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Episode 211: A bucket of ears
23rd October, 2026 • Ria Lina, Dani Siller and Bill Sunderland face questions about lost links, couple communication and Donald Duck.
Transcription by Caption+
Tom:
What links Rebecca, The Maltese Falcon, and "The Monster Mash"? The answer to that at the end of the show. My name's Tom Scott, and this is Lateral. Before we begin today's episode of Lateral, a brief health and safety announcement. Following a recent risk assessment, we are required to inform listeners that this program involves several controlled activities, including speculation, hypothesis testing, and the handling of potentially unstable ideas. All participants today have completed the appropriate induction and have been issued the required personal protective equipment, including curiosity, scepticism, and the ability to say, "That might be nonsense". Today's authorised personnel are: starting with our... I think our longest running players, our longest running returning players certainly, from episode one and so many others of Lateral, and from Escape This Podcast, Solve This Murder, so many other things, Dani Siller. Welcome back to the show.
Dani:
Take that, Let's Learn Everything!
Tom:
(laughs heartily) You know what? I've never totaled up episode appearances but I appreciate you...
Dani:
I'm counting it as a victory.
Tom:
calling out other guests.
Bill:
They know what they've done.
Tom:
Yeah. Yeah, they do. How's things, Dani?
Dani:
It's wonderful, and you know what? Because I know that we're recording this a decent amount in advance, I'm going to assume that by now it's even better.
Tom:
Oh, yes, absolutely go for the optimism there. The, the single best audio escape room podcast on the internet.
Dani:
I'm not allowed to legally say the words Nobel Prize yet, but
Tom:
Also joining us, the other h- no, I c- I keep always s- I always say the other half. Doesn't feel right. Feels lesser.
Bill:
I am the other half.
Tom:
Please welcome the other half of Escape This Podcast, Bill Sunderland.
Bill:
yes, hello. Look, I w- I will happily take the other half with a lesser disparaging tone for Escape This Podcast. Lesser for Solve This Murder. I, I, I do a lot of the writing of the original murder mysteries- Mhm for Solve This Murder. and, they're, they're both a lot of fun.
Dani:
Yeah, Bill, Bill does the hard work.
Tom:
I notice a difference between writing for those 'cause, 'cause the Escape Room Podcast is an escape room. You solve a clue, and it unlocks new things. Mm. The murder mystery podcast is, is much more freeform.
Bill:
It's interesting. Oh, yeah. You... The, the, it's... The, the notes for the murder mysteries are a very clear breakdown of a series of true facts, but not so much a structure of plot. The plot structure has to come out organically as they investigate, and so you have to try and find places within each episode to hit a beat to go, "Ooh, that's nice. This feels like we've hit a moment. Let's end the episode here." but generally, I'm armed with just a whole series of pages of true things that m- that are-
Dani:
And some very thorough character breakdowns. Yeah,
Bill:
yeah, exactly. And so that when Dani goes, "Well, I'm just gonna, disguise myself as a police officer, break into a bank, and see if anybody passing by- says anything interesting about this murder"- Not unlikely ... I have to go, "Well, I know what is interesting. I guess I'll just get one of these bank people to say it, I guess."
Tom:
Well, good luck to you both in writing those notes and on the show today. The third player today, comedian from Mock the Week, from her own Riabellion tour, from many other things, Ria Lina, welcome back to the show.
Ria:
Thank you so much. I'm so pleased to be back.
Tom:
How would you describe your comedy? I didn't ask that last time.
Ria:
How would I describe... Funny? I mean- Is that allowed?
Bill:
That's good.
Ria:
Is that- Is that too obvious? I think, oh, I think people call me... I think the words are things like intellectual, sharp, eh, little bit edgy.
Tom:
Mhm. You did manage to get through the Lateral live show, I think without, grievously offending anyone in the audience.
Ria:
I hope so, but I think there were moments where I did say stuff and go, "Whoop. This is not a comedy show." "This is not, this is not a
Tom:
comedy show." Well, it- it's sort of... We- we are listed under comedy on, like, the categorization of podcasts.
Ria:
'Cause this show is joyous. If you're not laughing- Mm... listening to this show and having fun, then y- then- Yeah, it's not comedy for you. But it is comedy. This is definitely comedy. Yeah. I love it.
Tom:
Well, good luck to you and to our audience today. It is time to don our safety glasses as we look at question one. Thank you to Riley Wells for this question. While visiting a federal building in Denver, Riley helped himself to approximately $165 worth of untraceable currency. Staff watched and didn't mind. Why? I'll say that again. While visiting a federal building in Denver, Riley helped himself to approximately $165 worth of untraceable currency. Staff watched and didn't mind. Why?
Ria:
Was it out of print? You know, you know when they collect the old bills, that no longer are being used?
Dani:
Aren't those even more valuable sometimes?
Ria:
Yeah, but it's untraceable. It doesn't have serial numbers on it, so it's wrong anyway, so you can't have it out in circulation.
Dani:
I assumed someone might care, but... it's entirely possible.
Bill:
They got rid of the penny recently, didn't they? Did he take a big bucket of pennies?
Dani:
That's a lot of pennies.
Ria:
Did they get rid of the American penny?
Bill:
Or at least they're planning to?
Dani:
They talked about it.
Bill:
Tom, you're a penny guy.
SFX:
(Tom and Ria laugh)
Tom:
Yeah, I look like someone who would know about pennies, and unfortunately, yes, I do. In... (sighs) In the same way that the current US administration handles a lot of things, they have not decided to get rid of the penny, or decided anything. They've just decided to stop making new ones. There's no rule about how the world's gonna deal with that. No particular law about how things must be rounded. There's just no new pennies. That's it.
Bill:
Okay.
Dani:
Solid, solid.
Tom:
Good luck, everybody. They're not collecting the old ones. They're just not making any more.
Dani:
I mean, look, my mind goes in one direction every time. I assumed it was chocolate coins.
Tom:
(laughs)
Bill:
Ooh.
Dani:
But again, if someone took $165 worth of my chocolate coins, I'd be furious. I would not stand by.
Ria:
That's so true.
Tom:
Ria, you've got quite a bit of this question.
Dani:
Oh?
