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Episode 210: A dry labyrinth
16th October, 2026 • Elle Cordova, Jarvis Johnson and Jordan Adika face questions about sneaky songs, maddening metal and trailer toys.
Transcription by Caption+
Tom:
Nick asks someone to choose any name, and he'll sing a popular song with that name in the lyrics. How?
The answer to that at the end of the show. My name's Tom Scott, and this is Lateral.
Sorry, just give me a second. I'm just completing the standard pre-show checklist.
Microphone, tick.
Studio lights, tick.
Pens that work... (clicks pen and scribbles) Tick, surprisingly.
Understanding the questions, put that as pending.
Coffee level... (sips) Adequate.
Small parasitic arachnid, tick.
Producer has his security blankie, tick.
Guests haven't escaped yet... tick, tick, tick. Excellent, all done.
Hoping that's the final time that I'll tick them off on this episode, first, we have: from her own science fiction book club and making things for the internet, Elle Cordova. Welcome back to Lateral.
Elle:
Hi, Tom. Thanks for having me.
Tom:
Well, thank you for being part of the show. How did you find the first episode you were on?
Elle:
It was thrilling. I learned a lot. I realized, you know, I didn't know a lot.
SFX:
(others chuckling)
Elle:
And I used my lateral brain.
Tom:
Tell me about the book club, 'cause we didn't talk about that last time.
Elle:
Yeah. So it's a science fiction book club I started about a year ago with my friend Grace Jost, and we are reading through the classics, a few newer ones, and we host it all on Patreon.
There's a livestream. People can come hang out, read the book. At the end of the month, we talk about it, share our thoughts, and often... as is the case with science fiction, weirdly things apply to our time and our, you know...
Tom:
(laughs)
Elle:
our future and our present. So, it's always an interesting thing to see, you know, what, what was prescient, what could still be down the way, and gives interesting illumination to our situation.
Tom:
Can you give me one book recommendation? What's the good— What's the best one?
Elle:
I think so far one of my favorites has been Kazuo Ishiguro's, Klara and the Sun.
Tom:
I don't know it.
Elle:
It's a really beautiful book. It's beau— It's science fiction. It's speculative. It's beautiful. It's humanist. It's— He's a— He's— He won the Nobel Prize for Literature a few years back, I think for good reason, and this is his speculative work.
Tom:
And now I feel bad for not knowing it. Thank you very much.
Hopefully, we will know more about the questions in this episode than I do about that author. Good luck on the show today.
We are joined again by the two members of the Sad Boyz podcast, and I think this time we will go first to Jarvis Johnson. Welcome back to the show.
Jarvis:
Hello, hello. Thanks for having me.
Just found out I've been trapped, and I can't get out. So, I'll be emotionally processing that for the rest of the show.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Tom:
How are you doing, Jarvis? What... The thing is we're recording this well in advance, so I'm kind of— I'm asking, what's on the horizon for you right now?
Jarvis:
Ooh. What's on the horizon? I think... nothing. Which is like—
Tom:
In which case, have you got any science fiction book recommendations?
Jarvis:
This one's—
Elle:
I'm all ears.
Jarvis:
I was gonna say, this is more in the... cyberpunk genre, but Neuromancer by William Gibson.
Tom:
Classic.
Elle:
We're reading that this month.
Jarvis:
Wow!
Tom:
Eyy!
Elle:
I guess, by the time this airs, we will have already read it.
Tom:
Yep.
Elle:
But that... nice call.
Jordan:
That's great.
Jarvis:
Look at that. Look at that. By the way, I will say that, going to a very techy college, my English class— I was able to take an English class that was centered around cyberpunk.
Tom:
Wow.
Elle:
I'm jealous.
Jarvis:
And... I had that thing happen where I imagine all authors as deceased, and then I started seeing—
SFX:
(Tom and Jordan laugh)
Jarvis:
I started seeing tweets from William Gibson on my Twitter feed, and I was like, "This is really messing me up."
Jordan:
"Welcome back."
Tom:
Well, also joining us, the other half... No, I can't say the other half. It feels like you're lesser, Jordan. Please welcome—
Jordan:
No, it's alright.
Tom:
one half of the Sad Boyz Podcast, Jordan Adika.
Jordan:
I'm 51% of the show.
Jarvis:
Yeah, you're actually the greater half.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Jordan:
I'll take it.
Tom:
Again, this is pre-recorded well in advance, so I'm gonna ask you either what's well ahead in your future on Sad Boyz, or in your own work, or... do you have any good sci-fi recommendations?
Jordan:
Gosh, ambi— Oh, boy.
Tom:
(laughs heartily)
Jordan:
Ambition, flushing that away. Not sure about the future.
However... I have been reimmersing myself in the world of Night City via Cyberpunk 2077, over there on the couch on my PS5.
Tom:
(laughs)
Jordan:
I've... I'm finding myself... I'm thinking about getting cybernetics, I guess, would be what's happening in the next kinda couple months. I'm gonna see if I can get the legs that let you jump really high, get the mantis blades that come out of your wrists.
Tom:
Mhm.
Jordan:
Now thinking about the cybernetics, I don't know what the utility would be for my YouTube. (giggles) But, pretty cool.
Tom:
I do know a couple of people who've had chips inserted. Mostly just because they thought it was fun.
Jordan:
Oh, I'm in. Sold.
Tom:
(laughs)
Jordan:
Let's just do it.
Tom:
I mean, it turns out it's the same chip they use to chip pets for identity. It's just... And the same applicator, and the same everything, but—
Jordan:
It would be really cool to say, "Yeah, I'm basically a cyborg. I can be found by my owner at any time."
Elle:
Can be found by, like, Meta overlords or whoever it is.
Jordan:
"I flash red on every Ring cam in California."
Tom:
Well, good luck to all three of you on today's show.
Let's see if we can tick off question one.
This question has been sent in by Darius.
After unloading, a truck driver straps a plastic toy onto his flatbed trailer. Why?
I'll say that again.
After unloading, a truck driver straps a plastic toy onto his flatbed trailer. Why?
