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Episode 214: The one-legged stool
13th November, 2026 • Lizzy Skrzypiec, Mark Cooper-Jones and Jay Foreman face questions about necessary nymphs, celebrated crooks and broken bridges.
Transcription by Caption+
Tom:
Why might you use the words "vibex," "waltz," "nymph," "fjord," and "gucks" once a day? The answer to that at the end of the show. My name's Tom Scott and this is Lateral. Hello and welcome to Lateral. Uh, before we begin, we have recently decided to try something new to reach new guests. We have created a profile for the show on a dating app. Uh, it says, "Name: Lateral, Age: about 200 episodes but feels 150. Bio: would like to meet people with a good sense of humour who enjoy puzzles, speculation, and occasionally being completely wrong in public. Likes: unusual trivia, clever ideas, and penny-drop moments. Dislikes: obvious answers, spoilers, and anyone who says, 'Just Google it.'" And today we have been matched with three excellent guests. We start with one half of the Map Men. Welcome to the show, Jay Foreman.
Jay:
Hello! Thanks very much for having me. I'm nervous on this day.
Tom:
And you are in front of a lot of maps.
Jay:
Oh, yeah. This is where we film our show Map Men. These are the real maps on the wall behind us. In fact, if you look up here, there's yet more maps on the ceiling.
Tom:
Oh! There's yet more maps.
Jay:
There's maps that way. There's maps that way.
Tom:
Do you source specific maps for this or is it just, "These are the maps we have found over the years?"
Jay:
To be honest, I don't know. You'd have to ask Mark Cooper-Jones. He's the one that sources all the maps. If he's around, you could ask him.
Tom:
Well, let me just che— oh! My word! It's the other half of the Map Men, Mark Cooper-Jones!
Mark:
Hello! It's so nice to be here. I'd been looking at all my maps.
Tom:
I regret that introduction. (stammering) I don't know why I thought I'd go full comedy kids TV presenter there and I regret every moment of it.
Lizzy:
I liked it! I liked it!
Tom:
Mark, welcome to the show. Where do you source the maps?
Mark:
Well, they're sort of... they're like a collection of old maps I found in my parents' attics. I think one or two of them had been picked up from second-hand shops. Uh, you know, when you're— I mean, maps accrue over the years, don't they? I mean, I'm 40 now, so you just— everyone— every sort of 40-year-old has a few maps knocking about, don't they? Any self-respecting 40-year-old.
Jay:
Mark, you're not just 40. You're a dad. It means that you've got a row of older survey maps on a shelf.
Mark:
I do. Not this shelf behind me, but I do have them, exactly.
Tom:
Well, good luck to both of you on the show today. We are joined again by one of Lateral's regulars, Lizzy Skrzypiec. Welcome back.
Lizzy:
Thank you for having me. It's good to be here.
Tom:
I'm never sure how to introduce you because we have both TV producer and we have improver— im— impro— improviser! That's the word!
Lizzy:
Yes, otherwise it's just "improver" and I hope that I do do that. Um, but yes, I do— I have many hats. I wear may of them. That sounds like a—
Tom:
Well, to be fair, in the stage show, you really do.
Lizzy:
Yes, yes. I both solve and commit crimes, uh, onstage for comedy reasons.
Tom:
Uh, you should plug— you should plug the show.
Lizzy:
So yes, we're, uh— I'm, um— "Murder, She Didn't Write— the show I'm in and direct— is on tour so we're committing and solving crimes at various places in the UK, so come watch us.
Tom:
Well, good luck to all three of you today. Let's see if we can bumble our way through question one. Thank you to Kelby Hackett for this question. Adriene is a yoga teacher, and Larry is a power lifter. As such, Adriene's acnestis is significantly smaller than Larry's. What is it? I'll say that again. Adriene is a yoga teacher, and Larry is a power lifter. As such, Adriene's acnestis is significantly smaller than Larry's. What is it?
Jay:
For some reason when you were telling me about these two colleagues and their different jobs, I could only— I could not stop myself imagining one powerlifting the other.
Tom:
(laughs) I'm wondering where you got "colleagues" from.
Jay:
Well, they're sharing the same sentence. Maybe they know each other.
Tom:
(laughs)
Mark:
Yeah, that's how sentences and colleagues work.
Tom:
That's true of colleagues and prisoners.
Jay:
(laughs)
Mark:
Well, obviously the first and most obvious thought... that would get sort of buzzers ringing on— on something like QI would be that it's a muscle, but you literally did an intro, Tom, that was like, "We don't like obvious answer." So I'm not gonna say that. I'm just not gonna say it.
Lizzy:
It does sound like part of the body. I do agree. Like, maybe it's a bit, like, obviously Adriene's got more chill because she's a yoga teacher and so maybe it's, like, the bit of you that produces anger or, like, the stuff you power lift with.
Mark:
Actually, it is a real yoga teacher. Yoga with Adriene. Anyone done that?
Lizzy:
Yeah. She's— she's real.
Tom:
Yep, and Larry in this question is named after power lifter Larry Wheeler.
Mark:
So does he just have a bigger power lifting following? Is that what an— what's the word, even? Acne-something.
Tom:
He has a bigger acnestis.
Jay:
Acnestis.
Mark:
Acnestis.
Tom:
Yes.
Lizzy:
Yes.
Jay:
Can we get a spelling?
Tom:
Uh, A-C-N-E-S-T-I-S.
Jay:
How it sounds. Doesn't help at all.
Mark:
Is it an illness? Sounds like an illness.
