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Episode 209: Suit trimmings
9th October, 2026 • Michelle Wong, Bill Sunderland and Dani Siller face questions about secure safes, silly screenshots and sensible slippers.
Transcription by Caption+
Tom:
Who would be grateful for a horse's golden slippers?
The answer to that at the end of the show. My name's Tom Scott, and this is Lateral.
Welcome back to Lateral. Today's episode is being recorded across half of the planet, which means we are currently operating on reduced bandwidth, international optimism, one very brave undersea cable, and some Australians who are staying up way past their bedtime. Thank you very much to our guests today who are joining us on long distance mode. We have boosted the signal and realigned the satellite, and someone is gently tapping the National Broadband Network and trying to give it some encouragement. If at any point there is a stutter, an echo, or someone freezes mid-sentence with an undignified expression... That's just normal for this show.
Beaming in from the far side of the world, we start today: from Lab Muffin Beauty Science, Michelle Wong. Welcome back.
Michelle:
Thank you for having me again.
Tom:
I didn't say this last time but the hair looks spectacular. For those listening in audio, you have bright orange, flame-red hair from sort of just kind of an inch down from the top of your head which is coming through my screen in colours that I was not certain my monitor could support.
Michelle:
I've invented new colours today.
Tom:
(laughs) You said last time you're working on sunscreen, which I know is a big thing for Australia. Do you continue to— to find new investigations there?
Michelle:
Yeah, oh, I— it's endless. Like, it's actually quite amazing how much sunscreen stuff you've got. I think I've got, like, four sunscreen projects going.
I'm, like— I'm making a beauty scanning app where you can scan— you know the ones where you, like, go to the sup— or, well, grocery store guys go to the, like— go to the supermarket and they scan, like, the things and they're like, "Ooh, it's all really toxic."
I'm actually making an app that kind of does the opposite of that. So it— it looks at what those apps are saying and then it just refutes them.
Tom:
I did not know these were a thing.
Dani:
People go into grocery stores to look at what's toxic?
Michelle:
Yeah, and then they film videos and post them.
Tom:
Is this a type of content that no algorithm has yet shown me?
Michelle:
That's amazing. I'm so jealous. I want to live that life.
Tom:
(laughs)
Michelle:
My blood pressure would be so happy.
Tom:
Well, best of luck on the show today.
You are of course joined by two fellow Australians – two regulars on this show. Bill Sunderland from Escape This Podcast and many other things, welcome back!
Bill:
I'm excited to be back. It's— we did very well last time we were on together and we're gonna— we're gonna— we're gonna destroy it. Every question answered four seconds or less. That's my guarantee.
Tom:
(laughs) The Bill Sunderland guarantee, which is—
Bill:
That's it.
Tom:
Let's be honest. We're not gonna make that a graphic that just becomes a repeating joke with a— with a— (mimics pounding a stamp on a desk) Stamp noise throughout the show.
Bill:
(coughs) I can't drink water!
Tom:
Ah. The Bill Sunderland guarantee has now been invalidated by Bill unfortunately inhaling water.
Dani:
And answers guaranteed in four seconds or Bill dies.
Bill:
I can tell you I would have answered all of these in four seconds but now I've choked on water and I can't do it anymore.
Tom:
And that is also a Bill Sunderland guarantee.
Bill:
That's a guarantee!
Tom:
Also joining us: Dani Siller from Escape This Podcast and many other things. Welcome back.
Dani:
So we've gone through sunscreen, we've gone through the triggering topic of the NBN now, and now I find out I shouldn't go into my supermarket? What's happening tonight?
Tom:
I did wonder if that Australian reference was gonna land 'cause I improved it into the script just, like, hoping—
Dani:
It's very hurtful.
Tom:
Is that— is that still a thing? Did it— Did it ever actually roll out? 'Cause the last time I was in Australia, people were still grumbling about it.
Dani:
We're still gonna be grumbling about it for a bit. I think they have started rolling out some improvements in some places but we're not gonna forgive and forget too easily.
Michelle:
It'll be, like, 30 years.
Bill:
It's a long-term grumble.
Tom:
Well, good luck to all of you on the show today and good luck in particular to the National Broadband Network. Let's see if curiosity can outrun geography, starting with question one.
Thank you to Lee for this question.
Shopping in the big city for the first time, a young woman was surprised to find herself surrounded by reins, saddles, and riding boots. Yet, she didn't own a horse and didn't buy anything there. What happened?
I'll say that again.
Shopping in the big city for the first time, a young woman was surprised to find herself surrounded by reins, saddles, and riding boots. Yet, she didn't own a horse and didn't buy anything there. What happened?
Dani:
Seems like she was just bad at shopping.
Michelle:
Did she just wander into a stable in, like, the 1700s?
Bill:
"Welcome to the horse store." "I don't have a horse!" "Go away!" That was it. That was the interaction. So, four seconds. Move on.
Tom:
Bill Sunderland guarantee.
Bill:
Exactly.
Dani:
(giggles)
Bill:
Surely we're in the situation where there's non-horse items that can be described with horse-like terms.
Dani:
I was wondering if there was something misleading about those, but I don't know anything else that is... riding boots. That seems really self-explanatory. "The big city" definitely caught my eye— ear. Brain.
Bill:
Yeah.
Tom:
(laughs)
Dani:
Which I have!
Bill:
Hmm, I dunno. Saddle just feels like so— like, anything could be a saddle. It feels like it's the cut of a diamond. I don't think it is, but—
Michelle:
It's like the type of mountain, right?
Bill:
Yeah, anything that dips. Oh, that – saddle. Let's call that saddle-shaped.
Tom:
You're right, Bill, about there being non-horse stuff that could be described as horse stuff. But...