Jordan:
Okay, let's get the... my most lateral possible answer out real quick. It's not the case. It was an accident. He slipped on a banana peel, was holding his favourite toy...
SFX:
(Tom and Elle chuckle)
Jordan:
And then stuck it 'cause it had a bunch of glue on it from a different cartoon accident.
Jarvis:
I'm trying to think of the reason that you would do this, but I'm imagining like a rubber duck, or like a chicken that makes a loud noise... so that you know if something is happening during... I don't know why you would do this. Flatbed trailers? Flatbed truck?
Jordan:
On the trailer? Like on the...
Tom:
Mhm.
Elle:
Yeah, 'cause usually, you know, you think of a truck driver having their little trinket in the front of the truck driving. You know, something hanging from the mirror or whatever.
Jordan:
Maybe the... Maybe his trinket's really big.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Tom:
That sounds like a euphemism, and yet...
SFX:
(group laughing)
Jarvis:
So ostensibly the strap that's being used for the toy was the same strap that was being used to, like, keep whatever parcel or package or whatever was in transit, in place.
Tom:
Yeah.
Jarvis:
And so I'm wondering if by putting something there as a placeholder, it helps them... it makes it easier to reuse that strap or access it in some way?
Tom:
Placeholder is right. Yes, I'll give you that.
Jordan:
What's everybody picturing as the toy, just on instinct?
Elle:
Well, because you said rubber duck. Somebody said rubber duck.
Jarvis:
I did.
Elle:
I'm picturing a giant rubber duck.
Jordan:
(snickers) Is it of a notable size or is it kind of generic?
Jarvis:
That's a good question.
Jordan:
Little, like an action figure?
Tom:
It'd have to be kind of big enough to strap down but small enough to be easy to get out the way. So we're not talking anything large here. And there's no real practical purpose to this.
Jarvis:
There's no practical— 'Cause I was also thinking about rattling of, like, little pieces of metal, so holding something taut would be, like... maybe make it a smoother ride for the driver. But if there's no practical purpose...?
Elle:
Is it covering something that is unpleasant that they don't wanna see? So, like, there's a teddy bear there instead of something else. Like, maybe the truck driver's... picking up their daughter or something. When you first open it up, you don't want this scary thing. Instead, you have a pleasant teddy bear. I'm just trying to think of a non-practical purpose.
Jordan:
They've got a big box of ghosts. (laughs) I gotta cover this.
Tom:
Now, Jordan, you say the silly thing. You're getting closer with that.
Jordan:
(giggles) What?
Jarvis:
Every single time, he does say the silly thing.
Jordan:
Damn it.
Jarvis:
What did you even say? I tuned you out by default.
Elle:
Yeah, what did you say?
Jordan:
Is it he has a— he's holding a big box of ghosts and doesn't wanna have to look at it? Is it a Batman figure, so that if somebody tries to steal the truck, they go like, "Oh, my god. It's Batman. I need to get out of here"? I'm a— The criminals are a cowardly and superstitious lot, and he— they run away.
Tom:
W-oh! Now, again, you're very, very close, Jordan. You've said a key word in that one.
Jarvis:
Criminal.
Elle:
Is it a scary mask or, like, a mannequin to make— to scare away the thieves?
Tom:
It doesn't actually have to be a toy. It doesn't have to be anything specific. It just has to be some thing.
Jordan:
Is it crime related, criminal related?
Jarvis:
Is it deter— Is it meant to deter criminals?
Tom:
No, no.
Jarvis:
Okay, okay.
Elle:
Hmm.
Tom:
But, like... (sighs) you're so close, and Jordan, like, you've said a key word in there. When you were talking about ghosts and... the way people think.
Jordan:
I'm picturing the show Lateral and rotating it around in my head. I've got Tom, and I'm spinning him around really fast.
Tom:
(spins in place)
SFX:
(Jarvis and Jordan laugh)
Jordan:
Sorry. Sorry about that, Tom. I just needed a couple spins.
Tom:
(laughs)
Jordan:
And it doesn't matter what toy it is. That was...
Tom:
No, it doesn't even matter what thing it is. It just has to be a thing.
Jarvis:
I... (sighs) Maybe this is a irrelevant... anecdote, but I, in my storage unit, I sometimes put an action figure standing up that would be knocked down if the door was opened, so that I know that no one... But— Or if the door was, like, I could tell if it's been, if anyone's been there but me. It's like a peace of mind to know that no one has knocked over Krillin.
SFX:
(Tom and Jordan chuckle)
Tom:
That's still a practical purpose.
Jarvis:
That is still practical. So the fact— 'Practical' is such an interesting word, because you could argue so many things are practical. 'Cause if I'm doing it for some reason, that has to... in my mind, provide some value. You could argue this is practical.
Jordan:
Is it superstition?
Tom:
It is superstition. Yes.
Jarvis:
Ahhh.
Tom:
Yes, it is.
Elle:
Maybe, so is he warding off spirits? Is he warding off ghosts with this trinket or with this toy?
Tom:
What might be considered unlucky here by a lot of truckers?
Jarvis:
Unlucky?
Tom:
What is he avoiding by having a thing in the back?
Jordan:
Oh? Is this... I don't know that this is the case, but maybe it's a trucker superstition that you never wanna have nothing?
Tom:
Yes. It is considered unlucky by some truckers to be hauling air, and the reason— the reason I smiled when you said it, Jordan, is that that's also known as a 'ghost load'.
Jordan:
Oh.
SFX:
(both laughing)
Jarvis:
No comment.
Tom:
(winces) Oh!
Jordan:
Just—
Tom:
I hadn't— Oh, yeah. No.
SFX:
(Jordan and Elle laugh)
Jordan:
I didn't say anything.
Tom:
No, no you didn't. You didn't need to. So on flatbed trucks, drivers sometimes strap down a toy or some other token object so that the trailer is not technically empty, it's not symbolically empty. The logic is that if a truck isn't full of cargo, it will fill itself with bad luck instead.
Elle:
Wow.