Lizzy:
Oh, that sounds sad. It's an illness!
Jay:
"Acnestitis" sounds like an illness.
Lizzy:
A very itchy one.
Mark:
It's a not good growth.
Tom:
Oh, well, Lizzy... closer than you might think with that. Not a disease but, um, you say "a very itchy one." Um, not a million miles away.
Jay:
Oh!
Lizzy:
OK. Is it to do with lycra? It's gotta be a lycra-based thing.
Mark:
Does it chafe, yeah.
Jay:
Is it to do with the clothing that you wear when you do yoga or heavy-lifting? Prospectively. See, I know very little about either of those things. I mean, just look at me. I've never done either yoga or heavy lifting.
Lizzy:
I've done heavy lifting!
Jay:
What's it like?
Lizzy:
Um, heavy.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Lizzy:
Yeah, but as in, like, I've done weightlifting. Part of me was wondering if it's like the calloused bits of your hands.
Tom:
It's an effect on the body, yes, and, Jay, you're right. You haven't done either of those things. And you can probably tell that from— from the way your body is and behaves.
Jay:
Alright.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Mark:
'Cause— 'cause of your miniscule acnestis. (laughs)
Tom:
I think Jay would probably have an about average acnestis.
Jay:
That's what people say about me. It's what it says in my dating profile.
Mark:
Does your— are we looking at this the wrong way around? Does yoga reduce your acnestis?
Tom:
Yes. And powerlifting would increase it, yes.
Mark:
Would increase it.
Tom:
Really, really good thought there, Mark.
Jay:
Does that mean that it's to do with stress and managing stress? 'Cause what do we know about yoga? Yoga is a process that through the medium of architecture turns your body into a temple. Which massively reduces your acnosis.
Tom:
Acnestis.
Lizzy:
Acnestis.
Jay:
And your acnestis. Heavy lifting, unlike yoga— which turns your body into some sort of building— heavy lifting makes your body instead— and I'm gonna keep the sentence going until it comes to me... It makes it bigger. It makes it more stressed.
Tom:
Yeah. It makes it bigger.
Jay:
Bigger and stressed. It makes it bigger.
Tom:
And— and stressed. Yeah. But that makes your body bigger. What effect does yoga have on the body?
Mark:
Makes it more supple, calming.
Tom:
Yep, more supple, Mark. More flexible.
Jay:
OK, softer.
Mark:
So it's flexibility. That's— what does suppleness reduce in size? That kind of flexibility or ligaments or— is it inflammation of some sort? No.
Lizzy:
Is it that— is acnestis the— the thing where you make a noise when you get up?
SFX:
(group laughing)
Lizzy:
So it's like— (groans)
Tom:
You're think— you're kinda thinking along the right lines there, Lizzy. It's not like an organ. It is a— a part of the body that is more defined by something.
Lizzy:
It's like the effect, is it? Of some—
Mark:
Oh, the nervous system.
Tom:
It is to do with the nervous system, kind of. Yeah, and again, Lizzy— Lizzy talked about, uh, things being a bit itchy.
Jay:
The amount of size of itching?
Tom:
Getting close, Jay. Remember about the body types we've got here.
Jay:
I can't be getting close. That didn't make any sense.
Tom:
No, it did! I promise you it did!
Jay:
Alright, so... A supple body will have a smaller ignicius.
Tom:
Acnestis!
Jay:
And a large body— and an acnestis.
Tom:
A large powerlifter body, certainly.
Jay:
Is this something that a doctor without knowing in advance whether or not this is a yoga instructor or a heavy lifter could diagnose just from looking? Is this something that you or I could diagnose? Once we know what an agnostiestis is—
Tom:
I don't think you can see it visually, but you can take a guess.
Lizzy:
Is it sweatiness?
Tom:
That would affect whether you were, um—
Lizzy:
The itchiness?
Tom:
Itchy! (stammers)
Mark:
Is it about whether you can reach an itch or not? 'Cause if you're supple you can get around the back or something.
Lizzy:
Ooh!
Jay:
Oh!
Mark:
And if you've got big muscles, you're absolutely trapped.
Tom:
Yes!
Mark:
And I don't know what an acnestis, though.
Tom:
What might the acnestis be?
Jay:
The angle around which you can reach to scratch yourself. It's a measure— is it measured in degrees?
Tom:
Jay, close enough. I've give that to you. It is the— the opposite of that. It is the part of your back that you cannot scratch.
Jay:
Oh, brilliant!
Lizzy:
Oh, and Tom, I know that as the part of the back that you can't tan so when I've got fake tan on, there's sometimes a little oblong on my back.
Tom:
That is your acnestis.
Lizzy:
That's my— yes. I can't tan there.
Jay:
Oh, that's brilliant!
Tom:
Yes.
Jay:
That's a great word and a great way of learning what it is as well.
Tom:
Yeah, if you are a yoga teacher, your— you know— your hands can probably reach all the way up to the nape of your neck. If you are a power lifter like Larry Wheeler, well, he said that he cannot scratch his back. He just physically cannot. The muscles get in the way of each other.
Jay:
Oh, wow.
Tom:
Also, I can reach, uh, the back of my neck with, uh— with one hand, which I'm quite happy about.
Lizzy:
Yeah, but can you move side to side? Now imagine there's a mitt on your hand, Can you move it— you can't! You can just do one up—
Jay:
I can sort of reach both my hands behind my back and grip my own— like that.
Tom:
Yeah.
