
Sage:
Oh, alright.
This question has been sent in by Adam.
Why do finches in Mexico City protect their families if they have more aromatic butts?
Tom:
(guffaws breathily)
Sage:
I'll ask one...
Katelyn:
(chuckles)
Evan:
Wait a minute.
Sage:
(laughs)I'll ask again.
Tom:
We definitely need that one again.
Sage:
Uh-huh. How do finches in Mexico City protect their families if they have more aromatic butts?
Katelyn:
Is it the finches with the aromatic butts or the families with aromatic butts?
Sage:
How do finches in Mexico City protect their families – so the finches are protecting their families – if they have more aromatic butts? I leave to you which they— which does the they...
Evan:
Now... aromatic does not mean pleasant smelling.
Sage:
Not necessarily.
Katelyn:
Just mean more smell.
Evan:
It just means more smell.
Sage:
Yes.
Evan:
So...
Tom:
There is a big difference between smell, scent, and aroma.
Sage:
Yes.
Evan:
Go— Tell us more, Tom.
Tom:
Oh, I mean, I can go into linguistics and deep things on subtext and context. But generally, like, "Oh, this has a scent". "This has a smell". "This has an aroma". They all rely a lot on context.
And 'aromatic' is a word that's normally associated with herbs and pleasant smells, rather than 'smelly' or... like, 'scented' can go either way.
Evan:
Yeah, but— or was the question worded that way just to deceive us?
Tom:
(giggles) Yeah.
Katelyn:
(laughs)
Evan:
Just 'cause they knew you would know the... connotation?
Tom:
Mm
Evan:
Instead of denotation.
Tom:
I'm also going to question the word 'butts'.
Sage:
Ooh.
Tom:
Because if you are talking about a mammal, yes, it has a butt. But a bird has a... cloaca, cloaca? I'm not sure how to—
Sage:
They do have cloacas, yes.
Tom:
Klo-ey-ka. Okay.
Katelyn:
It's the everything.
Tom:
Yes. The butt refers to the whole area, not just the cloaca. Can't believe I'm having this conversation on camera.
Sage:
Derriere, if you will.
Tom:
Derriere, yes.
Sage:
I think similarly, aromatic is something of a, just a pleasant term that we're using for polite society.
Tom:
Okay. Okay.
Sage:
I don't think we're saying it's aromatic as in, like, "Wow, I sure would like the potpourri here to..."
SFX:
(Tom and Evan laugh)
Sage:
"...of this finch in my bathroom."
Katelyn:
I wonder if it's something like, you know, animals marking their territory. Like, leaving their scent behind. I wonder if the finches with the more aromatic butts keep away either other finches or predators or something from their territory of their nest.
Sage:
I will offer a corrective clue. Their buttocks are not naturally more aromatic.
Katelyn:
Oh?
Evan:
Oh, so, oh, oh, maybe those finches go and they get the smell of a bigger predator.
Katelyn:
And they sit in it.
Evan:
And then— And— Well, no, they absorb it with their butts. And...they sit in it.
Katelyn:
So, by sitting in it?
Tom:
(chuckles)
Evan:
Okay, yes, yes. Whatever.
And then they take that smell back to their family, and then other animals are like, "(sniffs) Oh, that smells like the lead predator of the area. Everyone run away."
Sage:
You're partially so right.
Tom:
(laughs) And partially so wrong.
Katelyn:
Instead of sitting in it, what if they are, like, eating seeds out of the droppings of bigger predators, and then when they pass those seeds, it scents their butts?
Sage:
You're less right.
SFX:
(Tom and Evan laugh)
Katelyn:
Okay, yeah. Okay.
Tom:
Nature is gross in so many ways.
Sage:
I will ask you this. Where does a bird keep its family?
Katelyn:
In a nest.
Sage:
Mhm.
Tom:
I have identified the word 'cloaca', and beyond that, I've really not got much to add.
Sage:
Right, but any day you get to say 'cloaca' is a good day.
Tom:
(laughs)
Sage:
So, you've already won.
Evan:
Tom, don't worry. We're just speaking out of our butts, so...
Tom:
Eyyy.
Katelyn:
Okay. Is the nest being formed by... something stinky?
Evan:
Poop?
Tom:
Or... it could catch something. Like, if the nest is shaped in a particular way, maybe it catches rainwater, or it catches something that... The sap that's dropping from whichever tree finches nest in, and disguising the birds' scent?
Katelyn:
Mm.
Sage:
Go back to the question.
The finches in Mexico City protect their families if they have more aromatic butts.
Tom:
Hold on. Mexico City is one of the biggest urban sprawls on the planet. I'm sure there's a lot of green space in there, but if you're flying into Mexico City, it just— You think somewhere like Los Angeles or Tokyo goes on for a long time. Mexico City goes on for such a long time.