Jordan:
Oh, Lord. That's a lot of bad luck too.
Jarvis:
I mean, that sounds practical to me. I wouldn't want my truck filling with bad luck.
SFX:
(Jordan and Tom laugh)
Tom:
Elle, we will head over to you for your question, please.
Elle:
This question has been sent in by Zach.
Zach bought a metal utensil for his kitchen. Two months later, he was seeing his doctor about near-daily anxiety attacks. What was it, and how did it cause this problem?
I'll read it again.
Zach bought a metal utensil for his kitchen. Two months later, he was seeing his doctor about near-daily anxiety attacks. What was it, and how did it cause this problem?
Jarvis:
I have a first thought... which is that... metal is important. Depending on how the metal is coated or not coated, it can leach off metal into whatever he's eating. So he might be consuming... a metal that's causing psychoses.
Tom:
I was thinking he just bought a cursed knife.
Jordan:
Yeah, you can't be doing that.
SFX:
(group giggling)
Jordan:
That's one of the biggest bad luck things ever.
Elle:
I will say, the material is not important.
Jarvis:
Mm.
Jordan:
He bought a metal utensil, or a kitchen utensil specifically?
Elle:
A metal utensil for his kitchen.
Jordan:
And then two months later,
Tom:
This feels like one of those videos, from... Have you seen Chubbyemu?
Jarvis:
Chubbyemu! (laughs) Yeah.
Tom:
There's— (chuckles)
Jordan:
I don't think so.
Tom:
This man bought a metal utensil. This is what happened to his pancreas.
Jarvis:
That's exactly what I was thinking of, 'cause it's like, a subject presents to the emergency room.
Tom:
Yeah.
Jarvis:
Okay.
Jordan:
Dexerto post, "Doctors hate him."
Tom:
With near-daily anxiety attacks.
Jarvis:
Yeah, exactly. That's exactly what I was imagining.
Jordan:
No, it's seeing a doctor about near-daily... But it taking two months is, feels like something too.
Tom:
Mm.
Jordan:
I mean, I guess you see it every day if it's in your kitchen.
Jarvis:
Yeah, so is it reflective, and then he sees himself, and he's like, "Whoa!"
Jordan:
Whoa, who is that?
Tom:
Or he doesn't see himself, and he's a vampire.
Elle:
And that's how he discovers it.
Jordan:
(guffaws) Going to the doctor. Doctor, I...
Tom:
Oh, yeah.
Jordan:
This is gonna sound insane, but...
SFX:
(both chuckling)
Jordan:
I got... I'll just say I got nibbled in Transylvania a few months ago.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Jordan:
So y— okay, he— I'm rotating him in my head.
Tom:
(laughs)
Jordan:
He, walking into his... What do you need for a kitchen? Kitchen stuff. Stuff to eat with. Stuff to cook with. Does it— Is there a— Does it say the country of origin for this one?
Elle:
It didn't, no.
Jordan:
Okay. 'Cause I was just thinking, could it be kettle related? But if it's American, there's— no, they're not. They don't have a kettle.
Tom:
They're not gonna have a kettle.
Jarvis:
Utensil tends to imply a fork, a spoon, chopsticks, what have you. But could this, to think laterally, this could be something else that's like a more uncommon utensil?
Elle:
It absolutely could, yes.
Jarvis:
Yeah.
Jordan:
Mm. Is it a common utensil, would you say?
Elle:
It— For a certain type of person, it would be a common utensil.
Tom:
(chuckles)
Jordan:
(snickers) A katana. (laughs) For a samurai, it's very common.
Jarvis:
It's like, again, too— thinking entirely too practically, it's a neti pot. He's not boiling the water, and he's getting the brain...
Tom:
Oh, no!
Jarvis:
Yeah, stuff.
Jordan:
He's just drinking the... (wheezes)
Jarvis:
No, there's the brain parasites that people get when they don't use distilled water with their neti pot. Sorry.
Jordan:
Oh yeah. And then they run the... Then they work in the administration.
Jarvis:
Mm.
Tom:
Okay... hear me out. It's changing something about what he's doing... that means he's ingesting something different. Like, we figured this out. There's some chemical either on the utensil reacting with the thing that he's cooking, that's... what make... But it's anxiety attacks. It's not like he's got heart palpitations, or it's not like it's something. It's just, he's...
Jarvis:
And the material didn't matter, but it is metallic, and that feels important.
Elle:
Yeah, it does specifically say a metal utensil for his kitchen.
Jarvis:
But it's not like he's consuming iron or something, and it's going into his brain.
Elle:
It's not anything leaching into him causing the problem.
Jordan:
I'm literally— I'm looking at my kitchen and being like, what's the scariest bit?
SFX:
(Tom and Jordan chuckle)
Tom:
The knife drawer. Surely the knife drawer.
Jordan:
Yeah.
Jarvis:
Okay.
Jordan:
I feel like the gas is most often... If you have a gas cooker, that's, like, the variable. And I'm wondering if this guy maybe has a propensity for... maybe is— has preexisting anxiety to some extent, but this thing... is inc— I don't know. It's something to do with the gas. You see how I haven't answered it at all, but I've given a little bit of—
SFX:
(others laughing)
Jarvis:
Well, what are... Well, I was just gonna say, what are the properties of metal?
Tom:
Well, no, it's not leaching off the utensil, right?
Jarvis:
Right.
Elle:
No.
Tom:
Elle said—
Elle:
It's not a poison situation from, like, a chemical in the...
Tom:
And the actual material doesn't matter. So it's got to be whatever he's using it with. It's some change to what he's cooking or making or preparing. And that stuff's making him anxious.
Elle:
Yes, his routine hasn't changed. He bought a new utensil, and that this— that's the thing that has changed.
Jarvis:
So it's like, coffee maker... Oh, no, sorry.
Tom:
No, no, Jarvis! That— Caffeine.
Elle:
Go... yeah, go on with that, Jarvis.
Jarvis:
My assumption is that... he's... he was, like... he's making coffee that's too strong by accident, and it's causing anxiety.