Jay:
If I had, like, fake tan on there I could get my—
Tom:
Yeah, you can do that. Anyway—
Lizzy:
I think you'd struggle.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Jay:
I'd look silly doing it.
SFX:
(Tom and Lizzy laugh)
Tom:
Each of our guests has brought a question with them. Uh, we'll start with Lizzy today.
Lizzy:
This question has been sent in by RedCree. Charles Arthur Floyd was an American burglar and bank robber in the 1930s. Why did many ordinary Americans regard him as a legendary hero for what he destroyed? Do you want that again with more pizzazz?
Tom:
Yeah.
Jay:
Yeah.
Lizzy:
Charles Arthur Floyd was an American burglar and bank robber in the 1930s. Why did many ordinary Americans regard him as a legendary hero for what he destroyed?
Tom:
I've heard this story. It's on the Map Men.
Jay:
Ooh. So this takes place in the 1930s and I'm guessing by the way that he didn't destroy something permanently, that whatever he destroyed, people thought it was a good thing and then they just built another one. Or am I wrong? Did he permanently destroy something?
Lizzy:
I don't know many things that you destroy and then you immediately have a new one. Except for maybe iPhones or—
SFX:
(group laughing)
Mark:
And actually, come to think of it, anything disposable. Uh, and anything in a shop. I can destroy it and I can get a new one immediately. And with Amazon, there's almost nothing I can't get immediately that I can destroy.
Lizzy:
But this is the 1930s.
Mark:
Yes, true.
Jay:
It's the 1930s and so there's all sorts of things that, you know, we just put up with now and we take for granted but back in the 1930s the first time there was a car park barrier that people didn't like that he smashed through on the way out of the bank, they were happy it was gone.
Mark:
(laughs)
Jay:
No?
Lizzy:
I love that but, I mean—
Mark:
I had a— I had a moment when Tom said... "This one's on the Map Men." I was like, "We've done a video on this."
SFX:
(group laughing)
Mark:
And I was like, "Tom knows it and I don't, and we've done a video about it."
Tom:
That has happened to me in the past where someone's gone, "Oh, I like that video you did about—" I'm like, "I have no memory of—"
Mark:
I just can't remember.
Tom:
Nope, nothin'.
Mark:
OK, so is the thing he destroyed I suppose associated— I'm gonna presume it was associated with his burglary and bank robbing endeavors. This was not a— a parallel side hustle in destroying, um, uh, you know, uh something else like the patriarchy. Um, so—
Tom:
Popular thing for bank robbers to destroy in the 1930s, that.
Jay:
He destroyed it in one fell swoop in the 1930s. And everything's been fine since.
Mark:
Yeah, exactly. Um—
Jay:
So he destroyed it because it was part of his plan to rob a bank. And it wouldn't be something obvious like he destroyed the front door of the bank because I doubt all the villagers would be celebrating, "Hooray, we hated that door." I also don't know why I went with "villagers".
Tom:
I didn't know why you went with "villagers".
Jay:
No, this— you know, this takes place in America. It wasn't, you know— they wouldn't be villagers, would they? Townsfolk.
Mark:
It's very medieval.
Jay:
Citizens.
Mark:
Yeah.
Jay:
Either way, they were happy he destroyed this thing because it was a thing that they didn't like. (smacks lips) Saying it out loud hasn't helped. Um, did he have help, by the way? Did he destroy this thing on his own or was there, like, a team of accomplices?
Lizzy:
Um, it doesn't say but I assume he did it on his own.
Jay:
Did he wear a sort of pointy green hat with a feather in it? And was he a fox in some versions?
Lizzy:
Ooh, interesting thing to liken him to. Follow that if you like.
Jay:
OK, so... Robin Hood, as in rob the rich, feed the poor. (inhales sharply) So he destroyed something... That led—
Mark:
Capitalism.
Jay:
He destroyed capitalism by robbing a big bank.
Mark:
It must be capitalism. (laughs) But this is— this is, like, post— post crash years.
Lizzy:
So how could you do that? Is this something to do with the post-crash? You're probably just gonna get this straight off. You're doing really well.
Mark:
He destroyed the stock exchange.
Jay:
He destroyed something to do with the stock exchange which of course in those days was all done on an Apple II.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Jay:
He got a big mallet. Am I on the right lines that he destroyed some sort of technology related to the stock exchange?
Lizzy:
No, you are not, but you— the best you were was with, um, destroying capitalism.
Mark:
Hmm, that was a joke. Um...
Lizzy:
And it was really— it was really good.
Mark:
It's annoying when a joke is—
Tom:
It's really annoying, isn't it?
Mark:
Yeah! (laughs) Um, Okay. So, does it represent— is it something that represents that thing? Or is it a thing? Sorry, that's so useless.
Lizzy:
It's a thing.
Mark:
It's a thing.
Jay:
He destroyed a real thing.
Mark:
It's a physical thing.
Lizzy:
It's in a bank. You were right about it being in a bank.
Mark:
He destroys a vault. Come on. It's gotta be. No.
Jay:
Did he destroy the fountain in the lobby of a big bank? Well, what do banks have? Let's think. They've got those special little rooms that you need a key card to go into for the ATM. They've got, uh, little windows where people serve you with cages on them. They've got big doors. They've got medium-size doors.
Tom:
I love that Jay was basically there until he swerved off with Apple II.
Lizzy:
Yep.
Jay:
Oh, what did I say before Apple II? The stock exchange in those days was powered not by a computer but by a—
Lizzy:
I would move away from stock exchange, but it's something that the bank had, yeah.
Mark:
But it's physical. It's a physical thing.