So this feels like an urban adaptation, but...
Sage:
And it is not exclusive to Mexico City.
Tom:
But it's exclusive to urban areas. These are urban finches?
Sage:
Yes.
Tom:
I think I saw the Urban Finches at Glastonbury a few years back.
Sage:
(guffaws)
Evan:
Maybe the biggest predator that they're worried about... are humans!
Tom:
Oh.
Sage:
Mmmh... I... I... You're starting to go on the right track, but no.
SFX:
(Tom and Evan chuckle)
Katelyn:
(sighs)
Sage:
You have identified a component that you have not previously considered.
Evan:
Okay.
Katelyn:
The human component.
Evan:
So, humans may or may not be involved to some degree.
Katelyn:
Maybe they're using something from humans to build the nest.
Sage:
Ahhh, start thinking more!
Tom:
(laughs)
Evan:
Okay, okay, okay.
Katelyn:
That's something they would find in an urban area from humans.
Tom:
Ohhh!
Evan:
But what about—
Tom:
Oh, no. What... When you said butts...
Sage:
(guffaws)
Tom:
Is that a very specific choice of word?
Sage:
Ehh, might be.
Tom:
Because we're not talking about cloacas here, and we're not talking about derrieres.
Sage:
We may not be.
Tom:
Are we talking about cigarette butts?
Sage:
Ah-yuh.
Katelyn:
(gasps)
Tom:
I don't know where to go from there. I just, something cl— I don't know— How they protect the families, couldn't tell you.
Sage:
There we go. So now, keep working. Keep working with that.
Evan:
The finches with the most aromatic butts.
Sage:
Yes.
Evan:
So with that new context, the finches who find the most smelly cigarette butts use that smell...
Sage:
Uh-huh.
Evan:
to defend their family from some threat.
Sage:
Yes. Evan is right.
The threat is parasites. They're repelled by the smell of those stinky butts. Not the derriere, not the posterior, not the cloaca itself. It is the smell of the cigarette butts that repels parasites, and that's how the finches keep their families safe.
Evan:
And what does that tell you about inhaling it?
Sage:
(mutters) I know.
SFX:
(Tom and Katelyn laugh)
Sage:
Researchers have found that several urban bird species deliberately weave discarded cigarette butts into their nests. The nicotine and other chemicals in the filters act as insecticides, reducing mites and other parasites that can harm chicks.
They've conducted this study in Mexico City.
Tom:
Wow.
Evan:
Wow.
Katelyn:
Interesting.
Tom:
Thank you to Lance for this question.
Ice hockey player Pat LaFontaine is one of the greatest NHL centers of all time. A 2011 YouTube video of Dr. James Kelly giving Pat a thorough, methodical neurological exam has had over 46 million views. Why?
And one more time.
Ice hockey player Pat LaFontaine is one of the greatest NHL centers of all time. A 2011 YouTube video of Dr. James Kelly giving Pat a thorough, methodical neurological exam has had over 46 million views. Why?
Sage:
Did he do the exam while he was playing hockey?
Tom:
Oh, wow!
Sage:
(laughs)
Tom:
I mean, no, but I would love to see that.
Sage:
I mean, wouldn't that warrant millions and millions of views?
Katelyn:
So this was 2011 YouTube, which is very different...
Tom:
Mm.
Katelyn:
than YouTube now. It was very much more like a random video would pop off that wasn't necessarily designed to go viral. It just happened to go viral, and people would share it for some reason. I don't know if that will help us.
Evan:
Was the hockey player just, like, really hot?
Tom:
(laughs)
Evan:
'Cause that could do it.
Tom:
You're right that the reason was unexpected.
Katelyn:
What is involved in a— that type of exam?
Evan:
Neurological.
Katelyn:
Is it just, like, asking someone questions?
Evan:
No, I think that's like
Katelyn:
Or is it—
Evan:
testing your nerves, right?
Tom:
Mhm, yeah. Specifically the cranial nerves in this examination.
Katelyn:
The cranial nerves. So... He was hooked up to something testing his nerves. I wonder if like unexpected funny things happen. I think of other viral videos like "David After Dentist"
Evan:
Yeah.
Katelyn:
where it's like, the little kid, and he's like, on... whatever drugs he was on from the dentist. Like, I feel like that kind of thing—
Evan:
Just being a silly little thing, yeah.
Katelyn:
I feel like that kind of thing would go viral. So I wonder if something funny and unexpected was happening during this exam.
Sage:
I kinda refuse to give up on playing hockey.
Here's what I'm imagining. I'm imagining this hockey player is laying in an MRI, and his head is in the tube, and that they're playing a video. He's a goalie or something, and they're playing a video, and he's still got his hockey stick. And so he's reacting while laying on the table. And that's the fun part, is that it's like they're measuring how quick he can react.