Tom:
You were right about the currency not being useful anymore, but that would still have serial numbers on it. Like, you might still theoretically be able to trace that.
Bill:
Hmm. So what's an untraceable type of— Was it explicitly like, it's currency? It's—
Tom:
Currency.
Ria:
Coinage. Coinage doesn't have—
Bill:
Yeah, coins don't have serial numbers.
Ria:
And that would explain why it's so low. $165 is a lot of coins, but it's not a lot of bills.
Bill:
But also why it doesn't necessarily explain why they wouldn't care.
Tom:
Right.
Bill:
Like, if anybody can walk in... Does it matter maybe rather than what they're taking, does it matter more about—
Tom:
I've actually walked in and done this.
Bill:
Ooh. You've done it too?
Tom:
I've done it too.
Bill:
Oh, no. Tom's a thief, and we're on his show. We're implicated.
Dani:
What do we know about Denver federal buildings?
Ria:
Well, it's Colorado, and in Colorado I do believe that pot is legal, so maybe they were all high.
Dani:
Yep, yep.
Tom:
(laughs)
Bill:
They were special weed dollars.
Tom:
We are talking about a different kind of green stuff here.
Ria:
(cackles)
Bill:
Whoa-ho-ho!
Ria:
Wahey.
Bill:
Alright. Now that's comedy everybody can enjoy.
SFX:
(Tom and Bill laugh)
Dani:
That does make it sound like we're talking about notes again though, right?
Tom:
It is, yes. And you're right, it's the Denver Mint.
Dani:
Where ideally they should care about people walking in and taking money.
Tom:
They should, yes.
Bill:
But they don't because the person made the money themselves. And they pay their own wage with the money that they already made.
Ria:
And you've— So wait, Tom. You've gone to the federal building in Denver.
Tom:
Yep, to the Denver Mint.
Ria:
And you've helped yourself to some untraceable currency?
Tom:
I have, about $165 worth.
Dani:
Did you have to put in $165 to acquire that?
Tom:
Nope.
Dani:
Interesting.
Ria:
Is it stamps?
Bill:
Ooh, it's not dollars for dollars. (gasps)
Ria:
Are they stamps?
Tom:
It is bills. You were right with that very early on.
Ria:
Oh, I see. Okay.
Bill:
Presum— Okay, could you take these bills, right? If we say they're $165 worth of bills. If I wanted to go and buy something that was $165, could I take these bills to a shop and buy that thing?
Dani:
That seems unlikely.
Tom:
It is unlikely, yes.
Ria:
They don't have $50 bills, do they?
Tom:
They do. They do.
Ria:
That have— They do? 50, 100, 'cause 165.
Bill:
They don't have 50 cent coins.
Ria:
'Cause 165, 'cause they have 100, 150. That's 100, a 50, a 10, and a 5. That's those four together, but not—
Bill:
Oh, is this one of those classic ones where that's every piece of denomination?
Ria:
No, 'cause I— they've got a $1 bill.
Tom:
It is much simpler than that. And also, you were right early on, Ria, when you said this is out of circulation.
Ria:
It's out of circulation.
Bill:
These are dollars of the Republic of Texas. These are—
Tom:
These are—
Dani:
Where did Denver get those?
Bill:
They made them. It's outsourced.
Tom:
(laughs)
Bill:
It's the American way.
Ria:
Are they mistakes? Are they actually mistakes from the Mint?
Tom:
No, you could still fool someone with that, I think. And mistakes from the Mint tend to be valuable.
Ria:
Oh, I didn't know that. Okay, fine. So it's old money that's worth 100— And 165, is that important? Like, specifically 165?
Tom:
No, no.
Ria:
No. Oh, fine. Okay.
Dani:
So it's still $165 worth.
Tom:
Mm.
Dani:
Then I go into Agatha Christie mode. Are they old war bonds or something like that?
Ria:
Are you in the guest— Are you in the gift store?
Tom:
Yes. Yeah. But these are free.
Bill:
They're free.
Tom:
Mhm.
Bill:
And you can't spend them. Are they...
Tom:
Mm—! Approximately $165 worth of untraceable currency is very, very carefully phrased here.
Bill:
Are they... Okay, is it like, torn and destroyed bills?
Tom:
Yes.
Bill:
Where the traceable part has been ripped off, and so if you wanna pay with it, you actually need to have the part that has the trace— the serial number, and the rest of it becomes valueless, basically?
Tom:
Even more than that, Bill.
Bill:
Even more than that. Now, how do I do more than my statement?
Tom:
How do they take notes out of circulation?
Ria:
What do they do when they take notes out of— I mean, what do we do?
Dani:
I have no idea.
Ria:
Here in the UK, you just take your old bill to the bank, and they give you a new bill.
Tom:
Yep. And that old bill gets burned in the UK.
Ria:
So he's taking ashes of old bills?
Dani:
Well, I guess they do something else.
Bill:
They don't burn them.
Ria:
Oh, they shred them?
Tom:
They shred them.
Ria:
Oh.
Dani:
Oh!
Bill:
Oh, it's confetti!
Ria:
So it's— Is it confetti?
Tom:
Yep. Visitors to the Denver Mint can fill souvenir bags with shredded US bank notes.
Bill:
Aw, that's fun.
Dani:
Oh, I see. Oh, yeah, that's joyous.
Ria:
That's great for a wedding. Do you know what I mean? "I wish you luck. I wish you wealth."
Tom:
The notes have been removed from circulation, shredded. They are technically still representing money by weight, but they're completely unusable. The government doesn't count them anymore, and... they can also be used in craft making.
Ria:
Oh.
Bill:
Mm.
Tom:
That is a personal anecdote from Riley, the question sender. At the end, they gave a small bag of shredded money as a gift.
Ria:
Awh.
Dani:
Nice.
Bill:
I love it.
Tom:
Each of our guests has brought a question with them. We'll start today with Ria.
Ria:
Okay, this question has been sent in by Eric from Amsterdam. Dank u wel, Eric, for the question. In 18th century Amsterdam, how could a horse, a hare, a ladder, and a milkmaid help you get your post delivered?
Dani:
(stifles giggle)
Ria:
In 18th century Amsterdam, how could a horse, a hare, a ladder, and a milkmaid help you get your post delivered?