Lizzy:
Yes, and you used Robin Hood as well. And why— and that was a really good analogy.
Jay:
OK. Something the bank had... That in destroying helped to make things more equal. He destroyed capitalism by destroying a thing that belonged to the bank. Great, I've got it. Well, thanks very much.
Lizzy:
Just say that thing! Just say that thing!
Mark:
Say the thing! The— the thing that's not a vault. It's not a—
Jay:
It belongs to the bank and it's physically in the bank which he destroyed.
Mark:
Is it a piece of paper? Is it a— is it—
Lizzy:
Yeah.
Jay:
All the records! He destroyed all the pieces of paper that said how much money everybody has.
Mark:
The ledger.
Jay:
So everyone started— yeah, so everyone started from zero.
Lizzy:
I think people would be more angry at that, if they destroyed their savings.
Jay:
Not if it was— not if it was only the ledger belonging only to the very rich people.
Mark:
The debt!
Jay:
The debt!
Lizzy:
Very good. So what type of— what type of debt?
Jay:
Bad debt.
Lizzy:
There' one specific debt that lots of people have.
Jay:
All mortgages?
Lizzy:
Boom, you got it!
Jay:
Hey!
Lizzy:
He destroyed all of their mortgage papers so essentially wiped out everybody's debts. And that's why he was a hero to loads of people. Great guy!
Mark:
Oh, that's amazing.
Lizzy:
Yeah, he was actually called Pretty Boy Floyd. So he's not just helpful. He was good-looking. And he became notorious for a string of bank robberies in the early '30s and developed this reputation as a folk hero during the Great Depression. So he destroyed loads of mortgage documents and other debt records during bank robberies. And because they only had the one physical copy, then he would essentially erase debts.
Jay:
Where's the Disney film and series of pantomimes about him?
Lizzy:
Yeah, I know, but it even says here stories of Floyd's altruism spread widely, contributing to a Robin Hood-style legend around him. So you literally even named the folklore hero that he is associated with.
Tom:
Thank you to Asher Stuhlman for this question. Patented in 1927, the Brannock Device is found in thousands of shops and still works in barleycorns. Almost everyone in developed countries has been on top of one, but hardly anyone owns one. What is it? I'll say that again. Patented in 1927, the Brannock Device is found in thousands of shops and still works in barleycorns. Almost everyone in developed countries has been on top of one, but hardly anyone owns one. What is it?
Jay:
Is it one of those little rides that goes— (mimics rumbling) With children in it.
Tom:
I'm— I'm sorry. One of— one of those little rides that does what, Jay?
Jay:
It goes— (mimics rumbling) You put your— you put your child in it and it looks like a plane and they sit there smiling and it goes— (mimics rumbling)
Tom:
Oh, yeah! It's the little ones you see outside supermarkets, weirdly. Yeah.
Jay:
Yeah. And it goes, like— sort of gently oscillates your child and they're happy.
Tom:
The child oscillator!
Mark:
And how does that work on barleycorns?
Jay:
Sort of juggles them about a bit.
SFX:
(group chuckling)
Jay:
Oh, it's not that, then. Alright.
Mark:
What's a barleycorn?
Jay:
What's a barleycorn? It's a— the thing that barley is made of. Bits of barley.
Mark:
Yeah.
Jay:
And—
Mark:
So it works on barleycorns.
Tom:
Mm-hmm. Uh, in barleycorns.
Mark:
Oh, in barleycorns!
Jay:
In barleycorns. Oh.
Mark:
And we've been on it. We've all been on it. And it's in— and it works in—
Tom:
You will almost certainly have been.
Mark:
Almost certainly have been on it. And it works in barleycorn.
Tom:
Yes.
Jay:
A barleycorn is a very specific thing.
Tom:
It is.
Jay:
That we've every one of us been on that it works in.
Tom:
Mhm.
Mark:
I know, yeah. There's a real series of—
Lizzy:
Ooh, oh! (stammering) Wait! Boom!
Tom:
Okay.
Lizzy:
You know what? Okay.
Tom:
Okay.
Lizzy:
What if it— is it— well, is the an— my question is, is it escalators? And then it is— can I ex— is it, like, barleycorns down—
Tom:
I'm gonna ask you to explain first.
Lizzy:
Okay. I imagined bits of a shop that I could put barleycorn in. Everything from the doors that go, like, open and close to, like, the heated curtain, and then I was like, "Ooh, what about escalators?" Because that's a good way to, like, separate barleycorns and I've been on one and lots of people have and it's an invention and it's in shops.
Tom:
It's such a lovely guess that fits almost all the clues apart from barleycorns.
Lizzy:
Oh.
Jay:
So it's not an escalator.
Tom:
It's not an escalator.
Jay:
Even though if you put barleycorns in the top of the escalator and it goes— (mimics clacking)
Lizzy:
Yes!
Jay:
The slicy-slicy bits.
Tom:
And you're right, Jay. A barleycorn is— is very specific.
Mark:
Is it small?
Tom:
A barleycorn is very small, yes.
Mark:
No, is the thing therefore small? A Brannock device can't be very small.
Jay:
Well, using physics, if a barleycorn is small, and the thing is in a barleycorn, the thing must be very, very small. That's physics.
Tom:
A Brannock Device is definitely bigger than a barleycorn.
Mark:
But it works in barleycorn.
Tom:
Mm. Yep.
Jay:
Is barleycorns a place?
Tom:
(laughs) No, no, no, it's not. But you're right that it is not a physical barleycorn.