Tom:
There's nothing unusual or funny in the video, and if there was, it probably wouldn't have got so far.
Katelyn:
Okay, the other thing that can make videos go viral: a scandal.
Tom:
(snickers)
Evan:
Ohhh.
Katelyn:
Maybe there were cheating allegations, and he was like, "No, test my... reflexes." And a lot of people were watching it to see if his reflexes were as good as they were or something. I don't know.
Sage:
Yeah. Maybe he said, "Ah, no, I got a concussion in that game. That's why I lost that goal. It's not 'cause I suck." And someone did a thorough neurological exam. They're like, "You don't have a concussion. You just suck."
SFX:
(group laughing)
Tom:
That... What an incredible sentence to put on a banner and hold it up at a hockey match.
Sage:
Yeah.
SFX:
(Evan and Katelyn laugh)
Sage:
Well, let me— Brief tangent, if I may.
Tom:
Oh, of course.
Sage:
So the college I went to... terrible at football, great at hockey, 'cause it was in upstate New York, where it's, you know, the freakish frozen white north. So, hockey was the big thing.
And so among the hockey chants... I dunno if you've ever been to a college hockey game. Very bizarre. The chants are extremely pointed and personal.
Tom:
Oh, I've been to an English football match. We know.
Sage:
It's insane!
Tom:
We know. Oh yeah.
Sage:
So among them, when the opposing team's goalie misses, first you cheer, like, "Yay, our team, we scored. We're so happy. Home team..." You do that for a little bit, but you spend most of your time turning back to the opposing team's goalie, and then everyone in the stands goes, "It's all your fault! It's all your fault!"
Tom:
(laughs heartily)
SFX:
(Evan and Katelyn laugh)
Sage:
And you'll learn their name.
Tom:
Yeah.
Sage:
And then if they're from – this is so messed up – if they're from like a lower esteem school, you'll be like, "Safety school! Safet—" It's so bad!
Tom:
Oh, British football has something similar. Like, we will absolutely come up with chants specifically at opposition players and whatever scandal has been in the press. But also, if our team is losing, we have self-deprecating chants as well.
Katelyn:
(laughs)
Sage:
We didn't do that.
Tom:
"We lose every week. We lose every week. You're nothing special. We lose every week."
SFX:
(Evan and Katelyn laugh)
Tom:
That's a standard one from—
Sage:
It's the most English thing I've ever heard.
Tom:
Right? No, look.
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Tom:
It will be vicious as well, but we know that sometimes, things don't go our way.
SFX:
(Evan and Katelyn laugh)
Tom:
Absolutely... nothing to do with hockey matches.
Sage:
Okay, okay, okay. Neurological exam. So—
Evan:
Wait, so the— it got so many views... due to reasons... completely unrelated to hockey?
Tom:
Completely unrelated to hockey, to the reason the video was put up in the first place, to anything like that. It is just a cranial nerve examination, Dr. Kelly going through several different tests calmly and methodically.
Sage:
Was this still that era of YouTube where people would upload random videos, but title them like, "Simpsons movie full HD"?
Tom:
No, but it was very early in a genre of YouTube that I think you will all be familiar with, and I think most of the audience will be aware of.
Evan:
ASMR.
Tom:
Keep talking, Evan. What is ASMR?
Evan:
ASMR is like... the quiet rustling of a microphone, the quiet, like, deep talking where you get really close to the microphone.
Katelyn:
I mean, more whisper. I don't know if people are talking lowering their voices.
Evan:
Well, there's a lot of different genres now.
Katelyn:
There's a lot.
Evan:
Like scratching the microphone, or... And basically, some people really get a lot of satisfaction from certain, like, auditory stimulation.
Katelyn:
And people find it relaxing often as well.
Evan:
People find it relaxing.
Katelyn:
They'll fall asleep to it.
Evan:
So it could've been relaxing due to the narrator's voice. It could've been relaxing due to, like... the machine making the noises that the machine was making. There's a few different reasons why it could have happened.
Tom:
Evan, you have solved it. Absolutely right. This is an early example of an ASMR video, and it is entirely accidental.
Katelyn:
Ha-hah!
Sage:
Whoa.
Katelyn:
I love it.
Tom:
This is Dr. James Kelly just giving a hockey player a thorough, methodical neurological exam, going through different tests with different bits of medical equipment, very well mic'd up.
And ASMR enthusiasts, who say they get a tingle and— from that sort of thing, found that video, and it has had 46 million views from people getting a tingle from this hockey player's exam.
Evan:
(laughs)
Katelyn:
That's awesome.
Sage:
I get the tingle, but it's bad. I hate it.