Dani:
Ah, 18th century Amsterdam, my one weakness.
Tom:
(belly laughs)
Bill:
If this had just been about 19th century Amsterdam, we would've been fine. Mhm.
Dani:
Well, you know what? 18th century Dutch people liked coming to Australia.
Bill:
Could I just put an idea out of my brain, so we can all ignore it forever? Which is that this was an 18th century version of when Snakes and Ladders came to Amsterdam, but they had Horses and Ladders, and Milkmaids and Hares, and in the end, instead of achieving enlightenment, you were achieving a letter delivery?
Tom:
I didn't know you were achieving enlightenment in Snakes and Ladders.
Bill:
I don't know if you are, but there's a thing that the original game of Snake that— Snakes and Ladders is based on has, like, a, either a Hindu or a Buddhist origin in India. And there might be— it's like the trials. Again, please, if anyone's editing this and wants to fact-check before they put this in the episode, but there is some spiritual connection to a game that then got Hasbro'd.
Tom:
Thank you, Producer David. It was intended to teach children patience.
Bill:
There you are. And what is enlightenment but patience?
Ria:
I've never finished a game of Snakes and Ladders with my kids.
Tom:
(laughs)
Bill:
That's why you're not enlightened, Ria.
Ria:
We got frustrated and gave up. Oh dear, that didn't work, did it?
Tom:
(laughs)
Bill:
Steps before nirvana.
Dani:
Yeah, we've had mail sorts of questions before, and pictograms that meant do not bend and stuff like that. But so what could these particular ones mean? I don't feel like we've had this many alive things.
Bill:
Well, this is just how it happens. You get on your horse, and you ride into town. You give– You hand the mail over to a local hare, who hops it along into town, where the maids gather it. They put it with their milk when they're delivering milk to houses, and then everybody, because of the sea level issues, they all live upstairs, so you have to climb a ladder before you can get to their house. You deliver the mail. That's what life was like in the 18th century.
Ria:
I mean, I love it. I do feel like...
Tom:
(snickers)
Bill:
Do you like my whimsical world?
Ria:
I do, but I feel like it's slightly stolen from, what was the German village, where the dog stood on the horse, stood on the cat—
Dani:
Bremen.
Ria:
Bremen, right?
Bill:
Bremen.
Ria:
I feel like Bremen would have issues with that idea.
Dani:
That's where the animal musicians came from. So I assume that's where all fairytale-based animals come from.
Tom:
Okay, I'm gonna throw a completely different suggestion out there, that this is some sort of addressing system or pictographic way of directing the mail. And that the horse, hare, ladder, and milkmaid are... the origins of some glyphs that point the right way, that are now just simplified to help divide the city into quarters.
Ria:
You know what? You are very close, but actually almost too complica— You're complicating it more than you need to.
Tom:
Huh, okay.
Bill:
Are these just the names of streets in Amsterdam? I'm on Hare Street. I'm on Horse Road.
Tom:
They're the names of pubs in Amsterdam. The Horse, The Hare, The Ladder, The Milkmaid.
Bill:
Could be.
Tom:
Turn right at the Horse, left at the Hare.
Dani:
Who's going to the Ladder?
Ria:
You are so close, and yet not right on the money. Like you are, again, you're in the neighborhood, but for the wrong reasons. But, like, for the right reasons.
Tom:
I mean, if you're in Amsterdam, in the right neighbourhood for the wrong reasons(!)
Dani:
(guffaws)
Bill:
Okay, okay, okay.
Ria:
So, so, so yes. All of that thinking, but simplify it down.
Bill:
Are they— So are they landmarks? Is it part of giving directions?
Ria:
Yes.
Bill:
Okay. Is it a real horse? (cracks up)
Ria:
No.
Bill:
Alright.
Ria:
Tom is— Tom's got the exact idea correct. It's just that I think he gives... He's thinking of 21st century Amsterdam. We're talking 18th century Amsterdam. I don't think it was as spread out as it was back then. Do you know what I mean?
Tom:
Okay.
Ria:
Is the best way I could feel to give that clue.
Dani:
Near the horse statue in town. Or just near where the horses gather. Near where the ladders gather? That's not right.
Ria:
Right. I think, so you're all still trying to go, "How do I navigate the city?"
Bill:
But you don't need to.
Ria:
Yeah. You don't need to navigate the whole ci— I mean, to be fair, you are the postman. You do walk it every day. Like, you know your way around the town. But if you're trying to get this letter to Jans... or Koen... and you need, you know, you need to get it directly to Jans' or Koen's... how do you...
Bill:
Hmm. Is it just like, this is something that's on the front of their house? They've just painted a picture of a horse on their house? I'm horse house?
Ria:
Yes! I mean, it's actually..
Dani:
A thing house?
Ria:
It's actually made out of stone, so they were gable stones.
Bill:
Ooh.
Ria:
and so you would have the horse house, or the hare house or, you know, you would say, "Three doors down from the barber opposite the horse is the milkmaid pub."
Dani:
Ugh.
Ria:
But it was, they just didn't use numbers on houses. Which is so logical that you don't think, why would you not use numbers? But I guess they didn't necessarily build everything in a row maybe. I don't know.
Bill:
Hmm.
Dani:
You know, I do enjoy the brief time of year where you can say, "Alright, so you've gotta come to my house. Now, just bear with me. I'm opposite the three giant snowmen."
SFX:
(Tom and Bill laugh)
Ria:
So yes, the gable stones were used as waypoints when delivering mail or asking for directions, but they were pretty much on the houses. And this was sent in by Eric, who, it was a personal anecdote. His best friend from his teenage years used to live in the house with the hare facade stone described in the question.
Dani:
Nice.
Bill:
How fun.
Ria:
My friend at the rabbit house.
Tom:
This question comes from Thomas Arends. Thank you very much. Stathis limps into a building and passes by a bucket filled with eyeballs and ears. He speaks to a professional and hands over a short column of clay with a slight bend. After being advised to sleep, Stathis leaves satisfied. What did the clay resemble? I'm gonna say that again, 'cause there's a lot in that question. Stathis limps into a building and passes by a bucket filled with eyeballs and ears. He speaks to a professional and hands over a short column of clay with a slight bend. After being advised to sleep, Stathis leaves satisfied. What did the clay resemble?