SFX:
(scattered snickering)
Tom:
More of a mishearing.
Bill:
Oh. Okay.
Michelle:
So "reigns", is that, like, weather raining?
Dani:
I'm under the impression less that it's we should be looking at homophones for that, but she did walk into the wrong store for a reason. Like it was a... an "equestrian" store, but she wanted a—
Bill:
"I'm on a quest. I'm on a quest for— for food and clothes."
Dani:
Yeah.
Bill:
"If this is my equestrian store, I'm questrian right now to the big city!"
Tom:
Yes, it is very much like that, Dani.
Dani:
Alright.
Tom:
And this is a personal anecdote from the mother of the person who sent in the question. So that probably gives you an idea for timelines and things like this – shopping in the big city for the first time.
Dani:
So we won't ridicule anything about this person. They're a wonderful person.
Bill:
Okay. So this big idiot is in the big city lookin' for stuff.
Tom:
(laughs heartily) But if you're talking, like, 21st century, I think everyone would understand how the big city works, and you would have a phone.
Dani:
Why do we keep using this phrasing? It's making me uncomfortable to feel the capitals in 'Big City'.
Bill:
They wanted to go to Staples. But they accidentally went to Stables.
Tom:
Now you're getting close, Bill. You're getting very close here.
Dani:
What?
Bill:
Okay, so what else is a horsey term?
Dani:
Yeah, do we thing 'stable' is a good one to go off of, or what else is there? The Barn. Ugh, that's less horsey.
Michelle:
Okay, so they've misheard the type of store she wanted to go to, and they sent her to... a horse place.
Tom:
Yes. Yeah, spot on. You just need to spot the mishearing now. (laughs) And that is—
Bill:
What do you call a horse place?
Tom:
And more than that, why might a young woman – and I don't know how old Lee's mom is – but I'm gonna assume this feels like 1950s, 1960s. What might be in the big city that isn't in the little town or even the small town or medium town that she lives in?
Bill:
Big department store.
Dani:
Elevators.
Tom:
Why might she be going on her own, as well?
Dani:
Maybe she's going to university of some sort there.
Bill:
She's looking for a man.
Tom:
She does not need a man, Bill.
Bill:
Okay.
Tom:
She's already got one.
Bill:
Oh, she has—
Michelle:
Oh, wedding dress?
Tom:
Now we're getting close, Michelle.
Bill:
Ooh. Bridal store!
Tom:
That's it, Bill!
SFX:
(Dani and Michelle shout)
Tom:
That's it.
Bill:
That person giving the advice is not very helpful. A bridal store? (snickers menacingly)
Tom:
Michelle did the assist. Bill kicked it into the goal. Yes. This is from our question submitter's mom, somewhat nervous to be in a large city for the first time, and she asked for directions to the bridal shop, and she was given directions to the bridle shop for horse-riding supplies, not for wedding dresses.
Bill:
RIP.
Dani:
That's a wild neighbourhood to have found yourself in, that that's where the brain goes first.
Tom:
The equestrian shop employee gave her new directions to find clothing for brides.
Each of our guests as ever has brought a question with them. We'll start today with Bill.
Bill:
This question has been sent in by Jack Booj.
Restaurant kitchens sometimes tape a screenshot from The Deer Hunter, Severance, or a Fatboy Slim video to a door. Why?
And I'll give you that again.
Restaurant kitchens sometimes tape a screenshot from The Deer Hunter, Severance, or a Fatboy Slim video to a door. Why?
Dani:
I have a— If we're playing Only Connect here instead of Lateral, I have some thoughts forming. But now I need to figure out what the hilarious joke is behind the connection that I found. 'Cause I'm sure there must be one.
Tom:
The first connection I've got is... So, Severance has the concept of an innie and an outie. Like you have— you have someone— you have this version of yourself that is split. You have your work self, your— I don't know which way around just 'cause I haven't seen Severance. As with nearly every media, I have just absorbed it through osmosis. But you have the innie who works, and the outie who is outside the office, and they are separate.
So I have seen plenty of restaurant kitchens where you have an in door and an out door so you don't have two waiters colliding with each other carrying trays when they go in and out. I just—
Dani:
And famously in Deer Hunter, in Russian Roulette, some of the bullets are in and some are out.
Bill:
I was gonna do the same bit! I was gonna say, "You put the bullets in either gun and you hope they don't come out when you shoot.
Tom:
I was trying to work out if there was a Fatboy Slim song which just sampled, like, "In, out, in, out, in, out," but I think I was thinking of the Vengaboys' "Up and Down." And it's all fallen apart.
Michelle:
(laughs)
Dani:
(laughs)
Michelle:
When we first got cats— adorable cats but very, very stupid, they used to run straight into a glass door because it was too clean. We never cleaned the door but apparently that was too clean for them. And so we ended up sticking post-it notes, so is the answer... The restaurant people— like, it was too clean. They couldn't see that there was a door there and so they had to stick something and someone was like, "Well, I love this video."
Bill:
(laughs)
Michelle:
Gotta have the dude— what— Christopher Walken floating around.
Dani:
You have found the connection that I think there is between these things 'cause it's certainly in Deer Hunter.
Michelle:
Oh.
Tom:
Okay.
Michelle:
Is it about the—
Tom:
Oh!
SFX:
(both stammering)
Tom:
It's the walk-in kitchen—
Dani:
Walk-in freezers?
Tom:
No, wait! No—
Michelle:
Did we do that too fast?
Tom:
No, hold on! It can't be because I don't think Christopher Walken is in Severance.
Dani:
Is he not? Lots of people are in it.
Bill:
I'm sorry, Tom. Christopher Walken is in Severance.
Tom:
Oh!
Michelle:
Wow.
Dani:
Spoilers!
