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Episode 208: The final family
2nd October, 2026 • Sabrina Cruz, Melissa Fernandes and Taha Khan face questions about party performances, shoddy sedans and a first fact-finder.
Transcription by Caption+
Tom:
Just before Hannah had a job interview, she reenacted part of her birthday. Why?
The answer to that at the end of the show. My name's Tom Scott, and this is Lateral.
There's been a bit of frustration at Lateral HQ recently, because despite the fact we have subtitles and full transcripts for every episode, some podcast players insist on automatically captioning things, and that means somewhere in the world, a computer, and maybe some of our listeners, think we're about to discuss 'literal syncing'.
So, if you're following along with the subtitles and suddenly see the phrase "The penguins demand justice", please know that we did not say that. Although, on second thought, it is statistically quite likely.
Anyway, let's meet today's three 'ghosts'. We start: from Answer in Progress (laughs) and reeling apparently from that introduction... Sabrina Cruz. Welcome back to the show.
Sabrina:
Eh, hello. Thank you for having me.
SFX:
(group giggling)
Tom:
Oh, wow. There wasn't even a bit there. I was expecting a bit!
Sabrina:
You really threw me off my game. I just had to resort to politeness.
Tom:
Also joining us, also from Answer in Progress, Melissa Fernandes. Welcome back to the show.
Melissa:
Hello! I'm... ready... for today.
Tom:
Have I just somehow knocked the bit out of Answer in Progress today?
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Tom:
There's normally something going on here! I'm normally bracing to get either insulted or confused, but apparently, apparently the shoe's on the other foot.
Taha Khan, the... I never wanna say last or third. Last but not least from Answer in Progress, although that does imply one of the other two is least, Taha Khan!
Taha:
Hello, and I'm here as the lawyer for the penguins who will be litigating against the human race.
Tom:
There we go!
Taha:
It's the Bee Movie 2.
Tom:
There's the bit.
Sabrina:
It's the Bee Movie 2.
Tom:
Welcome back to the show, folks. How has work been going on the channel lately?
Taha:
Oh, it's been rocky, Tom.
Sabrina:
Eh, we're here.
Melissa:
Oh, yeah, we're s—
SFX:
(Tom and Sabrina laugh)
Melissa:
We're uploading left and right.
Tom:
Oh, no! Talk yourselves up, please!
Taha:
It's been rocky because we are making the best content ever, and we have to suffer for our art.
Melissa:
Yeah.
Tom:
(laughs)
Taha:
Right now, we're in the suffering part.
Tom:
Welcome to the suffering zone! For the next roughly 40 minutes, let's confuse both humans and machines equally, beginning with "Christian Wong".
Taha:
Oh, I get the bit now.
Sabrina:
I still don't do. I still can't. What the hell's that penguin doing?
Tom:
Thank you to David Turner for this question.
How is the Internet controlled by humming?
I'll say that again.
How is the Internet controlled by humming?
Melissa:
You know, I learned from this one YouTube video from Cleo, Cleo Abram...
Tom:
Mhm.
Melissa:
that the Internet is a cord. Or a wire in the ocean, okay?
Tom:
Mhm.
Melissa:
We're all connected by this cord in the ocean. So it's underwater.
SFX:
(Sabrina and Taha giggle)
Tom:
Okay.
Melissa:
What?
Sabrina:
Mhm.
Taha:
So funny.
SFX:
(Sabrina and Melissa laugh)
Taha:
Okay. Go for it. Go for it, Melissa.
Sabrina:
Yeah. Keep going.
Melissa:
So, the humming is the waves. Around the wire.
Sabrina:
Has anyone ever described a wave as a hum?
Melissa:
Okay, but the wire, if you were to touch it... You know when you touch a really loud speaker, it hums?
Sabrina:
Mhm.
Melissa:
I have to imagine if it— that little wire is holding so much of—
Sabrina:
It has the whole Internet!
Melissa:
It has the whole Internet. It must be doing a lot.
Taha:
My favourite part about this interaction is how many videos Tom has made about computers, and Melissa just absolutely butchering everything to do with this. It's so funny.
Tom:
I— Here's the thing. I could just take all the wonderful poetry there, that there was, and...
Melissa:
(sobs)
Tom:
Am I gonna be enough of a dick to say... unfortunately, they're fibre optic cables...
Melissa:
(snorts)
Tom:
And so, it's light that's being trans— Is that...? Yeah, apparently I am.
Sabrina:
Why would you take away this beautiful visual of one cable, actually, Tom? She described a single cable that has all of the Internet.
Melissa:
(sobs)
Taha:
Melissa was just like, wow, we're all connected by one cable.
Tom:
I will move you away from the technical side entirely. This is not a mechanical or electrical hum.
Melissa:
Okay.
Sabrina:
Okay.
Melissa:
Noted.
Sabrina:
See, I wonder what it means by controlled. Because there are probably different ways to navigate the Internet using a bunch of different UI inputs. Like, I feel like people have different ways of interfacing with the Internet. One of them could be humming. That seems whimsical.
Taha:
Okay. These are dumb questions, but I think they're important. What is the Internet in this context? And then, what— once we establish that, I think we can then try to understand what is controlling the Internet.
Melissa:
Mm.
Sabrina:
Mm. Really systems-based thinking here, Taha. Really taking this like a consultant for some reason.
Taha:
Thank you.
SFX:
(both snickering)
Tom:
I can answer that question in part, I think, by telling you that this humming happens in conference rooms.