SFX:
(Tom and Evan laugh)
Sage:
I absolutely get it, but it's like, "Ugh, get it off! Stop it!"
Tom:
Evan, we will take your question please.
Evan:
This question has been sent in by Ghazzah.
In 2020, the traffic police in Mumbai, India devised a scheme they called 'The Punishing Signal' to solve a particular problem. Why was it called this, and how did it backfire?
In 2020, the traffic police in Mumbai, India devised a scheme they called 'The Punishing Signal' to solve a particular problem. Why was it called this, and how did it backfire?
Sage:
Unfortunately, I know this one.
Tom:
Oh, okay. It's on me and Katelyn. Alright.
Katelyn:
Oh, boy. Okay.
Tom:
(exhales sharply)
Katelyn:
2020, lot going on.
Tom:
Lot going on.
Katelyn:
The Punishing Signal. So I wonder what type of signal this was. Is this a signal that the cops were giving to drivers?
Tom:
Or is it a signal in the sense of traffic signal, like a stoplight? It's an automated stoplight that if you cross the line, just pushes you off your moped.
SFX:
(Evan and Katelyn laugh)
Katelyn:
Yep.
Tom:
Just—
Evan:
Ignore the date.
Tom:
Okay, okay.
Evan:
Ignore the date.
Katelyn:
Okay, okay. So—
Tom:
The date is for era and technology, and not because this is—
Evan:
Yes.
Tom:
Any time you get 2020 in a Lateral question, it's like, is this a COVID question? Alright.
Katelyn:
Exactly.
Evan:
No.
Katelyn:
Okay, okay.
Evan:
It has nothing to do with COVID.
Tom:
Okay, then it's a traffic signal that, if you go past the line on the red light, simply shoots you.
Evan:
(guffaws)
Katelyn:
Maybe it makes a really loud noise, and then you annoy everyone around you, and so it's like a shame thing. So if you stop too far past the red light, or maybe if you drive through a red light, there's some sort of... something bad that happens, and everyone knows it's you.
Evan:
Okay, so you guys are on the right track with, like, it is a traffic signal. It does have to do with red lights, kind of. It does. But think about the location. Mumbai, India. What's happening there?
Katelyn:
So, I know the driving is kind of crazy. Like, people don't stay in their— in lanes.
Tom:
And there's so much traffic.
Katelyn:
Yeah, there's so much traffic. It's very chaotic.
Tom:
Mhm.
Evan:
And this uses technology.
Tom:
Mm.
Evan:
There's technology involved.
Katelyn:
It uses technology, and it has to do with red lights... somehow.
Tom:
Okay.
Katelyn:
And it's called a punishing signal.
Tom:
So, let's assume it's not gonna push them off their moped or shoot their car. Katelyn, you said shame. Maybe it takes a picture of them and puts it up on a big billboard somewhere saying, "Look..." Well, I say this 'cause I was driving around... I'd been on a long road trip for filming, and there was this village I drove through which had like a leaderboard of the people who had been speeding through the village.
Sage:
Oh my god.
Evan:
People are probably like, "That's a spot of honor."
Tom:
Right?!
Evan:
People are gonna try to beat that.
Sage:
There's no way that would've worked.
Tom:
It was like: licence plate, three times, 45 miles an hour. and I'm like... (shrugs) I mean, I could try and go for number one on this. I'm not gonna.
Sage:
Yeah!
Tom:
But I could! So I dunno. Maybe it takes a picture of them and tries to shame them that way?
Katelyn:
Yeah. Or maybe it's just... I mean, red lights already do often take photos of you, but... So that is, like, a technology that exists, but we're also not getting anything from Evan, so I don't know if we're on the right track.
Evan:
Keep on exploring the different types of punishments that could be presented to... motorists at a red light.
Tom:
Physical. Embarrassment. Financial.
Katelyn:
Yeah.
Tom:
That's your standard red light camera, though.
Katelyn:
Yeah. I feel like if it was just— if it was only financial, yeah, that's the red light camera. I wonder if, like, you know how if you try to steal something from a store, and it has the little ink tag, it explodes on you.
Is there something where people are marked in a physical way for breaking a rule at a red light?
Tom:
Paintball gun that shoots the car.
SFX:
(Evan and Katelyn laugh)
Sage:
Yeah, yeah. A traffic light that explodes. It says, "Bang!"
Evan:
Tom really wants to shoot—
Tom:
I just— Yeah. Yeah.
Katelyn:
Like I'm thinking, it's in India. What if you get blasted with the color powder or something? You know what I mean?
Sage:
(laughs uproariously)
Evan:
Now, I'll say this—
Sage:
Diwali because you went too fast in a school zone.
Katelyn:
Exactly.
