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Episode 197: Jumping in the fountain
17th July, 2026 • Rosalie Minnitt, Verity Babbs and Bob Hagh face questions about hip hairstyles, tiled tunnels and mobile mending.
Transcription by Caption+
Tom:
What kind of hairstyle is a tellum?
The answer to that at the end of the show. My name's Tom Scott, and this is Lateral.
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Inside today's unit are three guest components pre-installed and ready for operation. First, welcome back to the show, someone who runs comedy nights in art museums and the author of The History of Art in One Sentence, Verity Babbs.
Verity:
Hello! Thanks for having me again.
Tom:
Welcome back. Do tell us about the book. 'Cause I mentioned The History of Art in One Sentence. I assume the book is longer than one sentence.
Verity:
They did make me do more than one, annoyingly.
Tom:
(laughs)
Verity:
That wasn't the pitch. So it's 50 art movements over the last 500 years, and 10 questions in each, each answered in a sentence. So the idea would be, you could sort of browse through it and get a good sense for, roughly, who are the Impressionists and, you know, who, you know, what is pop art about? But with some sort of fun and hopefully funny facts in there as well.
Tom:
Obviously, you have the big hitters of the art movements in there, but was there a cutoff point? Like I think we can get 50, and then it start— then we start having to pick and choose.
Verity:
Yeah, I was like, I think we can get 40, and 10 of them
Tom:
Oh.
Verity:
are gonna be—
SFX:
(both laughing)
Verity:
But we just about got them together. Some of them are— Some of them had sort of zanier characters than others, which meant that it was very easy to find the fun facts. Some of them less of a barrel of laughs, but we cobbled it together in the end.
Tom:
And the gigs are going well?
Verity:
Yeah. So Art Laughs, the art-themed comedy nights I run, we do those in different museums and galleries. And they are always good fun, and and hopefully make art feel a little bit less scary.
Tom:
(chuckles)
Verity:
So no, all well.
Tom:
I've just checked through the questions in front of me, and I have zero art questions here, but perhaps you do. We shall find out shortly. Very best of luck on the show today.
We are joined by another returning player and another comedian. Welcome back, Rosalie Minnitt.
Rosalie:
Hello! Thank you so much for having me.
Tom:
It was your first episode last time you were on the show. How did you feel? How was it?
Rosalie:
I— look, I realised that I'm not very good at thinking laterally, and that should've been in the name.
Tom:
Eh, I think you did okay.
Rosalie:
(laughs) I think there's something quite... Yeah, like I think I love a quiz, and it stresses me out that there isn't really a pinpoint right answer.
Tom:
Yeah.
Rosalie:
And as a perfectionist, I struggle with that.
Tom:
Oh, and you're taking a show to the Fringe soon. That's gotta be difficult for a perfectionist.
Rosalie:
Yeah, it's— it does. It gets in your— It gets— I think— I feel like there's gotta be something wrong with anyone that does comedy, to be honest.
SFX:
(Tom and Verity laugh)
Rosalie:
But I think, yeah, having— being a com— a perfectionist with joke writing is very difficult, because you cannot really get 10 out of 10 from an audience, ever.
Tom:
I know we're recording this early, but as this show comes out, the Fringe is about to happen, so please plug when and where you are. What's the show?
Rosalie:
So, I'll be doing my second show in Edinburgh Fringe. It'll be called Clementine 2, in some capacity. And it'll be another, chapter two of her wild escapades. And yeah, it'll be a lot of fun I hope. And yeah, it'll be a lot of fun I hope. I'm truly sort of still writing it.
SFX:
(group chuckling)
Tom:
Good luck with both the writing and the show today.
Our third player today: from BuzzerBlog, from the 24-Hour Game Show Marathon, from Twitch, I don't know how else to describe you. Bob Hagh, welcome back.
Bob:
Not a comedian.
SFX:
(Bob and Tom laugh)
Bob:
And I don't know why I keep coming back here, Tom.
Tom:
And yet, hosting a 24-hour game show!
Bob:
Yeah.
Tom:
Also, we didn't talk about Twitch last time, 'cause we were too busy with the marathon. Tell me about what you're doing there.
Bob:
Yeah, so, my Twitch stream, I do a lot of Pokémon games on there. I also have a game show vibe where I sometimes give out my own money to random Twitch people coming on stream. It's a lot of fun to do, but I really enjoy that because I'm all about live entertainment, live television. I've been a big live TV fan growing up, so I love being in the moment with an audience, kinda have a little fun, and give people a chance to kinda unwind after a busy day, laugh a little bit, and watch me catch cute little monsters when doing it.
Tom:
I'm so used to scripted and edited. Live scares the hell out of me. How long did it take you to go from "I don't know what I'm doing here" to, "Oh, I got this"?
Bob:
You know, it's just the more you do it, the more you feel comfortable. Like I've been on television shows before, and I feel like live streaming is much more stressful than that. I know it's a weird thing to say. But I think once you get comfortable with who you are, your element, and you embrace failure, and you just, you know, pick up where you left off and just do better each time, you enjoy it more. So I kinda like perfecting that craft and having a good time and enjoy the journey with doing live events.
Tom:
Well, good luck to you on this absolutely 100% live, not edited in any way, episode of Lateral.
Our curiosity system is fully initialised. Let's activate question one.
Thank you to Isabel McCracken for this question.