Bill:
Spoilers.
Tom:
It is the walk-in freezer. Okay.
Bill:
You do have it. These are all pictures of Christopher Walken. So they stick them on the walk-in freezer, or the walk-in fridge to be like, "Ha, ha, ha."
Dani:
Just for funsies?
Bill:
"Look at this."
It was— It was like when I worked in quality assurance and I put a koala on the door for koalaty insurance— assurance. Yeah, so most commercial kitchens have big, large storage rooms which are the walk-in, so to make a fun joke— and this is apparently a personal story from Jack Booj who's worked in restaurants that have done this and has heard from other employees that they also worked in restaurants that have done it, so it seems like a fun in-joke that a lot of different restaurants do to make their walk-in fridge a Walken fridge.
Dani:
Do you think Fatboy Slim is happy that the "in" that we definitely got for that was Christopher Walken dancing?
Tom:
(laughs)
Thanks to Peter Guber for this next question.
In 1911, former military man and American outlaw Elmer McCurdy robbed a train with his gang. Although they successfully breached the safe containing $4,000, it was nearly impossible to take more than 10% of the money. Why?
I'll say that again.
In 1911, former military man and American outlaw Elmer McCurdy robbed a train with his gang. Although they successfully breached the safe containing $4,000, it was nearly impossible to take more than 10% of the money. Why?
Dani:
Don't you hate it when you go to commit a bank robbery and it's all in pennies? Honestly.
Bill:
I mean, that was my first thought. If it was all gold bars— maybe he didn't go to the bridal store. So he didn't have enough horse... storage to fit all of these gold bars. So he went—
Tom:
I thought you were gonna go for horse power.
Dani:
That felt like you were going to go horse power and then realised it wasn't gonna work and just deploy— deflected halfway through.
Bill:
But is this like— if 1911 and you're robbing a train, you're probably doing it on horseback. Maybe the horse just was like, "That's all the gold I can carry. I'm done. I can take 10% of that gold—"
Michelle:
"I'm on strike."
Bill:
Yeah.
Dani:
1911, is that pretty bang on for when "Red Dead Redemption" is set?
Bill:
That sounds about right.
Dani:
Okay, we can get a good brain picture of that, then. That's perfect. You gotta rob trains in that, probably.
Bill:
Yeah. Plenty of train robbery.
Dani:
It's been a while.
Bill:
And I took all the gold.
Dani:
Hmm. Yeah, it's really hard to get away from something is just heavy. Why else besides that might you not take anything?
Tom:
It wasn't especially bulky. It— This was inside a safe. Like, they're robbing the train. The money is inside a safe on the train.
Dani:
Are they trying to take the entire safe? ...would be the next thought. Like, is it that they're going into it and taking stuff out of it or is it just a grab the safe and haul it out?
Tom:
The safe would have been too heavy. You're right.
Dani:
Yeah, okay. So they needed to actually get in.
Bill:
They blew up the safe and it destroyed 90% of the—
Dani:
Oh, that's a bummer.
Bill:
Bearer bonds inside. People, like— people loved stealing bonds in the 1910s. Everybody's stealing bonds from everybody else.
Dani:
Weren't bonds more a war thing?
Bill:
Oh, I think the government did a lot of train bonds. Didn't they do a lot of railway bonds to, like, fund the railways, they would sell bonds, rather than as a pre-war— before it was war bonds? I thought it was railway bonds in America. I could be wrong. I thought that was a thing.
Tom:
Bill, you have identified how they breached the safe.
Bill:
Oh, okay. But nothing about all those bonds.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Bill:
They blew it up!
Tom:
They did. There was $4,000 inside.
Dani:
Whoo-hoo! So 10% of that is $400. Look at me go.
Bill:
This is— this is fantastic.
Michelle:
What are bonds made of? Are they made of paper? Is it something like, they tried to blow it up and it lit on fire but, I don't know, 10% of each sheet is not flammable?
Dani:
Or it's the other way around and it's not fire. It was raining outside and they'd dissolve if you took them out.
Tom:
You have all locked onto bearer bonds and Bill just invented that.
Dani:
Yep.
Bill:
No, but money's— money is also made of—
Dani:
Money is also paper sometimes.
Bill:
I'm not the government. I don't just invent the bonds. But even money, right, might get surely fairly easily destroyed in an explosion.
Tom:
That was kind of the problem. Yes... You don't quite have the right picture of— of what was inside the safe.
Dani:
No, I assume I don't. What was the prevailing currency—
Tom:
Elmer McCurdy had not been in the military for very long.
Bill:
Hmm. What's wrong with Elmer McCurdy? He doesn't know how bombs work. He skips training.
Tom:
Yes, that is— that is correct. He didn't have much training.
Bill:
So he thinks, "When you wanna blow up a safe, you need as many pounds of dynamite as the safe weighs.
Dani:
Did he die? Is that why he couldn't take it?
Bill:
Yeah, he could only take 10% 'cause he was crawling dead with no body left.
Tom:
He did survive. But as you've suspected, Bill, he used far too much nitroglycerin.
Dani:
Okat, did a— do we think maybe a lot of what was in the safe— whatever it may have been, that's still apparently a blurry mystery in my mind's eye— did it just fall out? The train kept going, he blew a big hole in the train, and it just started falling and he could only grab what little bits were left?
Tom:
The rest of the value was still inside the safe.
Dani:
This doesn't sound like we're talking about money.
Tom:
We are.
Bill:
Have you seen those videos where they try and fire an anvil as high in the air as they possibly can? It's like a sport in the American South or somewhere in Amer— where they just—
Tom:
Anvil shooting.
Bill:
Yeah, anvil shoot— where they just get as many explosives as they can and they put it in a big metal barrel, they put an anvil on top, and they see how high they can get the anvil and they blow it up.