Bill:
This question is what happens on other podcasts when they want to make fun of Lateral.
SFX:
(others cackling)
Bill:
This is someone being like, "Oh, have you heard of Tom Scott's new show? He's all just like, 'Oh, there's a guy, and he walks into a doctor's office, and he's got eyes and some clay, and it bends. But why should he be asleep?'"
Tom:
Good news, we're famous enough for that to happen! No, we're not famous enough for that to happen, no.
Dani:
Now, Bill, I will notice you did make a very crucial error. It didn't say he walks into a building. It said he limps into a building.
Tom:
Hmm.
Bill:
He limps into a building.
Ria:
I mean, my, my first thought was that this is the place where you get prosthetics made, and so that the clay was, the model that the professional needed in order to make him something that would help him stop limping.
Bill:
Hmm. Prosthetic eyes and ears.
Dani:
So you think, like, this, this piece of clay with a bend on it, he like, some part of his body, he pressed it against it to make it into a shape or something- Hmm ... that could be useful later?
Ria:
Yeah, like maybe he's limping 'cause he needs a, he needs a foot, and so this was the end of his ankle. You know? And—
Dani:
This is cooler than my first guess, which was that it was the Mr. Potato Head factory.
Tom:
(group laughing)
Bill:
Then again, they've got bendy arms.
Ria:
They do.
Tom:
Ria, you are along the right lines here. I'd go so far to say you've probably nailed the very last bit of the question of what did the clay resemble. So I'm gonna change the question to, what's going on here?
Ria:
Yeah, yeah, I couldn't figure out why he needs to sleep on it, unless it- Yeah... gave the professional time to make his foot.
Tom:
Or why you would bring in a clay replica that you made yourself rather than having someone take a mold of this. If you were,
Bill:
yeah, if you were the prosthetist- Ooh... you'd probably wanna do that yourself.
Tom:
Hmm.
Dani:
Well, I feel like, don't people do that for certain teeth molds and things? They make you sit with them in your mouth for a really long time, and then give it in, and that's how they make retainers. Hmm. For expensive ones. Maybe. Maybe. Maybe. I don't understand dentistry.
Ria:
It d- oh, gosh, did he lose his other f- f- foot to an accident? Like, not, not his original foot. Maybe he never had an original foot. But his other f- false foot in an accident, so the clay was him going, "I can't bring it to you, so here's the model of where it's stuck"? This is a very... I'm giving him backstory here.
Dani:
I love this character.
Ria:
And then he had to... And is the sleeping important, or is that literally to say, "Go away and come back again"?
Tom:
The sleeping is important.
Ria:
'Cause he felt better after sleeping- Hmm... didn't he?
Tom:
I said he left satisfied.
Ria:
Oh, he left... Oh, the... Okay, so he was told to sleep on it...
Tom:
Mhm.
Ria:
and he left satisfied.
Tom:
Yeah.
Ria:
Got it. Okay, sorry.
Bill:
Now, was he told to sleep on it, or was he told to sleep on it?
Dani:
Sleep on it.
Bill:
Oh. It's like, you take that thing and you sleep on that thing.
Tom:
He was advised- And then you can return... to sleep. You've all successfully recognized that this is something medical. You... that- Yes... wasn't actually in the question. You just got that straight away.
Ria:
I think the eyeballs and ears was a massive clue in that direction. Don't you
Dani:
think? Perhaps, but like, fake eyes I've seen. I haven't seen that many fake ears. I'm not surprised that people want them up there.
Ria:
No, I-
Tom:
You've also clocked that these aren't real body parts in the bucket. That wasn't in the question either.
Ria:
Hmm. No, it's tr- I've just never been to an estate agent, and they have a bucket of eyeballs and ears. You know? Like, it just kind of ruled out a number of locations- Yes that he could have limped into.
Tom:
Yes.
Dani:
Is the... So he, again, we are talking about him limping, and we went straight to he is missing a foot. It could also just be something else, like he could just have a bad knee or a bad hip or something like that.
Tom:
That is in fact what's wrong, yes.
Dani:
Yeah.
Bill:
Is, is, is this going in for a hip replacement or something, and this is the... 'Cause ob- 'cause don't they just, like, they atta- they just replace the bit at the top, the, the- Hmm... and they, and that, so it's just like a short bit of, of ceramic or metal or whatever.
Tom:
You have identified- Oh what that was. It's, it's- Oh... representing the part of him that's wrong. It's his knee.
Bill:
It is? Okay, it's his knee. Excellent. Your knee is bent.
Dani:
Alright. has anyone here had a knee replacement? Though why would you just tell him to go sleep?
Tom:
Hmm.
Bill:
Sleep it off.
Tom:
What sort of building do you think this is?
Bill:
I, well, yeah, I, I thought it was somewhere that he, that you would get- your, your get, like, prosthetics, but maybe not. Is it just a surgeon's office? Is it a-
Tom:
In a manner of speaking,
Bill:
yeah
Ria:
I mean, i- I mean, if he's limping and he's already had a knee replacement, they chopped off too much bone on either side, and that's why he's limping, 'cause they did it wrong, and he's now uneven. 'Cause you can get taller or shorter when you get knee replacements, so often if you need both done, they do them- Whoa at the same time to make sure that you stay the same height.
Dani:
Wild.
Tom:
That would not be an option for Stathis.
Dani:
What is wrong with your knee that they're gonna tell you? And who are they that they're just gonna say, "Eh, sleep. Something'll get better"?
Tom:
Who is going to say that? Yeah.
Ria:
the, the surgeon. He's go, "Go to sleep, and I'll fix this in surgery."
Tom:
Surgeon is not the right word, and surgery is not the right word.
Dani:
A hypnotist. A hypnotist. Oh.
Tom:
Hmm. Now, not quite. Ooh. Technically, technically slightly closer. Stathis- Is it the leader
Ria:
of the Green Party?
Tom:
Stathis doesn't have any options other than take this clay figure of your knee in and see what they can do.
Dani:
Well, n- now I'm going on to, like, y- you know, tr- traditional poppet-based magic.
Bill:
Is this a poppet-based magic question, Tom?