Tom:
Might affect your visibility a little on your windscreen there, I feel.
Evan:
Yeah.
Katelyn:
That's true. Okay.
Evan:
Now, the punishment is immediate.
Tom:
Huh.
Evan:
And people got really upset, and it ended up backfiring. It made the problem worse.
Katelyn:
Are... Hmm. Okay.
Evan:
Keep on thinking about other punishments that you could have at a red light.
Katelyn:
Other punishments you could have at a red light that wouldn't cause danger. 'Cause we keep thinking of dangerous things.
Tom:
Yeah. 'Cause someone coming along and letting your tyres down is not gonna be helpful for anyone in these circumstances.
Katelyn:
Yeah, yeah.
Evan:
Also, think about the situation in Mumbai, India. Just picture the scene in your head. What's going on? What are you experiencing?
Tom:
A lot of horns honking.
Evan:
So keep on thinking about the noise. Keep on thinking about how noisy it is and what the solution might be for that at a red light.
Tom:
It's just... a very loud voice saying, "You've gone past the red light."
Evan:
(guffaws) See, that'll just add to the noise problem. That might be the main problem they're trying to solve, I'll give you that. The problem is it's very noisy.
Tom:
Oh.
Katelyn:
So they're trying to do something, some sort of signal that is not noise, because it's already very noisy?
Tom:
Wait, I've been assuming that this is a punishment for going over a red line like it's a red light camera. I think—
Evan:
That's an incorrect assumption.
Tom:
I think that's wrong, yeah. It's a penalty for using your horn at the red light, or doing something else. It's... Is it a punishment for making noise, for honking your horn when you don't need to?
Evan:
(nods)
Tom:
Okay.
Katelyn:
(gasps)
Tom:
I'm still not sure what that would be, but...
Katelyn:
I mean, what my brain wants to say, I... ugh, is not true, but I'll just say it anyway.
Sage:
Say it, say it!
Katelyn:
But I'm like...
Evan:
Like what Tom says.
Katelyn:
It, like— No. I was not gonna say just shoot 'em.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Katelyn:
I was gonna say, they have some sort of... there's like a audio jammer signal that they blast out, and it stops people from honking, and they get really annoyed that their horns don't work.
Tom:
There's an even louder horn coming right— There's just a train horn waiting for you!
Katelyn:
They have— You know how you can have really directed microphones?
Tom:
Yes.
Katelyn:
They have really directed microphones that they point at the people honking.
Sage:
Yeah, how you like it?
Katelyn:
And it blares them, just the people honking.
Evan:
(snickers) So, the Punishing Signal – remember, the Punishing Signal – was trying to solve a particular problem. I told you guys that the problem was the loud noises.
Katelyn:
(gasps) Wait. The Punishing Signal is it won't turn the light green until they stop honking.
Tom:
(gasps) Ohhh!
Evan:
Ding-ding-ding-ding!
Tom:
Yes!
Sage:
(snaps fingers) Yep.
Katelyn:
Oh my god.
Evan:
Yes. The red light timer reset if there's too much honking, and guess what happened?
Tom:
Oh, people just honk more.
Katelyn:
(cackles)
Evan:
People honk even more!
Sage:
Yep.
Evan:
When the timer reset.
SFX:
(Evan and Katelyn giggle)
Evan:
Mumbai police introduced a traffic signal system called 'The Punishing Signal' to tackle the city's widespread problem of unnecessary honking. Mumbai is often called the honking capital of the world.
They installed noise meters at busy traffic lights, and when the noise exceeded 85 decibels, the system reset the red light timer, forcing all vehicles to wait longer. The campaign used the slogan, "Honk more, wait more".
However, drivers became upset when the timer reset, so the honking became even worse.
SFX:
(Katelyn and Sage chuckle)
Tom:
Thank you to Jagannath for this next question.
Steve leases a silver Mercedes SL55 AMG car in California. Nearly six months later, he returns the car, only to lease a silver Mercedes SL55 AMG once more. He did this again and again. Why?
And one more time.
Steve leases a silver Mercedes SL55 AMG car in California. Nearly six months later, he returns the car, only to lease a silver Mercedes SL55 AMG once more. He does this again and again. Why?
Evan:
He's bad with money.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Katelyn:
Is there some sort of tax credit or something you would get from leasing this car? Like some sort of financial benefit?
Evan:
Ooh, you know, I think that if you— you can business expense the lease of a car.
Sage:
Nearly six months later.
Tom:
Nearly six months, yes.
Katelyn:
So there's something that he could do... There's either something that at the end of the 6-month mark, whatever game he's playing, you can't do it at six months.
Evan:
Maybe at like within six months, you can return the car for any reason whatsoever.
Katelyn:
Well, is it kind of like—
Evan:
No questions asked, you know?