Lizzy:
Ooh, other things that use in shops are... barcode scanners.
Tom:
That, I think, would be millions of shops. I think thousands is about the right number. At least for— at least for Britain, I'd say thousands is right.
Jay:
Alright, thousands, but not millions of shops have these?
Tom:
And you won't have been on a Brannock Device for a long time. Um, you'd have needed it once or twice a year as a kid. As an adult, very rarely.
Jay:
Is it one of those little things that measures how big your foot is for how big your shoe should be?
Tom:
Good heavens, Jay! Yes, it is!
Jay:
And, ah! You use it in barleycorns to measure how big the foot is of a barleycorn before you process it for the Cheerios. It's the same device.
Tom:
What might a barleycorn be in this context?
Jay:
Um, if you pick a pawpaw for a prickly pear, if it's the wrong size, it's not a barleycorn. And you need to measure it like—
Tom:
Size, Jay.
Jay:
Size.
Tom:
What's it trying to find out, Jay?
Jay:
How big your foot is in general.
Tom:
How big your foot is in—
Mark:
Length, width, height.
Tom:
Yep. What might the shoe size be based on?
Mark:
Barleycorn sizes.
Lizzy:
Oh, no way! Is that how many barleycorns?
Jay:
It works in barleycorns and that's why the sizes are what they are, because it's a unit of measurement.
Mark:
Interesting.
Tom:
The barleycorn is an obscure unit of measurement, uh, that is the basis for English-speaking shoe sizes. Uh, they've gone metric in a lot of the world, but the US, the UK, Canada, they use a system based in barleycorns. So the Brannock Device is that shoe measurement gauge that tells you how big your foot is.
Mark:
That's so good.
Tom:
A barleycorn is one-third of an inch. I do not know why it's called that, but one shoe size step in the English-speaking world is one barleycorn.
Jay:
Wow.
Tom:
And the Brannock Device is named after Charles Brannock, uh, who patented it in 1927.
Jay:
And it means I was sort of on the right lines with those kids sitting in the things that go (mimics rumbling) 'Cause they'd be outside the shoe shop.
Tom:
Mark, we will take your question, please.
Mark:
Cricket's famous 'Timeless Test' took place in March 1939. England reached 654 runs for five wickets, just 42 runs shy of the target set by their South African hosts. Why was the match declared a draw even though there was no time limit? Cricket's famous 'Timeless Test' took place in March 1939. England reached 654 runs for five wickets, just 42 runs shy of the target set by their South African hosts. Why was the match declared a draw even though there was no time limit?
Tom:
654 for five is a very big score. As I understand it. But, like, also, if it's for five, you've still got— is it five or six batsmen you've got left at that point, Mark?
Mark:
You got five wickets remaining.
Tom:
Five wickets remaining.
Mark:
Mm.
Tom:
Do— do we need to explain the rules of cricket for—
Mark:
I hope not!
SFX:
(group laughing)
Mark:
'Cause we could be here for a while! (laughs)
Lizzy:
I've never seen an episode of cricket. But I do know that the year 1939 is pretty pivotal in a few things. So I just wondered if they were like, "This is a really exciting—" and I'm sure it was very exciting for everyone involved as cricket always is. But maybe they were like, "This game's going really well. "I think there's a war on. Should we just— "we really should be— we really should be going to this— this whole war that started."
Mark:
Well, first of all, Lizzy, I will say, you do have to watch cricket again from the start.
Lizzy:
Oh, no!
Mark:
You have to— you have to go from the beginning with cricket. You can't join halfway.
Jay:
It gets really good after series 73.
Mark:
Yeah.
Tom:
So normally at this point England is chasing the target that's set by South Africa. They've got five wickets left. So they— someone can be— I'm trying to translate to other ball and bat sports here. Someone can be caught out or knocked out five more times before the game's over.
Mark:
Yeah, exactly.
Tom:
And England only needs 42 runs off five wickets, right?
Mark:
In a game with no time limit, they should be allowed to keep playing to try to get the runs or South Africa will try to get the remaining five wickets but this match has stopped before either of those things happened and we're trying to work out why.
Tom:
England are way ahead of target there, right? They've got five more wickets to go. They only need 42. They're probably gonna make that.
Mark:
They should— at the rate they've been going— get it.
Lizzy:
Unless there's World War II! And then that would stop a cricket match.
Tom:
Would it, though? Like, it's not gonna be like, "Oh, no! "All the cricketers are immediately drafted the day that war breaks out." I don't feel—
Jay:
He's just about to step up to bat and then, you know, all the players' phones go off and they say, uh, "Oh, it's World War II," so they abandon the match and then one of those old-fashioned— (mimics siren wailing)
Tom:
Siren goes off.
Jay:
No, it's not that. Is it— did they all die? 'Cause that would stop the match, if something had happened that killed them all before they could play their final remaining—
Tom:
It is a Timeless Test. So...
Lizzy:
Oh, yeah. Maybe they just played it over, like, thousands— not thousands! Thousands of days or, like, years, as some people call it. And then they—
Tom:
Or thousands of miles. If England are playing South Africa in the 1930s, that's not an easy journey.
Jay:
No, they're about to miss their flight home. So they have to abandon the match in order to fly home.
Tom:
Would that have been— yeah, it would have been flying.
Jay:
Even if it's— whether it's a flight or a very, very, very, very long journey on a boat, they still—
Tom:
I was gonna say, I think 1939 is too early for commercial aviation to South Africa. They might have been on a boat journey.