Melissa:
Who owns the Internet?
Sabrina:
Hah!
Tom:
"What is the Internet?" is actually a really good question. Is it the physical infrastructure? Is it the standards around it?
Sabrina:
Ohhh. There is that— the consortium. There's that whole thing. They're the ones who did the whole thing.
Tom:
Specifically the Internet Engineering Task Force, yes.
Taha:
Okay. Now, this is... just an idea. These engineers, they decided at some point that they had to have some sort of standard for some frequency-based decision, and they decided, they were like, "Alright, this is an arbitrary decision. David, start humming."
And then David in the conference room was like, "Mmmm."
Tom:
I thought you were talking to David the producer for a moment there.
Taha:
I know. It was just the only—
Tom:
(chuckles)
Taha:
It was the only name I had in my head. And David in the conference room was like, "Mmmm" and they recorded that, and they went, "Great, that's the frequency we're gonna use."
Tom:
I'm not sure what I can say other than no, unfortunately.
Sabrina:
Hah! Great.
Melissa:
Wait, what kind of humming is it? Is it like a hum, like a consistent hum? Or is it like a hum to a tune?
Tom:
Yeah, no, it's a human hum. Several humans humming, in fact.
Sabrina:
The Internet is actually one large a cappella venue.
Melissa:
(snickers)
Tom:
That is... It's not that... but that's the kind of noise you might be hearing.
Sabrina:
It's when Pentatonix took over culture for some reason. Pentatonix and Glee... that's— they took over the Internet.
Tom:
Honestly, I don't know where this idea came from. It seems to be just this group that does this. But I mean, if someone was suddenly inspired by the a cappella group, I could believe it.
Taha:
What does any of that mean? What clue have you given us here?
Sabrina:
So wait, okay, what is the Internet? Are we talking about the standards? Are we talking about the infrastructure?
Tom:
We're talking about the standards and the people who decide them.
Sabrina:
The standards. Alright.
Melissa:
Hmm.
Sabrina:
There are limits around what can be shared on the Internet. I remember when they were like, "We can share pictures now. We have the power to do this." Was there, like, is there a frequency range that's allowed to be on the Internet somehow?
Tom:
How would they make that decision?
Sabrina:
Well, it's like, what you're able to write to it, right? It's a digital frequency.
Tom:
I mean, not necessarily just on the frequency, but how might they make any decision?
Sabrina:
Through song. Rap battle.
SFX:
(group giggling)
Taha:
Through... consensus. By discussing things.
Sabrina:
Mm.
Tom:
Keep going, Taha.
Sabrina:
The more you agree... the more you hum.
Melissa:
Oh, mmm! Mmmm!
Tom:
I like— (laughs)
Taha:
Okay, is this like the House of Commons and stuff, where the louder the hum, the more... 'Cause everyone goes, "Aye" or whatever.
So like, in this one, they all hum. And so if someone goes, "It should be— We should run the Internet this way", and everyone goes... It's like a rap battle.
Melissa:
Mmmm!
Taha:
They go, "Mmm".
Tom:
Yes. That is more or less how the IETF makes consensus decisions.
Sabrina:
No way.
Tom:
They don't do a strict vote count, but they try to work out when there's a clear sense of agreement by having... how loud are people humming? Just as a—
Sabrina:
A volume thing.
Taha:
This is how they do rap battles.
Sabrina:
Well, I think that it enables a spectrum, right?
Tom:
It enables one other thing about humming, that is, it's— that putting your hands up or clicking your fingers or anything like that...
Sabrina:
It's anonymous.
Tom:
It's anonymous. You're right, Sabrina.
Sabrina:
Yeah. But here's the thing. What if you're really tone deaf? (giggles) What if you're like, "Yeah, that's clearly Jimbo over there, rrr"?
Tom:
In a big group of people, it is... I'm not gonna say it's impossible to detect, but it is very difficult to have any sort of record that says this person voted this way. Because all you can hear is the hum.
Sabrina:
Mmmm.
Taha:
Wow, so—
Melissa:
Mmmm.
Taha:
But the thing that I—
Melissa:
Mmmm!
Taha:
I feel we're just glazing over the fact that this is exactly how rap battles work.
Tom:
(laughs heartily)
Taha, we will take your question please.
Taha:
Alright, so:
This question has been sent in by Jack Weinstein.
In 2007, authorities began renovating the ancient citadel of Erbil in the Iraqi part of Kurdistan. They relocated 828 families who lived there – except for one: Rebwar Mohammed Qader and his family. Why were they asked to stay?
In 2007, authorities began renovating the ancient citadel of Erbil in the Iraqi part of Kurdistan. They relocated 828 families who lived there – except for one: Rebwar Mohammed Qader and his family. Why were they asked to stay?
Tom:
Asked to stay is an interesting one, 'cause my first thought was it was some... some long dead ancestor who was entombed there or something, but asked to stay.
Sabrina:
My first thought was he's working on the renovations.
SFX:
(guessers chuckle in turn)
Melissa:
Yeah.
Sabrina:
Why move him out? He's already there.
Tom:
Mhm.
Melissa:
Yeah, they own the land, and they need a tenth of the land?
Sabrina:
What's a citadel?
Tom:
Big old castle, I think. Just a castle with a load of stuff around it, I think is the rough definition.
Sabrina:
Really?
Tom:
I mean, several historians are gonna be angry at me for that, but I think citadel feels like big, big collection of buildings, you know?