Dani:
I have not. Thank you.
Bill:
They're good videos.
Dani:
Thank you for this gift.
Bill:
Is that what happened to the safe? Did it go very, very far away?
Tom:
(laughs) There is another effect that could happen here. It wasn't bearer bonds and it wasn't notes, either.
Dani:
Yeah, were there coins that sorta melted together or something?
Tom:
Yes, there were, Dani.
Dani:
Ohhh!
Bill:
Ohhh!
Dani:
Okay!
Bill:
Coins!
Tom:
$4,000 in silver coins. So if there were ever a time for character work, Bill, put together the scene for Elmer McCurdy.
Bill:
C'mon, boys, we're gonna get those silver dollars! Ah, we gotta get— get up on the train, everybody! Hup, alright! Now, I've been in the army. They trained me in this whole thing. What you do is you take as many explosives as you can. You just fill your boots with 'em, you take your boots off, you put the boots on the safe. And then you get everybody else's boots and your horse's boots and everything.
Alright, how much we got? 200 pounds! That's perfect to me! Alright, now we'll only have a problem, you see... If the silver melts. But don't worry! My uncle is a chemist and he told me silver can't melt! It ain't possible!
Now, he did wink at me, but I think it's just 'cause I'm so handsome. So, uh, let's blow it up! Boys!
Tom:
And then there is a loud bang and the gang can scratch out silver worth $450 and leave the remaining, uh, $3,550 inside the safe as melted silver. You're absolutely—
Bill:
Just as planned!
Dani:
It's gonna turn into a really cool sculpture at some point, though.
Tom:
In another instant, McCurdy's gang robbed a passenger train instead of a train carrying government salaries, and stole $46.
Bill:
Oh.
SFX:
(both laughing)
Dani:
Oh, McCurdy.
Tom:
Well—
Dani:
Dear!
Tom:
You— It's difficult to feel sorry for someone who is just thieving money from people. But if you would like the coda to the story, no one paid the bill for his funeral. And the funeral director used the body of the famous outlaw as a tourist attraction. It then became a prop in at least two films...
Dani:
(laughs)
Tom:
A museum exhibit, and a decoration at an amusement park. And—
Dani:
Oh!
Tom:
Elmer McCurdy was finally laid to rest in 1977.
Bill:
Oh, poor Elmer. Why'd you make me love this guy by doing a silly voice?
Tom:
Michelle, we will head over to you for the next question, please.
Michelle:
Alright.
This question has been sent in by Bastiaan.
At a famous menswear shop in Utrecht, students could order a suit "with all the trimmings". It didn't change the suit at all, but it cost an extra 100 guilders. Why?
So again.
At a famous menswear shop in Utrecht, students could order a suit "with all the trimmings". It didn't change the suit at all, but it cost an extra 100 gilders. Why?
Bill:
'Cause this one had tabbouleh and cheese.
Dani:
I was absolutely wondering, "Did it come with food trimmings?" The pockets had little bits pork scratching inside them.
Michelle:
Snacks.
Tom:
This is definitely a historical question because gilders have not been the currency of the Netherlands since I think the year 2000 when they went to the Euro.
Dani:
Yeah, sounds about right.
Bill:
It feels a bit like a phrase origin. Like, now we say, "Give me, you know, whatever with all the trimmings," and it's usually in a food context and it's all the extra stuff that comes with. "Oh, yeah, also give me all the sides or things." If you're going to a tailor, is it about, like, I buy a huge sheet of satin effectively, or whatever you're making my clothes out of— it's like, "Make me the clothes—"
Dani:
A satin suit?
Bill:
But also—
Tom:
Ooh.
Bill:
It was— Who know— I don't know what time was. But also, give me all the trimmings. Like, give me all the extra cloth that you didn't use to make the suit and then I'll have a big pile of cloth, and I can take it with me and I can sit— like, these are the literal trimmings and maybe there's a lot of value in them 'cause it's like, yeah, just give me all— give me all of it. Cut out the clothes—
Dani:
You'll be able to make lots of tiny suits for all of your mice after that.
Bill:
And then I wanna make tiny suits for all of my mice. And... so give me all the trimmings. And they were just very expensive trimmings.
Tom:
But why would a student want those? I mean, other than just general student—
Dani:
Because students are slobs. They've got a lot of mice.
Tom:
General student shenanigans is— that said, I do have a thing in my head on, like, Utrecht and, like, Dutch students having some weird rituals. I know that British students have some weird rituals, but Dutch students—
Dani:
Yeah, none of this would be a surprise.
Tom:
Yes.
Bill:
Maybe you— he's— you request. You say, "Hey, can you make me some clothes and also can you do me, uh, one pocket that, uh, maybe the material should be, mm, this year's final exam and then just give me all the trimmings as well. Just cut out a pocket and then give me the rest of the final exam."
Dani:
Is the Dutch word "trimmings" the same as the Dutch word, "cheating?"
Bill:
Yeah, and so they— and so the tailor who also has all the final exams at the school gives you the rest of the final exam for the next year or for this year. That's probably it.
Michelle:
Surprisingly it has— it doesn't have much to do with, like, linguistics.
Bill:
Okay.
Dani:
Well, that's devastating.
Bill:
Why are we even here?
Tom:
And just to check, like, Bill wasn't right with the trimmings, was he?
Michelle:
No, it's not— It doesn't have to do with cloth.
Tom:
I thought Bill had got it immediately there. I was playing for time.
Michelle:
There is something to do with students being poor, kind of.
Dani:
So why would a university student wear a suit? They do like to dress up for graduation but I wouldn't say a suit is necessarily typical, but I won't... say no. Their first job interview. They probably want a suit for that.