Tom:
Massively too strong. Has he bought an AeroPress or some fan— the fancy percolating filter thing?
Jordan:
Those little Cuban coffee... Yeah.
Tom:
Yeah.
Elle:
Less complex than that.
Jordan:
He bought a spoon and is eating the beans.
Elle:
Spoon is close.
Jarvis:
His... The metal utensil is, like, the coffee, like, when you get the beans, he got one that's too big.
Elle:
That's exactly right.
Jordan:
Big scoop!
Jarvis:
Big scoop.
Elle:
Yep, that's the answer. So, he didn't realize that the new metal utensil that he bought was 30% larger than his previous one. So he was taking in more caffeine every day, and was giving him anxiety attacks.
Jordan:
God, it takes so much for me to go to the doctor. Well, yeah, I'm thinking about— There would be— I would move. You know, something about this, if I had to ghost or something.
Jarvis:
I'm like, who figured this out? 'Cause, like, is the doctor also a detective?
SFX:
(guys laughing)
Elle:
Yeah, I wonder how... It says, Zach used a coffee scoop, a type of metal spoon, for measuring out the coffee powder needed for his morning brew. However, he did not realize that the new coffee scoop was 30% larger than his previous one. He gave himself a caffeine overdose daily for about two months.
Jordan:
Oh, my word.
Elle:
This is a true story. Written by Zach, who sent in the question.
Jordan:
Oh, really? Well, congratulations on finding the solution, Zach.
Jarvis:
Wow, you were within a 30% range of daily anxiety attacks.
SFX:
(group snickering)
Jarvis:
You were riding the line of your caffeine tolerance so close.
Jordan:
Yeah, I think maybe you gotta stop drinking coffee.
SFX:
(Tom and Jordan laugh)
Tom:
Thank you to Bob Weisz for this question.
In 1709, playwright and innovator John Dennis attended a performance of Macbeth at the Theatre Royal, Drury Lane. Something in the opening scene made him angry about a metal sheet. What everyday phrase arose from this?
I'll say that again.
In 1709, playwright and innovator John Dennis attended a performance of Macbeth at the Theatre Royal, Drury Lane. Something in the opening scene made him angry about a metal sheet. What everyday phrase arose from this?
Elle:
So the opening scene is, like, the three witches, right? And they come in, they're like...
Tom:
Yes.
Elle:
"By the pricking of my thumbs," or maybe that's later, but...
Jordan:
"I'm gonna get ya."
SFX:
(group laughing)
Elle:
They're talking and... They're setting the scene. "What's fair is foul and foul is fair."
Tom:
"Hubble, bubble, boil and trouble."
Elle:
Yeah.
Jordan:
(snickers) "Kazaam."
Elle:
"Hover through the fog and filthy air."
Jordan:
And then there's the big spe— the, you know, Lady Macbeth's like, "Ah, me hand."
SFX:
(group laughing)
Tom:
"Out, damned spot" comes much later in Macbeth.
Elle:
"Multitudinous seas incarnadine."
Tom:
(cackles)
Jarvis:
Metal sheet.
Tom:
This is where I reveal that I did, in fact, study Macbeth in high school, and I suspect, Elle, you might have?
Elle:
Maybe, maybe a bit, yeah, in college.
Jordan:
I played, now in retrospect was perhaps racistly casted as a, I think previously unincluded character who was just a miscellaneous, like, foreign soldier.
Elle:
Oh, okay.
Jarvis:
Yeah, I was like, I could hit you guys with some Hamlet soliloquies, but not as useful on Macbeth.
Jordan:
Macbeth wa—
Tom:
That is a shame.
Jordan:
A big metal sheet. Did they even have metal yet?
Tom:
In 1709, yes.
Jordan:
Yeah.
Tom:
Yes, absolutely.
Jordan:
I mean, they didn't even have computer.
Elle:
Does it specifically relate to the content of what's going on in the first scene? So, like, the three witches... talking about the fog and the filthy air, and the... duplicity to come? Like would it be a prop on the stage, I'm wondering? Like what would its function be in that scene?
Jarvis:
I'm imagining, yeah, the metal sheet is a prop... like thing. Potentially for sound or... 'Cause I'm thinking of what happens when you hit a metal sheet.
Elle:
Thunder, right?
Jarvis:
Yeah, exactly.
Tom:
Thunder. Absolutely.
Jarvis:
Oooh. Yeah.
Jordan:
And did you say— did you phrase it as "attempted to", and then sort of—
Tom:
Oh no, he attended Macbeth, and something in that opening scene made him angry about a metal sheet. We're looking for an everyday phrase in the end, but you have identified that this is the sound of thunder.
Elle:
Okay.
Jarvis:
Made him angry?
Tom:
Yep, and the— We quoted so much of that opening scene and not the opening lines. "When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"
Elle:
Okay, so somebody hits a metal sheet, and that's— it's— it is an annoying sound to this man. It's an annoying sound or visual.
Jarvis:
Yeah. And I'm like—
Tom:
Yeah.
Jordan:
He's inside the sheet.
Jarvis:
Is it...
SFX:
(Jordan and Tom snicker)
Jarvis:
Wait, did you say phrase or word?
Tom:
Everyday phrase.
Jarvis:
Everyday phrase.
Jordan:
And we would have all used this phrase?
Tom:
Oh, you have heard this phrase. You may have used it, but you've definitely heard it.
Elle:
So what phrases do we know about thunder?
Jordan:
What phrases do we know? Let's say every word.
Jarvis:
I was like, the first thing was like, "It's raining cats and dogs." That's, you know.
Tom:
(chuckles)
Jordan:
(cracks up) It's raining...
Elle:
Crack of thunder.
Jarvis:
Someone's... What is it? Like thunder. It's like a... God is burping or belching or I don't know.
Tom:
(laughs)
Jordan:
God's whacking a big metal sheet.
Tom:
I'm gonna remind you that John Dennis was a playwright and innovator.
Jarvis:
So it made him angry 'cause he didn't think of it himself maybe.
Tom:
Oh...