When driving through Boston's O'Neill Tunnel, you often see rows of tiles that are either blue or brown. What are they there for?
I'll say that again.
When driving through Boston's O'Neill Tunnel, you often see rows of tiles that are either blue or brown. What are they there for?
Bob:
I'll preface this and say... I'm probably gonna sit this one out, because I've driven this tunnel many times, and I've kind of learned on TikTok what this is, so...
Tom:
Alright.
Bob:
I'm gonna take a step back.
Tom:
It's gonna be on Rosalie and Verity.
Verity:
Right, let's do this.
Rosalie:
Right, let's see—
Verity:
Let's get seriously.
Rosalie:
Verity, lock in! Yeah.
SFX:
(both laughing)
Verity:
So they— The— My assumption is that they are— they represent different things, if there's a reason why it's important that they're blue and brown, rather than just, like, it's like a checkerboard pattern or something. So...
Rosalie:
It could be, like... a combination of those two colours is there to keep you awake. I feel like that's a bit of a kind of odd take on it?
Verity:
No, I...
SFX:
(both laughing)
Verity:
The '70s nostalgia colour combo...
Rosalie:
Yeah. (laughs)
SFX:
(Bob and Tom laugh in turn)
Verity:
Makes you wanna carry on living.
Rosalie:
Yeah, it's—
Tom:
I'll tell you what. There are tunnels where that happens. I wouldn't normally come in on a suggestion like this, but I want to throw a tunnel fact into this, which is that...
Bob:
Yeah!
Tom:
One of the longest road tunnels, which I think it's the Lærdal Tunnel, I think Norway, it's somewhere up in Scandinavia, is so long that it deliberately has little lay-bys with interesting illumination in, so that if you have so much tunnel that you're starting to get a bit hypnotised... you can just get out your car, have a quick wander 'round, recuperate before keeping going.
Bob:
Oh, wow.
Rosalie:
Oh?
Verity:
That's fun.
Rosalie:
That's so cool.
Tom:
And I mention that partly to drop a tunnel fact, and partly to say, sorry, no.
SFX:
(Tom and Rosalie laugh)
Verity:
Where is this again, Tom?
Tom:
I'm gonna let Bob answer that question.
Bob:
So, it is in Boston. Boston, Massachusetts.
Verity:
Is it— But is it kind of, you go in o— you go into Boston, and you come out in... Milwaukee?
Tom:
Bob, if I remember, you're vaguely near Boston. Do you remember the Big Dig?
Bob:
Vaguely, yeah. So, I can travel in that vicinity when I'm going to Logan Airport, 'cause I fly out of Logan Airport a lot. So I would have to kind of go in this area where the major h— a major highway system is. So it is... definitely a well-traveled area, because it is right in the core of Boston. You have a lot of other streets, a lot of other highway systems coming and combining into this area.
Verity:
But it's not like... one end of the tunnel is in one place, and the other is in, like... if you're in the blue zone, you're in Boston, and if you're in the brown zone, you're in New York State? Is that nearby?
Tom:
(laughs)
Bob:
No. No, no, no. But I will say, it is... and I hope I don't give too much away from this, but I think the Big Dig is one of the most expansive or costly projects that we have done in the States.
Tom:
Absolutely, yes.
Bob:
Yeah.
Rosalie:
Oh my god, this is— I think, Tom, you're gonna hate this suggestion as well, but maybe it's like, you can buy theatre seats, and they're, like, sponsored tiles. People bought them, and they helped pay for the Big Dig, question mark?
Tom:
Honestly, not a bad shout. And also, I'm not gonna hate any suggestion that comes out here.
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Tom:
I dislike one that's personally insulting, but I'm never gonna, you know, turn down someone throwing an idea out there.
Verity:
In between takes, Tom is saying discouraging things to us about our suggestions.
SFX:
(Tom and Rosalie laugh)
Verity:
They'll never make air, but...
Tom:
What do you mean? This is an entirely live episode(!)
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Tom:
I think you're all seeing this as a checkerboard pattern or a mixture of brown and blue tiles, and it's not. The tiles are either blue in a section or brown in a section. And it's not just the O'Neill Tunnel. This is through a lot of the Big Dig and this whole network that got built.
Verity:
Were two different tilers racing? Was it like, "I'll start at one end with brown, and you start one end with blue"?
SFX:
(others laughing)
Verity:
And it's like... to encourage them to go fast, like...
Tom:
Or they get paid by the kilometre, and they just wanna get to that side first. "We're logging this with our bricks."
Verity:
Is it about what you can do in the tunnel? Is it like once you're in the... once you're in the brown zone, you can go 100 miles an hour?
SFX:
(group guffawing)
Bob:
The brown zone, I love it!
Tom:
The brown zone. Would the brown zone, 100 mile an hour in a Big Dig tunnel.
Bob:
(cackles)
Tom:
Have a think about Boston's geography.
Rosalie:
Near the sea.
Tom:
It is.
Rosalie:
It's all I've got.
Tom:
Eh, no, it is.
Verity:
Is blue underwater and brown underearth?
Rosalie:
Is ground? Yeah.
Tom:
Yes.
Verity:
Oh.
Tom:
Yes, it is.
Rosalie:
Ohhh.
Verity:
(laughs)
Tom:
Yes, brown tiles on the walls of some of the tunnels mean you're underground. Blue tiles mean you're underwater. That is not just there as a fancy thing. And I'm gonna let Bob come in here. Do you know why that might be?