Bill:
The big dance.
Michelle:
It is a little bit scammy as well. Like—
Dani:
Scammy.
Michelle:
Kinda. Like, oh.
Bill:
They—
Michelle:
Student-level scammy.
Bill:
They just— They just need the front part of the suit and they— and they save money not having the back part of the suit and they just make sure they always face the most influential person in the room.
Dani:
And we did hear that the suit wouldn't be any different.
Tom:
Yeah.
Michelle:
It might be a little bit different.
Dani:
Ooh.
Michelle:
It does have "all the trimmings." In quotation marks.
Tom:
Female students couldn't go to school so they buy the suit and they get the "trimmings" to make a fake mustache out of.
Dani:
I love it.
Tom:
But you said this wasn't about the trimmings of the cloth, right? It's not like they're pulling those away to make a free waist kerchief or something like that.
Michelle:
It's metaphorical.
Tom:
They're definitely metaphorical trimmings.
Bill:
Can we think about the currency of it? Did you say it was 1,000 gilders? Is that the— how much we're working with?
Michelle:
100 gilders.
Bill:
100, Okay.
Michelle:
This would have been, like, yeah. Early 1900s-ish, I think is when this started.
Tom:
Okay, so old 20th century.
Dani:
That does make— when it started does make it sound like an ongoing sort of tradition, Tom, like you were thinking.
Bill:
You get all the trimmings. 100 gilders is some amount. Let's— if they're— if the point is that they're poor students, it's probably not a fortune. It's probably a smortune.
Tom:
So what are they also getting?
Dani:
Why are they wearing suits?
Tom:
Yeah! Oh, actually, if this is early 20th century, it may have just been required.
Dani:
Oh, interesting.
Tom:
Like, if you go back to the first half of the 20th century, you— people wore suits.
Bill:
Yeah. All suits.
Tom:
That was just what you wore. The T-shirt hadn't really become a thing then. And certainly if you're going to formal lectures, you would need to wear a suit.
Michelle:
Who you you think would pay for this suit?
Bill:
Ooh!
Tom:
Oh.
Bill:
Oh, is it just their par— is it just a way to say, "Add to the cost. My parents will pay," and then you give me that cash back?
Michelle:
That's really close. Keep going.
Tom:
Okay. So they're scamming the parents.
Dani:
Yeah, so you're thinking their parents gave them some money to buy a suit for some occasion possibly, or just to be with the times.
Tom:
Yeah, so it's not just, "Add a load of things to the bill."
Bill:
Yeah. And it's a— and it could also— I mean, I'm assuming parents— I mean, maybe they've got some kind of, like, stipend they're given to spend on clothing or something like that but someone's paying for it.
Dani:
Why wouldn't they be able to just pocket the money?
Bill:
Yeah.
Dani:
Like, what is necessary about this exchange?
Tom:
I assumed it was just like, "Can you make the receipt bigger? Can you charge me for things that you haven't done?"
Michelle:
There might have been— the suit itself is not going to end up changed. They still get the cheaper suit.
Bill:
They get the cheap suit. Do you— Is it the tag? Is it changing out to make it look like it was the more expensive suit? Saying, "This is actually a very expensive suit."
Tom:
In the question, Michelle, is it just the student going into this shop, or are they being, like, taken in by their— by their parents? Their father is taking the young man for his first suit for university and he is paying. 'Cause I— 'Cause in my head, this is independent students in, like, the 21st century but if it's, like, the '20s, the '30s, then is it gonna be the dad coming in with the kid? And the kid can't pull the scam?
Bill:
Oh, Tom, you're right! If the parents are there, do they just sew it into the suit? Or is that, like, "Just put it in the lining of the suit. Just fill it with cash."
Dani:
Like, one of those pockets that isn't openable and— until you get home later?
Tom:
They take your measurements, they put the suit together, and then when you take your suit back there is just 100 gilders... I dunno, in the pocket— sewn into the pocket?
Michelle:
That's pretty much it. It's sewn into the lining of the jacket or the trousers. It's discreetly stitched in. And they could take it and go off partying.
Bill:
I love it. What a great tailor.
Michelle:
Yeah, so this was in the Utrecht menswear store P.J.M. Conemans. The students could order a "pak met" which is the Dutch phrase for "suit with" which sounds a bit like with just food orders. They say, "fries met," which— well, I can't speak Dutch, clearly. But that means "fries with." But here this is like a nod, nod, wink, wink thing where the tailor would just discreetly stitch the 100 gilder bank note into the lining of the jacket or the trousers so the parents would get a pretty ordinary-looking invoice for a slightly more expensive suit and then the student could later just get the money out and go off partying. And according to the shop owner's son, this was just really well-known.
Tom:
Thank you to Ethan for this question.
In the 1910s, Claude and Harvey have travelled with their Boy Scout group to the seaside. Suddenly, Claude starts hitting Harvey in the face. Doing so saves both of their lives. How?
One more time.
In the 1910s, Claude and Harvey have travelled with their Boy Scout group to the seaside. Suddenly, Claude starts hitting Harvey in the face. Doing so saves both of their lives. How?
Dani:
The lesser known thing, that if you encounter a mountain lion, you have to make yourself look as violent and self-destructive as possible, and it will scare them.
Bill:
That's it.
Michelle:
I was thinking, like, Harvey might be a shark, but...
Dani:
That is a good point. Do we think that this— what was it, Harvey and Claude?
Tom:
And Claude.
Dani:
Are they special people? Should we know who these Harvey and Claude are?
Michelle:
Are they humans?
Tom:
As ever with Lateral questions, it's worth checking, but these two are human.
Bill:
Okay, cool, cool, cool. Two humans that have some scouts— is this where—
Tom:
Yeah, Boy Scouts.