Jarvis:
Or... Or he did think of it himself, and they're not using it correctly.
Tom:
(laughs)
Jordan:
Was it his idea that was stolen?
Elle:
Or did he think of a better way to make this sound?
Tom:
He had come up with the idea of wobbling a thin metal sheet to create the sound of thunder, absolutely right. And Jordan, you even used the right word there.
Jarvis:
He felt his idea was stolen? Is that what you said?
Tom:
Yep. So what did he complain about?
Jarvis:
Intellectual property.
SFX:
(group chuckling)
Jordan:
Why you— Why have you done that? Give us that back now.
Jarvis:
Give that back.
Jordan:
(wheezes)
Elle:
You stole my idea.
Tom:
You've stolen his what?
Elle:
Thunder. You stole my thunder.
Tom:
Yes!
Jarvis:
Stole my thunder!
Jordan:
Ohhh, that's awesome!
Jarvis:
Wow!
Tom:
Yes!
Jordan:
(giggles)
Tom:
John Dennis wrote an earlier play called Appius and Virginia. He devised a stage effect using a thin metal sheet that you would shake to create thunder. Dennis's play was unsuccessful. It was replaced at Drury Lane by a production of Macbeth. He is in the audience for this. The first words go out. Someone rattles a metal sheet, and he shouts out, "They will not let my play run, and yet they steal my thunder!"
Jarvis:
Wow.
Jordan:
Very Shakespearean line.
Elle:
Wow.
Jarvis:
To get on the level of hater to attend the play that replaced you.
Jordan:
(laughs)
Jarvis:
I would never. I would just, like, go— move on with my life. Avoid.
Jordan:
Oh, no, dude, I would, but it's after the show, waiting 'til everyone's talking.
Elle:
Yeah, a mean little note.
Jordan:
"They stole my— That was my thunder."
Tom:
(laughs)
Jordan:
"Don't tell Billy, but that was my thunder."
Tom:
Jarvis, we will head to you for the question, please.
Jarvis:
Alright. This question has been sent in by Luka Daniels. The Factor HANZO track bike originally retailed for nearly $100,000, even though most of Factor's other bikes retail for $10–15,000. Shortly after August 2024, the price dropped significantly. Why? The Factor HANZO track bike originally retailed for nearly $100,000, even though most of Factor's other bikes retail for $10–15,000. Shortly after August 2024, the price dropped significantly. Why?
Jordan:
I've been a bicycle boy a pretty good portion of my life.
Tom:
(chuckles)
Jordan:
But I don't... A track bike I'm not sure I could distinguish. Does anybody know that term better than me? Track bike?
Jarvis:
Is that, like, the type of bikes that the... like, people in big races use?
Jordan:
Something, right, yeah. Or, like, yeah, like something—
Jarvis:
Like the Tour de France and stuff?
Jordan:
That would make sense. Track bike.
Elle:
So, like, kind of a road bike.
Tom:
I would assume that a track bike, particularly given those prices, is specifically meant for, like, on a racing track, like a velodrome or something like that.
Elle:
Okay.
Tom:
(cracks up) I'm connecting this to swimsuits, and I promise that will make sense in a minute.
Jordan:
(snickers) You're always doing this.
Tom:
There's a big controversy, or at least there was a couple years ago, about what swimsuits are allowed in competition. Because people keep inventing new, really expensive fabric for swimsuits that reduces drag. And, like, the athletes for the Olympics from rich countries can afford to pay some company 100 grand for a swimsuit that'll only last three days. And so they get an advantage. So I'm wondering if there's some similar thing. 'Cause those suits got disqualified, and obviously lost their value.
Jordan:
That is the pa— That is the way it went. They just... said no and...
Tom:
Yeah. They just said no. They limited fabrics and limited drag factors, I think. And I'm wondering if this track bike gave some extremely expensive advantage, and in August 2024, the Cycling Federation just went no, and they all lost their value.
Jordan:
Hm.
Elle:
Hm.
Jarvis:
I mean... You're very... A lot of what you said is on the right track, no pun intended.
Jordan:
It's comp— It's a competition related thing?
Jarvis:
Yeah.
Tom:
It's gotta be for that price, 'cause like, $100,000 for a bike.
Elle:
And could it be, like, so you said this happened, the value dropped in August 2024. Could there have been some shortage of material that this bike was using to have that advantage, and then that material was no longer available?
Tom:
I mean, I'm guessing they're all carbon fibre and just...
Jarvis:
Mhm. It does not have to do with the price of materials.
Jordan:
Was August 2024 the... I don't wanna say...
Tom:
That's a Summer Olympic year.
Jordan:
It's the not-snow Olympics.
Tom:
Yeah.
Jordan:
It's the no-snow Olympics.
Tom:
Yeah. It's the Summer Olympics. August 2024... was... can't remember the place or... I can remember nothing about those Olympics other than—
Jordan:
It's probably a big arena hosting something.
Tom:
Yeah, so there'll have been a velodrome somewhere.
Jarvis:
There would've been a velodrome somewhere, and... yeah, that, I mean, that's a reas— very reasonable and correct thought line.
Jordan:
So it's probab— It's definitely or most likely Olympics related. And the— it dropped. Do they just sell the competition bikes for a lower cost after the Olympics?
Tom:
Or maybe they're just exclusively for the Olympic team, and, like, the US Olympic team gets a sponsorship, and they pay all the costs of R&D and everything like that. But once the Olympics is over, the price drops, and they go on sale to the general public.
Jarvis:
They could've just refused to give this bike to other people, but instead they sold it for this very expensive price. Why might they do such a thing?
Jordan:
Oh, man.
Tom:
(chuckles)
Jordan:
I guess, so, the pins we have in place: It's something Olympics adjacent. I don't know that brand, but I'm guessing it's just because it is a competitive brand, and... you know, there's a lot of bikes. They could have just... Was it banned? Is that— Was it the same path as the swimsuit?
Jarvis:
It wasn't banned, but that's important, because if it were banned, it wouldn't be able to be used, right?