Bob:
I feel like it's for also, I think, the workers of the tunnel to, you know, be aware of where they are at any given time. 'Cause I know if you're underwater, and you're doing some service work on the tunnels, you also need to have specialized exits or points where you need to possibly evacuate or move or things like that. But I really think it's meant a lot for just knowing where you are at a given time if you're doing work on the tunnel.
Tom:
More, I think, for drivers rather than workers, but yes, for orientation certainly. As you are driving through these many long tunnels in Boston, if you know the above-ground geography, you can actually help track where you are by looking at the blue tiles for underwater or the brown tiles for underground.
We will go to our first guest question. Rosalie, whenever you're ready.
Rosalie:
Lovely, thank you so much.
So, this question has been sent in by Lily.
Lily is in her mid-20s. Recently, she took part in a 1959 horror film, exactly as its director intended, even though he died in 1977. How?
I'll say that again.
Lily is in her mid-20s. Recently, she took part in a 1959 horror film, exactly as its director intended, even though he died in 1977. How?
Bob:
So the question is, what film, what horror films were... Was this like a— I would think a major theatrical film that was out there in— around that time. So I'm trying to think of what films were out. Like, was Psycho 19— I'm trying to think when Psycho came out. Think it was a little later, I think, past 1959.
Verity:
Has she just done a murder, and thought that the film was instructional?
SFX:
(others laugh heartily)
Verity:
And then it's like participation.
Rosalie:
And that's exactly as the director intended.
Verity:
Yeah.
Tom:
The title is How to Get Away with Murder.
Verity:
Yeah.
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Tom:
And she has, in fact, got away with murder.
Rosalie:
I like your thinking, and I kind of wish that was the answer, but sadly, no.
Tom:
Mid-20s is specific, isn't it? Why is her age important?
Bob:
Mid-20s.
Tom:
I remember reading an article about a horror director, who was the king of gimmick horror movies, and I think that's around late '50s, early '60s. Just as television was starting to come in, and theatre audiences were declining. He was trying to bring in just weird stuff.
The name that comes to mind is The Tingler, which was a movie he came up with, with a— that said something like, "The Tingler is loose in this theatre, ladies and gentlemen!" And then he'd gimmick the seats in the theatres, or get the ushers to turn off the lights at the right moment or scare people. He had one where there was a vote in the audience. He would hold up a panel to see whether the murderer would escape justice or not. And it was all obviously prerecorded. They always voted to condemn the murderer. Of course they did.
But he had a load of gimmicks, and I'm wondering, like, "as the director intended", I'm wondering if this is that guy and one of his horror gimmicks.
Rosalie:
You are very, very close. You are pretty much bang on, but—
Tom:
Yeah, the trouble is I don't know what the gimmick is and why it would— why it would matter that it's her mid-20s.
Rosalie:
I think the... Don't worry about mid-20s. Maybe focus in on the 'took part' in a 1959 horror film.
Verity:
It's too early for... or massively too early for something like Rocky Horror Picture Show where it's like she's...
Bob:
Yeah.
Verity:
got her kit off in the cinema, and that's as intended.
Tom:
(snickers)
Bob:
Was— Taking part, was this like a— I'm trying to think. How major of a part did she take in with this? Was it just something that was just... small enough, under the radar? Was— Did it have a big impact on this? If it's a horror film, was it like, you know, was she the one who got murdered in the film? (giggles)
Tom:
(laughs)
Verity:
Or like that film Boyhood, where they record them every year being a boy. I don't really know what the film's about, but that thing of, you know, they're making a remake of Merrily We Roll Along, where they're doing it over the course of 40 years. Is it like, part eight coming in 2026 with new actresses?
Rosalie:
I wish it was a horror Boyhood that had been started in...
SFX:
(group laughs in turn)
Rosalie:
in 1959 that we just haven't heard about. And Lily is now 107.
Verity:
Yeah. (laughs)
Bob:
(guffaws)
Tom:
Maybe the gimmick is you're meant to scream back at the screen, like that's how you def— That's how the audience defeats the monster. You must scream as loud as possible to defeat them, like...
Verity:
Like a horror pantomime. It's like, "Oh, he's behind you!"
Tom:
That's basically what these were. And little bits of this article are coming back to me, like he offered a coward's exit in one film, where if you were too scared, then you would be given the opportunity to run out and get a refund. But you would have to take the coward's exit. There were all sorts of things like that.
Rosalie:
I would say... as a sort of suggestion that might help you along the way, the audience is at one point meant to think that something's gone wrong.
Bob:
So, they're sitting down watching the film, correct?
Rosalie:
Yeah.
Bob:
That's what I'm getting. They're watching the film. Does the film just suddenly stop, and does something happen, where... it just— chaos ensues, there's a technical issue, and then the audience is just sitting there figuring out what's going on next. The lights come up. Or maybe the lights stay down, who knows. And then you hear the bloody murder being screamed somewhere else, and then the lights come back on, and then you see someone missing. Is that what's happening?
Rosalie:
Yeah, that's it. I mean, you, literally basically all together Tom and Bob...
Tom:
(laughs)
Rosalie:
pretty much got it as we went. So it is that film that you said, Tom, The Tingler, and near the climax—
Tom:
It is The Tingler!
Bob:
Wow!