Bill:
Boy Scouts. And they go to the sea, and they go, "Oh, sorry, wait. We're gonna die. Let me just punch Harvey in the face."
Tom:
Yes. You have missed obviously several important parts in there, but that's accurate, yeah.
Dani:
Saving both of their lives. So what sorts of risks might there be? There could be animal risks. There could be other human risks. There could be weather risks.
Bill:
It's the boys turning on them. Harvey was about to say, "And of course we— I didn't bring any lollies."
Dani:
"I've got the conch."
Bill:
Oh, yeah, "I've got—" And then he says, "No, shut up, Harvey! The kids'll kill us both!"
Michelle:
1910s, that's, like, World War I, right?
Dani:
Gettin' there, yeah.
Michelle:
Is this some sort of war— war thing?
Tom:
Yeah, approaching that.
Dani:
Oh, no!
Bill:
Harvey.
Dani:
It's "The Beachers".
Tom:
Oh!
Dani:
That's pretty sad.
Tom:
Wrong war, but this is— these are—
Dani:
I think there were beachers in multiple wars. I think we went up onto the shores of Gallipoli.
Bill:
Are you forgetting about Gallipoli, Tom? There's three Australians in this room.
Dani:
The beaches! The beaches!
Tom:
I had mistaken which war Gallipoli was in.
Bill:
(laughs)
Dani:
Don't deny our trauma.
Tom:
These, however, are Boy Scouts, not officers of the military.
Dani:
You can be both. Little known fact.
Bill:
The— Harvey went, "And I'll show you all how this flare gun works", and he was gonna fire it, but the military was ready to attack any time a flare went off. And so he had to get punched in the face.
Dani:
Bill, I feel like this could be— this feels like it would be some sort of staple lesson that you would teach someone in martial arts.
Bill:
(cracks up) Always punch Harvey in the face.
Tom:
(belly laughs)
Dani:
You know, just— It will teach him a lesson somehow. He is doing something wrong. And if you punch him in the face, that means he'll never do it again.
Bill:
I don't think that's true. (chuckles)
Dani:
Like, if he were facing the flare gun, but the flare gun has lots of recoil, and that Harvey's holding it. And so Claude punches him in the face and says, "That's what recoil feels like! That's what recoil feels like!"
Bill:
"It'll kill you!"
Dani:
"Stop it!"
Bill:
Oh, I don't know. Michelle, I was not a scout. Were you ever a scout of some description?
Michelle:
I was a Brownie Guide.
Bill:
In the 1910s?
Tom:
(laughs)
Michelle:
Unfortunately not.
Dani:
Was there much punching in the face involved?
Michelle:
No, there were just cookies. Really good cookies. I miss the cookies.
Bill:
You can go back.
Michelle:
We did learn how to light fires and stuff.
Bill:
Eh.
Tom:
Dani, you said "stop it" in there. That is what he's trying—
Dani:
Very emphatically.
Tom:
Yeah, you're— That is what Claude is trying to get Harvey to do. He's trying to get Harvey to stop something. You also talked about risks there, like animal, weather. You did not identify the risk.
Dani:
Ooh, I said animals, other humans, and weather. What else have we got going for us? I'm scared of everything. I'm really paranoid. I should get this.
Bill:
Explosives.
Dani:
Sunburn.
Bill:
Artillery shells that are dug up on the beach.
Michelle:
Was he about to light a fire?
Bill:
Smoking.
Michelle:
Or some other thing that would draw their attention— draw attention to them.
Bill:
Yeah, but also why can't you just be like, "Hey, Harvey, don't do that"?
Dani:
It was really urgent.
Tom:
Good question. Very good question.
Bill:
He had... Yeah, why— He had earmuffs on.
Michelle:
He was wearing AirPods. He can't hear you.
Bill:
He had his AirPods in. Why do you have to punch him in the face to stop him?
Tom:
Yes, this technique is not recommended today, but why might you have to punch someone in the face to stop them?
Dani:
Was he sleepwalking?
Bill:
Was he snoring? And they— he just punched the nose right in, and he'll stop.
Dani:
'Cause I say if he was going to sleepwalk off a cliff, I'd punch him in the face, too.
Bill:
But that wouldn't save both of their lives, right? That would only— you don't have to fall off—
Dani:
He was sleep carrying you off a cliff.
Bill:
Now that's much better. That's how you get lateral.
Tom:
There is one key thing that... as soon as one of you spots it, it's gonna be obvious so I'm keeping my mouth shut.
Michelle:
Is it drowning? Like—
Tom:
Michelle, keep thinking.
Michelle:
(gasps) Oh, is this the thing where when someone's drowning, they claw their rescuer and...
Dani:
They do!
Michelle:
make both of them drown, and so you have to knock him out?
Tom:
That was the advice in the 1911 Boy Scouts handbook. If you are saving someone from drowning, and they are holding you in what is called a death grip, according to that handbook, "you should stun or even knock out the person you're rescuing."
Bill:
I mean, I get it.
Dani:
Yeah. It's fair. It's very much— it's still very big of a thing in... first aid is make sure you are protecting yourself before you rescue the person. It's the same as airline things. Put on your own mask first.
Tom:
To be clear, this is very bad advice. Don't do it.
Bill:
Please do it.
Dani:
(giggles)
Tom:
Firstly because it's difficult to strike hard enough to do that, and second, because... there are two types of knocking someone out, and they tend to be either brief or fatal. So the advice these days is you approach people in need from below or behind, so they can't grab onto you.
Dani:
Oh, that's much better.
Michelle:
I thought you were gonna say you choke them out instead.