Tom:
Let's say this is the US team's bike.
Jarvis:
Mhm.
Tom:
They know the Canadian team can't afford that much. Like, maybe the Olympic rules are you have to use a commercially available bike.
Jarvis:
Oh!
Jordan:
That's it.
Tom:
And so Factor are just like, "Yeah, absolutely. Any team can buy this bike. We're just pricing it at this much.
Jarvis:
And we know the Americans can afford it." That is exactly what it is, but there's been a lot of American slander here, and this was actually Australia's fault, okay?
Tom:
Oh, wow!
Jarvis:
So—
Jordan:
We can all agree! (laughs)
Tom:
Somehow that feels better!
Jordan:
Yeah!
Jarvis:
(Aussie accent) So, for the Paris 2024 cycle, Australia partnered with Factor Bikes. (normal voice) So for the Olympic track cycling, equipment must comply with the rules set by UCI – the Union Cycliste Internationale. Among these regulations is a requirement that competition equipment must be commercially available, meaning it cannot be purely a secret prototype used only by a national team. For the Paris 2024 cycle, Australia partnered with Factor Bikes to develop the HANZO track bike, which was listed for sale at $97,979. By offering the bike for public purchase, even at an extremely high price, the team satisfied the rule that the equipment must be commercially available. In practice, the price was so high that very few of Australia's competitors were likely to buy one.
Elle:
Clever and shady of them.
Jarvis:
I was gonna say, yeah, it feels shady. There's a lot of shady stuff like this that happens in sports, though.
Jordan:
It feels American, honestly.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Elle:
Yeah, it does.
Jordan:
They could've took our steam.
Tom:
Our next question has been sent in by Finn. Thank you very much. Leah goes through a labyrinth into the dry side, then follows an orange-red light to the wet side. Where is she? I'll say that again. Leah goes through a labyrinth into the dry side, then follows an orange-red light to the wet side. Where is she?
Elle:
Ooh, I love this one.
Jordan:
I've always— I really do love the f—- on the format of this show, how, like, it's first name basis with all of the subjects in the questions. Because it— what always happens is you'll say a name, and if it is someone I've ever known from anywhere, it instantly gets placed in my mind. I'm thinking now of a Leah that I knew from... Iceland retail store management. (laughs) So she's in it.
Elle:
Seems like this labyrinth could be in Iceland.
Tom:
The country Iceland or the chain Iceland?
Jordan:
The chain Iceland.
Tom:
Okay. There's a chain of frozen food stores called Iceland.
Jordan:
It's— You can go there. You can buy... very unpleasant flavourless Schnapps from me, age 16, illegally selling it to you and not telling my manager. You can't do that anymore, and you never could actually. I take it back.
Elle:
(laughs)
Tom:
And there is a branch of Iceland in Iceland.
Jordan:
Really? I wonder how long that took.
Jarvis:
'Labyrinth' makes me think of a fancy way of avoiding the word 'maze'.
Tom:
(chuckles)
Jordan:
(guffaws) Yeah, upmarket maze.
Jarvis:
Yeah, but...
Tom:
There is meant to be a difference technically. A maze has alternate routes and choices you can make. A labyrinth is just a long path winding that you must follow.
Jordan:
That's such a Tom thing to know. (wheezes)
Tom:
(laughs)
Jordan:
That's such an utterly Tom— You know why? 'Cause it's game show. It's game show oriented. You're distinguishing between, like, Crystal Palace and the... (laughs) The Crystal Maze, Crystal— yeah.
Tom:
Yeah. The Crystal Maze and the Crystal Labyrinth, yeah.
Jordan:
What's... is this... fiction? Is this related to fiction?
Tom:
This is real.
Elle:
And can we ask, is the labyrinth metaphorical, or is it truly a labyrinth?
Tom:
It is truly a labyrinth, both in reality and by the (laughs) very pedantic definition. It is also not much of a challenge.
Elle:
Okay. Hm.
Jordan:
Oh?
Jarvis:
Not much of a challenge.
Jordan:
If I do say so myself. (giggles)
Jarvis:
A labyrinth.
Jordan:
I can do this easily.
Jarvis:
'Cause I was thinking about like, it almost sounds like a science experiment about, like, animals or bugs or something that follow... He... or...
Jordan:
Is Leah a rat?
Tom:
I'd go with science ex— not an experiment, but science, yeah.
Jarvis:
Oh, wait. Is this about bees? In a honeycomb type situation?
Tom:
(laughs)
Jarvis:
That's what I was imagining. Beehive, I mean.
Tom:
It's not, no.
Jarvis:
Dang.
Elle:
So you mentioned the orange light.
Tom:
Mhm.
Elle:
Which could be any number of things. In a controlled environment you'd think...
Jarvis:
Yeah.
Elle:
Some sort of LED, but what if it's outside? Could it be the sun?
Jarvis:
Right. The sun is like what I... I'm like, is this like mole rats or like some sort of like burrowing animal that also likes to be wet?
Elle:
Or like, are we coaxing a creature that lives in a wet environment out into a dry environment through the use of some sort of light stimulus?
Jarvis:
But the light leads them to the wet, I think. Is that right?
Tom:
The labyrinth gets them to the dry side.
Jarvis:
Oh, it gets them to the dry side.
Tom:
And then the orange-red light will guide them to the wet side.
Jarvis:
Okay, yeah, that's what I meant. Yeah, yeah. The orange-red light—
Jordan:
Gets them to the dry side
Jarvis:
and then guides them to the...
Jordan:
(chuckles) Okay, no, I'm— Oh my god. Sorry. You know sometimes...
Tom:
(laughs) Yep.
Jordan:
A thought will get a little too far into the— It'll get out of the brain stem and get to the frontal lobe, and then you're like, "No, no, no, you shouldn't be here. This is too stupid an idea." I truly almost just said like... "Maybe she's a fish."
SFX:
(Tom and Elle laugh)
Jordan:
I remember, like, "What's wet? The ocean. Maybe she's a fish."
Tom:
I will clear up that Leah is human.