Sabrina:
Okay. So... it's not just one building. This is good to know.
Tom:
Mhm.
Sabrina:
828 families relocated. One family asked to stay.
Taha:
(nods silently)
Sabrina:
Asked to stay? Taha made a face.
Taha:
They were asked to stay.
Sabrina:
Were they bankrolling it?
Taha:
They were not bankrolling it, I don't believe.
Sabrina:
Mm.
Tom:
Okay, standard Lateral thing here. Are all these families human? Did they have to evict 828 families of birds from the citadel? And our remaining family are qualified bird keepers for whatever species this is, and they're like, "Would you stay in the citadel now we have moved these birds for the renovation works?"
Taha:
No.
Tom:
Oh.
Taha:
I think all the families were human.
Tom:
Aw.
Sabrina:
Okay. Okay.
Melissa:
Okay.
Sabrina:
And the one family asked to stay was also human?
Taha:
Also human, yes.
Sabrina:
Okay.
Taha:
Important that they are human, actually.
Sabrina:
Important that they are human?
Melissa:
Is— Are they the only family that's there?
Taha:
Yes. They were the only family that are left. and it was important that they— there was a family that was left.
Tom:
I wonder if this... I'm back on birds.
Sabrina:
(cracks up) How?
Tom:
But... there is a legend that if all the ravens desert the Tower of London, then either the tower will fall or London will fall or something like that. And so there are the— They keep the ravens. They actually clip the wings of the ravens to make sure they won't leave, but...
Sabrina:
Aw.
Taha:
Okay.
Tom:
There is a raven keeper. I wonder if there is some similar folklore that if this citadel is ever completely abandoned, it shall fall.
Sabrina:
Ohhh.
Tom:
And so one family was asked to stay behind.
Taha:
You are very close. I would say it is less folklore and more symbolic.
Tom:
Ooh.
Sabrina:
Is it like a borders type thing, where it's like, oh, are they, like, giving up the city by leaving it, giving up the citadel? Especially if it is, like, this cluster of buildings presumably with a wall around it.
Tom:
If a citadel is abandoned, that is something that the enemy can move into.
Taha:
These are all— Like, you are circling it, for sure. Because if—
Tom:
Well, that's what the enemy would do before going into the citadel.
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Taha:
If this final family was to leave the citadel...
Sabrina:
Technically, ownership is handed over to the renovation company.
Taha:
You're definitely circling it. If this final family was to leave the citadel, then something would no longer be true, which would be extremely symbolic.
Melissa:
Would they be the last remaining...
Taha:
Keep pulling on that thread.
Melissa:
The last remaining ethnic group of the place, and so it wouldn't be—
Tom:
That feels incredibly contentious for a Lateral question.
Taha:
Yeah. (laughs) They're currently the last remaining humans in this place, and why would that be important?
Sabrina:
Is— I'm thinking about Australia and the emus.
Melissa:
Do you need people to have a country?
Taha:
So, this citadel sits in Mesopotamia, which is otherwise known as—
Sabrina:
Oh, humans have never left, like, the cradle of humanity, right? Like, that's where humans have always—
Taha:
The cradle of civilisation.
Sabrina:
So if they left, there were— that would be the first time that there were people not in the cradle of civilization?
Taha:
Yes. So... if that final family had left the citadel, then Erbil would not be able to say that they were the longest inhabited city. And so they were asked to stay, in order to maintain their status as the longest inhabited city.
Sabrina:
How good must it feel to be like, "I got this, guys." "They asked me to stay."
Melissa:
Wow.
Sabrina:
That's fun.
Melissa:
That's so cool.
Taha:
Well, it's funny that you say that, Sabrina, because they also were honoured by it, but after a while... they had other thoughts.
Tom:
There's no one in there.
Taha:
So the Citadel of Erbil is a massive fortified mound rising above modern Erbil with archaeological layers dating back 8,000 years.
In 2007, the Kurdistan regional government launched a restoration project and relocated almost all residents so the conservation work could proceed. However, if everyone left, Erbil would lose its claim to be the world's oldest continuously inhabited city. To preserve continuity, Qader's family was asked to remain as the citadel's sole residents.
While proud to play this role, they later described how lonely and impractical life became inside an empty citadel
Sabrina:
Whoa.
Taha:
surrounded by scaffolding and construction crews.
Sabrina:
So cool, though.
Melissa:
Whoa.
Sabrina:
That's so cool.
Tom:
Thank you to Dani L for this next question.
In 1921, a long-running argument between the Soups and the Sparks was finally settled with the help of two dead frogs. How?
And one more time.
In 1921, a long-running argument between the Soups and the Sparks was finally settled with the help of two dead frogs. How?
Melissa:
Who are the Soups? Who—
Sabrina:
Long argument. What arguments can be resolved with two dead frogs?
Taha:
Boiling frog theory.
Melissa:
Huh...?
Taha:
Do boiling frogs jump out of the water if you boil them slowly? And then they've— they settled the argument by boiling two frogs. One hot, they boil it fast, and the other one they boil it slow.
Melissa:
What?
Taha:
Do you guys know what I'm talking about?
Sabrina:
I do know what you're talking about. But Melissa seems mortified.
Taha:
Okay. So if you boil— The saying goes—
Sabrina:
This is a thought experiment.
Tom:
(laughs)
Taha:
Of— if you bo— Maybe for you.