Tom:
Oh. So o- of those words... traditional and magic are the ones to go in there. Not gonna go with poppet-based. Perhaps, perhaps- Object based
Ria:
Did someone actually saw him in half in a trick, and now he's- He's like, "You gotta put me back together, mate"
Tom:
Different kind of magic.
Bill:
Is this like, they, they used to think that if you found a rock the shape of your kidney, it would heal your kidney disease. And so if you find a piece of clay-
Tom:
They used to think a lot of things here, Bill
Ria:
So this is, this is probably 18, 19th century.
Tom:
Keep going earlier.
Ria:
Oh, oh, okay.
Bill:
This is one of those men who was found in a peat bog from 8000 BC.
Tom:
Okay. W- split the difference there, Bill. If I tell you that this is a temple, does that help?
Bill:
It's in Roman
Tom:
Britain. Close enough. It's ancient Greece. It's a temple to Asclepius- Mr. Medicine himself ... god of medicine. Yes.
Ria:
Okay. They're gonna pray.
Tom:
Yep. In ancient Greece, people would bring a clay example of what ailed them as an offering and a tribute to the gods. So Stathis has brought a clay model of his knee. The healer will then take the offering, and encourage him to sleep in the hope that Asclepius would cure him, or that Stathis would dream of what he needed to do to get better.
Ria:
There were a lot of people with eyesight issues in ancient Greece, and hearing issues.
Tom:
Well, there were other buckets and other body parts.
Ria:
Oh, okay.
Bill:
We, for a while, as a piece of, of side content, were reading Joe Miller's Jests, the joke book from the 1700s, which was great fun trying to figure out what any of the jokes meant. But it... As part of that, we also looked at other old joke books, and there is an ancient joke book, the oldest sort of Western joke book is an ancient Greek joke book, that is maybe from a couple hundred AD or something like that. But it's, it... Or, or... And it's just... But what's, what's cool about it is so much of it is doctor-doctor jokes. It is, like, the setup is, it's ex- exactly the same structure as these modern, like, "Doctor, doctor, I think I'm an nerd," right? It's, "Oh, my, my knee hurts." "Oh, I've made a clay sculpture." But it's all the exact same joke of all these silly person going to a doctor, and the doctor going, "Oh, my God." They're like the oldest jokes we have on record.
Dani:
The two jokes that have stood the test of time are doctor-doctor jokes and your mama jokes.
Tom:
Bill, we will go to your question please.
Bill:
Alright. This question has been sent in by Sebastian from Norway. In 1964, Carl pumped hundreds of plastic balls into a freighter in Kuwait. However, his long-term plans were reportedly scuppered by Donald Duck. How? And once again. In 1964, Carl pumped hundreds of plastic balls into a freighter in Kuwait. However, his long-term plans were reportedly scuppered by Donald Duck. How?
Dani:
Oohh, we're going back to the old chestnut of Donald Duck being banned for no pants. Is that somehow relevant?
Ria:
I mean, hundreds of plastic balls. Were they in the form of crude oil 'cause he was in Kuwait?
Bill:
They were not.
Ria:
So they were already in ball form.
Tom:
Or they were taking up space in a freighter that was meant to have more oil in it. Like, if you, if he's filling a freighter with something that is not oil, maybe he's trying to cheat the system somehow.
Ria:
Right. So you said scuppered. Is Donald Duck a boat? 'Cause you scupper boats. So if he's put it in a freighter, the freighter's gone on a boat, it's been scuppered by something else called Donald Duck, and the boat that the balls were on, whatever they may be-
Bill:
In this question, Donald Duck is Donald Duck.
Ria:
Wow.
Dani:
And yet we're talking about this as, like, long-term plans, so-
Tom:
I have some Donald Duck knowledge up in my head, and none of it is helpful.
Ria:
When did Donald Duck get created? 'Cause this is in 1964. Yeah.
Tom:
That would've been Carl Barks, earlier than that. I think it was '40s, '50s.
Ria:
Uh-oh. Okay.
Tom:
Oh, yeah, 'cause, 'cause Donald Duck fought in World War II. Wow. Naturally. There are propaganda cartoons of Donald Duck from the Second World War.
Ria:
And he talks like, "Quack, quack." He's got that, "Quack, quack, quack, quack." He's got that weird- Yes... I can't do it. Quacky. Okay. And what else? The only other thing I know about Donald Duck is Huey, Dewey, and Louie. He's got three nephews.
Tom:
Yes.
Ria:
Yes. 'Cause he's an uncle. Mhm. Which at the time no one was worried about.
Dani:
He's a magician in Kingdom Hearts. Oh. But that feels less relevant. It's 40 years too early for that.
Tom:
But yeah, like, Donald Duck was used for military propaganda. Which is ironic because he's a duck, not a gander. Sorry! Hmm. Boom. I, oh, I apologize. Boom.
Ria:
I'm sorry. No, applause. Applause. That was beautiful. That was beautiful.
Tom:
But the 1964 would be past that, so, like, Donald Duck merchandise is what I'm thinking, like, the face on something, 'cause that, that was full Disney merch, the '60s.
Dani:
Interesting. Yeah, what do we think that this, th- this person had a bunch of plastic balls, and they thought that they were going to make a good old profit, or presumably a profit, out of this.
Tom:
Pumped gets me. Like, th- this is why I'm thinking oil tanker- Yes... filled with something that isn't oil. Oh. Pumped.
Ria:
Into a freighter. Mhm. And a freighter is... Are we saying freighter is a box or an entire vehicle? It's gotta be a boat. It's the vehicle, right?
Bill:
Yeah. It is a, it is, it is a boat. Yeah. It is explicitly a big boat. Right. D- Dani, no interest in, like, turning a profit on this, like- Really? ... on, like, sh- having shipped these plastic balls. These were not cargo.
Dani:
Oh, interesting. Oh, okay.
Ria:
So was the freighter full of balls the attraction in itself? He was, he was going to do Disney cruises before Disney was gonna do Disney cruises. Then Disney came along and went, "Uh-uh-uh."
Bill:
Oh, no, a big ball pit.
Ria:
Yeah, just a big floating ball pit. That does sound fun.
Tom:
That's actually great, yeah.