Rosalie:
It is The Tingler. The creature is set to escape into the cinema. The screen goes dark, and the house lights come on while a planted performer in the audience screams and pretends to faint, as if attacked. During the original release—
Tom:
That's the bit I couldn't remember!
Rosalie:
This is the bit. The moment was accompanied by a vibrating device attached to some seats. And revival screenings sometimes recreate the stunt with actors in the audience. Other gimmicks included a break when people could leave the film, which is what you said, and get their money back.
Tom:
Yep.
Bob:
Oh, wow.
Rosalie:
A poll on whether the film should've— should have nice ending or a tragic ending, and a skeleton flying over the audience. And I will say, these are giving me—
Tom:
Wow!
Rosalie:
some great inspiration for my Edinburgh Fringe show.
SFX:
(Rosalie and Verity giggle)
Tom:
What's the guy's name?
Rosalie:
He's called director William Castle.
Tom:
William Castle, that was it!
Rosalie:
And William Castle would absolutely eat in the Edinburgh Fringe. Like these gimmicks—
Tom:
Oh, yeah!
Rosalie:
He would... absolutely take over Pleasance Courtyard, no doubt about it.
Tom:
Yep.
Rosalie:
My guy would be in all of the top shows to see at Fringe. (giggles)
Tom:
(chuckles)
Rosalie:
Yeah, that— So that's why. But so she took part, sort of after the fact. The director intended to have a live performer in the room as well.
Verity:
There should definitely still be a coward's exit for any film to be like, "I just need to get out of Wuthering Heights right now."
Rosalie:
Yes. Yes!
Bob:
(laughs heartily)
Verity:
I'm walking.
SFX:
(guests giggling)
Tom:
Thank you to Kyle Chapman for this question.
Jeff often jumped into a fountain before walking into a hotel. Why?
And one more time.
Jeff often jumped into a fountain before walking into a hotel. Why?
Bob:
I don't think Jeff's a human.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Bob:
If I know Lateral, Jeff is probably a bird.
Tom:
(laughs heartily)
Verity:
My instinct is that the hotel hosts a lot of hen dos, and Jeff is a Colin Firth in Pride and Prejudice lookalike.
SFX:
(Tom and Bob laugh)
Rosalie:
Yes!
Verity:
And he has to get wet before going to perform.
Tom:
(trails off laughing)
Rosalie:
That's great. My guess is that there's a... there's some kind of... If— I mean, if it's— It suggests that he doesn't always have to do it, but that sometimes he does it, which maybe, Jeff is a known quantity at these hotels, and it's like the thing that Jeff does, and they all think he's hilarious for it. It's just Jeff's thing.
SFX:
(group chuckles in turn)
Tom:
It is... It is definitely one of Jeff's things.
Bob:
Ohh?
Tom:
But I don't think the hotel would approve.
Bob:
Oh, see, I thought Jeff was like an employee of the hotel trying to clean it up or something. Like, if people are throwing coins in the fountain, and he's collecting the coins and bringing it back into the hotel, but... The hotel is s— So the hotel does not like what Jeff does?
Tom:
If they knew who he was, they wouldn't want him there.
Bob:
Oh.
Rosalie:
Oh. Is he— Is he always— Is he like a murderer, and he's gotta clean himself in the fountain before he gets to the hotel?
SFX:
(group belly laughs)
Rosalie:
He's just come back from a screening, and he's the live actor.
Verity:
Is this— Is the fountain special in some way? Is it like one of those springs that are meant to be, you know, the goddess of whatever?
Rosalie:
Ooh, yeah.
Verity:
And he's dipping himself in for luck or for prosperity or...
Rosalie:
Luck? (giggles)
Tom:
(laughs)
Rosalie:
He's dousing himself.
Verity:
"I hope I get a room."
SFX:
(group chuckling)
Tom:
Oh, the fountain of hotel room.
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Tom:
So, not really.
Rosalie:
(giggles)
Tom:
But... there is a certain amount of... maybe luck involved, yeah.
Rosalie:
Does he do it in front— He does it for every hotel, or is it just one hotel?
Tom:
Just some hotels sometimes.
Bob:
Just some hotels.
Verity:
So, he thinks it might do him some good to do this?
Tom:
Yeah. Yeah. I think he's definitely benefiting from it.
Bob:
It's not... (wheezes) It's not like the... the hypothetical fountain of youth.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Bob:
He's trying to take a shower, and like, "I wanna be 10 years younger." But what benefit do you— Unless the benefit is you go into a hotel and kids eat free, and then maybe you get a free meal or something. I don't know.
Tom:
Okay, so Bob, you said a couple things there.
Bob:
Okay?
Tom:
He's not trying to get a free meal... but there's something like that going on.
Verity:
Is he trying to already be wet by the time he comes into the hotel room, to pretend he was already at the spa?
Tom:
Yes, he is, Verity!
Verity:
Yes!
Bob:
Oh my god!
Rosalie:
Ohhh!
Verity:
And I'm gonna use that later.
SFX:
(Verity and Rosalie laugh)
Tom:
Jeff would wear a bathing costume, then throw himself into a nearby fountain, then walk into the hotel lobby dripping wet. Hotel staff would assume that he'd just come from the pool, and didn't challenge him when he then went into the spa.
Jeff here is the urban explorer Jeff Chapman, otherwise known as Ninjalicious. He was a pioneer in urban exploration.
He's also credited with the invention of the term "credibility prop". Does anyone wanna take a guess at what that means?