SFX:
(others blurt laugh)
Taha:
For the Soups and the Sparks, this was very real. If you boil a f— They say that if you boil a frog really slowly, the frog will not notice the temperature change, because you'll do— the temperature changes so slowly. So it won't jump out of the pot, and it will be boiled alive.
Melissa:
I see, I see, I see.
Taha:
I don't actually know if this is true or not.
Tom:
You are not a million miles away with that, Taha. Like, you're not close. You— But—
Taha:
Oh.
Tom:
You're not even in the same neighbourhood, but you are certainly not a million miles away. There were some keywords in there.
Taha:
Like 'frog'. (laughs)
Tom:
Like 'experiment'.
Taha:
Okay.
Sabrina:
Ooh. Okay. 1920s. What didn't we know? Oh, is this the thing about like anim— animalism or animism or whatever the heck? Like everybody has electricity inside of them? Some old school science stuff. We knew about the body by the 1920s though.
Taha:
I think it's, can you electrocute some dead... Ah, is this the one where you can electrocute... they electrocute frogs to try and make their nerves move or something, and so they use some dead frogs to try and settle an argument on whether or not muscles are activated by electricity?
Tom:
You are halfway there.
Sabrina:
That's the Spark. What's the Soup?
Tom:
That's the Sparks. What's the Soup?
Taha:
Is the Soup blood?
Tom:
No.
Sabrina:
Mm.
Taha:
Is it bile?
Melissa:
Is it a bodily fluid?
Taha:
They loved bile back in the day.
Sabrina:
Yeah, they were obsessed with the humors, but we knew the humors were out of whack by the '20s.
Tom:
Yeah, by 1921, yeah.
Sabrina:
Yeah.
Taha:
I don't know, I wasn't around.
Sabrina:
Tom's speaking with a lot of authority.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Taha:
So are you, Sabrina!
Sabrina:
(cackles) Yeah.
Tom:
You're right, Taha, that this is about nerve stimulation.
Taha:
Okay.
Tom:
And you've also worked out what the Sparks believed.
Taha:
The Sparks believed that electricity is the thing that... electrical pulses or charges is the thing that controlled muscles or nerves. The Soups...
Tom:
You're right that the Sparks believed that electricity controlled something. I wouldn't quite go with like muscle control and nerve impulses.
Taha:
Right.
Sabrina:
I— Man, I forgot how recently we didn't know things.
Tom:
Right?
Sabrina:
Or did know things. But I wonder if like bef— I remember that there was— No, America's older than this. Benjamin Franklin was a found— I'm trying to figure out where in American history Benjamin Franklin sat. It was pre-1920s, okay.
Tom:
Definitely pre-1920s.
Melissa:
Mhm.
Taha:
Okay, and why is that relevant? You sort of half-said a thought.
Sabrina:
Sorry. I was just like— 'Cause there was this period of time where people thought... the bodies were animated through electricity. Like if you were alive, if it reacted to electricity.
Tom:
Yes.
Sabrina:
Even though it was— there's like, it's way more complicated than that, but I feel like we—
Tom:
Yes, Sabrina, it is.
Sabrina:
Thank you. Thank you for confirming we're more than just electricity. (giggles)
Tom:
Well, we are, and that's kind of important here.
Melissa:
We're more than electricity.
Taha:
So...
Sabrina:
We're soup.
Melissa:
Is the soup the spirit?
Sabrina:
Is the soup literally soup? Like we have to eat food? (cracks up)
Tom:
(laughs) I would... Melissa, it is not metaphorical. Sabrina, it is not literal soup. Were you to split the difference between those two concepts, I think you've pretty much got it.
Taha:
What, it's like— is it like glucose? Is it like nutrition of some sort? It's like a... They don't believe that it's just sparks. It also requires... something energetic like glucose.
Tom:
When you say something energetic...
Taha:
I mean, like, you know, like you eat food to get energy. Like it's... you need nutrition. You need something to create a chemical reaction.
Tom:
I think I'm gonna give that to you.
This was to detect whether neurons used chemicals or electricity or both.
The Sparks believed that neurons were communicating purely through electrical impulses. The Soups argued that there were chemical signals between nerves as well.
Melissa:
Wow!
Taha:
And who was right? I don't actually know.
Tom:
Well, in 1921, Otto Loewi electrically stimulated the vagus nerve of one frog's heart, slowing its beat down. He then transferred the surrounding fluid to a second heart, which also slowed down.
Sabrina:
Whoa!
Tom:
Which proved that a chemical carried the signal, and that finding got him the Nobel Prize in 1936.
Sabrina:
Well deserved. That's nuts!
Tom:
(laughs)
Taha:
And what did the frogs get? Nothing.
Sabrina:
Yeah.
Taha:
(giggles)
Tom:
Melissa, whenever you're ready, we'll take your question, please.
Melissa:
Alright.
This question has been sent in by Tobias N.
Between 1944 and 1948, Lou Jacobs developed prototypes for a car. It suffered from stalling, backfiring, and terrible sightlines, and it was only suitable for very short distances. However, it soon became iconic and endlessly copied. Why?
I'll give you it one more time.
Between 1944 and 1948, Lou Jacobs developed prototypes for a car. It suffered from stalling, backfiring, and terrible sightlines, and it was only suitable for very short distances. However, it soon became iconic and endlessly copied. Why?
Sabrina:
It's the cartoon car. Did he make Speed Racer? I swear that's a Japanese anime.
Melissa:
Kinda getting warm. You're not that far off.
Sabrina:
No!
Taha:
Getting warm?
Tom:
(laughs)
Sabrina:
What?