Bill:
It was definitely in no way an attraction.
Tom:
If it's not an attraction, and it's not a scam, how about an invention?
Bill:
That is much closer.
Tom:
Okay.
Bill:
It, it... You could call it... In fact, I think invention is pretty fair. At least-
Dani:
Is it tr- some sort of really bad hovercraft with a, with a balls of helium?
Tom:
If you have an empty freighter... no, if you have a half-empty freighter, you have a problem. If it's an oil tanker or something like that, and you have any of the liquid sloshing around inside... free surface effect means the boat's incredibly unstable. This is why tankers are always divided into several different sections, and those sections must be either all the way full or all the way empty, so the liquid doesn't slosh. So I'm wondering if the balls are there to take up the space and stop the sloshing.
Bill:
These balls were not there to prevent something going wrong. They were there to fix something that had gone wrong. But you are correct. What do you know about plastic balls?
Ria:
They float.
Bill:
They float.
Ria:
They float.
Tom:
They float.
Ria:
Do they absorb though? They're pla- you say plastic, so they're not absorbent I'm assuming. But they are floaty.
Bill:
No, but they're not absorbent, but they are buoyant.
Ria:
They are buoyant. So he's pumping them into plastic balls. I don't know what this has to do with Donald Duck, but the freighter isn't above the, the waterline. It's below the waterline, and they're pumping the balls in to try and lift the freighter back up to the surface.
Bill:
Ah. Yes. So this is what Carl is doing. Oh. He is helping to refloat a capsized freighter by pumping it full of these buoyant plastic balls, displacing the water, and giving it enough lift to l- lift up and rise up. But that's only half of the question. We know what Carl's doing now. That's fine. But the question was why were his plans were scuppered by Donald Duck?
Dani:
Disney invented some sort of fizzy lifting drink that completely usurped this ball plan.
Tom:
Was he trying to raise the Titanic later? Or raise some other big boat with this technology?
Bill:
No. Oh. But he did think that this technology would be good for raising boats in other contexts. So what does he wanna do?
Ria:
he want... Oh, is it to do with Disneyland? You know how, I think it was in the LA Disneyland they had a submarine ride?
Tom:
Oh.
Ria:
They had a, or a f- glass bottom boat ride? Really?
Tom:
Yeah, no, that's- Am I imagining that? ... that's still there. It's a- Oh... it, it's a submarine ride. The boat doesn't technically dive, but they put bubbles in the window to make it look like you're diving. And you are- Ah... actually under the surface of the water in the boat. It, no one would ever design it this way now, but it's one of the, like, early Disneyland attractions that's still going. But that's not Donald Duck. He's not in that.
Ria:
So is it S- it's Donald Duck specifically rather than he's a representation for the Disney core?
Bill:
It is explicitly Donald Duck. I will actually say- Looking at an image, it is explicitly Huey, Dewey, and Louie, but it is Donald Duck, as a property is ruining his long-term plans after he-
Tom:
People like naming stuff after, like, characters and things like that. I'm thinking that Huey, Dewey, and Louie might be, like, three, boat-lifting mini boats. Some, some invention that is better than the plastic balls.
Bill:
I would say very explicitly it's not better than the plastic balls.
Tom:
But it is cheaper.
Bill:
Hmm. I think it's important to note that when Karl did his plastic balls trick, it was the first, at least large scale, actual use of this technique.
Ria:
Did Donald Duck patent it so that our lad couldn't do his own thing anymore?
Tom:
No! No.
Bill:
We have—
Tom:
Prior art! You're so close, Ria!
Bill:
Prior art.
Tom:
You can't patent something if there's already a version of it out there, like if Donald Duck in a 1940s cartoon decides to float a boat by pumping a load of plastic balls into it, because the animators thought that would be funny.
Bill:
There is a picture in front of me from a 1949 comic strip of Donald Duck called "The Sunken Yacht", where a stricken vessel is raised by filling it with ping pong balls. That's incredible. Tom, you are completely correct. Ah. Karl, so this is Karl Krøyer, the Danish engineer. He was, getting a patent for this technique, and the Dutch Patent Office was aware of this Donald Duck cartoon and refused to grant him the patent because of prior art. this was not an issue everywhere. He did get the patent in the UK, in Germany, and a lot of other places. But the Dutch Patent Office would not give him the patent.
Tom:
And I'll bet I know why. The Disney Ducks are incredibly popular in northern and western continental Europe. Like Norway, Swe—
Dani:
Because of the lack of pants.
Tom:
Norway, Sweden, Denmark, and the Netherlands I think still have Donald Duck comics at supermarket checkouts. Like, they are- Oh, wow... so popular over there, and I bet that patent examiner knew the Donald Duck reference and was like, "I have seen this before."
Ria:
Would, wouldn't it be ironic if the patent office- Right... in Amsterdam was at the duck building?
Bill:
Hey. This is also a thing that there's, like, a whole meme of this, of, like, Donald Duck did it first, including for example the entirety of the movie Inception, is likened to a Donald Duck comic from the '60s. there's little inventions and things that pop up in Donald
Ria:
Duck. C- can we have Donald Duck for president? 'Cause The Simpsons kept predicting stuff. And I'm like, The Simpsons needs to stop if they keep doing this, 'cause it's not going well. Maybe Donald Duck could step up.
Tom:
Thank you to Jeremy for this question. In 1986, Petey's wife said over a radio, "Hello, Petey, can you hear me? If you can't, you're in trouble." Petey heard her clearly through his discreet earpiece, but he got into serious trouble because, elsewhere, James heard this too. Why? I'll say that again. In 1986, Petey's wife said over a radio, "Hello, Petey, can you hear me? If you can't, you're in trouble." Petey heard her clearly through his discreet earpiece, but he got into serious trouble because, elsewhere, James heard this too. Why?
Ria:
He was with James' wife. And if he couldn't hear it, then he wasn't with James' wife, and then he would've been fine. But he could hear it, but so could James. And that's why they were all upset.
Tom:
I'll tell you, knowing this story, that would be an incredible twist. In so many ways!
Bill:
In this context, James is James Bond. He's overhearing, as a spy, a radio message, given to the German spy, Petey or Petey, from his wife, and they're working together. It's a spy story. This is my legitimate guess. And, that's wh- and that was why he got into trouble, because, you know, he got killed by the British government, being, for being a spy.