Verity:
So I guess, is the being wet a credibility prop, to be like, "Well, obviously I was in the spa, otherwise why would I be wet?"
Tom:
Yep.
Bob:
Hmm.
Tom:
Might be some other things that could help with that. Not necessarily for going to the spa, but for getting into anything.
Verity:
Oh, like when people buy hi-vis jackets to go to festivals.
Tom:
Yep. Hi-vis jacket, clipboard. If you're in England, a tray of mugs of tea might open a lot of doors for you. Jeff also maintained a blog going into various fountains around the world. And thank you very much. Kyle Chapman sent this question in. Kyle is Jeff's brother. And, Jeff passed away in 2005, aged 31, and is still known as one of the early urban explorers.
Rosalie:
Wow, that's so cool.
Verity:
Good on you, Jeff.
Bob:
Thank you, Jeff.
Rosalie:
Yeah, thanks for that tip, Jeff.
Verity:
Yeah, let's all keep— we all gotta keep that alive.
Rosalie:
Be using that, yeah.
Bob:
(giggles)
Tom:
Bob, we'll take your question please.
Bob:
Awesome.
This question has been sent in from Zubin Nair-Haider.
Why do many children in India and Pakistan struggle to count past 20 in their native languages?
I'll say that one more time.
Why do many children in India and Pakistan struggle to count past 20 in their native languages?
Verity:
Like, it must be hard for French children saying like, the number 90, 'cause it's like saying four 20s and a 10 and a 5, or is it very— is it just, like, actually a bit of a mouthful?
Tom:
My favourite one of those is, I think it's Denmark, where... apologies, Denmark, I'm gonna mangle this, but eight— the number's like... 70 is 3 1/2 20s. Or, it might be, like, 4 minus 1/2 20s.
Verity:
Mm.
Tom:
Or, it's—
Bob:
Wow.
Tom:
It's not how someone actually thinks. You just hear the syllables, and your brain goes, "Oh, that's 70." But the word comes from 4 minus 1/2 20s.
Verity:
Mm.
Rosalie:
Is there something for... Can I get a wording check on the question? Is it past, they're not able to count past 20, or to 20?
Bob:
Yeah, so the question says, they struggle to count past 20.
Tom:
Okay, I'm gonna go for the obvious answer. There are a lot of languages in India and Pakistan. Maybe some of them don't have words for numbers past 20, 'cause some languages have limited number words.
Rosalie:
Yeah.
Tom:
That doesn't seem lateral to me.
Bob:
No, no, I don't think that's what we're looking for here, no.
Verity:
Hmm.
Bob:
And going back to your point, Tom, when you were talking about with Denmark and the numbers, you really don't have to worry about any type of mathematics here. So you don't have to worry about, like...
SFX:
(Tom and Bob chuckle)
Bob:
What is 3/4 of this number, then added to this one? No math is required for this test.
Rosalie:
Is it that their numerical system is different in some capacity, or that it doesn't include that kind of... I know that there is, there are some communities or languages where they don't have words for certain things. Like, they don't have words for certain colours, and therefore, that colour does not exist to them, which is quite interesting. Or like money, they don't have money, so they don't have a word for money.
Tom:
My linguistics brain is alr— is just going, "Well, technically it doesn't work though—" No, I'm gonna...
SFX:
(Rosalie and Bob laugh)
Tom:
The pedant in me shut down.
Verity:
Is it not linguistic? Is it that actually... it's like a num— it's a counting system that's, like, digital? Like, it's...
Tom:
Ooh.
Verity:
'Cause you can— People can do— You see these maths genius children doing counting on their fingers. Is it—
Tom:
Well, I mean, you've got 10 fingers and 10 toes. But oth—
Verity:
Yeah.
Tom:
Other countries do not have the problem with kids going, "I've run out of digits."
Verity:
Mm.
Bob:
Mm.
Tom:
I'm gonna have trouble counting now.
Bob:
I will say, I know we were talking about kids a lot, but it's not just kids who have this issue. It could also be adults that have a similar... a difficulty with getting past 20.
Verity:
Is it 'cause you ha— you so rarely have to count above 20? It's like, what— It's difficult, 'cause why am I doing this? This is like, why am I bothering doing this?
Rosalie:
Is it that it's bad luck?
Verity:
Ooh.
Tom:
Mm.
Rosalie:
Spiritual thing? I don't know whether it c— is it that like, you know, don't go to the 7th floor kind of thing?
Bob:
It's not, no. I will say, as English speakers, we don't really have this problem.
Tom:
Okay. Our words for tens are based on our words for the units. Not perfectly, but you have 30 is three, 40 is four, 50 is five, and so on. Maybe there's a disconnect between those two, and you have to learn not just the words for one through nine, but also the words for 10 through 90?
Bob:
You're getting there, yeah. You, yeah, it's... You're on the right track with that, Tom.
Tom:
Okay, I'm just gonna share my favourite counting system, 'cause I'm enthusiastic about it. There is an old sheep-counting system in the north of England, where one, two, three is yan, tan, tethera. And there's just these wonderful words, and it's just this... it's got this wonderful flow to it. But also, you can walk five miles and find a different variant of the same system. Because it's from so long ago, that it was essentially like local accent, local dialect, and just this– It— The numeral system is this beautiful flowing thing. But it repeats in interesting ways that do not necessarily make sense to an English speaker. It's difficult to remember for us. So...