Melissa:
I mean, like—
Tom:
Okay. Well, I was thinking a toy. I was thinking a toy. This feels like some sort of... not-real car...
Sabrina:
Yeah.
Tom:
That has... that's now some iconic piece of pop culture.
Taha:
Is it Hot Wheels?
Melissa:
Not Hot Wheels.
Sabrina:
Is it Hot Wheels?
Melissa:
No it's not Hot Wheels.
Sabrina:
No!
Melissa:
But it is a toy. It is something
Sabrina:
that you wouldn't be able to drive on a road, on a regular road.
Taha:
Is it a go-kart?
Sabrina:
I feel like go-karting predates that.
Tom:
I feel like 'terrible sightlines' is not the case for a go-kart. You can definitely see all the way around.
Taha:
What about the first F1 cars?
Tom:
Oh!
Taha:
Like that?
Melissa:
Only suitable for very short distances. But they're still copying it.
Tom:
And they're stalling and backfiring as well.
Melissa:
Yeah.
Sabrina:
Not a good car.
Melissa:
Not a good car.
Sabrina:
Famously a bad car. But it's iconic.
Melissa:
But it's iconic.
Taha:
Short distances. (gasps) Bumper car!
Sabrina:
(gasps loudly)
Melissa:
No, not quite.
Sabrina:
No!
Tom:
No, 'cause they're electrically powered. That's just an electric motor.
Clown car!
It's— Okay. That's— Stick with me here.
Sabrina:
That's just listing different cars.
Tom:
No, no. Clown car.
It's gonna stall, it's gonna backfire. It only needs to go from outside the circus tent to the centre of the ring, and it has terrible sightlines because there are 20 clowns in it!
Melissa:
(whispers) Bingo.
Sabrina:
No!
Taha:
No way!
Sabrina:
They're real?
Melissa:
Yeah, Lou Jacobs developed the prototype for the clown car.
Tom:
(laughs heartily)
Taha:
A clown engineer.
Melissa:
Lou Jacobs is credited with developing and popularizing the tiny-car joke used in circuses worldwide. He would contort his six-foot body into a car barely two feet in size, and it was powered by a washing machine motor.
Jacobs is best known for his work with the Ringling Brothers.
Sabrina:
What?
Melissa:
He also popularized the rubber red nose used by clowns.
Sabrina:
Wow!
Melissa:
His clown car act can be seen in the famous 1952 film, The Greatest Show on Earth.
Sabrina:
My goodness.
Taha:
Wow. And the red nose? That's crazy.
Sabrina:
That's nuts.
Melissa:
Yeah.
Tom:
There was something in the back of my head about circus history and the name Lou Jacobs. Something pinged in there.
Melissa:
So good. That was so good.
Taha:
Incredible. And if anyone wants to see what I put in my notes... for the clown car.
SFX:
(group guffaws)
Tom:
That is— That's a Tetris block with some wheels attached.
Taha:
(giggles)
Tom:
Thank you to Matthew for this question.
The world's first scientist was born in 1780. How?
I'll say that again.
The world's first scientist was born in 1780. How?
Now, when I say how was the scientist born... just to be clear, the answer is not, like, Caesarean section or natural, or an explanation of the birds and the bees. We are looking for how that sentence can be true.
Melissa:
The first scientist?
Tom:
Yes.
Melissa:
We didn't have scientists before 1780?
Sabrina:
Well, they were natural philosophers.
Tom:
I mean, keep thinking that way, yes.
Melissa:
Was it just, like, the first time that... Ooh, wait. Okay, university stuff. Is it the first time there was a university subject specifically separating sciences from, like, arts?
Sabrina:
Hmm.
Tom:
Sabrina is actually very close there, very quickly. It's not they were known as natural philosophers. But you're right – it was a name change.
Sabrina:
Was it a rebrand? Did they rebrand some sort of society of nerds?
SFX:
(group snickering)
Tom:
Again, not society of nerds. But yes, yeah, this is a name thing.
Taha:
This is a name thing. Okay, so... Everything was philosophy. In the beginning, everything was philosophy.
Melissa:
Mhm.
Taha:
Right? So... all knowledge was basically philosophy, because philosophy was just about asking questions, and then as people asked too many questions, they were like, "Alright, alright. We've got to group these questions up." So they started grouping the questions up. I think... There was, well... What do they brand—
Tom:
Mhm. What were scientists before they were scientists? You've got that very quickly. And more than that, why might there have been the need for the rebrand? If you solve that, you'll get the name.
Taha:
Okay. So, they're concerned with the nature of things, right? So like how things exist and how things have come to be. And this was inherently connected to God.
And so I'm guessing that the name was something to do with... theology and things coming to be?
Sabrina:
It could— 1780, that's like American... America's coming to be, right? When's the Hamilton song?
Tom:
(laughs)
Sabrina:
1779? When did Hamilton happen?
Tom:
1776 is the Declaration of Independence.
Sabrina:
There we go.
Melissa:
Okay.
Sabrina:
So, 1780 feels like we're establishing a new—
Tom:
And that's when that scientist was born.
Melissa:
Okay.
Tom:
I'll actually tell you that the word was coined in 1834. We didn't have scientists before 1834.
Taha:
So, why would you need a new name?
Tom:
Why did the old one not apply?
Melissa:
Okay, yeah, yeah, what were they trying to distinguish from the sciences? From science, from the scientists?
Taha:
Why would the old one not apply? Magic? Alchemy?