Mark:
So, look, guys, you're doing extremely well. To the point where I'd say you have essentially got it.
Jay:
Oh!
Mark:
Uh, because, uh, in the old days and at this period they didn't— they— test matches often had no scheduled end dates, yes. England were the visitors to South Africa and Jay, I'm gonna— I'm gonna say it is sewn up because they literally had to leave the field to catch their ship.
SFX:
(Tom and Mark gasp)
Mark:
It was a ship and not a flight. And they just couldn't get the last 42 runs which could have been just a few more balls of cricket. They had to run to get to the ship. So the Timeless Test was the fifth test— fifth usually the final in a series— of England's 1938-1939 tour of South Africa played in Durban and unlike modern tests it was scheduled to continue until a result was achieved with rest days inserted as needed. After nine days of play, South Africa set England a target of 696 and England were progressing strongly towards it. However, England's players had to travel home by ship on a fixed schedule. So the match was abandoned with England still 42 runs short of the target. The game was therefore recorded as a draw. It remains the only Timeless Test match that was ultimately abandoned for logistical reasons rather than reaching a result.
Jay:
Couldn't they on some sort of 100-year anniversary of this legendary match resume play? Not with the same players, obviously, but, you know, like—
Mark:
Well, that is— but that's the problem.
Tom:
Yeah. Yeah.
Jay:
Yeah. Thank you to Tom Sackett for this next question. When the Tacoma Narrows Bridge collapsed in 1940, an agent called Hallett R. French ended up in prison for 15 years, even though he had nothing to do with the bridge's design or construction. What crime did he commit before the disaster? I'll say that again. Having a stupid name.
Tom:
When the Tacoma Narrows Bridge collapsed in 1940, an agent called Hallett R. French ended up in prison for 15 years, even though he had nothing to do with the bridge's design or construction. What crime did he commit before the disaster?
Mark:
Did he load up his lorry too much and it was— he went through one of those signs that said, you know, 1.2 tons or whatever and went over it and absolutely shot the structure integrity of the thing?
Lizzy:
He's an agent, though.
Mark:
I know. An agent's weird, isn't it?
Lizzy:
So maybe he's avarice— I mean, he's not an acting agent so I imagine you mean, like, secret agent so, like, there must be something—
Mark:
Agent French. He sounds like something out of an Agatha Christie.
Jay:
(chuckles)
Lizzy:
Mm. But surely there was— is it— I wonder if it's to do with, like, information he got wrong or, like, didn't give.
Mark:
Mm.
Lizzy:
And it collapsed.
Jay:
But Tom, you said he had nothing to do with the design or construction of the bridge.
Tom:
No, nothing at all.
Jay:
Was he supposed to be to do with the rescue effort? And he was meant to do something to prevent death sort of?
Tom:
Not with the rescue effort. Actually, there didn't really need to be much of a rescue effort for this. You will almost certainly know of the Tacoma Narrows Bridge collapse in 1940.
Jay:
Is that the one with the famous clip where the bridge goes sort of twisty-twisty because it resonates perfectly with the wind which is a terrible idea for a bridge and it crumbles apart seemingly for no reason?
Tom:
Yes.
Jay:
And it's become a lesson for engineers all over.
Tom:
Yep, it's that galloping gertie bridge. If you've seen the clip – the old-time film clip – of a bridge wobbling and twisting and then collapsing, that was the Tacoma Narrows collapse.
Jay:
Is he the man on his own with his car and possibly also dog, if I'm thinking of the same clip, who refused to budge and made it difficult to be rescued?
Tom:
Uh, wouldn't be 15 years in jail for that.
Lizzy:
Why did it collapse? I guess we need to work out, like— was it a test?
Tom:
Oh, no, I can tell you that. It was... it wasn't designed well. Uh, it resonated... in the wind... twisted violently in strong winds, and the structure couldn't hold.
Lizzy:
Oh, so he was— oh, my god! He's not a weather agent, is he? He's like, "It's a lovely day here. Literally no wind." He, like—
Jay:
He was the Michael Fish of his day.
Mark:
50 years in jail, yeah. He did it again. Yeah. So, so cruel a meteorologist.
Tom:
He wasn't forecasting the weather but he had assumed the best.
Mark:
Ah, so his crime was before the bridge collapse rather than after the bridge collapse.
Tom:
Yes.
Jay:
What job would you have where it's your job to say whether or not the bridge would survive or not? Who— what kind of expert do you go to to say, "Wait a minute. This bridge looks like it's about to twist in the wind." Who do you go to? Who's the bridge twisty windy expert man? Whose negligence could result in a— a crime that's worth 15 years of jail?
Lizzy:
Now, check, just to give agents, like, traffic agent, like, and he's like, "You go right ahead on that thing. That's fine." Or like... What other, like, agent—
Jay:
That's true. He's an agent. That's a clue.
Mark:
(grunts)
Lizzy:
A travel agent. He's like, "I know this great bridge. You can have a holiday soon."
Tom:
Very slightly closer, Lizzy. He was arranging something. Or at least they thought he was arranging something.
Jay:
So he was going about his business of doing his other job as an agent, assumed everything would be fine, and in doing so— ah, here's a question. Did his crime cause the collapse of the bridge or make the impact of the collapse of the bridge worse, or did the bridge collapsing lead to them finding him and arresting him for something entirely unrelated?
Tom:
Jay, you're right. If the bridge hadn't have collapsed, he'd probably have gotten away with it.
Jay:
So he was trying to get— literally get away having done something but the cops caught him because he couldn't cross because the bridge had fallen down.