Bob:
Okay. You said something clever there. Difficult to remember.
Tom:
Difficult to remember.
Bob:
So, memory is a big issue here. So, going up to 20 is fine. It's past 20 where it becomes much more difficult, and that's where the memory challenge can really kick in to figure out a number past 20.
Rosalie:
Is it 'cause of the actual notation of what they use, like the numerals? They can't remember what the icon is, or that they use different... I guess, I don't know what you'd call that, but in s— like we use numbers, but they don't use numbers. Is that it?
Bob:
Correct. So yeah. So what you're using up to 20 is working, but then past 20, it's completely different, but why is that?
Rosalie:
'Cause you've run out of hands and toes.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Rosalie:
Because they have maybe something different for 1 to 20. They've got 20 things, but they don't have anything past that.
Bob:
That's right on the cusp.
Rosalie:
That it, yes?
Tom:
(laughs)
Bob:
So yeah. So in many South Asian languages, like a Hindu, Urdu, you know, the numbers above 20 have something different, versus the numbers before 20 have something different. So wh— you know, So yeah, everything from like Rosalie, what you were just saying, you know, Verity and Tom, you're all dancing around this, but we're looking for the exact reason why after 20, something is different.
Tom:
Is there a different word for every number?
Bob:
That's what it is. Yeah. Different wording, different names for the words after 20. Correct. So...
Tom:
What?
Bob:
Leading up to 1 to 20, you can kind of familiarize yourself with a pattern, espe— like, the teens, like you know, in English. But past 20, all the numbers have unique names up to 100.
Tom:
Ohhh, wow!
Bob:
So between 20 and 100, you have unique names for every single number. So 21 and 22, that's how we say it. No, it's completely different names.
So, learners have to memorize many individual words rather than applying a simple rule. So many children in India and Pakistan learn English numbers at school alongside their native languages, and they find the English system easier for the higher numbers.
Now, what's great about this question is that the question sender Zubin says, and this is a quote, "Me, my sister, and a lot of our friends and cousins just can't count beyond 20 or 30 in our native languages and tend to use the English terms for numbers beyond that."
So it becomes very difficult, and as you get older, maybe your memory just starts to drift away.
Tom:
Yeah.
Bob:
Like, what is 72? And I have no idea. So that's all different names from 20 to 100.
Verity:
Wow.
Tom:
Thanks, KJ, for this question.
In the early days of mobile phones, why did support staff often ask callers to remove their SIM card and wipe it with a soft cloth – even when it was unlikely that the SIM was the problem?
I'll say that again.
In the early days of mobile phones, why did support staff often ask callers to remove their SIM card and wipe it with a soft cloth – even when it was unlikely that the SIM was the problem?
Verity:
For soft cloth sales.
SFX:
(others laughing)
Verity:
They're like, "We gotta boost these numbers."
SFX:
(laughter continues)
Bob:
I know this is a quick tangent, but I know Apple sells a cloth on their website, and every time a new device comes out, that says, "Yes, this cloth is compatible with the new iPhone." And I'm like, I am thankful they told me that, because I would have no idea.
Tom:
I think they also sell one display that that cloth is not compatible with.
Bob:
That's correct, yeah. I've seen that. (laughs) You know, I worked in tech support—
Tom:
And also, if my display isn't compatible with whatever window-cleaning thing and my— and cloth I'm putting on it, I don't want that display.
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Bob:
I've worked in tech support before, and I know there's silly things you have to go through, a checklist of items to make sure, you verify that, yes, you did this, this is not the problem. But removing a SIM— Are they removing the SIM card while on the call?
Tom:
That would be difficult, but it's also the early days of mobile phones.
Bob:
Okay.
Tom:
So they could be calling on a landline.
Bob:
Oh, that's right. That's right.
Tom:
To debug the phone.
Rosalie:
Was it just to— Is it just to kind of waste time, and they didn't really know, and it was just to look? It's like, take— turn it on and off again, and just give it a go. Something— Is it kind of like a placebo effect, and then it makes them think that...
Bob:
Ohh.
Rosalie:
their phone is gonna work again?
Tom:
I'd keep thinking along those lines, yes.
Verity:
Ooh.
Tom:
It's not a placebo effect.
Bob:
Okay.
Tom:
But turning it off and on again is quite important here.
Bob:
I feel like those older phones took a long time to connect and power on. They were built sturdy. But even the early technologies, those phones take a while to maybe connect to a tower, or there may not have been enough towers nearby to connect at that time, so it took longer to possibly get reception.
Tom:
Yeah, it would be a pain to turn it off and on again.
Bob:
It would be a pain.
Verity:
So is it to make it feel like turning it off and on again, and by taking the SIM card out makes you feel like I've definitely done an action? is it to make you feel more satisfied that it's off, I've given it a little rub, I'm putting it back in.
Tom:
Almost.
Verity:
Ooh.
Rosalie:
Is it similar to something that people used to have before, and it was like a kind of a method that people used to do for records or something that... and it was, like, help people move on to new technology?
Tom:
You've got most of the elements here. It is not to make the customer feel better.
Bob:
Is it just a way for them to sell more phones?
Tom:
Oh, no. Not at all.
Bob:
(laughs) I was like...
Tom:
Bob, you said you've worked in tech support.
Bob:
I have.
Tom:
Do you trust the people on those calls?
Bob:
Hmm, how much time do we have on this podcast?