Tom:
We were well past that.
Taha:
I don't know, I don't know date or time. I'm late to everything. I can't deal with—
Melissa:
I need a quick fact check. When was Einstein born?
Sabrina:
Einstein was born after 1780. He lived through... He had to flee Nazis.
Tom:
They wouldn't have had to coin this word for Einstein.
Sabrina:
What's that mean?
Melissa:
What did the scientist do? Maybe it's like... What was the scientist—
Sabrina:
They invented the white lab coat, and they were like—
Melissa:
There we go.
Sabrina:
"We gotta figure out something for this drip."
Melissa:
'Cause doctors existed, right? Maybe they're trying to distinguish scientists from doctors, like, like medical doctors.
Sabrina:
Ooh. Or was it... I don't know why I'm going back to that thing you were saying, Melissa, about separating out knowledge and like when they were handing out degrees, for example.
Let's say they're establishing a school. They need to come up with a masters of science, a bachelors of science. They need to come up with a word for it.
Tom:
They already had the word 'science'.
Sabrina:
Okay.
Melissa:
Oh.
Tom:
That was definitely there. They're coining specifically the word 'scientist'.
Melissa:
Were scientists not paid before?
Tom:
Philosopher William Whewell coined the word 'scientist' for a very specific reason in 1834.
Taha:
When's Galileo?
Sabrina:
Brother...!
Melissa:
That's really early. That's much earlier.
Sabrina:
So much earlier!
Melissa:
That was a lot earlier. Wasn't that in like the 15th century? 14th century?
Taha:
Okay.
Tom:
Yeah, so what was changing in the 19th century?
Sabrina:
19th century, we had the second industrial— No, 1800—
Taha:
Engineers.
Sabrina:
Ohhh.
Taha:
Is that a thing?
Tom:
Nope. Sorry.
Sabrina:
Darn.
Tom:
There was a term for scientists before 'scientist'.
Taha:
Okay – nerds. And then they were like, "Alright, alright, we can't be doing that all the time."
Sabrina:
That seems a little mean.
Taha:
They were like, "Let's stop bullying them."
Tom:
Nerd was, I think, coined by Dr. Seuss.
Sabrina:
Really?
Taha:
Wow.
Sabrina:
Hater since day one, I guess.
Taha:
(guffaws)
Sabrina:
1834, that's an industrial revolution. Maybe the first one.
Tom:
Yep. There's a lot of changes happening in the world in general, in Britain, where this is. There are particular social changes happening that meant the old word didn't work.
Taha:
This is a class thing.
Tom:
Not quite, but now we're getting closer. Sociological certainly.
Taha:
Okay. Okay.
Tom:
Loads of people really couldn't have been scientists before then.
Melissa:
Huh.
Taha:
(gasps)
Sabrina:
Women.
Taha:
There's a man name.
Tom:
Yes, there is.
Taha:
It's a man name.
Tom:
Yes, there is.
Melissa:
Wait, what?
Taha:
What's the man—
Sabrina:
Man of knowl— What was it? Like, the Enlightenment or whatever, and people were like, "Ah!"
Tom:
Well, what— No, Sabrina—
Melissa:
Man of knowledge?
Taha:
Man of knowledge?
Tom:
I'm gonna give you that.
"Men of science" was the term for scientist.
Taha:
Men of science!
Sabrina:
No way!
Melissa:
What?
Sabrina:
And then they allowed a woman to learn things.
SFX:
(Sabrina and Melissa crack up)
Tom:
Until 1834, when William Whewell, he reviewed the bestselling book, On the Connexion of the Physical Sciences, by Mary Somerville, who was born in 1780, Scottish mathematician, astronomer, and polymath.
And he simply could not use the term "men of science" to review the book, so William Whewell coined the word 'scientist'.
Melissa:
Wow.
Taha:
Okay. Okay, listen. I don't wanna attack you, Tom, but surely, her— Mary was her name?
Tom:
Mary.
Taha:
Surely she... coined the term by existing.
SFX:
(others snickering)
Taha:
You know what I mean?
Tom:
The first use of scientist as gender neutral, I mean, perhaps he got it from somewhere, but the first use that anyone can track down is 1834 in a book review.
Taha:
An ally.
Sabrina:
Wow.
Taha:
The first ally was born.
Sabrina:
Yes!
SFX:
(guests giggling)
Tom:
Sabrina, let's go for your question please.
Sabrina:
This question has been sent in by Karen Zheng.
During Japan's Edo period, an elderly man tied a bag of papers and coins around his dog and sent it off on a journey of 350 miles. Weeks later, the dog returned with a charm and even more money. What did the charm signify, and where did the extra money come from?
I'm gonna ask this again.
During Japan's Edo period, an elderly man tied a bag of papers and coins around his dog and sent it off on a journey of 350 miles. Weeks later, the dog returned with a charm and even more money. What did the charm signify, and where did the extra money come from?
Melissa:
My first question is where did the dog go? 350 miles? That's how far the dog went? Is this a real story? Did this dog actually...
Tom:
And the dog went on its own? I didn't know dogs could navigate that far.
Taha:
I don't know if they said that.
Tom:
Mm.
Sabrina:
Mm.
Taha:
Did Sabrina say that the dog went on its own?
Tom:
The dog was sent off on a journey.
Sabrina:
So, the dog did travel on its own, but there was something about it that, like, if it ran into other people, they would help it— they would help direct the dog when necessary.
Tom:
And this was Japan?
Sabrina:
Yes.