Jarvis:
Okay, yeah, that was gonna be my question.
Tom:
Yep.
Jordan:
Maybe she's a mermaid.
Tom:
I would focus on the orange-red light.
Jordan:
Orange-red, huh?
Jarvis:
I mean, orange-red just makes me think of the sun.
Jordan:
Yeah, the sun is really bright. Yeah, the sun is really bright.
Tom:
Only at sunrise and sunset, though. That's white light most of the time.
Jarvis:
Yeah. I'm just thinking, maybe I'm thinking of the surface of the sun. I'm thinking of a red, flaming inferno.
Tom:
The sun is actually what Leah is very much trying to avoid here. The sun would be very bad for this.
Jordan:
Is it... Hmm. It's not the bathroom, is it? Like, she's going to the bathroom and through a series of hallways, and then...
Tom:
(laughs)
Jordan:
taking— following the signs home?
Tom:
So, technically no, but 'bath' is a key word in what she's doing. Not for her, but there is definitely a bath of stuff involved. And again, we're kinda thinking science adjacent here.
Jordan:
Take— It takes place in the West Midlands, It's in Bath. (wheezes) It's a Bath-based story.
Tom:
Where might you use an orange-red light? What might you see that for?
Jordan:
Photographs? Darkroom?
Tom:
Jordan, keep going.
Jarvis:
Oh.
Jordan:
It's— There's the chemicals that you're treating the... raw negatives with.
Tom:
Mhm. Yep, that's the bath, and that's also the science I'm talking about. You're right that this is a photographic darkroom.
Jordan:
Photographic zone, but a labyrinth, you say. (snickers)
Tom:
Jordan, you've kind of identified the big answer to the question here. She's in a photographic darkroom.
Jordan:
Right.
Tom:
That's what the orange-red light is there for. That's why you have a dry side and a wet side. So I think I'm just gonna ask you, why the labyrinth? Doesn't have to be a labyrinth. There could be other ways of doing this.
Jarvis:
Is it— I was like, is it just a tunnel or... like a simple labyrinth?
Tom:
To do what, Jarvis?
Jordan:
Hmm?
Jarvis:
Dur— hmm. To have a single source of light in order to cut off all the light for the darkroom?
Tom:
Yes! The labyrinth is the sequence of turns and black-painted walls that you go around to enter some photographic darkrooms. You could have like an airlock door. You could have other ways of doing it, but the cheapest and least likely to fail, is you paint some walls black, you have a very short little labyrinth to walk around, and then you're on the dry side of your darkroom with the orange-red safe light on the wet.
Jarvis:
That makes sense.
Jordan:
Makes so much sense. This explains why I've always bumped my shoulder on my way into the photography room at Cirencester College, 2008.
Tom:
(laughs heartily)
Elle:
(snickers)
Jordan:
Check out the school today.
Tom:
Jordan, I think it's your question next.
Jordan:
Oh, cool. (laughs) I saw— I just remembered this one. There's key words that are exciting.
Tom:
(laughs)
Jordan:
(snickers)
This question has been sent in by Elliot Dickman.
When filming Fast & Furious: Tokyo Drift in Shibuya, Tokyo, the production hired a stand-in actor who became important after the shots had already been completed. What was their role?
I'll read that again.
When filming Fast & Furious: Tokyo Drift in Shibuya, Tokyo, the production hired a stand-in actor who became important after the shots had already been completed. What was their role?
Jarvis:
My first thought was, like, compositing of some... like, if they were, like, a stunt driver or something, and having them in a stand-in role made it easier to composite them into... or take them out, like remove them from...
Tom:
I think when it says became important later, that's nothing to do with the movie. It's just that the actor they happened to hire as a stand-in turned out to be Ryan Gosling or someone.
Jarvis:
Hmm, hmm.
SFX:
(Elle and Jordan laugh)
Tom:
Who just happened to be in Shibuya at the time. "Yeah, can you act?" "Yeah, good enough. In you get."
Jordan:
(laughs) He's— I mean, he's a talent. He could play a Japanese salaryman, I'm sure.
Elle:
Or it's, like, an actor who had a small, you know, extra role, like a role as an extra, but then because he was around the person, he heard all the lines happening throughout, and then when the main actor got sick, he had to step in 'cause he knew the whole part.
Jordan:
I'll say the stand-in's... The stand-in was not to replace any of the real actors on set.
Tom:
Hmm.
Jordan:
And it was not a... It did not require any talent.
Tom:
'Cause movies use stand-ins for, like, the... (cracks up) so the actor does not have to spend two hours of setup while they rig the lights, getting everything in the right place, and they can be in their trailer preparing for whatever emotional scene is about to happen and not have to go straight from "I am bored and my back hurts" to "I need to cry now."
Jarvis:
Right. Right, right, right.
Tom:
But it's not that type of stand-in, you said.
Jordan:
It's not that type of stand-in, and it's a stand-in that is... you would definitely not find it on a typical crew. It is for... the...
Tom:
Fast & Furious: Tokyo Drift.
Jordan:
Tokyo Drift, and the location of Shibuya is an important part of why you'd need this person.
Elle:
So Shibuya, very busy, full of a lot of people.
Jarvis:
Yes. Yeah.
Tom:
Lot of people. Lot of stuff going on there. Where— Did they... find a... Was— Is Vin Diesel in that Fast & Furious? I don't— Did they find someone who looked like Vin Diesel to distract the fans to get them out of the way?
Jordan:
I mean, this isn't included in the note, but if you'd like an extended explanation of the plot and features of Fast & Furious: Tokyo Drift, which some people misnominally relate to as Fast & Furious 3.
Tom:
You look like someone who'd know about it.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Jarvis:
And you'd be correct.
Jordan:
Yeah, I think there's a tattoo cutoff point where you suddenly become a fan of it.
Tom:
(laughs)
Jordan:
If you get five or more. It was not a stand-in for an actor.
Tom:
Okay. 'Cause I was thinking, like, they'd have someone who looked like Vin Diesel pop up in the distance, and everyone would run that way, and they're like, "Cool, we don't have to deal with the fans anymore."