SFX:
(both laugh heartily)
Bob:
I mean, I was front-facing support when I worked in a mobile store in a mall. So I was doing real-time support in person.
Tom:
Okay.
Bob:
Yeah, so a lot of times, if a SIM card wasn't working, we would just activate a new SIM card and put it in the phone, or if we needed to transfer data to another phone, we would do that, but... this was like, I worked in like 2010, 2011. So this was way before then. But you said it doesn't make the customer happy. Is that what you said?
Tom:
No, they won't feel better about this.
Bob:
Oh, they won't feel better about it, okay.
Verity:
But will the person on the other end feel better? 'Cause it's like, "Can you give me a minute to work out what's wrong?" Like Rosalie said.
Tom:
(cackles)
Verity:
That it's like... it's to buy a bit of time.
Tom:
That's not the motivation. But you're right, it will make the operator, the support person... more confident.
Rosalie:
Is it 'cause none of them knew what they were doing?
SFX:
(Bob and Tom laugh)
Rosalie:
And that they were just like...
Tom:
The callers don't know what they're doing, certainly.
Rosalie:
Yeah.
Verity:
Yes, it's like, if you can rub it with a cloth, you clearly know what I'm talking about when I say SIM card.
Rosalie:
Yes!
Verity:
It's like proof of them knowing what's going on.
Tom:
It's proof of something.
Verity:
Ugh.
Tom:
What's involved in taking that SIM card out and giving it a wipe? You have to do one thing.
Bob:
You've gotta power off the phone, pop the back piece off—
Tom:
Yeah. You've gotta power off the phone.
Bob:
Oh.
Verity:
So it's to prove that the phone is off.
Tom:
It's to prove that the caller has actually turned the phone off and on again.
Verity:
Oh, because that's usually what would solve it.
Tom:
Because 90% of the time, that's gonna solve it, and the operator's gonna go, "Have you turned it off and on again?"
And the caller is gonna say, "Yes, of course I have. Do you think I'm an idiot?" When actually, no, they haven't. They're sure that they haven't.
If on the other hand, the operator says, "Can you take the SIM card out and give it a wipe?"
"Yeah, absolutely, let me just turn the phone off." So the operator can be certain that the phone has actually been turned off and on again.
Verity, whenever you're ready.
Verity:
Great.
This question has been sent in by Seth Campbell.
Picasso, Dalí, Warhol, and Rembrandt rank along the most stolen artists in history. Second place on that list belongs to the American painter Nick Lawrence, with 557 paintings taken. What makes his case different from the others?
Picasso, Dalí, Warhol, and Rembrandt rank among the most stolen artists in history. Second place on that list belongs to the American painter Nick Lawrence, with 557 paintings taken. What makes his case different from the others?
Rosalie:
Is it that they don't look like paintings, and they're like weird... They're like bag sculptures, and people just think they're rubbish or something?
Verity:
Yeah, one of those, like, it's all fruit, and he's like, "My art!"
Rosalie:
Yeah, it's like, "What did you just say?"
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Tom:
Is it that people see his name and think it's an instruction? You nick Lawrence.
SFX:
(Rosalie and Verity guffaw)
Bob:
Ohh, that's good.
Tom:
I, for a brief moment as I said that, I was like, "This had better not be the answer."
Verity:
Yeah.
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Verity:
Thought it was the Tingler. It was one of those instructions again, of like, nick this, and then take the coward's exit.
Rosalie:
(laughs) The coward's exit is such a funny phrase.
Tom:
(chuckles)
Rosalie:
Is it that they were intended to be stolen? That that's the... That was what his artist's journey was, that they're meant to end up in different hands, in a kind of Banksy-esque way?
Verity:
No, it's not intentional. He will have been peeved about this.
Bob:
I always try to think, if it's not the traditional sense of a painting, I don't know if it's a— something more digital. If it's something different than what, you know, the classic artist actually had physical work, someone in holding it in their hands and stealing it, versus this is more like using a blockchain to steal something.
Tom:
"You wouldn't steal a painting".
Bob:
(laughs)
Verity:
It's just downloading someone's JPEG of their NFT.
Bob:
Yeah, yeah.
Tom:
Yeah.
Verity:
Yeah, yeah. No, it's not that. It is physical work.
Bob:
Physical work, okay.
Tom:
That's amazing. NFT jokes now seem old hat. Isn't that wonderful?
Verity:
Yeah.
Rosalie:
(chuckles)
Bob:
The world is healing.
Verity:
I very rarely get employed to give my opinion on the state of the art world, and the two times I have, one was about NFTs, where I was like...
Tom:
Oh.
Verity:
"This is nonsense, it's going nowhere," whatever, and the next week, the Beeple sold for a billion or whatever, however much it sold. And the other one was during lockdown for that app called Clubhouse, and I was like, "This is the future of social media. This is gonna last forever." So now I don't get asked to do those kinds of articles anymore.
Tom:
(laughs heartily)
Verity:
But no, not NFTs.
Bob:
Huh.
Verity:
Have you heard of him?
Rosalie:
No.
Bob:
I haven't heard, no.
Rosalie:
Is he a—
Tom:
I don't think so.
Rosalie:
Does he copy— He copies— He— They're copies maybe that are stolen? They're fakes?
Verity:
They're not fakes.
Tom:
557 is a lot of paintings. I know I said that's a ridiculous thing to say.