Taha:
It's like that one TV show of those little children trying to do tasks.
Tom:
(laughs softly) Yes.
Melissa:
Wait, what?
Tom:
This a Japanese show that...
There's a tradition I think where kids are sent out on their first errand. Like, they're sent with a little money to the corner shop to buy something, and the first time that you as a child are entrusted to do that is really a big deal.
And there was a Japanese show that set up where the parents just track the kid with hidden cameras on their first errand.
Taha:
And they're so small.
Sabrina:
That's very sweet.
Taha:
They're tiny.
Sabrina:
They're so little.
Melissa:
Aww, that's so sweet. Okay, wait, so we're trying to figure out what the symbol is.
Sabrina:
We're trying to figure out what the charm signified. You don't need to illustrate the charm for me. But what did it signify, and where did that extra money come from?
Tom:
The dog just robbed people on the way.
Sabrina:
Yep, gunpoint. You nailed it.
Taha:
Woo!
Sabrina:
Woo!
Taha:
Dog with a gun.
Tom:
(laughs heartily)
Sabrina:
(guffaws)
Melissa:
I mean—
Taha:
In the Edo period.
Tom:
Yep.
Taha:
(giggles)
Tom:
Time travelling dog with a gun.
Sabrina:
Hah, there we go. 350 miles and 350 years.
Melissa:
I don't know if people back then... babied dogs the same way that we do now. Probably not. But I wonder if the symbol was like, "Feed me, I'm hungry. Give me money for my owner."
And it was like to guilt the people along the way that saw this poor dog alone.
Taha:
But it returns. It returns with the charm.
Sabrina:
It didn't go out with the charm.
Melissa:
Okay, never mind.
Sabrina:
The dog had papers and coins around the dog.
Taha:
And when it came back, it came back with money.
Tom:
And the charm.
Taha:
Why is it papers and coins to begin with, and then it's money afterwards? Are papers and cha— papers and coins not just money?
Tom:
Well, papers could mean a message. It could mean some paperwork that needs to be sent. Like, why is someone sending a dog messenger 3— Why is someone trusting a dog messenger to go 350 miles?
Melissa:
Right?
Sabrina:
Why would you have—
Taha:
I wonder if the charm...
Sabrina:
Mm?
Taha:
is to say, "Hey, he's coming back." Like, he's on his journey back.
If you're trying to send the dog, on the way there, everyone's like, "Alright, it's going there." And on the way back, the guy's like, "Yep."
Sabrina:
You do have it right that there's— It's a two-part journey. On the way there, on the way back.
Melissa:
Right.
Sabrina:
The charm signals that the mission is halfway done.
Melissa:
Okay.
Sabrina:
You did ask the right question. Why would you trust a dog to do this? Why would you have the dog do this?
Tom:
Oh, because a human would get intercepted.
Melissa:
Ooh.
Taha:
Smell.
Melissa:
Ooh.
Sabrina:
No to both of you. I'm so sorry.
Tom:
Oh, I was thinking it was a wartime thing, and this is a messenger that could go behind enemy lines.
Sabrina:
It actually isn't a wartime thing. Remember, this is an elderly man.
Tom:
Oh, yeah.
Sabrina:
Who ties a bag of papers and coins around his dogs— around his dog, and sends it off on this journey. It comes back with a charm and more money. That doesn't really sound like a wartime thing.
Taha:
Is he dying?
Melissa:
I'm trying to figure out who he sent the messenger, this dog to. Was it, like, to a long-lost family member?
Sabrina:
Where would they get the sh— the charm?
Melissa:
I don't know, they made it? (cracks up)
Sabrina:
What do you guys know about Japanese culture?
Tom:
Not much.
Taha:
Nothing.
Melissa:
Like, not much about these charms.
Taha:
Zero things.
Sabrina:
What could the papers be?
Melissa:
Well, if it's to a loved one, potentially, which is why I'm making a big assumption here. A letter? 'Cause they clearly didn't have email.
Sabrina:
I'm gonna put you aside, Melissa. Taha, you were getting somewhere with the, "Is he dying?" Like, there is the—
Taha:
Is it his will?
Sabrina:
The elderly man couldn't do the journey on his own, so the dog went in his place. The dog was carrying papers to a location.
Tom:
So, maybe there is... 350 miles is a long way, but somewhere where his valuables are stored, that this is... the Edo period equivalent of a safe deposit box, and he needs to withdraw his things from it.
Sabrina:
I think that Western culture is really tainting this conversation. Remember how...
SFX:
(group laughs heartily)
Sabrina:
Remember the thing we were talking about, about, like, the kids going off on their first mission, and the entire community rallied around the kid to be like, "Yeah, you can do it. We know that you're on your first thing. We're gonna help you out."
Melissa:
Uh-huh.
Sabrina:
Think about that in this context, this, a sense of community.
Melissa:
Okay, so is the dog a child?
Sabrina:
No, the dog is a dog, Melissa.
Melissa:
I mean, like—
SFX:
(group guffawing)
Taha:
Okay, so, this is a communal culture. It's a culture where everyone... Oh, I mean, not everyone is happy together, but you know what I mean. It's less atomised, I guess.
Melissa:
Mm.
Taha:
So... the community... this paper is something to do with him dying. So maybe he is arranging his funeral of some sort. The papers are to do with that, and all of the money, the additional money is because people are like, "Let me contribute to the..." to the ceremonies around death in that culture.
Melissa:
Ooh.