Jordan:
I see.
Jarvis:
I was just thinking about, I just don't know why this person would need to be on camera, but I was thinking about... if there's people who are not actual extras in the movie, but because they couldn't shut down all of Shibuya for the filming, they would need someone to pretend to be people, like dress like other people who were captured on film... in their B-roll and stuff.
Jordan:
You have captured so much of it. I will say, this person's role, it's not an on-camera talent, but it is...
Jarvis:
Oh, they weren't on camera?
Jordan:
Stand-in, what— Everything you were saying about needing that person, and it being related to the... It's off-camera talent. It's an essential person involved in the production. But because of where they are filming and what they are doing, this was a unique role that they really needed to do for this.
Jarvis:
I feel like it has to do with monitoring all of the people in Shibuya for like continuity reasons and stuff like that.
Jordan:
It's less normal than that.
Jarvis:
Oh, okay.
Jordan:
It's a very... I would go so far as to say this might be the only time this has ever been done on set. and it is a little bit, I'll say... it's a little bit illegal.
Jarvis:
(snickers)
Tom:
(laughs)
Elle:
Does it have to do with the crossing itself? The safety of the crossing? Like how many people are moving?
Jordan:
Yeah, it has to do with... the... not being permitted to use the crossing because of the number of people and the... yeah. It's not like a place that you're typically allowed to shoot.
Tom:
Did they fake an incident or fake something to keep people off the crossing? Are they drifting 'round the crossing when they don't have permission to drift 'round the crossing, and this guy is there just holding crowds back?
Jordan:
They— So this— It is a scene where, if I'm remembering my lore correctly, it is a scene with, yeah, the driving and the hazards. It is, it's a potentially hazardous scene. This person's job, it is... the... they're not doing anything important while the cameras are on. They're— What is really important is the consequences of what they are doing. Their role is to deal with the consequences of the production.
Jarvis:
I was imagining they, like, pretend to be someone in an official role that is not actually...
Jordan:
(points silently)
Jarvis:
Like, they're dressed like a construction worker or something like that.
Jordan:
They are standing in for someone on the crew, but it is— it's none of the people featured on camera.
Tom:
Is there a fake director to be arrested in place of the actual director?
Jordan:
That is exactly correct.
Justin Lin really wanted to film in the actual Shibuya. And... it's the most crowded area of Tokyo, as you say. However, it's— he found it extremely difficult to get permission to do so. Famously difficult to get any permits to shoot in, like, real populated areas of Japan. So this is, you know, ultra, ultra extreme version of that. (snickers) This sounds so cool.
The police shut down the production after all the shots had been completed, and a man stepped up and told the police, (laughs) "I'm the director. I'm Justin Lin." And so was arrested in place of Justin Lin and spent the night in jail instead of him.
Elle:
Wow.
Tom:
Wow!
Jarvis:
That's funny.
Jordan:
Which is one of those... I can't think of a better solution, but it feels like...
SFX:
(Jordan and Tom laugh)
Jordan:
But I don't know. There's gotta be something else.
Elle:
I hope that guy was paid well.
Tom:
Yep.
Jordan:
I hope that he got out of jail.
Tom:
One last thing, then.
Thank you to Nick for sending in the final question.
Nick asks someone to choose any name, and he will sing a popular song with that name in the lyrics. How?
Jordan:
Nick sent— The same Nick sent it in?
Tom:
Yep, this is a personal anecdote from Nick.
Jordan:
Prove it.
SFX:
(group snickering)
Jordan:
Prove it, Nick.
Tom:
Nick would be able to prove it. I could prove it.
Jarvis:
I mean, is it the birthday song?
Tom:
Yes, it is, Jarvis! This is a bar bet.
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Tom:
The question sender, Nick, says, "I remember someone doing this at a wedding in order to win a drink at the bar." The unlucky victim chose the name Rodney, and a chorus of 'Happy Birthday, Dear Rodney' to an imaginary Rodney breaks out, everyone's very confused, and the guy Nick sees wins his drink.
Jordan:
That's great.
Tom:
Thank you very much to all of you for playing. Where can people find you? What's going on in your lives?
We will start with Elle.
Elle:
I am releasing a full-length album called Curiosities. Every song is about a different unique concept. There's a UFO landing, there's a sea shanty, a murder ballad, a fairy tale, all kinds of things under this one... you know, title – Curiosities. And so that's what has been taking up the majority of my time.
Also have a science fiction book club. All are welcome to join. That's about it.
Tom:
Where can people find you?
Elle:
You can find me at @ElleCordova, YouTube, Instagram, all of the social places.
Tom:
Jarvis.
Jarvis:
I'm not doing anything ever really, and you— but if you wanna follow that, you can find me at @jarvis on Instagram and Twitter and YouTube.
Tom:
And Jordan.
Jordan:
You can also find us over on the Sad Boyz YouTube channel. That's, the first S is an S, but the last S is a Z.
Tom:
And if you wanna know more about this show, you can do that at lateralcast.com, where you can also join the Lateral Producer's Club and send in your own ideas for questions. We are at @lateralcast basically everywhere, and there are regular full video episodes on Spotify.
Thank you very much to Jordan Adika.
Jordan:
Thanks for having me.
Tom:
Jarvis Johnson.
Jarvis:
Still trapped.
Tom:
Elle Cordova.
Elle:
Hey.
Tom:
I've been Tom Scott, and that's been Lateral.
Episode Credits
| HOST | Tom Scott |
| QUESTION PRODUCER | David Bodycombe |
| EDITED BY | Julie Hassett at The Podcast Studios, Dublin |
| MUSIC | Karl-Ola Kjellholm ('Private Detective'/'Agrumes', courtesy of epidemicsound.com) |
| ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS | Nick, Zach, Luka Daniels, Elliot Dickman, Darius, Bob Weisz, Finn |
| FORMAT | Pad 26 Limited/Labyrinth Games Ltd |
| EXECUTIVE PRODUCERS | David Bodycombe and Tom Scott |