Katelyn:
Didn't— I dunno if this still exists, but didn't Costco have a return policy where it was like, you could get a TV, and then return it within a year and get a new TV, and return it within a year and get a new TV, and there was no cost to that, and people would just do that over and over and over?
Evan:
Abuse it.
Tom:
Katelyn, you are right about the six-month clock there. Certainly there's something that happens after six months. But in this case, it's not about getting a new one just for the sake of it.
Katelyn:
Okay.
Evan:
What if he's a heavy smoker? And...
Sage:
Ah.
Evan:
He doesn't— He loves to smoke in his car, but doesn't really like the smoke smell to build up. So he just doesn't care about money, he's really rich, and he just wants a new car regularly. That'd be the simple, boring answer, but that's not a Lateral answer.
Tom:
It's not, but you're right in part of it. He doesn't really care about money, and he is really rich. This is a famous Steve.
Sage:
Oh, is it... Is it like a speeding ticket thing?
Tom:
Not speeding tickets, but again, like that sort of kind legal area, let's say. I think you're close with that.
Evan:
Like the car can get impounded or like you get too many traffic tickets or something like that.
Katelyn:
Within a six-month period.
Evan:
Oh, yeah. What if it's traffic tickets, and the person just wants to speed... and if he gets a new car regularly, it resets the system.
Katelyn:
Is it a new... Yeah.
Evan:
It would be a new license plate.
Katelyn:
'Cause it's a new license plate every time.
Tom:
Ah. Yes. Technically, you're very close with that. It is a new licence plate. But he's a very famous Steve.
Sage:
A famous Steve in California. So I think we're thinking Steve Jobs?
Tom:
You are thinking Steve Jobs. Spot on. This was Steve Jobs of Apple.
Sage:
Okay, so nearly every six months, he'd get a new AMG, which is a very fancy Mercedes.
Tom:
Yep. It's a very fancy car. And licence plate is key here.
Evan:
Oh, it's probably because he doesn't want people following him and recognizing him, because paparazzi will take photos
Tom:
Yep.
Evan:
of the license plate, and then the paparazzi can use that to triangulate, "Oh, he is at that restaurant. He is at that movie theater. I can track him."
Tom:
Yep.
Evan:
And then he doesn't want people tracking him.
Tom:
Yes...
Evan:
So he gets a new license plate to avoid attention.
Tom:
You're very close there. But cars—
Katelyn:
Oh, I thought you had it.
Tom:
You've nearly got it. You've got the reason he's doing this. There's one other thing in California, and there's that six-month clock we were talking about.
Sage:
Is it the San Francisco bridge toll that he doesn't wanna pay?
Tom:
(cackles) It would be a lot harder to give someone a toll violation or a speeding violation with this.
Katelyn:
We're so close, yet so far.
Evan:
The sixth month, hmm.
Tom:
Yep, for the first six months of a new or leased car.
Sage:
Oh, 'cause he's— 'cause you don't— The paper plates. He's never getting permanent plates.
Evan:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think— that's what I was thinking too, yeah, for... when you first get a new car, it has the paper plates, and you don't need your real metal plates.
Tom:
More than that, until 2019, you didn't need a licence plate at all in California on a new car or a leased car for the first six months. So yes, I think that's such an obscure law, and yeah, you're close enough with the paper plates and things they have now. Steve Jobs did not want to be tracked or also just later said, "You know why I don't have a license plate? Because I don't have a license plate."
Given his like of design and smooth lines, it may have just been, "I can get away with not having a license plate, and I'm rich."
Sage:
"I have many dollars. Rules don't apply to me."
Tom:
(laughs) Yeah, kind of.
Evan:
Rich person stuff.
Tom:
The loophole was closed at the start of 2019, so, yes, Steve Jobs leased a new car every six months, so he didn't need a licence plate.
Sage:
What a jerk.
Katelyn:
Wow.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Sage:
That bothers me.
Tom:
Katelyn, it is over to you.
Katelyn:
This question has been sent in by Katie Waning.
Before welcoming a new adoptee into her home, Tori had to throw out about half of her cookware. Why?
I'll say it again.
Before welcoming a new adoptee into her home, Tori had to throw out about half of her cookware. Why?
Sage:
Okay. Knowing how freaky this show is...
Tom:
(laughs)
Sage:
Eh, eh. We're thinking human adoptee, but I think it's an animal.
Tom:
(chuckles)
Evan:
Yeah, I can totally see that.
Tom:
I'm gonna go further. It's not even a living creature. It's some sort of teddy bear adoptee that will react with certain types of cookware.
SFX:
(Evan and Tom laugh)
Katelyn:
So... some of y'all are on the right track.
SFX:
(Evan and Katelyn laugh)
Katelyn:
I won't name names. Tom may have taken it too far.