Bill:
Yeah.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Dani:
There's an interesting amount of, like, I don't know, when the elements get involved, and your body shuts down because of it, goes into self-destructive mode. It's a thing with hypothermia as well, that eventually your body— your brain just sort of decides, "No, I want to disrobe and leap right into the snow."
Tom:
Yep. If I remember right, it's because if you're drowning you are instinctively trying to grab onto anything floating or anything that is just ground, and another body is something that might—
Dani:
Close enough.
Tom:
What you're actually doing is pulling them down instead. So yes, this is the 1911 very bad advice to knock out the person you're trying to save from drowning.
Dani, we will head over to you, please.
Dani:
Absolutely. Now, are we ready to go back to the Netherlands, guys?
Tom:
Eyy! It's two Dutch questions!
Dani:
This question has been sent in by Ferdinand.
Thank you so much. In 1951, the Dutch Post Office released a 2-cent stamp showing a smiling girl in front of a windmill. Many millers were upset by this. Why?
And one more time.
In 1951, the Dutch Post Office released a two-cent stamp showing a smiling girl in front of a windmill. Many millers were upset by this. Why?
Tom:
All the women working in our windmills are very unhappy.
Bill:
"They hate work! This is a myth that anyone's ever happy near a windmill!"
Dani:
Oh, as far as— to the best of my knowledge – people who worked and lived at windmills were people. They could feel emotions.
Bill:
That's what they say.
Michelle:
Was there something really tiny like, I don't know, the girl had brown hair and... (exhales sharply) I don't know. Or, like, the windmill. There's something wrong with the windmill specifically.
Bill:
I think it's probably more likely the windmill than the girl, right? It's probably more, "Hey, I love that smiling girl, but that windmill's— it's turning one way but—" I mean, it's probably not turning. It's a still image. It's turning one way, but the sails are set up so it would just be— it wouldn't turn at all. The top sail's going clockwise, and the bottom sail's going anti-clockwise. What is it, some kind of magic windmill?
Michelle:
Did you make this with AI?
Bill:
Yeah.
SFX:
(Tom and Dani laugh)
Tom:
This wind— This windmill is inaccurate, and we will not stand for it.
Bill:
Exactly.
Dani:
So we'll say it was nothing, like, physically impossible. I assume they actually got, like, a photo of a windmill to make into this composite image that they did. But it's— You're definitely in the right sort of thing to be thinking about— they weren't happy with the windmill.
Bill:
Michelle, you're a smiling girl. Have you ever been in front of a windmill?
SFX:
(group laughing)
Michelle:
Oh, I wonder if it's— is it like the girl is, like, the wrong size, and the windmill is, like, way too small or way too big or like, a— Is it a windmill for ants?
Dani:
I do have a picture in front of me, and the way that it's composited, the girl is very forward compared to the windmill. The windmill is very much in the background.
Michelle:
So it is a windmill for ants.
Dani:
Little bit, but I don't think that's what they're going for.
Michelle:
Is it some sort of superstition where, like, I don't know, young girls should not be standing in front of a windmill? They're only allowed to approach from behind in case they get grabbed onto and they drown?
Tom:
(laughs)
Bill:
Exactly.
Tom:
Or get swept up by the sails and spun 'round.
Dani:
Thankfully, it's not about that, and the little smiling girl, it could have been sort of an any smiling anybody yet still would have been—
Bill:
Is it that no one should ever stand in front of a windmill? You're not allowed—
Dani:
No. It's not a— it's not a safety matter at all. In fact, superstition, not exactly what I— the word I would use but definitely getting along the right lines.
Bill:
Never turn your back on a windmill. It's bad luck.
Dani:
So you're very much right about, the what you can see of— the visuals of the windmill caused them consternation.
Bill:
Is it that you're never meant to take a photo of a windmill? Because if there's a stationary picture of a windmill, it'll never turn again. It's locked in place. You've trapped the soul of the windmill.
Dani:
It's not that, but the fact that it is stationary in the image is relevant.
Tom:
If a windmill is stationary, does it have to be locked into a particular position, and this one is wrong?
Dani:
Yeah, no, it also— it wasn't practical about it. It was, yeah, I would say more symbolic than anything else.
Bill:
The windmill shall always turn. An ever-turning windmill. Like the windmills in your mind. Turning and turning.
Michelle:
Is there, like— was there, like, a strike that year or something, and it was very embarrassing for them, and it got resolved, and then, I don't know, before the 1950s, all the windmills had, like, little action— like, cartoony action spinning things?
Dani:
It's not that. You know what I would say? I don't— Maybe this is too big of a hint for it. I would argue that while I don't know this about how windmill traditions work, but I certainly know that there's similar sorts of things regarding other objects, say, flags.
Bill:
Oh, the windmill was upside down, indicating it was in distress.
Dani:
Look, obviously not that, but—
Bill:
They were flying it at half-mill.
Dani:
Also obviously not that, but you are absolutely in the right zone.
Michelle:
Is it like, the cloth was attached to the wrong side of the... Is there even cloth in windmills?
Dani:
I don't know enough about windmills to know what's cloth!
Tom:
Have they flipped the photo of the windmill? So it looked... wrong somehow? No...
Dani:
Well... It's not that it looked wrong. There was definitely nothing actually wrong with the image.
Michelle:
Did they use the maritime windmill instead of the more national windmill?
Bill:
You know, it's a common misconception. That's not a windmill. It's a naval ensign.
Dani:
This is a thing that millers with their windmills, they would signal things. That they would be able to, like—
Tom:
Oh! Oh, do they attach stuff to the sails to si— to send messages?
Dani:
It's not attaching stuff to the sails, but it is the sails.
Michelle:
Is it like if the millers passed away, they do something with the sails, and—
Dani:
Yes.