Tom:
Oh, no. He was nowhere near the bridge.
Jay:
But somebody else got away. Somebody else fair— ah! He had set up some kind of sting operation that involved somebody else far away getting over the bridge but because the bridge collapsed— which he couldn't have foreseen— he was demonstrated to have not done his job properly.
Tom:
Only the bit at the end. He definitely didn't do his job properly. He— he did his job in the worst possible way. Like, I don't think you could do your job worse than Hallett R. French.
Mark:
So is it a negligence thing, then?
Tom:
It's more than that. He was convicted of grand larceny.
Mark:
What does that mean?
Jay:
What does that mean?
Tom:
Uh, nick— nicking stuff. Uh, nicking a lot of stuff.
Lizzy:
Oh, did it revea— did it, like, reveal his stash of something— the bridge falling down? Were they like, "Hang on a minute?"
Mark:
Oh, his stash of steel rods that were meant to be in the bridge!
Tom:
Nothing to do with the design. Nothing to do with the construction.
Mark:
Oh, OK.
Lizzy:
Oh, right, yes. No, yeah, yeah. Oh, what did he do wrong?
Tom:
It was probably a few months after when someone found that out.
Jay:
Oh, it was when the bridge fell into the water that people afterwards had to then pick up the bits of dead bridge and then they also found lots of treasure chests full of loot.
Tom:
Kind of the opposite. They didn't find nearly as much as they wanted. It wasn't under the bridge that they were looking for it, either. Um, what other things would— would the government have had to do after the bridge collapses?
Mark:
Uh, rebuild a bridge.
Tom:
Yep.
Mark:
So all the bridge parts for the next bridge—
Tom:
How might they have afforded that?
Lizzy:
Oh, insurance.
Tom:
Insurance, Lizzy.
Lizzy:
So he didn't insure the bridge. It was literally his job to insure it, was it?
Mark:
Oh, no! Mr. French!
Tom:
So what might he have done instead?
Lizzy:
Took the money! He just took the money and didn't insure it and they were like, "Where's— where's our last big payout for that bridge falling in the river?" And he was like, "Ooh, sorry but I've been on a lot of holidays recently."
Jay:
Oh, that kind of agent! He was an insurance agent.
Tom:
An insurance agent.
Jay:
Ah!
Tom:
Washington State had purchased insurance policies on the bridge and Hallett R. French— an insurance agent— secretly kept about $8,000 in premiums that should have gone to the insurer. Because he's like, "The bridge is brand new. It won't fall down." When the bridge collapsed, the state lost out on a payout of what today would be about $18 million. He was convicted of grand larceny, he was sentenced to prison, uh, he actually served about two years before release for good behavior, and fortunately the state had taken out other insurance policies with other agents as well. Jay, we'll get your question, please.
Jay:
Uh, this question has been sent in by Kieren Bradley. In the 1890s, a barefoot man sat on a one-legged stool next to a vat, staring at the number 22 as if his life depended on it. Brown liquid cascaded nearby, and 70-foot grassy banks surrounded the buildings. What was happening here? That question again. In the 1890s, a barefoot man sat on a one-legged stool next to a vat, staring at the number 22 as if his life depended on it. Brown liquid cascaded nearby, and 70-foot grassy banks surrounded the buildings. What was happening here?
Tom:
There's so much in that question!
Mark:
The one-legged stool is the key feature for me. What— What is going on? Can it not be two-legged? Can it not be three-legged?
Tom:
No, it can't. I can answer that one. A one-legged stool is what you sit someone on if they cannot fall asleep. It's like the cheapest deadman switch possible.
Lizzy:
Yes.
Tom:
Because if they fall asleep they'll fall off it and they'll wake up.
Mark:
So he's doing an important job looking at what was a vat numbered— a vat with 22 written on it.
Tom:
Yes. As if his life depends on it, which it probably does.
Mark:
In the 1890s, brown liquid. So it's the manufacturer of something, surely. There's hills—
Jay:
Um, so, something you're wrong about is that the number 22 is not on the vat itself. He's staring at the number 22 but it is not on the vat. And by the way, Tom, you're absolutely right. It is the one-legged stool is to stop him falling asleep. Why does he need to be kept awake?
Lizzy:
To make sure it doesn't reach 23.
Jay:
What happens if it reaches 23?
Lizzy:
So is 22 the temperature? So I'm ju— I don't know. I'm just guessing, but, like, that's kind of a nice temperature for outside. So is he, like, monitoring the temperature something— to make sure it doesn't hit 23?
Jay:
Ooh, yes. It is. He is monitoring the temperature. He wants it to stay— is it above or below 22?
Tom:
And also, is that Celsius or Fahrenheit?
Mark:
Fahrenheit, yeah, 'cause is it gonna freeze? Is something gonna freeze if it goes to 21?
Jay:
Uh, it's Celsius. And centigrade.
Lizzy:
Is— I guess maybe... he's staring at a vat that, like, the temperature needs to remain constant. Is it beer? Is that the brown liquid? It's not, like, a beer vat, is it?
Jay:
No, it's not beer. We're dealing with a relatively new invention.
Mark:
OK, so it's not gunpowder.
Jay:
Oh!
Mark:
It is gunpowder.
Tom:
Well, it could be something— it could be something explosive.
Mark:
Yeah.
Jay:
You're extraordinarily close with the explosive.
Tom:
Oh, and that's why you have the 70-foot grassy banks. Those are to contain an explosion that happens.
Jay:
You're so, so, so close. What do you think the brown liquid is?