Tom:
Yeah.
Evan:
So but one thing that's interesting is, cookware is mostly... When I think of cookware, I think of metal, ceramic, like, you know, pretty hardy stuff that wouldn't carry allergens. So what is it about the cookware that could have a certain thing that would be off-putting to an adoptee?
Tom:
You have the different types for, like, induction stoves versus other stoves, but I can't see an animal reacting to an induction stove?
Sage:
We generally don't say we adopt appliances, though I wish we did. When I buy secondhand furniture, I'm gonna say "Mm, he's a rescue. This table, it's a rescue."
Tom:
Yeah, absolutely.
SFX:
(Katelyn and Evan laugh)
Evan:
Applian— I'm still stuck on the— What was the specific word, that they throw out?
Katelyn:
Tori had to throw out about half of her cookware.
Evan:
Cookware.
Sage:
Okay, so I'm thinking Teflon.
Tom:
Yeah.
Evan:
Yes.
Sage:
The HexClad, cast iron.
Tom:
Is cookware the definition for just, like, pots and pans, or does that extend to, like, spoons and ladles and serving things as well?
Evan:
I think it could extend to all of the things you said, Tom.
Tom:
Yeah.
Katelyn:
The other half of her cookware was totally fine. For this adoptee.
Evan:
So, all of the cookware was in the home, so it's not really an environmental factor. It's probably like, a property of the cookware itself, like a certain type of metal, a certain type of something. Oh, wait, half. Wait, wait, wait. Is this religious?
Katelyn:
No.
Evan:
Ah!
Tom:
What were you thinking?
Evan:
Isn't it, in certain religions, you have, like, the two kitchens, and one kitchen is meat and one kitchen is not meat?
Tom:
Oh.
Sage:
Oh, like the kitten kept kosher?
SFX:
(group laughing)
Evan:
No, no, wait!
Tom:
That sounds like the title of an Agatha Christie book.
Sage:
Yeah.
SFX:
(Evan and Katelyn laugh)
Tom:
Agh, okay.
Katelyn:
I do think that's an interesting theory, but there is not—
Evan:
Yeah, 'cause I was like, they're divided in half for some reason. I was thinking along the kosher lines, 'cause of reasons.
Katelyn:
There's not a religious aspect to this.
Evan:
Okay, okay.
Sage:
Okay. So I'm suddenly thinking, are there any animals that you have to cook the food for?
Tom:
Oh, yeah. That's a weird thing, isn't it? There aren't many animals that require, like, actual culinary stuff.
Sage:
Like stovetop food preparation.
Evan:
Spoiled animals.
Tom:
Well, yes.
Evan:
(chuckles)
Tom:
For some reason, my brain went to... birds and parrots and budg— and smarter animals that might open a drawer to find something, or get attracted to a thing and then damage themselves. It's like, I adopt a dog, and so now I need to keep my chocolate not in the open thing on ground level.
Sage:
That's what I'm thinking too, something like, if they get into it, it would be perilous. Like that, like chocolate, like that degree.
Tom:
Mm.
Sage:
Like if a bird scratched Teflon, like if it got in their talons, they would instantly just fall over.
Katelyn:
So, I will give you a little bit of direction. If the adoptee was just near it, it's not something that is necessarily going to harm them. The cookware has to be actively used. When it's used, it could harm them.
Sage:
Okay, so some, like off-gassing.
Tom:
I feel like if you're cooking in a... I mean, maybe if it's a cheap Teflon pan, stuff starts flaking off into your food. But it doesn't create Teflon gas, does it? Maybe? I'm— Everyone's staring at me. I feel like—
Evan:
(laughs) Well, the thing is, I don't fully know. I know that Teflon... is bad...
Tom:
(laughs)
Evan:
Obviously. If it— If you ingest it.
Tom:
Don't eat Teflon.
Sage:
Yeah. (laughs)
Evan:
I think there was— I think I was reading a story though. This might be complete misinformation, but I think that... Teflon will go through your system, but there is another reason why it's bad if Teflon starts degrading.
Katelyn:
So I will say—
Evan:
It was a Veritasium video, and I just forgot it.
Sage:
And if once the coating is interrupted, like the top layer, so long as— once you start scratching it, then like, the under coating is what you're not supposed to eat.
Tom:
Okay.
Sage:
That's why you can't—
Katelyn:
You guys are on the right track with Teflon. But you have to keep in mind that... Tori didn't get rid of her pots and pans when it was just her using them. This only happened with the new adoptee.
Sage:
Is it a bird?
Katelyn:
The correct adoptee is a bird.
Evan:
A bird?
Tom:
Okay! I don't know why I suddenly thought bird, but my brain went, bird.