Tom:
It is very, very vaguely a spy story, Bill. Hmm. And you may have heard of the James.
Bill:
James?
Tom:
You're not gonna guess the James, but you may have heard of the James.
Dani:
My, my first, guess, if we're throwing our context out there, was that it was someone cheating in some sort of sport or game. Like, it was someone on a quiz show and the quiz show host heard them.
Tom:
Yes, by spy story, that's the sort of thing I mean here.
Dani:
Okay, okay.
Ria:
Ooh, that's quite cool. I mean, we used coughing for our cheating quiz shows, rather than earpieces.
Tom:
(laughs)
Dani:
That's true, yes. I have heard that one.
Tom:
The original plan for that apparently was to have a pager in four different pockets. That's how old the coughing quiz scandal is. They were gonna have four pagers. And they discarded that because it was far too complicated than just having someone cough at the right time.
Dani:
I recently, I was on Millionaire Hot Seat in our country recently.
Tom:
No kidding!
Dani:
And the episode's aired, so I can talk about that. But so yeah, when you are not the active player, you're sitting nearby, and I actually found it really hard not to just start nodding or going...
SFX:
(Tom and Bill laugh)
Dani:
Mouthing, "It's A," not on purpose to the person, not to help them cheat, but just 'cause that was, like, it's how you act when you're at home on the couch.
Ria:
So true.
Tom:
Okay, I'm gonna bring you back, 'cause you've got mo— you've got a lot of this. You have identified that James is intercepting a radio transmission. I think you've got that. And you've got that Petey is ch- not cheating at a quiz show, but certainly not doing what he's claiming.
Bill:
Oh. James Randi
Tom:
James Randi
Bill:
It's James Randi!
Dani:
Oh, that James! That makes sense.
Ria:
Who's James Randi?
Bill:
Oh, it's James Ran— Oh, Ria, it's just James Randi.
Dani:
James Randi is a big old magic debunker.
Bill:
He's a sce— He's a famous sceptic.
Dani:
Well—
Tom:
Magician and debunker. He was the Amazing Randi.
Bill:
Yes.
Tom:
He was a famous magician.
Dani:
Yes.
Tom:
And then set up a million dollar prize for anyone who could prove they have paranormal abilities, which was never claimed.
Ria:
So, and this still has nothing to do with his wife? 'Cause his name is Randi.
Tom:
No.
Ria:
Okay.
Tom:
So given that, given that James Randi was in the closet for most of his life- Oh definitely not to do with his
Ria:
It definitely had nothing to do with his boyfriend.
Tom:
No, not in this case.
Ria:
Okay.
Bill:
yeah, so James Randi does a lot of, like, a lot of the famous debunkings. He famously had a big thing with Uri Geller.
Tom:
Mhm.
Bill:
a lot of, like, someone on TV being like, "Oh, I can move these with my mind," him going, "Maybe just stop blowing on them, dummy." So this is presumably someone who's going to read a mind, read a card, look at something from an angle they could never possibly see, and the wife is off i- in the back with a pair of binoculars being like, "He's holding up a card with a triangle on it. Say triangle."
Tom:
Absolutely spot on. Have you heard of Peter Popoff?
Ria:
(shudders) No.
Bill:
Yes. I think I have, as one of the many James Randi debunkings.
Tom:
He was a faith healer, and he was on stage in front of a big crowd that had filled in prayer cards beforehand, and those prayer cards had been taken up to his wife at the back, who had a little microphone, and he had a little earpiece, and who was simply reading the cards to him as he deduced what people's ailments were, and healed them. And there is a very strong set of quotation marks around healed there.
Bill:
And did he rec- I think I may have heard this audio at some point. Did he record this at some point? Is it on a... Did he have-
Tom:
James Randi had a whole TV episode about this. Yeah. He exposed this publicly. He played the radio transmissions. I've heard this recording. And that, that intonation in the question, "if you can't, you're in trouble," that- Yeah... that was how Petey's wife said those words. I do have to be slightly careful here, because I, I checked this, and to my surprise, Peter Popoff is not only still alive, he is still ministering, whatever the term is for that. There are still people on his Facebook page posting amen under the things that he posts.
Dani:
And if he's anything like Uri Geller, he won't give up the fight easily.
Tom:
No, he won't. Dani, it is over to you for your question, please.
Dani:
Excellent. Alright, let's get into this. James looks at a device displaying a quotation from a globetrotting novel by Jules Verne. 78 minutes later, he sees a sentence written by H.G. Wells. How is this useful? And one more time. James looks at a device displaying a quotation from a globetrotting novel by Jules Verne. 78 minutes later, he sees a sentence written by H.G. Wells. How is this useful?
Tom:
There are times when I regret going to the players in a random order here, because I'm immediately thinking, alright, it's James Randi.
Dani:
(cackles)
Tom:
He's debunking someone.
Dani:
Look, it may have been. I have no proof one way or the other whether this is James Randi again or not, so let's say it is. It'll make it more fun.
Bill:
I wanna say... the following phrase and sentence: 78 yea...
Tom:
Minutes.
Bill:
What, 78 minutes?
Dani:
But definitely not years.
Bill:
But I was gonna say, what would 78 years be between Jules Verne and H.G. Wells?
Ria:
What do you mean... You mean like around...
Bill:
As in Jules Verne was late 17— like right at the end of the 1700s?
Ria:
I thought he was early 18— I thought they were both sort of contemporaries in the 18s.
Bill:
Yeah.
Tom:
I think they're—
Bill:
I would say Jules Verne is—
Dani:
It's mentioned in... as being recent in... the third Back to the Future, which is 1885, so I don't think that can be true.
Bill:
Oh, okay. Wait, wait, I've gone crazy. I'm just— You're right. I think what you're doing is you've got actual information, and I'm just making up facts in my head. I think that's the difference here.
Dani:
Okay, okay. Glad we cleared that up.
Ria:
Well, 78 is so close to 80. You know, Around the World in 80 Days.
Tom:
Yeah. Around the World in 80 Days is, that's Verne, right?
Ria:
That's Verne.