Mark:
Whatever goes into dynamite.
Jay:
Yes, dynamite. So the answer is it was the manufacturer of nitroglycerine used in dynamite.
Tom:
Wow!
Jay:
So nitroglycerine was manufactured at Alfred Nobel's explosive works at Ardeer, Scotland from the 1870s. The nitration process was strongly exothermic so operators had to keep it constantly below 22 degrees Celsius during manufacture. If it got too hot, the man would open a valve to release the liquid into a tank down the hill. The one-legged stool was to stop the operator falling asleep. Well done, Tom. And the worker went barefoot or they used overshoes to eliminate friction from their usual shoes.
Tom:
Huh!
Jay:
And it also says the factory's nitroglycerine houses were built amongst a large protective earth works designed to absorb blasts in the event of an explosion. So yes, that's why the grassy banks, that's why 22 degrees, that's why brown liquid. Well done.
Tom:
Which means we just have the question from the top of the show. Thank you to Jordan Cook-Irwin. Why might you use the words 'vibex,' 'waltz,' 'nymph,' 'fjord,' and 'gucks' once a day? Any quick guesses from the panel?
Lizzy:
It's like— it's not like, um, microphone testing or something, is it?
Jay:
Is it 'cause they're all just really fun to say?
Tom:
there's a reason you might use them for testing and the reason they're really fun to say.
Jay:
It's not that they all use every available part of the mouth. It's not that.
Tom:
You are so close with every part of the mouth. That is such a wonderful linguistics answer. And— think less linguisticly here. Think less linguistic student here.
Jay:
Is it a word that your dentist might tell you to say? To make sure that there's no part of your mouth that's injured? Covering all the bases.
Tom:
Once a day?
Jay:
Well, if you're the dentist, yeah.
Tom:
(laughs)
Jay:
If you say it once a— so— wait, do you have to say all of these words once per day?
Tom:
I said "use" the words.
Jay:
Oh.
Lizzy:
Oh. It's not a chart, is it? An eye-reading chart?
Tom:
No.
Lizzy:
That's, like, top to bottom or something.
Tom:
Again, what— you wouldn't use that once a day. Not everyone's gonna use this once a day but I guarantee that listeners of Lateral are more likely to be... I mean, they probably use different words but these— these words would be important to some of them.
Mark:
Scrabble. The best Scrabble players.
Tom:
That's closer, Mark. Why— and again, why are you thinking that?
Mark:
Because they've— they're unusual letters.
Tom:
They are.
Mark:
Xs, Zs, Ws.
Tom:
Yep.
Mark:
Vs.
Tom:
All sorts of letters in there.
Mark:
High scorers.
Tom:
Yep.
Jay:
And if you don't type those words on your keyboard at least once a day, your X key is gonna get all dusty from not being used.
SFX:
(group chuckling)
Tom:
You have identified that these words all have a lot of different letters in them.
Lizzy:
Oh, is it every letter?
Tom:
Nearly. It's five five-letter words.
Jay:
Oh! Are they all the worst possible start to Wordle?
Tom:
(laughs) Jay, that is close enough. That is some people's strategy for playing Wordle. Uh, why?
Jay:
Because those words will use up all of the available consonants and vowels as efficiently as possible so that by your sixth guess you should surely have the answer.
Tom:
Yes, absolutely right. Vibex, waltz, nymph, fjord, and gucks. That is 25 of the 26 letters of the alphabet, so from there you should know all the letters in your Wordle answer. It's actually a really bad strategy, uh, because there are plenty of words that are anagrams of each other.
Jay:
It'll give you lots of yellow squares which is useless.
Tom:
Yes and you will always require six guesses, which is not— unless you're very lucky and waltz happens to be the word that they've chosen. But that is some people's Wordle strategy. Thank you very much to our players. Where can people find you? What's going on? We will start with Mark.
Mark:
Oh, well, uh, Jay and I make Map Men videos on YouTube so you can always check us out at, uh— well, the channel's called JayAndMark and, uh, there's quite regularly new content there.
Tom:
Jay!
Jay:
Uh, you can find us not only on YouTube but we're also on TikTok sometimes. Uh, just use— Google "Map Men" and you'll find our stuff.
Tom:
And Lizzy.
Lizzy:
Um, I doing lots of performing with Murder, She Didn't Write in theatres across the country. Um, Google us and find out which one is near you!
Tom:
And if you wanna know more about this show you can do that at lateralcast.com where you can also send in your own ideas for questions or join the Lateral Producer's Club. We are @lateralcast basically everywhere and there are full video episodes every week on Spotify. Thank you very much to Lizzy Skrzypiec.
Lizzy:
Thank you! Goodbye!
Tom:
Jay Foreman.
Jay:
Thank you. Goodbye.
Tom:
Mark Cooper-Jones.
Mark:
It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you.
Tom:
I've been Tom Scott, and that's been Lateral.
Episode Credits
| HOST | Tom Scott |
| QUESTION PRODUCER | David Bodycombe |
| EDITED BY | Julie Hassett at The Podcast Studios, Dublin |
| MUSIC | Karl-Ola Kjellholm ('Private Detective'/'Agrumes', courtesy of epidemicsound.com) |
| ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS | Jordan Cook-Irwin, RedCree, Kieren Bradley, Kelby Hackett, Tom Sackett, Asher Stuhlman |
| FORMAT | Pad 26 Limited/Labyrinth Games Ltd |
| EXECUTIVE PRODUCERS | David Bodycombe and Tom Scott |