Katelyn:
Yeah, I was hesitant to jump in because you went "Bird", and I was gonna confirm, but then you went "Bird" for not the right reason.
Evan:
(chuckles)
Tom:
Okay.
Sage:
Is it because... Is it slightly magnetic? Like the birds will be drawn to induction Teflon? They'll be like, "Oh my god, I gotta get over there." Will it disorient the bird?
Katelyn:
Not necessarily. Not ne— Well, no.
SFX:
(Katelyn and Evan chuckle)
Katelyn:
Not due to magnetic anything.
Tom:
Are some birds allergic to Teflon off-gassing?
Katelyn:
So... yes.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Sage:
I feel like I got there earlier! I said off-gassing!
Tom:
(laughs)
Katelyn:
Yeah, yes. But not combined with birds. So birds specifically, you may be familiar with canaries in the coal mine.
SFX:
(Tom and Evan gasp)
Katelyn:
Birds were often used as early warning systems for poisonous gas. They happen to have very efficient respiratory systems that are designed to maximize oxygen intake for flight, which is why they are also extremely vulnerable to airborne toxins. So...
Evan:
(whispers) Wow.
Katelyn:
Modern non-stick cookware made with Teflon can release toxic fumes if overheated. This is usually harmless to humans, but it can be fatal to birds within literally minutes, even if they're not in the kitchen. So for this reason, responsible bird owners avoid Teflon pans, self-cleaning ovens, and certain heat-resistant plastics.
Evan:
Wow.
Tom:
I feel like I should have known that. That feels like the sort of fact that should've gone through my head at some point.
Katelyn:
I think part of you did.
Evan:
Well, I knew that... you can't heat Teflon up too much, so you need to keep it low. You need to make sure water's in there. There's a lot of precautions you should take when using non-stick pans.
Sage:
Feels like a lot of work just for a pan.
Tom:
Feels like a lot of work just for a bird.
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Tom:
Which just leaves us with the audience question from the start of the show.
Thank you to Steve D for sending this in.
Which game contains 54 identical looking pieces that must be manufactured deliberately badly?
Before I give the audience the answer, does anyone want to get there first?
Sage:
It's Jenga.
Tom:
Yes, it is. Why is it Jenga?
Sage:
If you— They had to find a manufacturer who would deliberately mill them poorly, 'cause if they're milled perfectly, then there's not enough give in order for the pieces to some of them wiggle out and some of them be, like, nice and stiff. So there needs to be enough variability for them to be somewhat irregular, so that the pieces are, you know, a little bit wobbly.
Tom:
You are absolutely right. Sage, perfect solve.
SFX:
(Evan and Katelyn applaud)
Tom:
Wonderful way to end the show.
What's going on in your life? Where can people find you?
Sage:
I'm Sage the Bad Naturalist. I am on YouTube. I am about to be on Crash Course. By the time this is out, I will be on Crash Course Geology, and I should have, by the time this is out, a video in which I have finally successfully identified one sea sponge.
Tom:
(chuckles)
Sage:
It's so hard!
Tom:
And thank you to Evan and Katelyn for also running the gauntlet today. Where can people find you? What's going on with you?
Katelyn:
We are on YouTube, Evan and Katelyn. We have a bunch of different channels. We're also on Twitch. We stream. So, you guys can find us all over the place.
Tom:
And Evan... I guess you should also say something.
Evan:
I'll say, you know what? One thing that I've been working on is I've been trying to invent an ergonomic laptop, which to me is very difficult, 'cause laptops, you just bend over and hunch. So I have a new prototype coming out soon that raises the screen up, separates it from the keyboard, and lets you work at a more comfortable position. So hopefully that went well.
Tom:
And if you want to know more about this show, you can do that at lateralcast.com, where you can also send in your own ideas for questions and join the Lateral Producer's Club. We are at @lateralcast basically everywhere, and there are free full video episodes every week on Spotify.
Thank you to Evan.
Evan:
Hey, thanks for having me.
Tom:
To Katelyn.
Katelyn:
Thank you.
Tom:
To Sage.
Sage:
I'm a big dweeb.
Tom:
I've been Tom Scott, and that's been Lateral.
Episode Credits
| HOST | Tom Scott |
| QUESTION PRODUCER | David Bodycombe |
| EDITED BY | Julie Hassett at The Podcast Studios, Dublin |
| MUSIC | Karl-Ola Kjellholm ('Private Detective'/'Agrumes', courtesy of epidemicsound.com) |
| ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS | Steve Dee, Adam, Katie Waning, Ghazzah, Jacob Star, Lance, Jagannath |
| FORMAT | Pad 26 Limited/Labyrinth Games Ltd |
| EXECUTIVE PRODUCERS | David Bodycombe and Tom Scott |