Sabrina:
You're getting really close. I think it's not so much focused on death necessarily, but it's like, it's a cultural practice, a spiritual one potentially.
Melissa:
Is it j— Is the charm just for good luck, good fortune, or just to give well wishes? To the man? I mean, that's just what a charm does though.
Sabrina:
I think you're on the right track with the charm. Where is the dog getting the charm?
Tom:
I'm gonna be stereotypical and say temple.
Sabrina:
Temples contain shrines. Shrines are places of faith.
Tom:
Yes, shrine, that's the word I was looking for.
Sabrina:
So what would you do at a shrine? And if you couldn't physically go there, what would you send in your place?
Tom:
Prayer?
Sabrina:
Boom!
Tom:
Oh?
Melissa:
There are prayers on the papers?
Sabrina:
So now, let's paint the scene. Old man ties prayers, puts coins on his dog, sends the dog on their way. Everyone's like, "Oh, man, that's a dog going somewhere." Okay, the dog gets to the place with the prayers, with the money. What would you do if you saw a dog with the prayers and the money? What does the charm signify, and where did the extra money come from?
Tom:
Are people just donating to the dog on the way back, because they support the mission of the dog and the old man who has sent it?
Sabrina:
Yes!
Taha:
Aww.
Melissa:
Aww. Wait, that's so sweet.
Taha:
Oh, to be an old man in Edo Japan.
SFX:
(group giggling)
Sabrina:
Okay. So, the heart of the answer is that at the time, visiting Ise Grand Shrine was considered a once in a lifetime spiritual duty. Elderly, sick, or poor sent their dogs instead. These dogs of divine assistance were fitted with small bags containing money and written prayers, and a tag indicating that they were on their way to the shrine.
Villagers, fellow pilgrims, and innkeepers recognized these dogs, and they helped them. They fed them. They guided them along the way. They often added extra coins to the pouch to make sure that the animal could keep going.
And when the dog finally got to Ise, shrine attendants supplied a talisman to signify that it had reached its destination. And sometimes, dogs came back with more money than when it had left because everyone was like, "This is— I gotta support the dog!"
Tom:
(laughs heartily)
Melissa:
That's so sweet, oh!
Taha:
We've fallen so far as a society.
Tom:
Yep, yeah, we have.
Sabrina:
The way that you guys were like, "They're sending the dog to war! They're sending the dog to the bank!" I'm like, guys, what's wrong with you?
Tom:
All that remains then is the question that Hannah sent in that was read out at the start of the show.
Just before Hannah had a job interview, she reenacted part of her birthday. Why?
Sabrina:
She's working at a gastropub where they do Happy Birthday celebrations.
Tom:
(laughs)
Sabrina:
And they were— She sang Happy Birthday to herself to prepare for the role of singing Happy Birthday to customers.
Melissa:
You see, I was gonna guess that they are auditioning, and they are an actor, and there was some scene about a birthday party that they needed to reenact.
Taha:
I think this is a power pose that they did in order to gain confidence.
Tom:
What power pose would you do at your birthday, Taha?
Taha:
Truly have no idea, but maybe blow out candles? Is that a power pose?
Sabrina:
That's a power pose?
Tom:
Taha, that's the right action.
Melissa:
What?
Sabrina:
What?
Tom:
Why might you be doing that action?
Sabrina:
Professional whistler, let's go.
Melissa:
Were they just breathing? Were they literally just breathing?
Tom:
Yes, they were, Melissa! It is just a breathing exercise.
Melissa:
(snickers)
Tom:
This—
Sabrina:
Boo!
Taha:
I hate the way this is written.
Sabrina:
Was it Hannah? Hannah, did you send this?
Tom:
Yeah, this is Hannah, who is just telling you about the technique called "candle breathing" to help combat anxiety. You breathe in, and you pretend you are blowing out a candle, because it forces you to exhale slowly.
Sabrina:
I've never blown out a candle successfully even once.
Melissa:
Wow.
Tom:
Thank you very much to all of our players.
Tell us about Answer in Progress. We will start with Sabrina. What is Answer in Progress?
Sabrina:
Answer in Progress is a YouTube channel where the three of us ask questions and document the adventure of trying to figure things out.
Tom:
Melissa, things like...?
Melissa:
Oh, videos like... why did millennials paint everything gray?
Tom:
And Taha, where can people find you?
Taha:
You can find us at youtube.com/answerinprogress.
Tom:
And if you want to know more about this show, or send in your own ideas for questions, or join the Lateral Producer's Club, you can do that at lateralcast.com. We are at @lateralcast basically everywhere, and there are full video episodes every week on Spotify.
Thank you very much to Taha Khan!
Taha:
Hello!
Tom:
Melissa Fernandes.
Melissa:
Bye?
Tom:
(laughs) Sabrina Cruz?
Sabrina:
Maybe.
Tom:
I've been Tom Scott, and that's been Lateral?
Episode Credits
| HOST | Tom Scott |
| QUESTION PRODUCER | David Bodycombe |
| EDITED BY | Julie Hassett at The Podcast Studios, Dublin |
| MUSIC | Karl-Ola Kjellholm ('Private Detective'/'Agrumes', courtesy of epidemicsound.com) |
| ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS | Hannah, Karen Zheng, Tobias N., Jack Weinstein, David Turner, Dani L., Matthew |
| FORMAT | Pad 26 Limited/Labyrinth Games Ltd |
| EXECUTIVE PRODUCERS | David Bodycombe and Tom Scott |