Michelle:
And so now they— it looks like it's, like, some—
Tom:
It's a windmill in mourning? They took a photo of a windmill that was in mourning and used that as the stamp?
Dani:
That is exactly what it was.
Bill:
Now the girl looks like the killer.
Dani:
What millers do if they are trying to represent certain things – for example, mourning, say, if a family member has died, if a close friend of the mill has died – they will stop the windmill with these sails in a certain position.
Michelle:
Oh, in a cross? Like, in a—
Dani:
Actually, no. It was... it was... It was just, like—
Bill:
X, he's dead.
Dani:
A little bit off a full cross.
Tom:
And there's a smiling girl in front of the mourning windmill.
Bill:
"I love that this person's dead!"
Tom:
Oh, no!
Bill:
"I killed them myself with my bare hands!"
Dani:
They're— That little girl looks real happy that her milling family has all died.
Michelle:
So it's like the 1950s version of that, like, smiling girl in front of the burning house meme.
SFX:
(others laughing)
Bill:
Yeah, exactly.
Dani:
Yeah, so you're absolutely right.
They would send messages through their windmills, if their windmills were staying still.
So we do have, like, if they were in a plus sign, it mean that they were taking a short pause. If they were in an X, it meant a longer rest. And for this one, if the lowest sail is just a little bit after the doorway, it's mourning. And that's exactly what was happening in this one. If it goes a little bit before the doorway, it's a celebration, though. Could have gone with that. That would be if there was a birth or a wedding. Something like that.
And yeah, it... was completely unintentional that they made happy girl next to very sad windmill, but certainly the experts paid attention.
Bill:
I love it.
Tom:
So all we have left is the question from the very start of the show.
Who would be grateful for a horse's golden slippers?
Anyone want to take a guess at that?
Dani:
Isn't the golden slipper the name of an award that some event—
Bill:
Oh, I was gonna say it was Lee's mom.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Dani:
Isn't it— Isn't the Golden Slipper a thing that you get for winning a thing?
Tom:
Almost certainly but I don't think it belongs to a horse.
Dani:
Oh, well, Formula One people drink milk out of a shoe. Why not?
Tom:
They what?
Dani:
Okay, maybe that's just Australians who do it out of a shoe.
Bill:
I don't think it's— Is it milk? I thought it was alcohol.
Dani:
No, no. They drink milk. Australians just drink everything out of a shoe and I've conflated the two.
Bill:
That's true. Horse's golden slipper. I— Hey, are we back to a horse that is not— is not really horse things?
Dani:
I mean, it certainly can't be an actual horse slipper.
Bill:
Yeah, they probably don't wear 'em?
Tom:
It is an actual horse.
Bill:
An actual horse. It has a golden slipper.
Dani:
I've never— Michelle, you went to agricultural school.
Michelle:
We didn't have horses 'cause the head teacher was scared of horses.
Dani:
What? Of all things!
Michelle:
Yeah, so I know nothing about horses and so I'm useless in this question. Thanks, Mr. Brown.
Tom:
If there had been horses at your agricultural school, yeah, you would— you would probably know this one.
Bill:
Grandpa Ed was a horse and he won a Golden Slipper to go with his son Charlie... To the glue factory.
Michelle:
(laughs)
Tom:
The horse only has these once.
Dani:
Are they their baby feet?
Tom:
Yes.
Dani:
Their baby hooves?
Tom:
Yes. Yes, they are.
Bill:
Oh! Baby hooves!
Tom:
The technical term is the deciduous hoof capsule. It's kind of a rubbery layer that sits around the hooves.
Dani:
Okay, well Bill, you said glue factory, and now I think you're right.
Tom:
Who might be grateful for the very young horse having these baby shoes?
Dani:
Oh, the mother horse!
Tom:
The mother horse. Yes. Absolutely.
Dani:
Oh, boy!
Bill:
Of course.
Tom:
The mother horse would be very grateful for their foal having the golden slippers that fall off very quickly after birth.
Congratulations to all our players! Where can people find you? What are you up to?
We will start with Dani!
Dani:
So if you go onto Twitch, at playthisgame_live, we've been doing weekly puzzle games again. We brought that back and we're having a great time with the good ones and an awful time with the bad ones!
Tom:
And Bill.
Bill:
And aside from that you can check out all our regular content – escape rooms played by fun guests at Escape This Podcast, and murder mysteries played by us and written for the other at Solve This Murder. It's a lot of fun. There's stories and puzzles and joy. And death.
Tom:
And Michelle.
Michelle:
I'm at @LabMuffinBeautyScience. I'm on YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, probably other places I've forgotten, talking about the science behind beauty products.
Tom:
And if you want to know more about this show or send your own ideas for questions or join Lateral's Producer's Club, you can do that at lateralcast.com. We are at @lateralcast basically everywhere and there are full video episodes every week on Spotify.
Thank you very much to Michelle Wong.
Michelle:
Thank you very much from the future.
Tom:
Bill Sunderland.
Bill:
Thank you very much from 1911.
Tom:
And Dani Siller.
Dani:
Thank you very much from, like, three hours ago. That's how long it's taking my NBN to catch up.
Tom:
I've been Tom Scott, and that's been Lateral.
Episode Credits
| HOST | Tom Scott |
| QUESTION PRODUCER | David Bodycombe |
| EDITED BY | Julie Hassett at The Podcast Studios, Dublin |
| MUSIC | Karl-Ola Kjellholm ('Private Detective'/'Agrumes', courtesy of epidemicsound.com) |
| ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS | Bastiaan, Ferdinand, Jack Booj, Lee, Peter Guber, Ethan |
| FORMAT | Pad 26 Limited/Labyrinth Games Ltd |
| EXECUTIVE PRODUCERS | David Bodycombe and Tom Scott |