Bob:
Yeah.
Tom:
But that feels like more paintings than a lot of painters would sell.
Verity:
Yeah.
Tom:
That's prolific.
Verity:
More than some painters would make.
Rosalie:
(laughs)
Tom:
Yeah.
Bob:
That's a lot, yeah.
Verity:
More than some painters should make. (snickers)
Tom:
(laughs)
Bob:
You were saying something unique about this theft of paintings. So I'm trying to think... was it the actual process in how people stole these paintings? I don't know if maybe back then... the people who stole the paintings maybe impersonated someone else, whether that's possibly, like, if they're in a museum, or if they're like a police officer, and they're trying to investigate, and then they steal something. Is it the actual process of how someone went and stole these 500+ paintings was different?
Tom:
They were all stolen at the same time.
Verity:
They were all stolen at the same time.
Tom:
Oh, no!
Verity:
Is that it?
Tom:
I didn't think that was— Oh!
Verity:
They were all, almost all of them were stolen at the same time. Bob, you were so right about the— It was the method in which they were stolen.
So yes, he's not a household name. So he's on this list with these hugely famous artists. But basically the American painter Nick Lawrence appears on these lists for the most stolen artworks, not because thieves repeatedly try to steal his work over and over again because they're fundamentally valuable, but because an entire collection disappeared at once.
SFX:
(guessers gasp)
Verity:
In 2004, hundreds of his paintings were being prepared for exhibition, and they were reportedly moved to an unsecured storage shed after a fire code issue was raised.
Tom:
Ohh.
Verity:
And they were subsequently stolen in a single large theft. So he is second in the list to Picasso, who is number one, with 1,147 paintings gone.
Bob:
Ohhh.
Tom:
What?
Verity:
But people are nicking those because they're Picassos, whereas Nick Lawrence basically got unlucky.
Tom:
Is that the same painting multiple times, or did Picasso just have that many paintings?
Verity:
Some of them will be. Picasso did churn it out.
SFX:
(guessers laugh in turn)
Verity:
He— And then— And at one point, he was a suspect for the theft of the Mona Lisa, Picasso. They thought he might've done it for a bit. Wow!
Bob:
Yeah.
Verity:
But, yeah, so he's— Nick Lawrence is number two on the list, just because he had one fell swoop of bad luck.
Tom:
So we just have the question from the top of the show.
Thank you to Josh for sending this in.
What kind of hairstyle is a tellum?
Anyone wanna take a guess?
Bob:
I wonder if it's not a human hairstyle. Maybe it's for, like, a poodle.
SFX:
(Bob and Tom laugh)
Verity:
Does it physically tell people something? Is it, what— It's a "tell 'em" if you get "I love you" shaved into the back of your head or...
Bob:
Ohhh.
Rosalie:
(laughs) Like a "tell 'em".
Tom:
(laughs)
Verity:
Tell 'em.
Bob:
Is it a classic hairstyle, people are still doing it today? Or is it something more that was done in the past?
Tom:
I don't think you're gonna see many tellums around today. My notes say that this was associated with emo and alternative fashion in the 2000s.
Verity:
Oh.
Rosalie:
Oh?
Bob:
Oh?
Verity:
Is it like a... curtains situation?
Tom:
Yeah, it'd be like that, yeah. It'd be... exaggerated fringe, long front section.
Verity:
And is it named tellum after a band, like a song, or a...
Tom:
It's named 'tellum' after another hairstyle.
Bob:
Oh, mullet.
Verity:
It's a backwards hairstyle!
Tom:
It's a backwards mullet!
SFX:
(guests cheering)
Tom:
There we go!
Bob:
We did it! (giggles)
Tom:
Thank you very much to our players. Where can people find you? What's going on in your lives?
We will start with Verity.
Verity:
Yep, so you can find me at VerityBabsArt on Instagram, and also searching Verity Babbs, but also searching "Art Laughs" for the art-themed comedy gigs, and The History of Art in One Sentence for the book.
Tom:
Rosalie.
Rosalie:
Thanks so much for having me. You can find me on Instagram at RosalieMinnitt, and I'm currently on tour, so please do come and see my show.
Tom:
And Bob.
Bob:
You can find me on the socials at @BuzzerBob. If you wanna catch all the latest hot game show news, buzzerblog.com.
Tom:
And if you want to know more about this show, you can do that at lateralcast.com, where you can also send in your own ideas for questions and join the Lateral Producer's Club. We are @lateralcast basically everywhere, and there are full video episodes every week on Spotify.
Thank you very much to Bob Hagh.
Bob:
Thanks for having me!
Tom:
To Verity Babbs.
Verity:
Ta.
Tom:
And Rosalie Minnett.
Rosalie:
Thank you!
Tom:
I've been Tom Scott, and that's been Lateral.
Episode Credits
| HOST | Tom Scott |
| QUESTION PRODUCER | David Bodycombe |
| EDITED BY | Julie Hassett at The Podcast Studios, Dublin |
| MUSIC | Karl-Ola Kjellholm ('Private Detective'/'Agrumes', courtesy of epidemicsound.com) |
| ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS | Josh, Lily, Seth Campbell, Zubin Nair Haider, Isabel McCracken, Kyle Chapman, KJ |
| FORMAT | Pad 26 Limited/Labyrinth Games Ltd |
| EXECUTIVE PRODUCERS | David Bodycombe and Tom Scott |