Bill:
Yeah.
Ria:
H.G. Wells is War of the Worlds.
Tom:
Or The Time Machine.
Bill:
Or The Time Machine.
Ria:
Or The Time Machine. Let's ignore his History of the World, because that was possibly stolen from a woman in Canada, but that's a totally other story.
Tom:
Huh.
Dani:
Nice.
Ria:
Yes, such a good story. Mystery. It's almost a mystery, and you have to make your own mind up. But, so, alright, so we've got Jules Verne, Around the World in 80 Days, but also Journey to the Center of the Earth.
Tom:
Oh, yes.
Dani:
I'll say you have absolutely already named the two pieces in question.
Tom:
Okay, so it's definitely 80 Days Around the World. No, that's the... It is Around the World in 80 Days.
Ria:
In 80 Days.
Bill:
Yes.
Dani:
Mhm.
Tom:
And not the cartoon series from my childhood that had a lion as... the character going around the world, the first line of the theme tune to which is "80 Days Around the World", which is apparently more in my head than the title of the novel!
Dani:
(laughs heartily)
Ria:
We had very different childhoods.
Dani:
Well done. Well done.
Tom:
Around the World with Willy Fog. Thank you very much, David, for reminding me of the name. Hell of a theme tune.
Dani:
(guffaws)
Ria:
Okay, so we did name four pieces of work there, and we need to narrow it to two. I really wish I had some pagers in my pockets.
Dani:
Yeah, we could reminisce about these great works of literature for a long time, but Around the World in 80 Days and The Time Machine are the two that were being specifically referenced here.
Ria:
Okay, can I ask a question? So this device showed a quote from Jules Verne, and then 78 minutes later, a quote from H.G. Wells.
Dani:
Correct.
Ria:
How is this device useful? One presumes it's like a clock then, tells time in some way. Or a calendar, a calendar clock.
Bill:
Yeah. Is it instead of like...
Dani:
Absolutely, you are 100% right about that.
Bill:
Do they mention these times in the books, and it's just like a quote that says, "Something, something, it's 10:00", and then another quote that says, "At 11:18, this thing happened", and it just displays the time in quotes?
Ria:
Yeah, yeah.
Dani:
That is exactly what's going on. It's an author clock.
Tom:
Wow.
Dani:
It's full of literary passages that have all of of these quotes about times.
Ria:
I want one.
Dani:
So, I've got the Around the World in 80 Days one, and the time part is bolded, and it just says, "The clock indicated eighteen minutes to nine. The players took up their cards, but could not keep their eyes off the clock. Certainly however secure they felt, minutes had never seemed so long to them!" And then 78 minutes later, The Time Machine mentions that "it's ten o'clock to-day that the time machine began its career."
Ria:
That's beautiful.
Dani:
There is also another version of this that's out there that's an author forecast, where it's got literary passages of the local weather that you might be experiencing.
Bill:
That's nice.
Ria:
That's what AI should be used for.
Tom:
(laughs)
Dani:
The ultimate goal surely is for one quote, like the start of Nineteen Eighty-Four, to be used for both clocks. It's, "It was a bright, cold day in April, and the clocks were striking 13." It's perfect.
Ria:
Boom.
Tom:
Which means we only have the question from the start of the show. Thank you to Edward Carpenter for this. What links Rebecca, The Maltese Falcon, and "The Monster Mash"? Anyone wanna take a guess at that? Bill immediately.
Bill:
I think I know.
Dani:
I got a little bit maybe.
Bill:
It's— That's not what— Is it— Is the answer that's not what it is? That ain't the thing?
Dani:
They aren't the thing... They don't appear in the thing.
Bill:
The thing's not the thing that you think the thing is.
Tom:
Dani's got it. They don't appear in the thing.
Dani:
I only just learned that about Rebecca recently.
Tom:
Yes, so—
Ria:
Who's Rebecca?
Bill:
Who's Rebecca?
Tom:
This is the Daphne du Maurier novel. Dani, do you wanna give us the précis?
Dani:
Nope.
Tom:
Okay.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Dani:
I have got... That's all I know.
Tom:
Rebecca has died before the story begins, but the novel is all about the consequences of her memories and the anxieties of the other characters. In the film The Maltese Falcon, the jewel-encrusted statuette is actually a forgery. And "The Monster Mash"...
Bill:
It's just a song about the fact that they did the Monster Mash, but it's not the Monster Mash itself.
Tom:
They did the Monster Mash, and we never see what the Monster Mash is, other than it was a graveyard smash. Thank you very much to all of our players. Where can people find you? What's going on in your lives? We'll start with Ria.
Ria:
Hi. You can find me on the social media platform of your choice. Well, not X. Oh, I am on X. I'm still on X, but only because I haven't got rid of that account. But also find me on Patreon, where I do Paper Jam every Sunday. Would love to see you there.
Tom:
And Bill.
Bill:
You can find everything we do at consumethismedia.com, which is Escape This Podcast, Solve This Murder, and all of that fun stuff.
Tom:
And Dani, mention something that Bill hasn't just mentioned. Good luck!
Dani:
You can also find us on Twitch, where we stream puzzle games. That's playthisgame_live.
Tom:
And if you wanna know more about this show, you can do that at lateralcast.com, where you can also send in your own ideas for questions and join the Lateral Producer's Club. We are at @lateralcast basically everywhere, and there are full video episodes every week on Spotify. Thank you very much to Dani Siller.
Dani:
Thank you so much.
Tom:
Bill Sunderland.
Bill:
Hello, bye.
Tom:
Ria Lina.
Ria:
Thank you.
Tom:
I've been Tom Scott, and that's been Lateral.
Episode Credits
| HOST | Tom Scott |
| QUESTION PRODUCER | David Bodycombe |
| EDITED BY | Julie Hassett at The Podcast Studios, Dublin |
| MUSIC | Karl-Ola Kjellholm ('Private Detective'/'Agrumes', courtesy of epidemicsound.com) |
| ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS | Edward Carpenter, Eric, Sebastian, Riley Wells, Thomas Arends, Jeremy |
| FORMAT | Pad 26 Limited/Labyrinth Games Ltd |
| EXECUTIVE PRODUCERS | David Bodycombe and Tom Scott |